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CATHERINE WINTER: The casinos on Minnesota's Indian reservations are one of the most dramatic things to hit rural Minnesota in this century. Casinos have transformed reservations and nearby towns, bringing prosperity to some of the most impoverished places in the state. But they're also the focus of heated debate. Some Minnesotans oppose gambling in any form, while others want a piece of the pie that Indian tribes now have.

We'll spend the next two hours talking about Casino gambling on Minnesota's Indian reservations. We'll hear from members of the Indian tribes that run the casinos. We'll join a group of gamblers on a bus trip to Jackpot Junction. And we'll try to answer the question, why has this happened in Minnesota. Today's broadcast will include a new Minnesota Public Radio documentary entitled The New Buffalo.

With me here at Grand Casino Mille Lacs is Main Street Radio reporter Rachel Reabe. We're also pleased to have Leonard Prescott joining us from Washington, DC. Leonard Prescott is the chairman of Little Six Incorporated which runs the Mystic Lake Casino in Prior Lake. He's also former chair of the National Indian Gaming Association and former chairman of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Dakota tribe.

Leonard Prescott is in Washington today for a meeting and joins us by satellite. Also, with us this morning from Saint Paul is State Senator Charlie Berg of Chokio. Senator Berg chairs the Minnesota Senate Gaming Regulation Committee and joins us by satellite from our Saint Paul studios. We're also pleased to have with us here at Grand Casino, Bernita Churchill, who's an elected official with the Mille Lacs tribal government's legislative branch, and Doug Twait, who's commissioner of corporate affairs for the Mille Lacs Band of Chippewa. Glad to have you both here.

DOUG TWAIT: Good morning.

BERNITA CHURCHILL: Good morning.

CATHERINE WINTER: We'll be talking with all of our guests shortly. But let's begin by taking a look at how Casino gambling came to be in Minnesota. Minnesota Indian casinos took an estimated $300 million in last year more than in any other state. One reason tribal casinos are doing so well is that Minnesotans love to gamble. But another reason is that it's unusual for state governments to work cooperatively with Indian tribes to the extent that Minnesota's tribes and state government have cooperated.

That cooperation helped Minnesota get a head start on the casino business. Main Street Radio's Mark Steil reports.

MARK STEIL: During 1990 and part of '91, Minnesota was the only state offering widespread Indian casino gaming. Since then, the number of casinos in other states has increased rapidly, but none have overcome Minnesota's early lead. The gambling boom was touched off by federal legislation in 1988, which allowed Casino gaming on reservations.

Many tribes around the country, including Minnesota, were operating high stakes bingo halls at the time and were eager to expand. When Congress acted, tribes began pushing for casinos.

BILL THOMPSON: We had 30, 31 states with Indian reservations. And so it could have blossomed in any of these.

MARK STEIL: Bill Thompson is Professor of Public Administration at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

BILL THOMPSON: There was a window of opportunity with the act, and the Minnesota Indians stepped to the plate. And they took a swing and they were given three swings at the plate. And, by the time the third ball was pitched, they hit a home run.

MARK STEIL: The Minnesota tribes had studied the new law. And, as soon as it was signed, they were ready to begin the regulatory process, which would lead to casinos. Jody Goodthunder is chairman of the Lower Sioux Indian community near Morton in Southwest Minnesota, home of the Jackpot Junction Casino. Goodthunder says, when Congress passed the legislation, Minnesota Indians felt a historic opportunity had arrived.

JODY GOODTHUNDER: The leaders knew that this was a great chance for the tribes to become economically successful. The longer we waited, the more opportunities we were going to be losing.

MARK STEIL: The federal legislation required the tribes and state government to negotiate gaming compacts, spelling out how the casinos would operate. The compact negotiations were a critical step leading to Minnesota's dominant role in tribal gaming. The tribes approached state government leaders in early 1989, requesting the start of compact talks, which led first to video gaming and later to blackjack. State representative Becky Kelso remembers there was concern about expanding gambling, but also a feeling there was no choice.

BEKCY KELSO: We accepted at the time that we could not avoid extending gaming rights to Indian tribes, that if we did not negotiate these compacts, that certainly our tribes would take it to court, and we would have it done in the federal courts rather than at the state level. And it was our desire to keep it at the state level.

MARK STEIL: Kelso and two others were appointed in July 1989 by then Governor Rudy Perpich to negotiate compacts with the state's tribes. Indians were hoping for a quick conclusion to the talks, but Jody Goodthunder remembers the job looked overwhelming. 11 tribes, each a sovereign nation, negotiating separate deals with the state of Minnesota.

He says the tribes solved the problem by agreeing to basically negotiate one compact, which then would be used as the model for the individual state tribe agreements. He says it was a historic moment of unity for the Ojibwe and Dakota tribes in the state.

JODY GOODTHUNDER: Yes, it was one of the first times that all of the 11 tribes within Minnesota got together and focused on one issue, which was for the betterment of all tribes in the state of Minnesota.

MARK STEIL: The first compact signed received federal approval in March of 1990, and casino gambling was underway in Minnesota. The jump Minnesota Indians got on the rest of the nation can be seen in the number of compacts approved that year. 13 were signed by the Secretary of the Interior. 9 were for Minnesota tribes. One each went to South Dakota, Nebraska, Nevada, and California. Bill Thompson of UNLV.

BILL THOMPSON: Minnesota's the number one Indian gaming state in the nation. It happened there because the governor said, hey, I'm not fighting it anymore. I think the governor also interpreted Indian gaming as a win-win game, that it wins for the people of Minnesota. It wins for the Indian population.

MARK STEIL: What initially took a few months in Minnesota has dragged on for years in other parts of the country, many states have refused to negotiate compacts with Indian tribes. And officials on both sides of the question expect it eventually will be decided by the Supreme Court. One of the sharpest disputes is in Arizona, where the state is trying to end Indian casino gaming.

Jan Morris, tribal prosecutor for the Fort McDowell Mojave Apache Indian community, says the dispute there continues years of bad relations between Indians and state government.

JAN MORRIS: Approximately, one fourth of the land base of Arizona is Indian reservations. And so, you know, out of necessity, the state has had to deal with the tribes. But I don't believe that they've always done so fairly and openly. And I still don't believe that that's being done today. And I think this gaming issue is a prime example of that.

MARK STEIL: In Wisconsin, the future of Indian casinos is now in doubt after voters decided to limit what sorts of gaming will be legal. In Michigan, Indians began working on casino gaming as soon as the Minnesota tribes. But the issue went to court where it's still tied up. Indians have usually won in court, but a more significant problem could be Congress, where efforts are underway to restrict Indian casino gaming by amending the 1988 law.

Jody Goodthunder says the nation's governors are leading the effort.

JODY GOODTHUNDER: Right now, the Secretary of the interior, Mr Babbitt, he's an ex-governor and also our president. He is an ex-governor. So I'm not saying it's going to make any difference, but I wouldn't bet against it.

MARK STEIL: Despite the political connections, Bill Thompson says he doubts the effort will be successful.

BILL THOMPSON: Indian gaming is the only economic development tool that Indian populations have had in this country since Columbus arrived, and it would fly in the face of everything Clinton stands for if he now worked with state politicians and slapped the Indians down.

MARK STEIL: Tribal leaders in Minnesota and around the country are counting on Clinton's push for economic development to outweigh state claims that expanded Indian gaming is bad social policy. Hawaii Senator, Daniel Inouye, plans to hold hearings on the issue starting next month. This is Mark Steil, Main Street Radio.

CATHERINE WINTER: And you're listening to a live broadcast from Grand Casino. I'd like to turn to Leonard Prescott and ask Leonard, as the former chair of the National Indian Gaming association, I wonder if you have any theories as to why Indian Gaming has been so much more successful in Minnesota than it has been in other states.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: I think that what happened in Minnesota was really, I think, nationally, people were looking at issues like organized crime, disorganized crime, integrity of games, and those kind of things. And we knew that they were going to be the major issues there. And we start to get the foundational issues covered in Minnesota. And so we went to our representatives, and we looked at whether there was any criminal activity taking place on the reservation, and there weren't. And also to the representatives in the area, the state senators, some of those areas, to point out the economic benefit that Indian reservations were contributing.

And it wasn't an easy thing to do. The governor originally was opposed to it when bingo first started. He said he was going to blow the Indians out of the water at one time. So it was really an educational process that had taken place in Minnesota that really showed the state of Minnesota and the legislators and the people, that the Indian Gaming is not only good for the reservations, but it's also good for the state in terms of the job development and some of the economic activity taking place.

CATHERINE WINTER: Senator Berg, do you wish that Minnesota had fought harder against Indian casinos?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, we really didn't have any choice. I don't believe at the time the Federal Indian Gaming Act had passed. And it was clear that Indian casinos were going to be established and operated. And I think it was a feeling we had no choice but to go along with them.

CATHERINE WINTER: Leonard Prescott, I wonder if you ever here in your position or your former position where you were working nationally with tribes all over the country, is there any resentment of tribes in Minnesota and their success? Is there a widespread belief now that all Indians everywhere are rich, and therefore, no longer need federal money or grant money? Is that a problem?

LEONARD PRESCOTT: I think there's that misconception, maybe even in the state. I think you need to look at reservations and where they are, where they're located. For instance, Mystic Lake, close to the Twin City area, is going to have a much greater participation in their businesses. Some of the tribes like Red Lake, they have maybe three casinos, and it sounds like a lot of casinos. But on the other hand, it will probably take them three years to pay for them.

They only have 250 machines in one, and 250 machines in another. And then the 250 machines in the other. So that's three of them.

CATHERINE WINTER: Quite a lot of band members as well, quite a lot of people who live there.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: Exactly, 8,000 members and thousands of acres of infrastructure to develop.

CATHERINE WINTER: Well, let's move on. I've just noticed another tour bus pulling by, so why don't we go on and talk about the fact that, every day, dozens of those buses crisscross Minnesota picking up gamblers and delivering them to casinos. The casino-operated buses offer free or low cost rides. Many of them serve coffee and pastries, and bus hosts lead passengers in games of bingo to get those gambling juices flowing. Reporter Dan Olson rode the bus to Jackpot Junction near Morton in Southwestern Minnesota.

DAN OLSON: Gamblers traveling to Jackpot Junction step into a gleaming motorcoach parked at a strip mall in Eden Prairie. 68-year-old Irv Sonstegard sitting next to Muriel, his wife, is clear about his motive for the trip.

IRV SONSTEGARD: Well, I suppose if I want to be completely candid, I'd have to say it's greed. You know? You always think you're going to win.

DAN OLSON: Chris Perez, seated in front of Irv and Muriel, says some Casino gamblers are shy about revealing their true motives. They cite the casino food or the friendly people on the bus as the reason for the trip.

CHRIS PEREZ: The money involved almost, almost becomes secondary.

DAN OLSON: The 45-passenger motor coach has 26 riders on a rainy spring weekday. The bus rolls along Highway 212 through flat Minnesota farm country, slowing almost imperceptibly as it passes through Glencoe, Stewart, and Buffalo Lake. Camped in the back of the bus just above the whining diesel engine are a band of self-proclaimed rowdies.

SPEAKER: Oh, no, no. We've never been to a gambling place before in our lives.

SPEAKER: Lee, she is a liar.

DAN OLSON: This foursome, three middle-aged women and a young man, lob good-natured taunts at Ed, the bus tour host. Ed Simon's job is to entertain the riders. Minutes after the bus is rolling, Ed conducts the first of many drawings for prizes ranging from money clips and key chains to free lodging for weekend gambling excursions.

ED SIMON: It's a two-hour bus ride. But if you keep everybody entertained, and they all have fun, and the ride doesn't seem as long, and they're more likely to come back if they're not dreading the ride back and forth.

DAN OLSON: Bus rider bingo starts wearing thin just past Olivia, and there's still about a half an hour to go. For one of the rowdies in the back of the bus, the bingo doesn't compare with the thrill of the casino.

OLIVIA: There's something about them coins. When you hear them, when you walk in the door dropping, it just does something to you.

DAN OLSON: The genius of slot machines is not in the high technology video displays which bathe the player's face in a ghostly light. The genius of slots, as the roadie says, is the sound of the payoff.

[COINS CLINKING]

The cascade of coins into a steel pan turns the head of even the most intense slot player. A tour led by Jackpot Junction's Jean Lidbeck reveals the state of the art.

JEAN LIDBECK: These are brand new blackjack video games, and these here too are popular, very popular since we got these in. You can't hardly get a seat on a weekend here.

DAN OLSON: The bus crowd from Eden Prairie has disappeared into the Jackpot jungle. A dozen motor coaches have brought gamblers from hundreds of miles around. Betty Kellogg is taking her lunch break after a four and a half hour bus ride from Charles City, Iowa. The lure of jackpot beats the alternative on a rainy afternoon.

BETTY KELLOGG: Probably watching television and maybe sleeping in a big chair or taking a nap in the afternoon, whatever.

DAN OLSON: Betty's husband sits quietly at lunch. Their marriage perfectly balanced.

BETTY KELLOGG: My winnings in gambling probably have financed my husband's gambling ways because, unfortunately, he plays all of the money back that he wins.

SPEAKER: Hey, Ken, do you have the recording "Heartbreak Hotel?" We need to play that on the way back.

DAN OLSON: After six hours of gambling, the 26 jackpot express adventure settle in for the return trip to Eden Prairie. Chris Perez is smiling after a successful day at the blackjack table.

CHRIS PEREZ: And the slot machines are nice to me.

DAN OLSON: A beaming Irv Sonstegard seated behind Perez is simply full of himself as he reveals the sum he won at the blackjack table and gets a quick reminder from Muriel, his wife, to button his lip lest the IRS be listening.

IRV SONSTEGARD: I'm not supposed to tell you that? Cut that out. Well, I'm not telling my name. My last name is Perez. [LAUGHS]

DAN OLSON: In the back, the rowdies are subdued, but not defeated. It was not a big day for winning. But to borrow from the bumper sticker--

SPEAKER: Bad day of gambling is still better than a day at home on a gloomy day like this.

SPEAKER: Scrubbing floors, babysitting, you know, waiting on the husband hand and foot.

SPEAKER: And watching soap operas.

DAN OLSON: For bus bingo, more drawings for key chains. And finally, 10 hours after departure, four hours riding, six hours gambling, host Ed Simon bids farewell to the riders of the Jackpot Express.

ED SIMON: And we hope to see you real soon. I hope everybody had fun, whether they won or lost.

DAN OLSON: I'm Dan Olson, Minnesota Public Radio.

CATHERINE WINTER: And we're back at Grand Casino Mille Lacs. Let's go now to Main Street radio reporter, Rachel Reabe, who's out on the casino floor talking with a blackjack dealer.

RACHEL REABE: Yes, I am on the floor of the Grand Casino Mille Lacs, and I'm here at Blackjack School. Lewis Miller, who has been a blackjack dealer at Grand Casino Mille Lacs for two years now, spends a little of his time teaching people how to play blackjack. How does the school work, Lewis?

LEWIS MILLER: OK, Rachel, like these five ladies we have here today. They come up, we give them their name tags. They sit down, doesn't cost anything. And we go through the whole game of blackjack with them. We don't really get in to basic strategy, but we go through the whole game. When they leave this table, they should be able to play blackjack in any casino.

RACHEL REABE: Lewis, there are 48 blackjack tables at the Mille Lacs Casino compared to 1,100 slot machines. So there's a lot more slot machine playing than blackjack playing. Is that because people are intimidated? You don't have to know how to play a slot machine. If you can put the nickel in or the quarter in, you can do it.

LEWIS MILLER: That could be. I think probably sometimes a person might be intimidated. But on the other hand, a lot of other people like the personal touch of having a dealer. And we have some machines here in the carousel that are the same thing. If you don't like a dealer, you can play blackjack. It's basically the same thing as having a dealer. It's almost the same thing.

The intimidation part of it. We're all pretty friendly. We shouldn't be intimidating anybody, you know. And it's your own money you're betting too.

RACHEL REABE: Lewis, you've been dealing blackjack for two years. Is it quite obvious to you when somebody sits down at your table the level of blackjack they've played? How can you tell?

LEWIS MILLER: Well, when they ask for their hits or deny a hit, it's pretty obvious they don't-- really don't know what to hit or what not to hit by looking at what the dealer has. That's why it's really important that a person gets a book or takes one of these classes before they ever start playing.

RACHEL REABE: Lewis, how do you do kind of put people in categories when they're playing at your table? Do you have the beginners, the experts, the very intense gamblers? How do you divide them up?

LEWIS MILLER: Well, we don't divide them. By their method of play. They do that by themselves. You know, we don't say, hey, you're a beginner, you're this and you're that. They come and play. The beginners will usually go to the smaller tables like a $3 table. We have them up to $25 minimum, sometimes $100 minimum table. And you're better players usually bet more money. If you was going to split them up, I would say probably because of that reason how much money they're betting.

RACHEL REABE: Lewis, some of the people here are very serious gamblers that might spend a long period of time here that they're coming here. This is work for them at the table. This isn't just some one-hour or two-hour diversion. Have you seen people sit at a blackjack table for hours?

LEWIS MILLER: Yes, I've had them sit at my table all day long. And I have had them that's been there all night and then sit at my table for a while during the day. Yes, I have seen that.

RACHEL REABE: How much money have you seen somebody go through at a blackjack table during one of your stints on as a dealer? How much money might they have passed through?

LEWIS MILLER: In most cases, most of them, I would say $100 or $200. I have seen as much. I don't play the high stakes a lot, but I have seen as much as like $1,200, $1,400 lost, you're saying, or won. You see that amount get one a lot of times too.

RACHEL REABE: Lewis, do you ever just stop and say, man, don't you think it's time to fold them?

LEWIS MILLER: Well, we can't do that. But if the floor people see it-- our floor people, they're here all the time. If a person does have a problem, they're watching for that. And if I can see someone's having a problem there, yes, I would call the floor person and let them talk to them. We don't want any-- we don't want that kind of thing, you know. But the floor people would handle something like that.

RACHEL REABE: I've been talking to Lewis Miller, who's a blackjack dealer at Grand Casino Mille Lacs. I'm Rachel Reabe. Now, back to Catherine at our anchor table.

CATHERINE WINTER: About half of Minnesotans gamble. Those who do are mostly dabblers, waging a dollar here or a few dollars there. But some people gamble enormous sums of money and can't seem to stop. Experts are struggling to get a handle on what's being called the addiction of the '90s. Rachel Reabe has that story.

RACHEL REABE: Sue [? Schavey ?] a bright, articulate 27-year-old is locked behind a series of massive metal doors at a women's prison in Roseville. She is serving time for embezzling $41,000 from her employer to support her gambling habit.

[? SUE SCHAVEY: ?] It is a real life sickness. It can progress at such a rapid rate. And that it can totally change a person and take a normal, honest person with values and turn them into a common criminal. And it can happen fast, and it can happen without anyone around them knowing.

RACHEL REABE: [? Schavey's ?] downward spiral into compulsive gambling started in high school playing bingo at a local VFW club. From there, she moved to pull tabs and eventually to the video slot machines at the Little Six Casino in Shakopee. When she exhausted her savings and maxed out credit card limits, [? Schavey ?] started taking money from the bank where she was head teller. She says finally getting caught was a relief.

[? SUE SCHAVEY: ?] I would rather be sitting in jail than be where the state of mind I was in that two-month period when I was taking money because there is no worse hell. That was sheer hell for me. I mean, I was so sick and so unhappy. It had taken over my life entirely.

RACHEL REABE: Compulsive gambling was a problem in Minnesota long before pull-tabs, the state lottery, and Indian gaming were legalized in the 1980s. But the easy accessibility of legalized gambling is making a bad situation even worse according to Betty George of the Minnesota Council on Compulsive Gambling.

BETTY GEORGE: We're just getting to what many consider to be the tip of the iceberg. All of the elements are there for the corresponding explosion of compulsive gamblers coming forth to correlate with the earlier explosion of gaming in Minnesota.

RACHEL REABE: George says Minnesota leads the nation in treatment efforts for compulsive gamblers. There are eight outpatient treatment programs and some 40 Gamblers Anonymous groups in the state. A pair of gambling hotlines receive around 600 calls a month. But insurance companies, according to George, have been reluctant to fund treatment. And many compulsive gamblers don't seek help until they've hit rock bottom.

Twin Cities psychologist, Lynn Rambach, who specializes in the treatment of compulsive gamblers, estimates that less than 200 are currently being treated in Minnesota, a tiny percentage compared to the estimated 50,000 pathological gamblers in the state.

LYNN RAMBACH: The concept of us getting addicted to the attainment of money certainly is very popular in this society. So the very fact that individuals try to get that big win, we want to win the lottery, we want to get the progressive jackpot, you know, it brings us kind of an instant celebrity sense, an instant sense of status that goes with having money.

RACHEL REABE: Adolescents are at four times the risk of adults for becoming problem gamblers. Senior citizens are another risk group. Rambach says problem gamblers generally suffer from low self-esteem and use gambling as a diversion from the unmet needs in their lives.

LYNN RAMBACH: Women tend to gamble as a way of avoiding some pain, in most cases, related to relationships. For men, it's a more personalized pain related to their own expectations about how their life should be going in their own sense of achievement.

RACHEL REABE: Experts say the shorter the time between wager and payoff, the more addictive the form of gambling. Video slot machines, the kind that fill Minnesota's Indian-run casinos and could eventually be in bars, are considered to be highly addictive, almost hypnotic for problem gamblers. The Minnesota Indian Gaming Association says they're concerned about compulsive gamblers.

This year, they've donated $100,000 to the Minnesota Council on Compulsive Gambling for preventative education, casino employee training, and treatment and rehabilitation of problem gamblers. The 800 number for problem gamblers is posted in most of the casinos. And yet, casino management is quick to point out that the vast majority of their gamblers are just there to have fun. Ron Hagelin, vice president at Grand Casino Mille Lacs.

RON HAGELIN: Our view here is not to spend time on potentially the 3% that come here and may be expressing their personal problems through our venue. It's on delighting the customer that comes here for recreational purposes. So that's where our focus is, quite honestly.

RACHEL REABE: But statistics indicate that the recreational gambler doesn't spend much money. On the average, less than $13 a month. The casinos, like the rest of the gambling industry, are dependent to some extent on the big rollers, the small percentage of gamblers who spend enormous amounts of money. Dr. Will Craig of the University of Minnesota's Center for Urban and Regional Affairs says a recent survey indicates that 2% of the state's gamblers are betting $1,000 a month or more.

WILL CRAIG: In terms of the gambling industry in Minnesota, there are a few people who are betting enough money that they're keeping the whole system going. And I think I calculated that it's something like 1% of the gamblers are betting half the money, which I think is an incredible statistic. So that I would think that the gambling industry is probably not all that keen, despite any lip service they might give, on trying to control the total amount of money anybody bets.

RACHEL REABE: The extent of compulsive gambling in Minnesota is still not known. The several surveys that have been taken indicate that at least 1.5% of the state's residents are problem gamblers, and that number could be closer to 5%. I'm Rachel Reabe, Main Street radio.

CATHERINE WINTER: You're listening to a live Main Street Radio broadcast from Grand Casino Mille Lacs. I'd like to ask some of our panelists to respond to that story. It makes a pretty serious allegation and suggests that, to some extent, the gambling industry in Minnesota is dependent on problem gamblers, compulsive gamblers. I guess I'd like to hear from Leonard Prescott, who works for Little Six. And I'd also like to bring into the discussion Doug Twait and Bernita Churchill, who are here with the Mille Lacs band. Who would like to start? Doug Twait.

DOUG TWAIT: Compulsive gambling is a very serious problem that we take very seriously. Any time that we're in an industry that benefits from gambling, we have a vital social responsibility to make sure that we have programs and policies in place to make sure that we can intervene where there are problem gamblers and get those individuals to places where they can be helped. I think we're doing a very good job of that now. We need to continue to do a good job, and I think we need to improve at that into the future.

CATHERINE WINTER: If there were no problem gamblers, if nobody were coming in here betting money that they maybe shouldn't bet, would the casinos be able to be the some $300 or $500-million industry that they are? Is it not true that the casinos rely to some extent on people who maybe shouldn't be gambling?

DOUG TWAIT: Well, I think that they need to make a distinction. Because somebody's bets a large dollar amount, that doesn't necessarily mean that that individual is a problem gambler. I think there's a difference there. And what we want to do is, if people are comfortable betting large volumes of money, we want them to have the same entertainment experience as anybody else.

But, at the same time, if somebody does have a problem, they're betting money that they really can't afford to be losing, those are the individuals where we need to intervene and find some help for them.

CATHERINE WINTER: Leonard Prescott, it sounded like, yeah, you sounded like you had something you wanted to add.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: Yes. You know, about two years ago, I think the Minneapolis Star pointed out that there were more gamblers that are going to Las Vegas than anywhere else-- I mean, from Minnesota from anywhere else. Let me get that straight. There are more gamblers going to Las Vegas than anywhere else in the United states, and they're coming from Minnesota.

So there's always been a lot of people in Minnesota that have liked to be involved in that gaming, and they spend a lot of dollars when they go to Las Vegas. Those folks now maybe don't take as many trips to Las Vegas as they originally had. So I think there are those kind of players in our businesses.

I think that the-- also, you know, we started a program at Mystic Lake, where we contribute $138,000 to on-site education of our dealers, of our floor people to recognize problem gamblers and refer them to Gambler's Choice, which is an organization that has inpatient treatment and outpatient treatment. And we recognize that there's a light side to the gambling, and there's also a dark side. And that we need to be responsible for that industry.

And so recognizing them is one of our responsibilities and one of our duties. And we will continue to monitor and pay attention to those kind of issues.

CHARLIE BERG: I think I'd like to jump into this situation.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK. Senator Charlie Berg.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, first of all, you talk about it, casino gaming being a $300-million-a-year industry, that's net. The actual gross is more like $2.5 to $3 billion a year. And so I'm not sure what you're referring to. But sure, we're creating more problem gamblers all the time. As people gamble more as they have an occasion to continue the habit or the gambling, a number more of them get hooked.

And I agree with Betty George, that we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg. I think it's going to be much higher in the years ahead.

CATHERINE WINTER: Senator Berg, what about this argument that Minnesotans have always gambled?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I think that's somewhat true. I think we've been conducive to gambling. But, you see, the greatest majority of the people in Minnesota could not or didn't have the time enough to go to Las Vegas. Now, they can jump in their cars and, within half an hour or an hour at the most, can be at a casino and experience the same type of a thrill they would at Las Vegas, except they may not be able to see a floor show.

But the casinos are offering really good meals at a cut rate, most of them. And they're offering video slot machines, blackjack, some cases paddle wheels. So they have anything there that attracts most people.

CATHERINE WINTER: So you would maintain that-- some of our panelists are shaking their heads. Are there no paddle wheels? Is that incorrect?

DOUG TWAIT: No, there's currently not a compact that governs the paddle wheels. There are no paddle wheels in Minnesota Indian casinos.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, there was at a time back. But perhaps you've taken them all out now. Because I've been to some of your casinos, where you had the Great Gamble paddle wheel out of Fargo. And if you've taken them out, then you know what's there and what isn't. But I don't think they were the most addictive type. I think the most addictive type of gambling machines are video slots.

DOUG TWAIT: Senator, the reason the paddle wheels are gone are because we've agreed, as part of the compacting process and the blackjack compact, as you're well aware, that Minnesota Indian tribes have voluntarily agreed to halt the expansion of gaming. That's why there are no paddle wheels in Minnesota Indian casinos.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, they were not a big moneymaker anyhow, Doug.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, let's not get bogged down in one small detail. We'll also have an opportunity to comment further on all of these issues later on after our documentary when we have our call in program. I hope that everyone who has something fiery on their tongue will have the opportunity to let it loose at that point.

Some Minnesota restaurant and bar owners say they have a hard time competing with the casinos on Indian reservations. Some business owners say they can't compete because they have to pay taxes the casinos don't. But casinos and their employees do pay most taxes. We looked into what taxes the casinos pay and why different rules apply to them.

[CHATTER]

It's early Friday evening and the dining room at the Golden Gate supper club near Cloquet is about half full. About a dozen people sit at the bar watching television and talking. The Golden Gate's owner, George McCausland, says the supper club used to be busier. He blames nearby reservation casinos for taking business away from him.

GEORGE MCCAUSLAND: I have Fond-du-Luth in Duluth, which is about 10 miles to the east of me. I have Big Bucks Bingo, which is about 3 and 1/2 miles to the west of me. And we have the one on Lake Vermilion, which is, what, about 50 or 60 miles north? And then, of course, Hinckley, which is about 60 miles south.

CATHERINE WINTER: McCausland believes some of his former customers are gambling away money they once might have spent on dining out. And he says the casinos can sell food at low prices because they make their money on gambling. McCausland says, last year, he brought lunch from a casino to a state Senate hearing to illustrate how hard it is for him to compete.

GEORGE MCCAUSLAND: It's the only time I've been in a casino. I went out there at 10:30 in the morning, and I bought two of their submarine sandwiches. OK? They're that long. They're that wide and at that high. There's five meats, five cheeses. She said, well, what would you like? I said, everything. A buck and a quarter a piece.

Now, if I had stayed there and eaten those sandwiches, I would have also had coleslaw and potato salad. Now, I can compete with that, but when you don't have to pay any tax?

CATHERINE WINTER: McCausland says it's not fair that he has to pay state property taxes and corporate taxes that the reservation casinos don't pay, and state law doesn't allow him to offer gambling at his bar.

GEORGE MCCAUSLAND: You can't give it to one group, and especially when that group is not paying taxes. This land is made up of competition. That's why it's always been so fruitful. And all of a sudden, we've taken it away from us. We who have paid the taxes, we who have built the highways no longer can compete.

I don't think you have to be a mathematician to figure out that you can't take all this money out of our economy, billions of dollars and take it away from the tax-paying businessman and expect him to make it. He's not going to.

CATHERINE WINTER: George McCausland can't open a casino and Indian tribes can because federal law recognizes tribes as sovereign. University of Colorado Law professor, Charles Wilkinson, says tribes are like states or counties. They can make their own laws within the laws of the United States. In Minnesota, tribal governments have decided to allow gambling on their land, while the government of Minnesota has decided not to allow casinos on its land. Wilkinson says Indian tribes have been described as domestic dependent nations.

CHARLES WILKINSON: It's not a matter of they were here first. That's not the point. The point is that tribes were operating. Governments entered into agreements, treaties with the United States that assured they would remain operating governments. And now tribes are beginning to flex their muscles a little bit.

CATHERINE WINTER: A few miles from George McCausland's supper club on a weekday afternoon, the parking lot at the Big Bucks Casino on the Fond du Lac Reservation is crowded with cars. Big bucks is small compared with the two grand casinos or Mystic Lake. But the tribe is building a larger casino closer to Interstate 35.

Bob Peacock, chair of the Fond du Lac band of Chippewa, has some potential logos for the new casino's sports bar displayed on the wall of his office. Peacock says it's not true that the Casino and its employees don't pay taxes.

BOB PEACOCK: We pay the federal tax. We pay a fee tax on Class II gaming to the federal government. We pay everything except a state tax per se on our business because we are a sovereign similar to what the state being a sovereign. The state of Minnesota does not pay us taxes, and we as a sovereign with equal standing do not pay the state taxes.

CATHERINE WINTER: The tribes themselves don't pay state taxes, but many Indian people do, Indian people who don't live on reservations. And that's the majority of Indian people pay state income taxes even on money they earn at tribal casinos. Indian people pay federal income taxes regardless of where they live, and most Indian homeowners pay property taxes.

As for the casinos, non-Indian casino management companies pay federal and state corporate taxes. Tribes don't pay corporate taxes on their share of the casino profits. But Fond du Lac chair, Bob Peacock, says, in a sense, all the money casinos make goes to pay taxes.

BOB PEACOCK: The business does pay a corporate tax, but it pays the corporate tax to the reservation, which is the government.

CATHERINE WINTER: Peacock says the tribal government uses money from the casinos for projects such as clinics and schools, just as the state uses tax money for public works. The Minnesota Indian Gaming Association says all casinos also make voluntary donations to cities or counties. For instance, the Shakopee Mdewakanton Dakota tribe gives the city of Prior Lake $40,000 a year to pay a police officer because the casino creates extra work for police.

Peacock acknowledges some businesses lose out because of competition from casinos. But he argues that casinos employ thousands of people, draw tourists, and create business for local companies.

BOB PEACOCK: When anybody else wants to do it, you know, they're welcomed with open arms. And we're doing it, and people are having a problem with it. You know, when people are talking airbus, the whole damn world jumped up and down and said, oh my god, here we go, a savior. We've done the same thing. Ours is a reality. And people are complaining about it.

CATHERINE WINTER: A State Department of Revenue study due out later this year says business is up at bars and restaurants in counties that have casinos. The report also says casinos may have saved the state $7 million in AFDC payments. And it finds that nearly 20% of the people who gamble at the casinos come from other states bringing money into Minnesota.

The issue continues to be a controversial one at the Capitol. Senator Charlie Berg, maybe you could bring us up to date about what's going on in the legislature right now.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, there isn't a great deal going on in the legislature about the casinos. The casinos are here, and there's nothing we can do in the state level to either tax them or to put them out of business. So, as far as legislation is concerning, well, there's really nothing.

CATHERINE WINTER: What about competition from-- what about the potential for video gaming in other places besides casinos?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, at the present time, there is no bill that is pending that has anything language in there proposing video gaming. The only bill that is alive right now is Senate File 103 that deals only with regulations as far as lawful gambling is concerned. But we have heard the arguments in the legislature about what the hospitality industry considers unfair competition, and most of them arguments deal with these buses hauling people from other communities into the reservations and to the casinos and being paid a bounty system for bringing people into the casinos. And they don't like that.

They also do not like the casinos using cut rate food as a kind of a loss leader to entice people into the casinos. And I've warned the Indian community about that for the last couple of years and said, the more you do this type of operations, the more you're going to raise the wrath of the hospitality industry. And it could cause you trouble down the line.

CATHERINE WINTER: Would any of our panelists-- This is Doug Twait with the Mille Lacs Band.

DOUG TWAIT: Has the hospitality industry produced any systematic studies which confirm their perception that Indian casinos are hurting their business?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, Yes. We've had gambling hearings in the senate. And I think, Doug, that you were there where the hospitality--

DOUG TWAIT: I wish they are listening to--

CHARLIE BERG: --industry came in and discussed the problems that they were having in the hospitality industry.

CATHERINE WINTER: I believe the question, and this is one I've heard before, senator, is whether there are actually any studies that confirm the perception that businesses are losing business to the Indian casinos, especially in light of the study that says that the bars and restaurants in areas where there are casinos are actually gaining.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, the testimony we've heard is from bar owners, supper club owners that say the buses are picking up the customers for the casinos right in their own doorstep and hauling them off to the casino, people that used to be potential customers of the bar, the supper club.

CATHERINE WINTER: So at least, anecdotally, we're seeing people lose out.

CHARLIE BERG: And, you know, perception. When you see your customers leaving on a bus to go someplace else, it's not hard to figure out why they feel the way they do.

DOUG TWAIT: Well, but, Senator, are you supposed to pass legislation based on perception, or should you pass legislation based on hard data?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, we haven't passed legislation dealing with it at all. But the question was, have you heard testimony about these things?

CATHERINE WINTER: The question was whether there was actually a study, whether there's been a study, a statistical analysis.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: Well, I'd like to comment--

CATHERINE WINTER: Does anybody who's--

CHARLIE BERG: It's pretty hard to come up with a statistical analysis.

CATHERINE WINTER: Leonard Prescott?

LEONARD PRESCOTT: Yes, I'd like to comment. You know, the state planning agency, they just had a recent study. And, in that study, they pointed out that 10 point-- there was an increase for revenues with the bars and restaurants of 10.7% but during 1989 and 1991 in the areas where casinos are located. Where casinos are not located, there was still an increase of 5.4% in revenue for the bars and restaurants.

I don't see that a decline in their industry. And I also like to comment on the person that said that nobody built the highways and roads or that the states did that. Well, nobody ever considered building them on reservations. And that's what this is all about, is building some infrastructure for the reservations and allowing them to get ahead. And it's not that who is here first. That's not the important thing. I agree with that.

But the Indians who have the sovereign rights are entitled or want only what they're entitled to under the federal law, which is a negotiation between the federal government, the tribal government, and an opportunity to exercise their sovereign rights.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I have nothing but--

CATHERINE WINTER: May I ask just briefly, all of the panelists. This is obviously one of the hottest, most controversial subjects relating to the casinos. And I wonder if anything is being done to try to effect better communication between these various angry groups. Is anything being done to try to, for instance, work with bar and restaurant owners so that perhaps they can see some spin off from the profits that the casinos are making?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I would like to comment on--

CATHERINE WINTER: Senator Berg.

CHARLIE BERG: --on Mystic Lake. I think Leonard Prescott and the people at Mystic Lake are doing one of the finest jobs of running their casino and distributing the proceeds to the benefit of the tribe itself of any of the casinos in the state of Minnesota. And I have nothing but respect for him.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: I appreciate that, Charlie. Thank you.

CATHERINE WINTER: How about the question, is anything being done to try to soothe these ruffled feathers? Doug Twait.

DOUG TWAIT: Here at Mille Lacs, one of the key goals that the Mille Lacs Band had in developing our casinos is we want it to be a benefit, not only for the Mille Lacs reservation, but for the region as a whole. And we're working very hard and will work with anybody who wants to work with us in seeking out mutually beneficial business relationships where the casino can work for the non-Indian business and vice versa. We're very anxious about doing those things. And I think we've done it quite a good job of that so far.

CATHERINE WINTER: So you think you do have good relations with many of the business owners in the area?

DOUG TWAIT: Yes.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: And, Catherine, I think that, you know, that people are generally-- people are generally-- OK. People are generally concerned with-- probably more concerned with the things they don't know rather than the things they do know. And I think that the concern about what they don't know, they conjure up things that maybe were taking business away. That there's organized crime. There's disorganized crime and all that.

I think that the thing is really dispelling some of that and becoming more open with our businesses and talking about the 10,000 jobs that were brought out, talking about the people coming off welfare and off the welfare rolls and going on to the tax rolls. And I think that's one of the things that has to happen. There are a lot of people out there that are ignorant about the real benefits of tribal gaming. And I think that's what we're trying to do with Minnesota Indian Gaming Association, also through Mystic Lake on a campaign to do just that, educate the public.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK. Let's move on for now. And perhaps, we can revisit some of these issues again later in the program.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I can tell you that the thing that makes the people the most angry out in rural areas is buses picking up customers in their localities and hauling them 75 miles away to a casino. It just makes the people that are involved with the supper club or bar just makes them really angry.

CATHERINE WINTER: Yes. Clearly, there's been a great deal of testimony to that effect at the Capitol. And we've talked with people who've said that, too. Let's move on. A government report last winter said American Indian tribes have lost $12 million to unscrupulous casino management and supply companies. That report was disputed by Indian Gaming advocates, but it added fuel to a debate about non-Indian gambling companies.

Most of the 200 Indian gaming facilities in the country are run by outside management firms. Some observers say tribes are vulnerable to exploitation, but others say tribes can take care of themselves. Main Street Radio's Leif Enger reports.

LEIF ENGER: When the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe decided three years ago to build a casino, it had no way of getting the big bank loan it would need and no expertise in running a casino. Tribal chief executive, Marge Anderson, says the tribe had to take on a partner. A group of outside business people formed Grand Casinos, Incorporated specifically to finance and manage the Mille Lacs band's casinos. Marge Anderson says the arrangement was a good deal for the tribe.

MARGE ANDERSON: We needed these kind of people to train our people. They're the ones that put themselves at risk on coming in here, spending all their money to do all this. And it didn't cost us a penny.

LEIF ENGER: Industry observers say, in the past few years, about 40 groups nationwide have formed casino management corporations, though fewer than half of them actually have contracts to run casinos. Grand Casinos, Incorporated based in Plymouth is one of the nation's largest and was the first to make a public stock offering a year and a half ago.

Gamblers will lose an estimated $120 million this year at Grand Casinos Mille Lacs and Hinckley. After expenses, the casinos will clear an estimated 28 million. The tribal government gets 60% of that. The other 40% or about 11 million, will go to Grand Casinos, Inc. The arrangement is within federal guidelines, but Leonard Prescott says it's unfair.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: I think they just charge too much.

LEIF ENGER: Prescott is chairman of Little Six, Incorporated, the tribe-owned company that operates Mystic Lake and Little Six casinos on the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Reservation. The Shakopee Sioux are one of the few tribes that run their own casinos. Federal law allows management companies up to 30% of profits or 40% if they've also paid for construction of the casino. But Prescott says such arrangements don't give enough weight to the fact that, in most states, including Minnesota, casinos are legal only on reservation land.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: If it weren't for the value of that land, this management company would not be able to operate a gambling casino. So the management company needs to give some value to that land and maybe some projections that are more real and get a return on money based upon a percentage that a business should receive rather than something that is ongoing and unrealistic.

LEIF ENGER: Prescott and Little Six operate a consulting firm to help tribes run their own casinos. The firm charges a consulting fee but gets no share of the profits. An Indian-owned financing company fills a similar niche in casino financing. Ojibwe John Herrera is President of First American Capital Management company, which connects Indian tribes with lenders. Herrera says, as Indian gambling develops more credibility with mainstream lenders and tribes get more business experience, more tribes are running their own casinos with only startup help from consultants and financiers.

JOHN HERRERA: Certainly, we're seeing, you know, more and more tribes becoming involved with us on what I would say is the rebound. They've been involved with some kind of a management type entity or some other kind of a profit share arrangement. And they are now coming to First American and seeking the alternative.

LEIF ENGER: But officials at Grand Casinos say they earn their 40% of casino profits. Under federal gaming law, management contracts are limited to seven years. Grand Casinos' chief operating officer, Tom Brosig, says his company has a good chance of renewing its contracts with the Mille Lacs Band.

TOM BROSIG: My opinion is, if you put a quality product on the table, if you put a fair sense of terms, and you always do more than you say you're going to do, and you're honest, that there will be people who will want to do business with you.

LEIF ENGER: Grand Casinos has four more casinos due to open within the next year in Louisiana and Mississippi. The company owns two of them. The other two are owned by Indian tribes. Analyst, Mike Moe, follows the gaming industry for Dain Bosworth. He says Grand Casinos is earning its pay from the Mille Lacs Band.

MIKE MOE: I think given the location of Hinckley and Mille Lacs, the amount of business that they're able to generate roughly $120 million in gross win, when the location isn't even nearly as desirable as what the Mystic Lake casino would be. I think that's significant, and I think it points to some of the marketing and entertainment value that the Grand Casinos' management team has been able to bring to that tribe.

LEIF ENGER: Moe says, after paying the management group, the Mille Lacs Band nets about 15% of total casino revenues. Prescott of the Shakopee, Mdewakanton Dakota says his tribe nets 60% of the gross managing its own casinos. Moe says a 60% profit margin is virtually impossible. The industry standard is around 25%. In any case, Stan Crooks, the Shakopee Mdewakanton tribal chairman, says his tribe is better off without a management company.

STAN CROOKS: Well, certainly because you get 100% of the revenues, you know, the net revenues come to the tribe. Whereas, part of those revenues would go to the management company.

LEIF ENGER: Industry watchers say there are cases around the country of management companies taking advantage of Indian communities. A company owned by entertainer, Wayne Newton, was accused of swindling a tiny Oklahoma tribe. Newton's company was removed, and the case is in arbitration. Bill Thompson, a professor of Public Administration at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, says the Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs isn't doing its regulatory job.

BILL THOMPSON: I think the main purpose of the federal act was to provide a regulatory mechanism. And yet, the bureaucratic operation in Washington, DC has just not gotten off the ground. In fact, they said they had one inspector for-- now, they're supposed to do direct inspection of bingo games. They had one inspector for 200 reservations.

LEIF ENGER: The National Indian Gaming Association opposes tighter regulation, saying calls for more government control are meant to undermine the credibility of Indian gambling. But Thompson says Indian gaming should serve a public interest, funding improvements on reservations. He says tighter government control of companies that do business with tribes would help ensure that tribes get the benefits they want. I'm Leif Enger, Main Street radio.

CATHERINE WINTER: And we're back at Grand Casino Mille Lacs. It's interesting. We have with us both Leonard Prescott, who's with Little Six in Shakopee and also Bernita Churchill, who's with the Mille Lacs Band. Now, obviously, the Shakopee band decided to not use a management company, and Mille Lacs decided that it would. Is one of you right one wrong, or is it just two different ways of doing the same thing? Bernita Churchill?

BERNITA CHURCHILL: Well, I think that each tribe has to look at its resources and what expertise that they have available. And the Mille Lacs Band didn't have the resources to build both facilities here at Mille Lacs and Hinckley. We are definitely developing the capacity to run our own facility. And I guess that's probably one of our main goals. And, in doing that, the management company has provided the training and the education, you know, for our band members to be promoted.

CATHERINE WINTER: So you're hoping, at some point in the future, that you will take over yourselves?

BERNITA CHURCHILL: That's one of our goals, yes.

CATHERINE WINTER: And, Leonard Prescott, has it been a good idea that you took over for yourselves?

LEONARD PRESCOTT: Well, you know, I couldn't presume to tell any other tribe how to run their business. I think that there are other tribes in Minnesota that run their own gaming operations, and they're doing well. But I think that, generally, it's better for the tribe to run their own business because I think it provides for more self sufficiency and management experience for Indian people that could be transferred to other businesses.

I also think that, as that comment that I had about the 40%, a lot of times, and it's not Mille Lacs Casino in general, but management companies. I think that the land is worth something. And 40% of the profits is a lot of dollars when the tribe has hundreds of members or thousands of members to provide for, and the management company maybe has a few members.

And there should be some more realistic work there. It's just my opinion. Also, I think that some management companies that are sympathetic to Indian issues, and they want to provide for Indian people and at the same time go into a state and start developing a state where there are the Indian tribes, I think that's-- I don't know if their interest is for Indian people or maybe it's for the bottom line. And that's not helping Indians nationwide. That's just an opinion.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK. Of the 50,000 American Indians who live in Minnesota, about half live in the Twin Cities away from reservations and away from casinos. The lives of most urban Indians are not touched by the casino boom. But some tribes are trying to extend the economic fruits of casinos to Indians in the city. Minnesota Public Radio's John Biewen has that report.

JOHN BIEWEN: Each weekday morning, Joyce Peak takes a bus or walks the six blocks from her home to the American Indian Center on Franklin Avenue in Minneapolis. There, she gets on a shuttle bus with about 15 other American Indians. This shuttle and another one in Saint Paul each make three round trips a day to the Mystic Lake Casino, 40 minutes away in Prior Lake.

JOYCE PEAK: It just helps out a lot, you know, because I can't afford to buy a car right now. And it gets you to and from work, and it's reliable. And there's no fee. It's provided by the casino.

JOHN BIEWEN: Joyce peak is a member of the Pomo tribe of Northern California. She's lived in Minneapolis most of her life. Before she started work at Mystic Lake 15 months ago, she and her three children were supported by welfare. She did an internship at the casino and meanwhile studied bookkeeping and casino management at a job training center for American Indians. She now makes $8.5 an hour.

JOYCE PEAK: The people that I work with are really nice. And my boss is trying to get a lot of Indians into management. As soon as the new casino was built, there was going to be a lot of promotions. So, hopefully, I'll be looking for a position there somewhere.

JOHN BIEWEN: But Peak is one of the small minority of Twin Cities Indians who've benefited from the casino boom. Frances Fairbanks, who heads the Minneapolis American Indian Center, says unemployment among the city's native population is as high as ever.

FRANCES FAIRBANKS: I'd say it's at least 80% more. Somewhere in there.

JOHN BIEWEN: Twin Cities Indians do not receive monthly shares from casino profits, as do residents of Dakota reservations in Southern Minnesota. And, though some urban Indians have moved back to reservations to work at casinos, most have not. Minneapolis Ojibwe Donovan Boyd says he tried a job at Grand Casino Hinckley, but the wage of $6 an hour wasn't enough to keep him interested.

DONOVAN BOYD: I was working in the gift shop. There was a lot of, you know, stress and strain there. I think it's that you're dealing with people every day that they'll last maybe $200, and they're complaining as to why, you know, why our machines weren't paying out more. And I really didn't care for it.

JOHN BIEWEN: But tribal leaders say they're doing what they can for urban Indians. Officials of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux tribe, which owns Mystic Lake, say the casino employs 400 Indians, all but 20 of them from off the reservation. Mdewakanton tribe members receive shares of gaming profits big enough to live on, and some choose not to work.

The Grand Casinos at Mille Lacs and Hinckley also bus Indian workers from the Twin Cities. But the program has attracted only a few riders. Casino officials blame the 90-mile distance between city and reservation. Grand Casinos' Chief Operating Officer, Tom Brosig, says the casino company is now taking an indirect approach to helping urban Indians.

TOM BROSIG: We're trying to, shall I say, convince our vendors, some of whom have facilities in the Twin cities, that it might give them a competitive advantage in doing business with us to have a progressive program for hiring Indian people.

JOHN BIEWEN: The success of Indian casinos has not meant a windfall for Twin Cities' social service agencies that serve Indians. Officials of the Shakopee Sioux say they gave $325,000 to charities last year, including $26,000 to Indian organizations. Frances Fairbanks of the American Indian Center says her agency got no major grants from casino profits, but she is not complaining. What she does complain about is the suggestion that casinos should solve the problems of all Indians.

FRANCES FAIRBANKS: I presented a grant to a group that was there for-- that only had two questions to me, one about the budget and one about why didn't I go to the casinos for my grant. I said, this is so crazy. I said, you know, it's just like, they're not out here to serve us all. They're going to serve their own reservations, and that's fine.

JOHN BIEWEN: Fairbanks says, after years of bitter poverty, reservation Indians are entitled to look out for themselves for a while. But Bill Thompson, a professor of Public Administration at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, says it's fair to expect Indian tribes with highly profitable casinos to share the wealth.

BILL THOMPSON: This is a privileged benefit given to them. And I would say they should have a special privilege. But in exchange for a favored position, they should accept a social responsibility that the fund from the casino should be considered, in some sense, community funds and taxation funds. And I think they should be able to focus those funds on their individual reservations.

But beyond that, they should have obligations to other Indian peoples too, because that, because they're an Indian person, is why they have this privileged situation with casinos.

FRANCES FAIRBANKS: I would say to him, how would he like the idea of all the white millionaires getting together and helping every white social service agency that needed it? You couldn't do it.

JOHN BIEWEN: Frances Fairbanks says, given the history of broken treaties and stolen Indian lands, Indians should be given at least 100 years to do what they like with casino profits before non-Indians make suggestions on how to use the money. Other native leaders say, given time, Indians will use casino money to help one another more. I'm John Biewen, Minnesota Public Radio.

CATHERINE WINTER: I'd like to remind you that you're listening to a special Main Street radio broadcast live from Grand Casino on the Mille Lacs Chippewa Reservation. I'm Catherine Winter here with Rachel Reabe.

Coming up, The New Buffalo, a Minnesota Public Radio documentary. Then after the documentary, you can call in with your questions for our guests. Support for today's Main Street Radio broadcast is provided by the Blandin Foundation, helping to build communities throughout Minnesota. Let's pause a moment for station identification.