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DAN OLSON: The time now is 12 o'clock. Good afternoon. Midday continues in the Twin Cities. Dan Olson reporting. Just before 1 o'clock today, we'll take a final look at The Weather information for our region. Our guest today, Harry Davis, and we welcome Harry Davis to the studio not so much as a spokesman for Blacks in Minnesota-- although Mr. Davis is a Black man and this is Black History month-- but because Harry Davis has been prominent not only in Black circles in Minneapolis, but Harry Davis has also been active in public education.

And I think, Mr Davis, we want to talk with you, of course, about the contribution of Blacks to Minnesota's past and present. That's an obvious subject for a listener. Questions and we'll be giving out the phone number shortly.

But I really do think we'd be missing an opportunity if we didn't grill you just a little bit about issues regarding public education too because of your long service on the Minneapolis School Board and of course, the Minneapolis School Board facing some very interesting questions now with the projected budget deficit in that district. Well, in any case, welcome. Glad to have you.

HARRY DAVIS: Thank you very much.

DAN OLSON: Harry Davis is a man of many talents. For those of you who do not know the man, he is an executive. He is also a man who has been very active in athletic endeavors, perhaps best known for his work with Golden Gloves and areas related to that. And so we'll be talking about that with you.

If you'd like to call us with a question for Harry Davis about the contribution of Blacks to Minnesota's past and present, we invite you to call us in the Twin Cities at 227-6000, 227-6000 Listeners outside the Twin Cities area can call us toll free no charge. If you call us at 1-800-652-9700. 1-800-652-9700 is the toll free number. And you're free to call us collect too from outside Minnesota. The area code is 612-227-6000.

Well, Mr Davis, I was reading my hometown newspaper. And I grew up in Northwestern Minnesota, an area of the state that, to my knowledge, had no influence, virtually no influence from Black people whatsoever.

And a local community uncovered by way of investigating its centennial celebration this past summer that during the period of bonanza farming in the Red River Valley, the eastern financiers who held those very large tracts of land had indeed brought with them on occasion for the summer period, Black laborers from the South and from the Middle East.

A period of time is a little bit sketchy and a little bit vague, but in any case, there were indeed Black people in the Red River Valley, a portion of our area, which certainly does not have very many Black people at all. I suppose when one looks through history, one uncovers all sorts of little niches where we find the contribution of Black people that we probably didn't know much about.

HARRY DAVIS: Yes, there's quite a few contributions throughout the state that have went virtually unknown, but we know primarily that the majority of the Black people that came to the Twin City area, came either through the railroad, river travel and strangely enough, even through Fort Snelling, soldiers at Fort Snelling.

So there's been a lot of unknown contributions by Black people in this area. And Minnesota really is a bed of introducing future Black leaders to the rest of the world. I'll give you a few examples because our University is one of the greatest, not only in the country, but in the world.

And individuals like Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, Carl Stokes, the first Black mayor, all attended the University of Minnesota as out of town students. And locally, many of our local leaders that went virtually unknown also attended the university, as well as Augsburg College and some of the other schools here.

But we don't really know, at least the public doesn't know that Minneapolis and Saint Paul, the Twin City area. When Blacks were first-- first moved into the Twin City area, was a very segregated area. And segregation was instituted immediately by location, by housing.

And in some cases, it was good. Most cases we think in terms of that is as bad. But as a native Minneapolitan myself and I was born and raised in North Minneapolis and I knew segregation and discrimination at a very young age.

I also knew the corruptions of crime and everything else, being born and raised right around 6 in Lindale and thinking the most success in material things came from that because there were very few successful Black people that presided in that area, as outside the professional people, the doctors and lawyers and so forth.

But thank God for a place like Phyllis Wheatley Settlement House and in St. Paul Hallie Q Brown, which is now combined with Martin Luther King Center, that we had a chance to go and to see positive Black leadership that developed right around those areas in the very hellholes of Minneapolis. The NAACP, the Urban League, the news, the Black newspapers, the spokesmen, the recorder, the career were developed in those areas. Cecil Newman, Mary Kyle had a great influence during that time.

DAN OLSON: We've had the advantage here on Minnesota Public Radio too of having heard Gordon Parks talk about his time in the Twin Cities, a student at mechanic arts. What was the old mechanic arts high school, I think?

HARRY DAVIS: I knew Gordon as a youngster because we had great competition between Phyllis Wheatley and Alec Brown. And of course, me being from Minneapolis, I played with the Phyllis Wheatley teams and Gordy played with the Brown teams. But there was a lot of competition there.

And little did we know that some of the things that happened here in the development of the way of life, as an example at the present time, there are leaders of many of our political-- I mean, our educational institutions, like the Metro College with a president, Metro Community College with Earl Bowman, and Aretha King, who is at Metro College, Dr. Frank Wilson at the University of Minnesota. Dr. Richard Green, the superintendent of schools was also a native northsider.

And Earl Bowman, who was the president of Minneapolis community college, was a native Southsider at Central High School. I knew them both as youngsters and had the benefit of the Gertrude Brown, who was the first executive director of Phyllis Wheatley of Dr. Brown, who has started, has still a large practice from three generations of his family and has been very active in civic activity in terms of bettering the quality of life.

DAN OLSON: Well, we have some callers on the line who'd like to put questions to you and I think we should get to them right now. 227-6000 in the Twin Cities area. Toll free for those of you outside the Twin Cities within Minnesota, 1-800-652-9700 to put a question to Harry Davis talking about the contributions of Blacks in Minnesota past and present. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question.

AUDIENCE: Hi, I just finished a book the other day. It's called The Economics of Politics and Race by Thomas Sowell, PhD. I was just wondering if by any chance you were familiar with it?

HARRY DAVIS: No, I've heard of it, but I've not had a chance to read it.

AUDIENCE: I used to be a rather liberal person in terms of thinking that so many of our problems in this country were due to lingering racism and I see its influence, I guess, to a certain degree. But this book, written by a Black PhD and very well researched with an international perspective says-- and this is something I've run across before that like second generation West Indians have a higher average income than the average than the society in general, or whites or such.

And I start to look at the correlation between IQ and educational achievement levels and some of these other things. And there's a high correlation between abilities and where people end up in society irregardless of race.

And I would just appreciate your comments on it because I really believe that things like high functional illiteracy rates and crime rates and some of these other things are really the things that hold people back and maybe perhaps the break up of the family and things like this.

How do we create a society where people can get out of the negative that they might get trapped in and achieve as some of the people you're talking about have broken out of their perhaps negative situations and achieve something quite worthwhile with their life. I'll listen. Thank you.

HARRY DAVIS: Thank you. I think that there is-- I agree with much of what you've said. And I know that myself and others that have come out of a great degree of poverty, have thrived on and used whatever abilities and educational possibilities they can in order to move into society and to take a rightful place.

I think that the one thing that I'm trying, I'm striving to do with many other Black Minnesotans, along with Minnesotans in general, to improve the quality of life for the state itself is to make sure that we understand that children need role models. Children need positive kinds of influences. Children need motivation and discipline.

And then to find out if they're getting that in their home, whether by their parents or by older brothers and sisters or aunts or uncles, there has to be an adult generating some motivation for that child and being an image for that child to imitate because we all imitate and moving them into the direction so that they know that education to be able to read, to write, and to use figures and to communicate is very important in moving into any part of society.

And then to take a look at what is important in growth. We know we have to move into the area of economics, banks, and other institutions. Businesses generate a potential for growth in the Black community. We need to own them. We need to not only own them, but we need to be executives in them.

So how do we get into that? And during the time that the children are being educated, someone has to advise them in what areas to move in if they expect to move into specific areas, what subjects to take, what priorities to set, and how to influence them and to make them understand the importance of politics, of education, of economics, and how it relates to a free society.

DAN OLSON: I don't know if the caller was suggesting it, but I picked up the idea from a lot of people. I think that racism nowadays is somehow less important to whether or not you are poor or oppressed than being economically poor. Wonder if you can address that.

HARRY DAVIS: Well, you see, I think any phase and I've experienced I'm going on 61 years of age and I've experienced all my life racism. If you take the time to let that bother you, then your progress is lessened and slowed down. You have to understand that this is a part of living and you deal with it as you move along.

So you make sure that you move into the areas of education where you're qualifying yourself to do the best and be the best that you can, to know how to apply, how to communicate, and then to move into the area of competition. Now, everything is competitive. Regardless of what area you move into, it's competitive. And so you have to take competition knowing that you have to be prepared much better oftentimes than your opponent and move in and challenge.

DAN OLSON: So as far as you're concerned, racism is not only present, but in the case of Black people, other minority group members still an extremely important factor.

HARRY DAVIS: I don't think that in your lifetime or my lifetime, or our children's lifetime, we're going to get rid of racism because that's ingrown and it's passed on. It's influenced by people and it's a sickness. And I think that we need to get rid of that. But we're not going to do that right away.

So we have to live with it and deal with it. And that's how we have to prepare ourselves. Just like you're preparing yourself for a handicap in a golf match, you have to do that. And we have to make sure that our children understand that.

The problem in most of the low income Black communities is, yes, the breakdown of the family, the family unit, not only for Black people, but for all people. It's the first unit of education. It's the first unit of discipline. It's the first unit of motivation. And from the family, you get your inspiration.

And unfortunately, family structures are being broken down to such an extent that it's not only becoming a very great problem to Black people, but it's becoming a great problem to the United States in a free society.

DAN OLSON: We have other callers with questions. We'll get to the next one right now. Good afternoon. Harry Davis is listening.

AUDIENCE: Yeah, calling from San Luis Park. One thing I discovered, which I'm inclined to disagree with, the thesis that the first caller was referring to is that once a Black and a white get together and get over that initial wariness, you discover they have exactly the same hopes, and dreams, and aspirations and worries and cares and all the rest of it, and that other than the color of the skin, there isn't all that great difference between the two of them. But nobody ever tries too hard to get across that barrier.

HARRY DAVIS: I agree with you. I think that there is a story that I often tell when I'm speaking to various groups, particularly mixed groups or groups of any color, my own people, in particular.

And it's about the creation and how God created the human being by picking out from the earth, the different colors of the skin and giving them the breath of life and then making a parallel to each of us have two eyes and nose and mouth, two arms, and legs and so forth. And he gave us a mind, a mind which a computer was designed after. So things go in and things come out, and what you do with that.

So the same aspirations go for any race of people. We want the best we can for ourselves and our family. We strive to do better. We strive to promote love and understanding. We strive to defend what we have and to try to gain more. We strive to try to live in a free society and enjoy it. So I agree with you, yes, I think God said all people are created equal and I think that that's true.

DAN OLSON: In aspirations, that's an interesting line of reasoning. I guess my limited experience with Black people has demonstrated to me, however, that there are certain cultural things that we may never share among the races.

And in the case of Blacks, I am struck with the way they arrived in this country, the background of oppression brought to this country against their will families split up. And I suppose in that regard, there are probably many cultural influences that whites cannot appreciate very easily.

HARRY DAVIS: Well, if you go back far enough, in World history, I don't think there's a race or nationality of people that have never been held in bondage by some other race or some other nationality. Some of us are farther away from that.

Unfortunately, Blacks have been are probably the closest to that. And so that lingers. I believe that as generations move along and participate more and become involved at all phases in all levels of this country's and their opportunities, that much of that will be blanked out.

I know there's a pride in talking about slavery and talking about the people that were our ancestors and how they continue to educate, even under oppressive measures where there were no books and so forth, and how the ministers and how the adults that had education passed that on so that right after the Emancipation Proclamation, as Black people instigated schools, some of the great colleges and universities that are still in effect were instituted right after that time.

So I think that the Jews were held by Egypt. And if you look at the conquering efforts of every conquering hero, someone was held in bondage. So we have to overcome that. The only problem is that Black people, the bondage was held closer to today's events and it doesn't disappear in 100 years. It takes a long, long time. We have callers waiting with questions. We'll get to the next one right now. Good afternoon. Harry Davis is listening.

AUDIENCE: Yes, having trained and lived in Indianapolis in the middle of the Black ghetto at that time for six years, I was able to work through some of the hang ups I inherited from my parents. And when I came to Minnesota and decided to live here, I became well acquainted with some Black people that grew up where they were in extreme minority.

And what comes strongest to mind is my singing friend Sylvia Little who didn't know she was Black until she got into high school because there just weren't any other Black families around where she grew up in the Dakotas. And I have also observed that there is an attitude by some Black individuals and it's referred to as Tom something or other-- or as someone who thinks white, but their skin happens to be Black.

And I could think that would be a very big problem. But the conclusion that we've reached with our discussions is that if I was born Black, I wish I lived in Minnesota because you have less hassle than many other parts of the United States. I'll hang up and listen.

HARRY DAVIS: I've had the privilege of traveling around the country, in fact, around the world. I happen to be a member of the United States Olympic Committee and the vice president of the Olympic Boxing Committee. So I've had a lot of world travel. And I understand what you're saying about the state of Minnesota.

And of course, the United States, I noticed how some of my counterparts, some Black people live in other parts of the world and the attitudes towards Blacks, not just because you're Black, but because you're an American in specific parts of the world.

Minnesota is, in my opinion, probably the best place in the world in the United States for a Black family to raise their children. And I would agree with that as a native of Minnesota and the Minneapolis area because of all the educational opportunities, the public school system, the private school system.

I know Sylvia Little very well, and I can understand her not knowing that she was Black for a long period of time. When I was a youngster and lived in North Minneapolis, I had polio and I was the only Black child at Michael Dowling School for the crippled children and I didn't notice that I was Black.

The teachers and the students and all, we got along very well. The only time that I would have any inkling that I was Black is when I went back home into my own community. But that was an advantage too because I did at Phyllis Wheatley have a chance to go to the library, listen to the library, and talk about Negro history and what great contributions my ancestors had made.

I've also done some research on my family's roots here in Minnesota and how they came here. So I have a pretty good idea of why I'm here and why I'm appreciating what they did to make things easier for me.

DAN OLSON: Why don't you say a little bit about that, the research you've done.

HARRY DAVIS: Well, just a little research. In St. Paul there is Harper families, and my great grandmother happened to be a Harper. And her father was an officer in the Union Army. And one of his assignments was Fort Snelling.

Our family on that side was very fair and oftentimes-- and still is a member of a number of Black people that are fair enough to pass for white. And so they were accepted as that. My father, on the other hand, came from Nebraska, and his father was Black, but his mother was Indian, born on the reservation in Nebraska.

And he went to school in Nebraska and played in the Negro big leagues as a baseball player with the Kansas City monarchs and the Chicago American Giants.

DAN OLSON: So we are talking now about your father, Lee Davis.

HARRY DAVIS: That's correct.

DAN OLSON: Who was once fortunate to catch Satchel Paige you were telling me before we went on?

HARRY DAVIS: Before he was traded from the Kansas City monarchs to the Chicago American Giants, Satchel Page had made his entry into and was a part of the Kansas City monarchs baseball team. And my father happened to catch him at least for one season.

My mother being from a soldier's family, her father happened to be an officer and his name was Jackson in the army. And one of his assignments was here at Fort Snelling, and he took his family to see the Kansas City monarchs play the Minneapolis Millers.

DAN OLSON: For heaven's sake.

HARRY DAVIS: And he happened to-- my mother happened to be 12 years old. And my grandfather took her to the ball game and she happened to meet my father there.

DAN OLSON: Wow.

HARRY DAVIS: And my father moved later after he was traded to the Chicago American Giants in the off seasons and drove a horse and buggy for Cleveland wrecking company and rose brothers lumber company in North Minneapolis. So that's where I came from.

DAN OLSON: A sketch of the Davis.

HARRY DAVIS: That's correct.

DAN OLSON: All right, we have callers waiting with questions. We'll get to the next one. The toll free line is open. If you've been waiting to call in toll free no charge at 1-800-652-9700. Other questions for Harry Davis? We'll take the next one. Good afternoon. We're listening.

AUDIENCE: Yes, I'm 66 years old, and I went to school at Harley Hopkins out near Hopkins. And I recall when I was in the second grade teacher announcing that a Black family had moved into the area and these Black girls would be coming to our school.

And we were inducted into this is my first experience meeting a Black person and this was back in 1925, I imagine. And this family lived in that area, and their children went to school at Harley Hopkins. In 1926, we left this area and I lost further contact with this family.

But I understand in the '70s I did meet some of them. My former classmates and this family raised their children and this girl that went to school with me. At that time, raised her family there and still lives in that area, which is not a segregated area. I always recall this because there weren't too many Blacks around at that time.

HARRY DAVIS: Yes, I can recall. You're a little older than I am. I was born in 1923, but I think the family that you're referring to, I believe, is Wagner.

AUDIENCE: I think this girl's name was Evangeline, if I remember correctly.

HARRY DAVIS: I see. But I know that during the time that I was in school and high school and a little later on there was a young man that played with Hopkins and his family lived in Hopkins. His name was Wagner. He Was a very good basketball player.

Of course, there are Black families that live in all of the surrounding suburbs of the Minneapolis and Saint Paul area and attend all of the school systems. And in fact, there are two Black women superintendents. Now, when I think of Minnetonka.

DAN OLSON: That's right.

HARRY DAVIS: And one up in the northern end just recently. I don't know the district, but we've met.

DAN OLSON: We should touch on several other issues, Mr Davis, before we get too far along here so that we have a chance to cover a variety of things. There is a state law now, I believe, in Minnesota regarding interracial adoption and this has been an issue for some families where if I under if I understand the state statute correctly, preference is to be given to a Black family in the case of a Black child being placed for adoption.

Now, I think that this has some considerable support in the Black community, perhaps in the White community too, for all I know. I'm curious to know your feelings about that issue of whether or not you think Black children can be raised in a white culture, a white background.

HARRY DAVIS: Well, I think if you look at the history of most Black Americans that came through slavery, there are very few that are full Black from which country in Africa they came from because of the mixing of the races during the time of slavery. It's my opinion, yes, that in many cases, if it's possible to have a child of a nationality or a race be raised by a family, there's a little closer feeling.

But I'm a religious man. I believe that God created us and that we raise children with love and care. And the love and care is colorblind. Cultures, yes, I think that a child, when they get old enough to know about their background and cultures that should be a positive influence on them.

But I think that the basic ingredients of raising a family and educating children and disciplining them and preparing them for life ahead is primarily by people who love and understand and will motivate and help them regardless of race or color.

If people prefer to have a Black child and a Black family, that's fine. But I can see no reason why a white parent could not raise a Black child successfully. It has been done. They're doing that with the Asian children very successfully.

And I think, on the other hand, Black families have raised white children. And the only thing I think, is that they should know from their cultural backgrounds, when they become old enough to appreciate it and it should not come as a shock to them.

And if we as educators can instill into every United States history book in every public and private institution in this country, the contributions not only of Black people, but Native Americans and Spanish and so forth, where we have a chance to see all of those things with pride and distinction, then I think the culture would grow as a nation rather than just as an individual.

DAN OLSON: 29 minutes after 12 o'clock, we're talking with Harry Davis and callers are waiting with questions. Good afternoon. We're listening.

AUDIENCE: Yes, I'm calling from Saint Paul. I know that historically or in recent history, many times, the only time that white people got to see Blacks was in church exchange visits, choirs, either gospel or otherwise and the church had a very big role.

And I wanted to ask Mr. Davis, with some homogenization taking place and a certain amount of mixing around the change in society, what he feels the role of the church is today and what in the Black community and whether this is lessened. And what do you-- what's going on? I'm very interested in this.

HARRY DAVIS: Well, Black people have always been very religious. In fact, the vast majority of Black people that came to the United States had the influence of Christianity. So that was followed primarily. And the Black minister had a great influence on the growth of Blacks and the quest for freedom and the education.

And they still do, not as much influence as they used to have because more Blacks from generation-to-generation, are moving into professionalism. They're moving into being educators, they're moving into being psychiatrists and psychologists and social workers and so forth. So they do have an influence on the community.

But the Black church and the church in general still has a great deal of influence on the growth and the integration of our society. Unfortunately, the church is still the most segregated place on Sunday morning and sometimes that's a matter of choice.

I think that there's been a great effort to all denominations to open the doors, but opening the doors and getting people and helping people come through that door and remaining there is another issue.

If you continue the-- if a church continues the format that it had provided for the membership before Black families came in, it's likely they will lose Black families. Because Black people in general, myself particular-- and I am a member of Hennepin Avenue United Methodist Church through an integration program where two churches merged, a Black Methodist church, which I was a lay leader of and Hennepin Avenue church, which is one of the largest church Methodist churches in the state of Minnesota, merged together.

Hennepin church provided that opportunity for my children to continue to move into the educational process that we did at border Methodist church. The ministers made an effort to bring the messages and insert the messages of Black religious leaders. The music continued, but there was an insert every once in a while where we could appreciate our Black religious music.

And oftentimes, when we don't receive that, my wife and I and my family go to the Black church. But the church in the insertion of love and understanding through Christianity has directed Black people out of slavery into freedom. And that was not only the Black church, the white church had a great influence on that too.

So you have to think of all the loving white people that have given their lives to make that possible, as well as Black people that stood the test to make sure that the generation following them was going to have that equal opportunity. The church will continue to have a great influence, not only on the Black community, but on the White community.

DAN OLSON: We have other callers waiting. We'll get to the next questioner right now. Good afternoon. Harry Davis is listening.

AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. I'm calling from Lake Sainte-Croix Beach. When I was a student at the University of Minnesota. Roy Wilkins was also a student, and I saw him frequently in the library. I know that he was the president of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, but what else was his main contribution to American life. And then I had one more question. I read at one point that a building in Saint Paul was going to be named in his honor. Did this happen?

HARRY DAVIS: I believe, if I'm not mistaken. Isn't it the Civic Center or one of those buildings.

DAN OLSON: That does ring a bell, but I'm not sure either.

HARRY DAVIS: Yes, I'm quite aware of Roy Wilkins. As Roy Wilkins was attending the University of Minnesota. Spent time at Phyllis Wheatley when I was a youngster there, teaching us about Negro history, teaching us about the importance of economics, business, education, health, and things like that while he was a student.

And as he did his graduate work at the University of Minnesota. he did that at Phyllis Wheatley, as well as Hallie Q Brown. But of course, his greatest contribution to the country was in the area of civil rights through the NAACP.

He was the one that put that on-- made that the largest civil rights organization in the United States, and was very, very influential in terms of the Civil rights legislation of 1964 and did a great deal of background work for Martin Luther King in the area of politics during the time that Martin Luther King had his marches.

DAN OLSON: All right, we have other callers with questions. We'll get to the next one. Good afternoon. Harry Davis is listening.

AUDIENCE: Hello.

DAN OLSON: Yes, go ahead with your question.

AUDIENCE: Oh, hi. I'm 17 and I'm a Black young lady. And my question is I have a hard time dealing with attitudes from Black people as far as dating or different colors because my boyfriend is Black. I'm not Black, but white.

And he's like they feel threatened in a way. And I really have a hard time accepting it because I don't see why they should feel threatened. This is me. And I don't know. I think that this should be less of our worries.

I think nuclear war and everything else, we should all pool our strengths together with that, instead of worrying about who-- if you're going with a white guy or an Indian person or a Black because I get really negative attitudes, like my friend said, you should stick with your own color and all that. And I don't know, he's a nice guy and I just really don't understand it. And I'd like to hear your viewpoint.

HARRY DAVIS: What you are talking about is freedom of choice. And has a human being, you have a right to choose the other human being that you and they agreed that will make that the partnership. And it's unimportant to me as an individual and as a father of four and grandfather of four whether that person is white, or Black, or whatever.

As long as there's love and understanding and caring for each other and sharing, yes, individuals are going to have some effect in your life by attitude, and that's nothing new. It's not going to be erased, but it's going to depend on how strong you and your partner are in accepting this and then overcoming it.

My four children, the three of them are married and have their families. We've had within our own families interracial marriage. And what we've tried to do is accept that as a family program where the children are given the same consideration. The children are loved and understood. That's what's needed.

When you complain about who other people have to make a choice. I think that then you're invading their privacy. You have a right to choose whoever you think that you can be happy with and that they can be happy with you, and that you want to spend the rest of your life with, and you want to share those moments while we're here on earth and it's a very short period of time. So I have no disagreement with you. If you love him and he loves you, go ahead and make it. It's not going to be easy, but go ahead and do it.

DAN OLSON: "Hello. How do you evaluate how much more difficult or easier it is becoming for young people, especially to date white and Black? Have you observed any change in attitudes or are you still seeing many of the same kinds of reactions that you might have observed 25 years ago?"

HARRY DAVIS: I don't think you're going to ever get rid of that, because there's that slavery brought inferior feelings and it also prompted a lot of people to talk about the slave does not physically and mentally capable of participating at the level of the master and so forth. But that's a lot of baloney.

And so I think when I was a youngster, yes, it was looked at with a great deal of displeasure, not only from the White side, but from the Black side. But I think from the process of integration and the process of freedom, the seeking of freedom and what Martin Luther King did, there was a lot of integration during that time where people that believed in freedom stuck together and suffered.

And so by sharing that suffering together, there is an attitude and appreciation of what Black people have gone through. And so they can make a contribution because they've been there. They understand the suffering. And I think that we as Black people should accept that.

And there is a change. I've noticed that in the Minneapolis schools. And I've been on the school board for 16 years, going on 17 years and I was chairman of the board when the court order was passed down to desegregate the schools.

So I've noticed that. I've noticed the attitude of my colleagues on the school board as a change. I noticed the great pleasure that all of us on the school board had when we selected Dr. Richard Green as our superintendent, a product of our school system and a Black man and what a tremendous job he's done.

But I think that the integration of schools and the desegregation of schools in the city of Minneapolis has created a feeling amongst the students that there is no basic difference and that not only will we be educated together, but we will socialize together. That may be different individual schools, but it is much more acceptable now than it was when I was a youngster.

DAN OLSON: We have other callers. We'll get to the next questioner. Good afternoon. Harry Davis is listening.

AUDIENCE: Yes, sir. Are you talking to me?

DAN OLSON: That's right. Go right ahead.

AUDIENCE: Thank you. It's a very great pleasure to talk to Mr. Davis.

HARRY DAVIS: Well, thank you very much.

AUDIENCE: The candidacy of the Reverend Jesse Jackson has raised I think some very unfortunate reactions from the Jewish community. Having lived in Detroit in communities that were both heavily Jewish and heavily Black, I'm aware of the tensions that have developed between those two minority groups.

And also the Reverend has exacerbated that situation to some degree by means of his remarks. But I feel that the primary negative reaction is from those Jewish people who understandably, but I think incorrectly, equate the concern of a Black minister for the dispossessed non-Jewish people in the area of Israel. In your work with the Jewish community, how do you think that we can resolve that situation?

HARRY DAVIS: I think that amongst minorities who have suffered as much as Jewish people and Black people because we've both have been the closest in history in terms of going through slavery, that we must understand that other minority people or other people that suffer as we have suffered, have to be considered, have to be considered and given an opportunity to at least enjoy life while they're here on earth.

And oftentimes that becomes a problem between minority groups as we look at these things, yes, the people that Jesse Jackson is referring to are deadly enemies of the Jewish community. And they've been engaged in warfare from almost the beginning of time. So those things are not easily forgotten.

I think that we have to understand that there is a need to fight against poverty, discrimination, and suffering of any people. And how we do that I think can best resolve the problems between the two minorities. I was born and raised in North Minneapolis.

And in the middle of that there were Black community and Jewish community. I went to school with many Jewish students from the time that I entered school and all the way through North High school. So there's a great fellowship and relationship between Blacks and Jewish people in the City of North Minneapolis.

The reason for that because the area that we lived in, the Jewish people that lived in that area were in the same degree of poverty that we were. So we had to create our own fund and our own games and our own competition. Many of them have become quite wealthy since then or quite influential.

But I think Jesse Jackson's in a very peculiar position. He has chosen to take the spotlight this time in history to make both political parties understand that what they're professing in their platforms about what they want is people to be knowledgeable and inspired by the politics of the party to carry their banner.

They don't point too much to whether that person is Black or white. Jesse Jackson has that influence in many cases, that can provide this country with tremendous, great leadership. He may not become a political figure during this election, but I'm sure it's going to have a lot of influence on the party itself.

Were you surprised, given all of the other Black political figures on the American scene Julian Bond, Barbara Jordan, Ron Dellums, all of the others, Shirley Chisholm, were you surprised at the ascendancy here of the Reverend Jackson?

Not at all Not at all, I think, because he exercised and escalated the leadership of the Black minister. Although many of our political leaders our Black ministers, Andrews and others. But I think he was the most exposed nationally and internationally as a leader of people, particularly Black people.

And when you become a politician, you then cannot afford to say that you're only going to support a certain group of people. You're elected by the people in that community. I'm an elected official on the Minneapolis school board, although, yes, I'm Black and my interests are, of course, to educate, to provide quality, integrated education.

But I cannot forget that white students need education and they must have the best. But Jesse I think is escalating himself into a situation now that's going to test the Democratic Party. At least their platform for years that has never been exercised is going to be test.

I think it's a good thing for the party. I think it's a good thing for the political attitude of the country that he came in at this time to make sure that we understood that we have that conscience, that we need, that those people that can help us retain freedom regardless of how it's done.

I ran for mayor in 1971. I have on a small scale, understand what Jesse is going through. It's physically and mentally draining, but it is also the greatest education and opportunity for an individual to assert themselves into a political situation and say to the delegates that here I am. Now, you test my qualifications, and if you like me, vote for me.

DAN OLSON: We have other callers with questions. We'll get to the next one. Good afternoon. Harry Davis is listening.

AUDIENCE: Thank you. I would appreciate his speaking to the disproportionate number of Blacks in prisons and in the military. I'll hang up and listen.

HARRY DAVIS: Well, I think that there are two choices that a young man has when they're born and raised in the ghetto. And that goes back to when I was a ghetto child. That crime in itself if you live in the ghetto, is so apparent to you, it's so obvious. You're so exposed to it that oftentimes the children accept that as a way of life.

Unfortunately, there is not enough positive influence to get to take that attitude away from them. And so they get engrossed in it. And before it, they're in prison. And when they get into prison, they don't get rehabilitated. They just become worse.

And oftentimes those people that are in prison and that do things to get into prison, serve as an example for those who are right at the edge of it, the drugs and the other things have been very apparent in the Black community, not only recently in recent years, but going way back to the Depression years, reefers and joints and cocaine and things were very apparent in the Black community.

So being exposed to that and looking at saying that there's no degree of success, oftentimes you revert to that artificial God for your own pleasure and when you get trapped, there's no way out. The military is an alternative for those who may not have the opportunity to or the ability to go on to college and pay their own way or through scholarship through an academic scholarship, or through a sports scholarship.

And so they choose the military and that's not a bad choice, because the military services today offer all of the opportunity, the up to date opportunities for young Black men and women to make sure that when they come out of that area that they are prepared to go back into society.

It's unfortunate that we lose so many Black young people to the prisons. We have to find a better way to do that. And Black people alone cannot be the instigators of lessening that. The nation itself is going to have to take on that responsibility of providing, hopefully, for those between the ages of 18 and 25, a better opportunity to get a job, more motivation. And of course, the family is one part where that is not helped splitting up of the family.

DAN OLSON: Is it your experience, Mr. Davis, that the dropout rate among Blacks has been disproportionately high? Or if it hasn't been disproportionately high, how have you observed the attitudes towards education emerging over the past couple of decades among Black families?

HARRY DAVIS: Well, it has been disproportionately high and unfortunately, as it's continuing to be that way. But the exposure of education and not only through the news media, radio and television and cable and all the others have helped us tremendously understand the importance of education to the child and that has lessened the dropout rate in some respects.

The aggressiveness of school districts to get teachers, counselors, directors, principals, and superintendents where a Black child can see the eye helps to see that is a position that I can attain if I do as they did, if I sacrifice and discipline myself.

But also those outside motivating individuals from their family that have to help that and there is a high disproportionate in terms of one parent families, the parents are working, one parent is working. They don't have time to spend with the child. The child needs closeness and understanding and discipline and love. And that's where we're failing.

We have a couple of callers waiting and a couple of lines open as well. 227-6000 in the Twin Cities. If you'd like to put a question to Harry Davis 227-6000. Listeners outside the Twin Cities can call us no charge at 1-800-652-9700. 1-800-652-9700 is the toll free number within Minnesota.

We'll take the next questioner right now. Good afternoon. We're listening. Go ahead with your question, please. All right. Well, apparently that person is not right there. We have several other people standing by though. So we'll get to the next one right now in just one moment. We have four, five callers on the line. Hold on just a second. All right. Now, the caller is on the line. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question.

AUDIENCE: Thank you. I couldn't pass up this opportunity to say hello to Harry Davis.

HARRY DAVIS: Hi, how are you?

AUDIENCE: Fine. I've been a fan for about 40 years. And we're real pleased with your contribution to our society. I have a trivia question to change the pace here a little bit.

HARRY DAVIS: Sure.

AUDIENCE: I always felt that Sugar Ray Robinson was the best fighter I ever saw fight. And I wondered how you felt. And if you don't think he's the best, then who is?

HARRY DAVIS: Well, I happen to agree with you. In my opinion I think, yes, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest fighter that I've seen in my time that ever put on a pair of gloves and got into the squared circle. He mastered all of the techniques of boxing and could compete in the area of rough and tumble fighting, but he still maintained those skills and did it very well.

I would be hard pressed to say anyone that I've seen. Now, they talk about some of the others that I did not know as a child, the Jack Johnson's and some of the others. I never saw them perform, but I did see Sugar Ray Robinson, and I have seen the boxers and are watching the boxers of today. And I believe that Sugar Ray Robinson would have been a champion in regardless of when he boxed. He would have been the champion today, tomorrow, or anytime.

DAN OLSON: A little bit of the boxing expertise of Harry Davis on display. They're still active in Golden Gloves, I presume besides the Olympic work you do.

HARRY DAVIS: Yes, very active. I believe that boxing as an individual sport provides the young men with that self-discipline, confidence, respect that they need to understand the effects of their body, how important it is to them to take care of their body, to keep a good clean, healthy mind, and their spiritual relationship with God.

DAN OLSON: We have other callers waiting. We'll take the next questioner. Good afternoon. Harry Davis is listening.

AUDIENCE: Yes, I have done a fair amount of political work and been rather close to this issue and studied things academically related to this. And I've long held the observation that if you want Americans to change their behavior, the way to do it is to provide a financial incentive.

And I am very interested in seeing an experimental program done in which government would offer financial incentives for people to move into neighborhoods or school districts in which their particular race is not adequately represented.

And therefore, a white family could move into a Black family and have some assistance in terms of moving expenses. One time, I moved inside the same city and found that it cost me nearly $10,000 to do it.

And likewise, if we offer financial incentives for realtors to help people locate that housing. I think that holds promise for getting people to live beside one another, and that allows children to understand one another's cultures and from there, I think more change can take place than we've seen in the past. I wonder if anything like this has been done or if you give your perspective on this experiment.

HARRY DAVIS: Yeah, something like that has been done starting way back in 1967 and '68. At that time, I happened to be the president of the Minneapolis urban Coalition, which was sponsored by the business community, primarily the 14 largest corporations in the Metropolitan area in the state of Minnesota, in fact, the 14 that are in the Fortune 500.

During that period of time, the companies did make direct contact with the real estate dealers, all of them, the agencies informing them that they were bringing Blacks and Latinos and other minorities into the area as entry level executives, research workers, and so forth, and that they would want to because of their educational background, provide them opportunities to purchase or rent or lease housing. Housing in the suburban areas.

So much of the suburban area has been developed through the acts of the controlled datas and the General Mills and the Pillsburys and the Cargills and the Prudential's and the Northwestern national life and the IBM. All of those have brought in a tremendous amount influx of minority people, particularly Blacks at the management and upper management level.

That certainly has had an impact. But it have could changing housing patterns, in your opinion, ever have enough of an impact to alter desegregation needed for public education. So that busing, for example, would not be necessary.

Well, yes, I think that could happen. And in many cases that is happening because although busing is a form of transportation, integration and desegregation didn't invent busing. It was just a method to shift children around in terms of desegregation.

Now, on the other hand, to use busing as integration on a voluntary basis has been done very successfully in the Minneapolis Public school system because we week on our program of not just busing. What is at the end of the bus ride? We offered them alternative education.

We offered them conventional fundamental Montessori, continuous progress, open school, and free school at the elementary and sometimes at the secondary level. We offer them right still, the magnet school program at North High School, the magnet school in the summer. Science, math, and computer science, the performing arts, radio and television.

We offer that at the South High school creating Roosevelt so that there is a mixture there. But it's done on a city wide basis. So if you want to get there and you live in South Minneapolis, you have to take the bus.

DAN OLSON: Yeah that's right.

HARRY DAVIS: And so we're surprised at the number of people that have volunteered to do that and the number of options that are now being stressed at the elementary level through the alternative programs for white and Black students and parents.

DAN OLSON: About three minutes left and callers waiting. We'll take the next questioner. Good afternoon. Harry Davis is listening.

AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. And Harry and I go back a long ways. And I just wanted to say hello to Harry Davis, first of all and make an observation, first of all. And then ask for Harry Davis's comment on that.

I'm a product of Phyllis Wheatley house in and around Phyllis Wheatley house from a number of years. And my very early formative years at Summerfield. I'm sure he will recall that square, the Parkers or Davis, the Dillons and the Grisbys and Grigsbys and Fraziers.

HARRY DAVIS: Breedloves and Browns.

AUDIENCE: Yes.

HARRY DAVIS: All of those Robinsons and [? Barbies. ?]

AUDIENCE: Yeah. Anyway, it seems to me, Harry, that for the past 10 or 15 years, maybe even more than that, there has been a large influx of Blacks from other communities moving into the Twin City area.

And now my observation, it seems to me that one of the things that has happened and I might add that my family goes back in Minnesota history over 100 years, that these new people moving into the area new Blacks moving into the area, and those Blacks who have been around for a number of years seem to have divided up into two factions, those that have been here for a long time and those that are new into the areas or into the area.

I've been reading a lot of articles in the spokesman recorder and a few other newspapers about the dissatisfaction of the Blacks who have migrated into this area. I guess my question to you, Harry, is that I know that is not good. And one of the things that we're going to have to do is overcome that of situation. I'm going to cut myself off right now and say, have a nice day, Harry.

HARRY DAVIS: Fine, thank you. I'm very aware of that problem. And there always is that the complications between the natives and the people that are moving in. So that's nothing new. But I think that as we tend to give people credit for the changes that they've made in the contributions they've made, I think the end result is that the natives, as well as the newcomers, all benefit from it.

The newcomers coming in must understand that much of the progress and the opportunities they have are because of the natives. The natives didn't have them originally and they surely helped to make it possible for them to come. So if that attitude can be changed to say that, look, I understand what has happened.

The natives have made it possible for me. Now, I'm going to work with the natives that are here to make it possible for the next generation to make Minnesota a good place to live and to have the full quality of life.

DAN OLSON: Well, thank you, Harry Davis, for joining us for an hour to talk with listeners about life in Minnesota, past and present for Blacks.

HARRY DAVIS: Fine, thank you. I wish we had another hour.

DAN OLSON: So do I. There are about four people left on the line. Maybe if you have a chance, you'll have a few seconds right after the hour to chat with them on the phone. The forecast for Minnesota today partly cloudy in the east, increasing cloudiness in the west with a chance of light snow or flurries. Highs today 20s north to the low 30s in the South.

Mostly cloudy tonight. Midday on Monday is made possible with the financial assistance of the Pillsbury company On behalf of Totino's foods. This is Dan Olson, technical director at Randy Johnson. And this is Midday. This is the news and information service of Minnesota Public Radio, KSJN 1330, Minneapolis St. Paul News from associated Press Radio in just a moment, followed by music afternoon. And then at 4 o'clock this afternoon, live from National Public Radio, All Things Considered. The time now is 1 o'clock in the news is next.

DAVID MELENDI: AP Network News. I'm David Melendi. President Reagan apparently is still adamant about holding the line on taxes. A group of Governors in Washington for a convention of the National Governors Association got the cold shoulder from Reagan today when they suggested tax hikes coupled with spending cuts as a way to reduce the federal deficit.

The governors weren't pleased with the reception Reagan gave them at the White House. They say he told them. He wouldn't even consider any tax increases until spending has been cut further. Michigan Governor James Blanchard thinks Reagan should have prepared a balanced budget to begin with, just like the governors have to do.

JAMES BLANCHARD: Since every governor has submitted a balanced budget and taken the tough steps 44 indeed, to raise taxes to balance their budgets, we do have some credibility on this issue, and we believe that now in his fourth year in office, the president has a responsibility to at least try to submit a realistic budget, at least one if people don't disavow the next day.

DAVID MELENDI: Michigan Governor James Blanchard, it will take an act of Congress before midnight to guarantee that it won't cost you more to buy things on credit in the future. A law banning a surcharge on credit card purchases expires at that time, unless Congress votes to extend it.

The Supreme Court has left intact a controversial federal regulation that allows radioactive materials to be transported through densely populated urban areas. Vicky Moser has the details.

VICKY MOSER: The court saying it lacked jurisdiction, rejected arguments by New York City and [INAUDIBLE]