(00:00:00) It is an axiom among many men that housework is women's work and it is assumed that the woman will coordinate and usually perform most of the household tasks consequently, if the woman leaves the home either by choice or through a fatal accident, for example, the duties must be assumed by someone else in the case of an accident of a woman who is a housewife insurance companies are sometimes required to place a dollar value on the work performed by the woman. Sometimes the insurance companies or lawyers rely on Expert advice of people like Professor Geraldine Gage was a family Economist from the University of Minnesota Professor gauge. I want to thank you first of all for joining us on midday and st. Paul and I'm very puzzled. I guess by the work of a family Economist who tries to place a value on the worth of a homemaker what the activities done in the home. First of all, can you explain what is the worth of a homemaker in dollars and how you arrived at that figure? (00:00:57) Yes. I think I could say two things about that. The procedure for determining that dollar value really rests on understanding something about the quantity of work done. And that information is derived from surveys of large number of families of varying types. That is to say varying sizes and varying ages and varying stages in the life cycle to get some picture of the average time that's used by Homemakers and varying circumstances on housework. So basically that's one step in it the determining of the value, of course, then is relatively simple one would assume that the value would be equal to the cost of replacing an equivalent amount of time in that home with another worker and I have generally used as a basis for that the value of or the wage rates for Open the area where the family was (00:02:01) residing and we're talking about this in strictly economic terms now and the usefulness of this if I'm not mistaken is primarily for insurance companies who are interested in placing a value on it. Is that right? Or is there a (00:02:13) broader? Yeah. Yes. There is a broader use obviously women working at home represent an extremely large occupational group and in terms of understanding the output of the economy in Toto, it seems important that you would try to include the this work even though it's not valued through the market presently the work that women do at home. That's very large occupational group is not included in any estimates of the productivity of the economy. And so at a extremely different level there, is that possible use of this information to getting a clearer picture of the welfare. - by accounting for the total of their the wealth created either through work in the labor force and trading that for money or directly at home. (00:03:11) I'm curious to about the you mention for example that currently of course, the the work of a homemaker is not valued. It is not included in the GNP of the country for example, but I'm curious about the reaction you get from people when you tell them that part of your discipline is to determine the value of a homemaker and place a value on it. What kinds of reactions do you get from (00:03:32) people are there variety of reactions on the part of some women? They're very pleased that somebody takes seriously what they do because it is a serious undertaking for them. And so I think for that group they kind of belated recognition is very much appreciated. The other possibility is that most people are quite surprised at the the value. Of the work itself that most people tend to undervalue it. And so if they have occasion to see it presented as the actual value more realistically and more empirically determined most people are quite surprised and I suppose at the extreme of that would be some degree of disbelief. (00:04:20) Alright, let's talk some figures now about the value of various categories of work. I would assume for example that in a larger family the person who does the housework mostly women would be more valuable than in a smaller (00:04:33) family. Well, that's a square correct the factors that are related to the workload or of course the size of the family that's an important characteristic of families workload or determinant of it. The other of course is the age and number of children younger children do contribute very significantly to the (00:04:54) workload. So as the children get older, for example, there may be less work (00:04:57) requirement. They well they saw Require less than the sense of direct the feeding and dressing in that kind of thing. The other Factor that's turned out to be quite significant that you would feels obvious. I'm sure is whether the woman is working full time at home or not. And if those three factors really are very critical in and explain some of the differences in the value of work to go back to your question. I've just give an example of a woman who is working at home full-time that is to say not for money has two children one of whom is less than a year old the other which was two or three and who receives what would be an average amount of help from her husband, which might not be very much may not be very much and That in that family and in this labor market my estimates are that the value of her work would be around (00:06:07) $20,000 a year $20,000 a year one woman one woman. All right (00:06:13) contrasting that with another hypothetical family where the woman was working outside of her home full-time and where there were school age children and perhaps even high school age children that the my estimate of that would be in the order of magnitude of $10,000 a year. And so they would range between 10 and 20 thousand dollars a year based on current wage rates for domestic help in this area. (00:06:43) Now you mentioned earlier and I asked earlier about the reaction you get from people when you mention those figures and I want to return to that for just a moment when men and women here that especially men what kind of reaction have you gotten from them? (00:06:57) I frequently stunned silence because it's an unusual thing to for them to think about it all do they believe you I don't know they always do but I think if given time to soberly look at and to consider the data on which it's based and the procedures there are really are no other conclusions you could come to but that is the value of it. And so I think on thinking it over probably they do (00:07:28) believe it hell, I understand too that you have been an expert witness on occasion in trial proceedings where yes lawyers for one side or the other are interested in determining the value of a homemaker in the case of a woman who is lost whose life is lost in a fatal accident. For example now, I'd like to learn more about how that develops the expert witness is somebody who must meet certain requirements according to a court of law. I And and as an expert witness, do you find that your views are taken seriously that the values you place on the value of the work are taken seriously by the by the court. (00:08:10) There's really no way to judge that the expert witness credential is done Case by case and the judge finally rules on whether this is an expert or not. And so I suppose the fact that you get to say anything is some indication that the judge has determined that you're a certifiable expert and the question about belief is really very hard because I never and no one participates in the deliberation the jury and so what they believe or do not believe there's really no way to tell and so you can judge whether they're listening or asleep or whatever but beyond that there's really nowhere to tell (00:09:02) what's a hypothetical case that you might be involved in. (00:09:05) I think a hypothetical case would be a woman who has been The victim of a wrongful death in probably a car accident and is relatively young that is to say 30 and you survived by her husband and two or three relatively young children that that would be very typical kind of circumstance under which I would be asked to make some appraisal as to the loss in this family. (00:09:35) And so the attorneys for the husband in this case are what looking for financial consideration due to the loss of the Homemakers that (00:09:44) well the point in bringing a lawsuit is to recover damages. And so the quantifying of Damages needs to be done as part of the evidence presented to the jury and it's at that point that an attorney would probably contact me (00:09:59) now when you approach a particular situation where you may be asked to evaluate the value of the work of a particular Homemaker, do you have a list of activities or Was it that you go about (00:10:11) deciding what I do need to know how I did it get a description of the family using the characteristics of mentioned the size of the family the ages of the children the employment status of the Homemaker the extent to which she is like other Homemakers with those characteristics that is to say that she in fact assumed a typical rule of a homemaker that there was nothing a typical that she did not for example live next door to her mother who came back and forth on a daily basis to help out or that her own choice within the whole making role was not a typical and so yes, there would be some questions. For example, is she could she be characterized as typical for example in the extent to which she made? I was at home vis-à-vis eating out vis-à-vis TV Etc. And so there are questions of that kind that need to be explored. (00:11:21) What are you finding that men and women are sharing the housework more? (00:11:24) No, I you don't find that. There is really at this point no evidence to suggest that that role is being laterally (00:11:36) moved. Do you have any ideas as to why it is not being (00:11:39) shared. Well traditionally it hasn't I think that additionally most men I think are under sufficient pressure from their employer that it would be very difficult. It would mean adding to a it into a workload and for many men that means cutting into their paid work in some way and for many men that just isn't (00:12:07) possible and yet they're honoring there are an See number of women working full-time jobs and theoretically the same as working for them same pressure as (00:12:16) working on. Yes, and I think when that becomes more true and it may be for the women for whom that is currently true women who see themselves burn me in careers that then the shift maybe may turn up in the survey data at this point. It isn't and historically there haven't been women frequently thinking of themselves as having careers. They think of themselves as working and which is to say they go and do the job and come home. They don't do the extra kinds of things that are demanded of men for promotion and advancement of that kind of thing. But to the extent that women are changing their ideas about that. I would expect that would influence this shift in the hole making rule. (00:13:05) It's a it's a fascinating area, I guess before we went on the air you Out to me that you are a family economists not a family counselor. So it don't really feel comfortable asking you if you have advice to give to men and women who live in the same house and who are thinking of trying to split up the duties. Do you ever do that? Give (00:13:23) advice? Never officially I can't think of very many cases where I've been asked for advice, but certainly it gets a the work of the home can be split up because it is sufficiently possible for any adult. I would think to learn to do it and it does I think what you have to watch as a training phase and so for many men, they're going to find they have to learn to do some of those things and both men and women May object to that the quality of the work would suffer during this learning phase and they won't be very efficient workers for a (00:14:03) while. I'm probably the most difficult part for men will be breaking away from the old stereotypes in Old images disseminate instruments work (00:14:10) say that that that's an impediment to their doing it too. They just don't feel they want (00:14:15) to well Professor Geraldine Gage. Thank you very much for talking with us today on midday Professor gauge as a family Economist from the University of Minnesota who was an expert in determining. Knowing the value of work done in the home.