Transcripts

SAM FORD: The proposed ordinance would ban discrimination because of, quote, "affectional or sexual preference," unquote. It is commonly referred to as the gay rights ordinance. If passed, it would be as illegal to discriminate against homosexuals for their sexual preference as it is to discriminate against Protestants, Catholics, or Jews for their religious preference.

Among those groups most interested in the ordinance are the Saint Paul Firefighters Local 21 and the Minnesota Committee for Gay Rights. The firefighters vehemently opposed to it. The gay rightists ardently for it.

The firefighters say they are against the ordinance because their jobs require that the employees be very intimate. Group spokesman George Jurgensen of Saint Paul Firehouse 14 has been a fireman for 33 years. His father before him was a fireman. Jurgensen says that if the ordinance is passed and a gay person is hired by the fire department, it would have a detrimental effect.

GEORGE JURGENSEN: Firemen live together when they work. And I don't care what kind of a shift it is, whether it's a 24-hour shift, an eight-hour shift, or a 10-hour shift. They eat, work, and live together. They're different from any other employment. And they're practically brothers at work. And they just are not going to accept a person of that type. Won't do it.

SAM FORD: Is there any question at all of a gay person's ability to fight a fire?

GEORGE JURGENSEN: Yes and no. i think in the few circumstances where I may have encountered people who I'm quite sure were of that belief, I would say, no, they weren't capable.

SAM FORD: Why not?

GEORGE JURGENSEN: Just they didn't have the build nor the inclination for this type of a job.

SAM FORD: You mean their physical?

GEORGE JURGENSEN: That's true. Physical attributes and the mental attributes and the desire.

SAM FORD: What kind of job would you suggest that a gay person get into rather than firefighting?

GEORGE JURGENSEN: What kind of a job? Maybe I'm stepping out on a limb here because I'm being told that there are people amongst the athletics-- in athletics. And I doubt very much whether they're in hard labor jobs, maybe. I think the majority of people in my associations through the years feel that this type of a person is and has been in the arts, more so in the arts than any other occupation.

SAM FORD: The two co-chairpersons of the Minnesota Committee for Gay Rights disagree. The two, Kari Woodward and State Senator Allan Spear, say the firefighters are always complaining. First Spear, then Woodward.

ALLAN SPEAR: A few years ago, you'll recall that the fire department said that they should not be forced to hire Blacks in the fire department because they have to live with them closely on an intimate basis. That's a bad reason.

I think that firefighters have survived having to live with Blacks. I think they'll survive having to live with gay people. Gay people don't force their preferences on other people. Gay people are not going to force intimacies on people that aren't interested. There simply is no reason why the firefighters should object to this any more than any other group in the society.

KARI WOODWARD: As attacking, I think the attacks of gay people on straight people are extremely rare. I think most of them are more afraid of being propositioned. I suppose it is a threat to their masculinity or something.

I personally have been propositioned by men ever since I was 15 years old. And I have learned to say no. And I don't understand why these same men who have been propositioning me can't turn around and say no to other people who proposition them.

SAM FORD: Spear says the ordinance needs to be passed so gay people can stop living in fear.

ALLAN SPEAR: These people are forced to live in perpetual fear that they're going to be found out and lose their jobs in the process. In fact, I understand that there was one gentleman who testified in favor of the ordinance in Saint Paul. He said that he was gay. But he could not give his name to the media because he was in fear that he would lose his job if his bosses found out.

You see, gay people face a kind of dilemma. It's sometimes said that gay people have a choice, that unlike other minority people, they can hide the fact that they are gay and therefore not face discrimination. And of course, that's true.

But it's a Hobson's choice because on the one hand, if a gay person says that he or she is gay, then that person does face open discrimination. The person denies that he or she is gay, that means that that person is denying a part of his or her self and consequently is clearly going to face internal and psychological oppression that's also very difficult to cope with.

SAM FORD: Similar ordinances have come up before councils of other cities. Minneapolis just recently passed such an ordinance. New York City just defeated one. The Saint Paul City Council will decide yes or no at its meeting next Tuesday. This is Sam Ford.