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CHRIS JULIN: The couples met at a house in Duluth. They sat in a circle in the living room, 2 lesbians and 4 gay men. Harvey and Eric have been together for 17 years.

ERIC: And it's interesting that the whole concept of marriage, I think we were more keen on the idea in the middle of our relationship, more so than now, when it's such a hot topic. In the middle of our relationship, marriage seems like a much more romantic idea. And now, after being together for so long and the practicality of a relationship has set in, I think marriage becomes secondary to us.

HARVEY: And I'm actually in total agreement with Eric. It's like midst our relationship, had we been able to get married, I'm sure we would have. And now it just doesn't seem to be such an issue for us.

Certainly, there's a lot of legal things that come along with marriage that we would appreciate and that we would like. So we, I'm sure, would give some thought to marriage. But as far as actually feeling it's necessary, I think we validate each other in our relationship and I'm not so sure that I really care if somebody else validates it.

CHRIS JULIN: Harvey was married to a woman years ago. He has kids and grandkids. He says it was a good marriage while it lasted. And he says his relationship with Eric feels similar. Barb and Mags have been sitting on the couch listening.

SPEAKER 1: We've been together 19 years. We spent a long time describing ourselves as engaged for probably the first 10 years that we were together. And not as engaged to be married but engaged with each other. And I think that's something we try and keep alive in our relationship.

SPEAKER 2: Because we didn't start out with the concept of being able to get married. It really didn't define how we related to each other. If you don't obsess about it, then there's not much to concern yourself with. It's about hanging out.

CHRIS JULIN: This is Gary and Tim's house. They're on another couch. They've been together for nine years.

GARY: Tim and I formerly had a commitment ceremony, and it was because of our backgrounds. We are Christian, and we've chosen to continue our faith despite the fact that all indicators were against it from the time that we realized what our orientation was. We had a Methodist minister do a ceremony and we had close to a hundred friends, half of which were heterosexual. Were just as thrilled about us creating our bond with each other as if they were experiencing a straight marriage.

TIM: We both came from pretty stern Baptist backgrounds.

GARY: My parents were together 54 years this last week.

TIM: So they've been married a long time and we've both wanted relationships where they're committed, where we can communicate openly, fairly and respectfully, just like our parents do. And I've got to say, I have it. And to us, we're as married as can be on the committed side of that.

But I've also worked for 11 years with people with HIV, and I've seen what happens in homes when someone has passed away. And I've seen how relatives who have been far apart from the deceased have come in and swooped up the home and even left part owners of the home with nothing. And we've gone and we've opened our bank accounts since we moved here.

We've purchased our cars together. We bought the house together. We've signed statements with our insurance company saying that we are committed relationship. And we've done a number of legal things to make sure that we're respected.

CHRIS JULIN: Tim and Gary always imagined getting married when they were growing up. Gary says when he was six years old, an aunt asked him, what do you want to be? He said, married. Over on the other couch, Mags and Barb don't want anything to do with traditional ideas about marriage.

SPEAKER 2: I'm not interested in a church wedding. It doesn't interest me in the least bit. It's only the legal ramifications that have any interest for us at all.

SPEAKER 1: Marriage also has a religious meaning, I presume. I'm not a religious person. I don't know that meaning. I don't use that in my life.

But when we're talking about marriage law and marriage rights, we're talking about civil marriage. And there is no difference for civil marriage between straight couples and gay couples.

CHRIS JULIN: Mags and Barb say traditional marriages are loaded with symbolism that they don't like. Barb says to her, marriage means ownership.

SPEAKER 2: For conservative cultures, it is still about men owning women. So for lesbians, that's not being married is freedom. Not being married is separation from the patriarchy and its oppressive ramifications.

CHRIS JULIN: So how about civil unions? Maybe gay and lesbian couples could have the legal rights of marriage, but not the label of marriage. Eric shakes his head. He says that's playing games with semantics.

ERIC: I think the implication is that marriage has some definitive meaning. I think that's so silly. That's like saying that every marriage would be stamped from a mold, and that they should be all the same and follow the same rules, which we know is not true. It's the progression of everything in life.

The definition of family is different, the definition of cultural differences. Everything changes. And to try to put this boundary around the word marriage and to separate from civil union, I just find that to be so arrogant to think that we know what that difference is and what the definition of marriage is. Because I think no one knows and it's different for every person.

CHRIS JULIN: No one in this room is talking about going to Massachusetts to get married. Tim and Gary were tempted, but then they thought about the commitment ceremony they had in a church seven years ago. They say getting married in Massachusetts would simply steal the meaning from that other service where they were gathered with all their friends.

All three of these couples want the legal protections granted to heterosexual spouses. They'd all sign up if Minnesota offered some form of legal standing to same sex couples. Gary says he feels like he and Tim are being denied a fundamental right and it makes him mad.

GARY: We have fought the battle of watching, growing up, falling in love through heterosexual movies from the time we are five years old and able to assess what love is, what couples are. We've had to put ourselves in another place, but yet identify on some level with this thing called romance, with this thing called wanting to couple up, wanting to have a life partner. And all of the mechanization of our society has been in place to deny and to push that as far away from us as possible.

And yet we strive to still love. I think that's one of the most phenomenal things that can be said. We still want to love, and it's just about love after all.

CHRIS JULIN: Gary and Tim, Mags and Barb, and Eric and Harvey all live in Duluth. This is Chris Julin, Minnesota Public Radio.