(00:00:00) With news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Greta Cunningham nearly 28,000 state employees are prepared to walk off the job Monday if their demands for a new contract aren't met negotiators for the state and the state's two biggest unions return to the bargaining table tomorrow for three days of talks to prevent the strike after the September 11th terrorist attacks stayed in union negotiators agreed to postpone talks and the original strike date, but union leaders say there is no need for further delay Governor Ventura has not commented on the labor impasse but his spokesman says Mentor is confident that the negotiators will get together and prevent a strike mechanics a Northwest Airlines should stop using overseas stations for aircraft maintenance while the airline is laying off its own workers, but a Northwest spokeswoman says it would be nearly impossible to suddenly stop because of the long lead times involved in the work North Dakota, Senator Byron dorgan says he wants to make sure that Airlines plan to continue to serve North Dakota air travel has slumped badly since the terrorist attacks on the East Coast earlier this month dorgan a Democrat met Tuesday with United Airlines CEO Jim Goodwin and will meet with Northwest Airlines officials in Eagan today. They have assured me previously. They're going to continue serving all four major cities in North Dakota. I hope that ridership passenger count to get back up quickly and that they can continue a full schedule in North Dakota Oregon says Air Service to North Dakota is critical for the state's economic well-being the forecast for Minnesota calls for mostly sunny skies Statewide with high temperatures ranging from 60 to 70 degrees. It'll be clear tonight with lows ranging from 30 to in the Northeast to 45 in the South right now in Worthington is fair and 57 Red Wing reports Fair skies and 52 skies are fair in Duluth temperature of 53 and in the Twin Cities clear skies with a temperature of 56 degrees. That's a news update from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Greta Cunningham programming on Minnesota Public Radio is (00:01:50) supported by the blandin foundation celebrating 60 years of dedication to strengthening rural, Minnesota communities. (00:01:58) It is six minutes now past 11. Good morning, and welcome to midday in Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us some of the images from September 11th will live forever in America's Collective memory the plane flying into the World Trade Center live on national TV Twin Towers collapsing people jumping from the towers people running from the towers for their lives. Then there's that chilling image of Palestinians dancing in the streets passing out candy to celebrate the attack on America. Since the attack many critics both here and abroad say that that final image really shouldn't have come as a surprise to Americans. They say that the u.s. Is guilty of a long list of perceived wrongdoings in the Middle East. Most notably they say the US has been unfair in its support for Israel. They argue that u.s. Support for Israel has fueled suspicion of the u.s. Fueled frustration among Palestinians and created a climate of hopelessness that radical terrorists have been able to exploit this our midday were going to focus on the roots of US policy in the Middle East and what might happen if that policy would change joining us here in the studio is Martin Samson a Middle East expert and political science professor at the University of Minnesota. He has lived and traveled extensively in the area over the years. Most notably he was in the Middle East last spring and now of course, we'll keep you posted on any breaking news developments this hour we're expecting perhaps a Press conference featuring a secretary of state Colin Powell will have live coverage. But in the meantime, if you'd like to join our conversation about us policy in the Middle East give us a call here, six five. One two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight 286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Martin Samson. Thanks for coming in today. Thank you for inviting me. Now before we get started just a quick comment. If you would please on the most recent developments in the Middle East Israeli, foreign minister Perez Palestinian leader, Arafat finally got together today for some talks. Is there any chance that the fighting that we've seen in that area in the past year we'll actually moderate to some degree and perhaps some some steps be taken toward. (00:04:29) Peace. Well, there's always a chance. I think that the israeli-palestinian She was in a very deep trough at the moment. There is a sense widespread that the Oslo process has evaporated or virtually evaporated and it's a time of great frustration for Palestinians. I think on the Israeli side. It's a time of coming to grips with some things that have not been so prominent the rapidity of the demographic change the problems of water supply and thirdly the nature of Palestinian bitterness when things turned sour despite efforts to try since Oslo in 1993 to create a process that would ease some of those things. (00:05:16) Well, let's talk a little history and understand that this is a complicated history, but let's kind of a CliffsNotes version of how it is that we got to where we are relative to Israel and Palestinians the rest first of all who controlled what is now Israel before it was Israel? Words before Israel became a state in 1948 who control that part. Well (00:05:38) the British held a mandate from the 1920s to 1946-47 over that area before that. It was part of the Ottoman Empire and if one wants to go back a notch earlier, I think a way of looking at this is that it emerged in the 20th century as a clash of two secular nationalisms nationalism said had really not existed in that kind of form previously one of the responses of Jews in eastern and western Europe to the Dreyfus trial in France at the end of the 19th century to pogroms against Jewish communities in Russia. And so forth also in the latter part of the 19th century was support for the concept the Jews would be safe only in a state of their own and that was the core of the Zionist program, which I think is often dated from 1897. With a basil basil program another response and a far more widespread response in Europe among the Jewish Community was people who decided it was time to get out picking up and leaving but coming to the United States rather than to Palestine among Jews Zionism was a minority movement. There's a drama however, then after centuries and centuries of Jews saying next year in Jerusalem is part of a Seder service lo and behold in the end of the 19th century and in larger numbers in the early part of the 20th century, you have European Jews picking up and actually going to the holy land on. The other side is the rest of nests in the latter part of the 19th century of people whose language is Arabic who are under ottoman control a variety of reasons for the support that that takes hold really in the 20th century for the concept of Arab nationalism people previously thinking of themselves on the basis of their religion, whether it was Muslim Christian, We're Jewish increasingly thinking of themselves instead on the basis of language and national identity and one can't completely separate those but the emphasis shifts special distinctive things happen to the Palestinian people and by mid century there is a distinctive Palestinian version of Arab nationalism, which is looser in a confrontation with with Jewish nap political nationalism word or political Zionism which succeeds in 1948 and establishing a state (00:08:09) when Israel was established as a state in 1948 were a lot of Palestinians essentially kicked off the land (00:08:18) a lot of peles that there are a variety of reasons for the departure of Palestinians. Benny Morris is book. He's an Israeli historian is the definitive work on this and catalogs area by area and why people left in some cases The Israeli military forces, in fact pushed people in many cases people picked up and left in fact a year or so earlier year and a half earlier people already had begun to leave often well-to-do people who thought well, we'll come back after this is resolved as fighting breaks out in May of 1948 there a number of people who Arabs who go through the Arab lines go to Lebanon for a week or two or Syria or wherever it might be thinking clearly the Arabs are going to win and when they win, then we will come back those people have never returned. They've not been allowed to return in some cases people. I think just had a casual sense that it's not a good idea to be in a war zone in some cases people left because they heard of atrocities. In fact of former prime minister Bagans autobiography entitled The Revolt has a passage about how the atrocity had Darius in was worth a huge number of soldiers to the Israelis just because of the fear that Through other Arab Villages people stayed also if the village leader said stay then a number of those people state in a larger context. There's an interesting point here that is often overlooked. And the interesting point is that inadvertently the Arabs did two huge favors for the Israelis. Once the fighting broke out. One of those favorites was the three quarters of a million approximately three-quarters of a million Palestinians left the area and became refugees. The other favor was rioting in Arab cities against Jewish quarters of those cities typical Middle East City in the Arab world had traditionally has had a Jewish quarter. Its had a Christian quarter. Its had a Muslim quarter and so forth things just exploded in Anger at the Jewish communities. And so something like 300,000 of those people picked up in moved into into the newly created state of Israel it demographically that was extremely For me because had the Arabs Palestinian refugees the Palestinian stayed and had there not been riots against the Jewish quarters of Arab cities. That would have meant 1 million more Arabs in the area that was contested (00:10:52) did the u.s. Support the creation of the state of Israel (00:10:57) emphatically as did the Soviet Union. Hmm (00:10:59) and over time. I have we always supported Israel. It seems to me like during the 1950s during the Suez Crisis in 1956. We were actually on the other side of a dispute with right. Right, (00:11:11) right. I think there's been consistent support for the survival and well-being of Israel. There's also been a consistent tension that US policy toward the region is far more complex than just the idea of is or the the item of Israel and trying to balance the Israeli item with a couple of other items that have been of crucial importance to us has been at some points in abrasive kind of process. Thing I would quickly say is that we're not the major arms supplier to Israel nor the major source of economic support is government until after the 1967 war the Israelis one the 67 war with French Mirage aircraft and British Chieftain tanks subsequently. The French French president de Gaulle says to the Israeli leadership. If you don't return the territories that have been captured you're going to create a Palestinian nationalism that you'll never get out from under and furthermore. We're going to flip to the Arab side the British announced that they were not going to supply things for a while to either side and it's that juncture it which the UN I'm sorry. The United States becomes the central supplier of military equipment to the (00:12:18) Israelis and over time what has been the central recognizing the probably several reasons for this but the central reason why we have been consistent supporters of Israel. (00:12:32) I think there's not a single consistent reason. So let me give you a list instead. I think part of it is an affinity that many Americans have felt with the state of Israel. Overlooking Lebanon overlooking turkey for much of the Sierra. There's a perception that Israel was has been the only democracy in that part of the world. There's a sense that Israelis are very religious which is true of some not of others. There's an admiration I think among many Americans for Israel's military successes and in certain kinds of ways, I think many Americans just feel an affinity with Israel for fundamentalist Protestants who look at the Book of Revelation and say what's happening as part of a pattern that has already been revealed by God. There's a very very strong attachment to the well-being of Israel a crucial point is that I think the impact of the Holocaust on the American Jewish community. Also on a number of other Americans has been a huge part of this that you have a block of people mostly Jews, but some others who are determined to be supportive of Israeli policies, no matter what what those maybe another thing I would add is that historically in u.s. Culture and Western European culture. I think some of the most negative stereotypes have been since the concept of the Muslim or the Arab or the Turk or the Persian or whatever. So you have these positive things in American Society augering for an American support of Israel juxtaposed with American Social perspectives that that look with distaste at the general area in which Israel is located. There's a dispute in the literature, you know, is this real success in receiving so much u.s. Support a function of effective lobbying on behalf of Israel or alternatively is Israel's success. In part at least its location in a region of the world that Americans long before the 20th century have looked askance him (00:14:40) one last question. I'm going to get to we have a whole Bank of callers here. If the US had not supported Israel Over time would the state of Israel still exist were the Arab states? So determined to keep Israel from existing that they would have crushed Israel or is that just a myth basically? (00:15:04) It's hard to answer a hypothetical question without knowing what the Soviets would have done the Soviets. I think saw Israel and the support of NATO States us included for Israel as a huge opening or huge opportunity for them and made arrangements to supply weapons in the mid-1950s to Egypt and then subsequently to Syria and Iraq and so forth had that happened and had there been no no no counter supply of weapons from elsewhere militarily. Israel could have been in a very difficult situation, but I don't think that's plausible. It seems to me that at the Soviets been doing that just because of our court Cold War policy had there been no other motivations at all. We would have moved in and protected Israel. If you can construct a situation in which you simply have Arabs and Israelis and there is no outside involvement my own Senses that Israel for sure would have survived if however the Palestinian refugee Palestinians had not left to become your a few G's and if the is the Arabs had not rioted against Jewish sect sectors of Arab cities impelling another 300,000 Middle Eastern Jews who previously had not been very interested in Zionism into Israel at the beginning Jews would have been a minority and the demographics I think would have mitigated against the emergence of an Israel akin to what you have now. I mean, I think it would have had to have been a multicultural State rather than a state primarily populated by (00:16:49) Jews Martin Samson is with us. He is a political science professor at the University of Minnesota expert on the Middle East and we thought it'd be interesting today to focus on US policy in the Middle East specifically toward Israel, and the In the instance that keeps coming up when people talk about why is it that the u.s. Is hated so much in different parts of the world specifically in the Middle East that always seems to be US policy always seems to be near the top of the list. And so we thought today would be interesting to take a little closer look at us policy in the area. Again. If you like to join our conversation, the number to call would be six five one two, two seven six thousand or 1-800 to for 22828. If you get a busy signal just wait for a few minutes and some of our lines will clear. Oh sure. Go ahead. (00:17:39) Yeah. I just want to make it threaded General proposition there a lot of buttons blinking here, which always happens with public radio. The general proposition is the following. I think since the second world war there have been there were three major concerns of US policy toward the region up until the implosion of the Soviet Union One Is to make sure oil comes out of the area at a reasonable cost so that We and the rest of the industrialized world have ample supplies of oil fuel a second is support of Israel. A third was the containment of the Soviet Union the Soviet Union borders in it bordered turkey border deer on and so forth and and part of what we regard as the Middle East was in the backyard literally of part of the Soviet Union these objectives potentially are contradictory. You want to support Israel, but you want to oil and Israel doesn't have oil and in my own view during this era from the late 1940s until the early 1990s. The chief goal of US foreign policy was to prevent circumstances in which the us would have to choose among these objectives sacrificing the containment of the Soviet Union was Unthinkable in the Cold War turning our back on Israel is Unthinkable giving up automobiles. In our taste such that the 50s we decided we'd like to eight cylinder Automobiles and then we like bigger ones and so forth I think is also on thinkable. So the task I think of American foreign policy was to keep all three balls in the air. What is the circumstance? That's most threatening to that the most threatening circumstance is a significant arab-israeli war with involvement of the Soviet Union and with involvement of ourselves. It's just very hard to know where the chips are going to fool the objective accordingly. I think of American foreign policy was to do everything we could to prevent explosions in the Middle East and in that way enhance the chances that are potentially contradictory objectives of containing the Soviet Union supporting Israel and access to oil all remain viable things that we could work on while simultaneously (00:19:53) robbing your comment, please yes, thank you for taking my call Professor. I've been reading the October 2001 Issue of Harper's magazine. Harper's monthly has a cover story on life. And what is called a Palestinian refugee camp after reading the article. I conclude that these so-called refugee camps are in fact, basically concentration camps. We and why I say that is that basically they're surrounded the these encampments are surrounded by by the state of Israel. There's really no economy at all that the people have to live here are in squalor it there's and so I would commend all our listeners to pick up the issue of the October Harper's and read that over and I get guess my comment or question is that you know, this is what we're going to war for I guess is to to find' This type of behavior by the state of Israel, which indeed is a democracy for those who it will allow citizenship towards wait, excuse me, Robin. That's why you're thinking that that does war on terrorism as Bend has been called to defend Israel as opposed to respond to the attacks in America. Well, no II mean I think that you know, nothing can nothing. I do not condone the attacks on America of course, but I'm saying we will go to war but what will be changed as long as the state of Israel has its policies towards the Palestinians and their occupied territories since 1967. We can go to war in this work and take years however long but as long as they've Israel's policy stay the same the problem is still there. Okay. Thanks for your comment. Sure Professor Sampson is our policy or Israel's policy toward the Palestinians really at the root of the terrorism problem, which has will know this is this is a view that's been we've heard a lot the last two weeks. Yeah, (00:22:16) the israeli-palestinian issue which began really as an Israeli Arab issue and from the perspective of violence over the last 20 plus years his focused more. Lee as the palestinian-israeli issue is among the most disruptive things in the Middle East there's no question about that. Could we potentially be in the same kind of situation we are now vis-à-vis extremist Arab groups resulting to terrorism in justifying that in their view as an Islamic Duty or something of you that most Islamic authorities would reject immensely. It's not impossible. It's not impossible and I think it's a big topic to discuss why that might be that's a hypothetical one. Let me turn instead to the more specific thing about the refugee camps. I've not read the Harper's article I will do. So after this this program number one who ended up in the refugee camps at the people ended up in the Palestinian refugee camps tended to be poorly educated or uneducated rural Palestinians the other Palestinian. Geez who had money who had education fit fairly smoothly into the economies of Beirut of Damascus of Cairo and a number of them eventually into the economies of the states of the Persian Arabian Gulf the refugees and other words were people who were really at the bottom. I mean the people in the camps are the people who were were really at the bottom of Palestinian Society in general point to is that the United Nations relief Works agency was created in the 1940s to and and took a major role in trying to be supportive of these people a significant part of their budget came from the United States, the objective of Unruh was to provide training to vocational training and and education and also shelter for these people and the Hope was that eventually these people to would blend into the areas. Where they had ended up what was not part of the on Raw formula was some acknowledgement of the political claims of Palestinians and both they and the more professional more well-to-do better educated people is the years have gone by I think have deepened their sense of being Palestinians rather than this just some help floating away. The sense of Injustice is very very deep. This is an important Point here that Palestinian refugees for instance in these camps have objected the placement of permanent roofs on on homes that in their view would be a concession to the Injustice that in fact they now need to live someplace else and that they have given up their their sense of going home. It's a huge huge problem and over the Decades of the latter part of the 20th century. I think that that they're became leadership emerged for a Palestinian political identities. The 1993 Oslo process resulted in an Israeli recognition basically of that and the Hope was that some kind of compromise could ensue that of course would be unsatisfactory to some people on each side, but that for the middle could could be viable and that's essentially what's been (00:25:46) derailed. Let's let's get one more caller on here before we break for headlines fill your question, please. Yeah, thank you very much incidentally your program. This last week has been especially great for for we listeners that are trying to arrest listeners that are trying to figure out what's happening. Okay. First question is to what extent as the is has the Jewish vote in the United States influenced our policy our foreign policy toward Israel. Secondly. What is the historic claim of the Muslims or let's say Islam on on Jerusalem they claim some holy It's there how what's the background on that? Is it legitimate and and well nevermind. That's the question. Okay, not a lot of time here Professor for these two questions Jewish the impact of the Jewish vote on US policy toward (00:26:42) Israel. It's been substantial Congress has always been more supportive of Israel in general than the executive branch has interestingly. The number of Muslims in the country now is growing and growing and we may be beginning an era in which the American Muslim vote also becomes very significant point to Historic claim Muslims Jews and Christians have quite different attachments to the city of Jerusalem for Muslims. This is the place from which Muhammad rode on a horse to Heaven. It's regarded as the third holiest city and has had that status is throughout Islamic Islamic history. Its third after Mecca and Medina. (00:27:25) We are talking with Martin Sampson. Sour about the Middle East more specifically US policy toward the Middle East in light of the frequent statements that we've heard in the last couple of weeks that at the root of so much antipathy toward the United States in the Middle East is this policy toward Israel supporting Israel, and we thought we'd take a closer look at us policy toward Israel this hour again. Let me give you the phone number, but don't dial in right now. You'll just get a busy signal and then you'll get frustrated but write the number down and we'll try to get some more calls here in just a moment six five. One two, two seven six thousand or 1-800 to for to to 828 when terrorists attacked American targets 30,000 of Minnesota state workers put a possible strike on hold but they could walk off the job next Monday. If no agreement is reached to go to this would so much mixed feelings. It's really been hard and they don't want to do anything that's going to harm the state. I'm learn events and we'll have that story. The next All Things Considered weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota Public Radio. Programming I Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Twin City coops Federal Credit Union a leading choice for auto loans and leasing in the Twin Cities metropolitan area of information and rates are available at 6'5 12153500 programs you here on Minnesota Public Radio or also made possible by listeners like you and we thank you. There's greater Cunningham now with some headlines Greta. Thanks Gary. Good morning, Delta Airlines announced today. It's cutting up to 13,000 jobs because of the drop in air travel caused by the terrorist attacks other US Airlines have announced about 80,000 job Cuts since the September 11th attacks stock prices are generally lower after opening higher in early Wall Street trading analysts say there still some bargain-hunting going on amid a backdrop of week corporate profits and a concern about a recession a Virginia man whose name and phone number were found in a car registered to one of the 19 suspected hijackers was ordered held without bond today the prosecutor described him as an essential witness in the east coast terrorist attacks. Thousands of Afghans have attacked one of the last symbols of America left in Afghanistan. They storm the long-abandoned u.s. Embassy compound in the capital Kabul today pelting it with stones torching cars and ripping down the u.s. Seal a white police officer has been acquitted in a case that spark Cincinnati's worst racial unrest in 30 years. A judge says the shooting of an unarmed black man by Officer Stephen Roche was not a culpable criminal act Roche had been charged with negligent homicide in Regional news. Minnesota-based 3M is joining with Eli Lilly and Company in a licensing deal for a new herpes drug under the agreement 3M will receive 100 million dollars upfront fee and potentially larger payments later while indianapolis-based Lily gasps worldwide commercial rights to the drug Rasika mod a sudden Capital shortfall has forced brokerage Miller Johnson steichen knar to suspend most customer transactions company officials say they're trying to sell part or all of the firm to raise enough money to keep afloat the forecast for Minnesota called. For mostly sunny skies today highs will range from 60 to 70 degrees right now in Worthington is fair in 57 Duluth reports Fair skies and 53. It's fair in Red Wing and 52 and in the Twin Cities clear skies with a temperature of 56 Gary. That's a look at the latest news. Thank you Greta. It is 25 minutes now before 12 o'clock. Midday coming to you in Minnesota Public Radio this hour, we are taking a look at us policy in the Middle East specifically u.s. Support for Israel a source of concern that many people have expressed since the attack on America many people saying that one of the reasons that the attacks may have occurred certainly one of the reasons that we saw some dancing in the streets in the rest is that to celebrate those attacks in the Middle East is because of our continued support for Israel Martin Samson is with us to take listener calls and let's get back to our phones now a Michael your question, please Yes, it's really just a comment. It seems to me that the real root of the issue of the israeli-arab conflict has been the failure of the Arab Nations surrounding Israel to recognize its existence and it's right to continue as a nation. It seems to me that that was the cause of the 48 War the 67 war in the 73 war. And when Israel has determined that it really has a true partner for peace on the other side. It has made far-reaching concessions that was certainly the case when it made peace with it with Egypt it gave back the entire Sinai, but the only response by the Palestinians to the offer put forth by the Israelis at Camp David was a year of violence. So it's kind of disturbing that the news reports keep framing this as you know, Israeli acts of aggression and and Israeli Act of terrorism. It seems like it's turning the language. Of terrorism on its head. Okay have the have the Arabs given up on the notion of eliminating Israel as a (00:32:44) state. I think 1967 was very sobering Arabs were appalled by the rapidity of the defeat in the scope of the defeat and I think for many of them it did not end the phrase that well it took, you know, I'm teen years to get the Crusaders out. Eventually. We'll get the Israelis out. But it did I think for any any sensible person in the Arab world and optimism that in the short term this problem was going to be resolved on a non-arab (00:33:10) terms setting aside the military issued all the whether they were capable of doing this assuming they were able to do it. Is that what they'd like to do (00:33:21) some people? Yes, I think there's also a huge frustration in societies that are run by oppressive governments where economic growth has been disappointing where distribution of wealth is is horrendously inequitable. There's a certain fatigue with Palestinian issue and what we have seen in the past 20 years, maybe the beginning of real progress that for the Israelis. Now the key security problem is Palestinians. They're not under threat from Egypt. They're not under threat from Jordan. Syria by itself can't do anything. Yes their concerns about Iraq and Iran, but the basic security problem that's hurting the Israeli economy and raising profound questions about the governance of Israel down. The road is the relationship to Palestinians and and you know in my view that's the core issue shortly after Oslo in 1993, very rapidly some there began to be Arab trade missions and and a number of warm statements about Israel from quarters of the Arab world beside Egypt if somehow the israeli-palestinian core could be could could be addressed in some viably satisfactory way. It would ease. I think a lot of the other problems. I don't however disagree with a callers observation that there's plenty of fault on the air. Side and that the Arabs even in their own interest could have played their cards more effectively than they did (00:34:40) now we do here some really virulent anti-jewish comments coming from some countries as some of the Muslim clerics. The bin Laden organization was saying is now added Jews to the list. They say kill all the Americans and now they say kill all the Americans in the Jews are there reports out of Pakistan that somebody has been spreading reports that all the Jews who worked at the World Trade Center were told to stay home on the on September 11th. That that this was all part of some plot given I mean is that is that sentiment fairly widespread? (00:35:16) Well, I think in these days the sentiment is more welcome than it has been at certain other times. The the result of the outbreak of violence again about a year ago has dramatized aspects of the day-to-day israeli-palestinian relationship through television. And so forth in ways that that had not been dramatized before the voices that are more muted at the moment are also plentiful in the Muslim world and they would include voices saying Judaism Christianity and Islam are the same tradition. It's the same God trying to reach Humanity. We've always had a special place for people of the book Jews and Christians are superior to any other kind of people each has a holy book. We each worship the same God there's an affinity here that that is part of who we are as Muslims that gets lost. I think another thing that gets lost is an empathy at least in much of the Arab world, which may not apply to Really Jewish Society at the moment but down the road. I think potentially could namely an empathy of people for other people and a statement that quickly you you encounter saying, you know, we despise the American government's policy, but you're just an American so it's not your fault and people-to-people. We understand, you know, how little leverage people have over government policies. There is I think an ample supply of empathy which at this point is not in Vogue of A people-to-people Sort and many many Muslims would describe that as intrinsic to Aslam as they understand Islam (00:37:04) Carol your question, please yes. Thank you in 1923 wasn't an Arab State created in what the Arab state of Jordan with the hashemite king. That's do a great grandfather of the current King and what exactly was the bill for decision? (00:37:23) Balfour is a declaration in 1917 public statement by the British foreign secretary the British government that had favored a national home for the Jews that was carefully phrase that did not say state or country. It said home. It also said a instead of thee because they didn't want to imply that Jews living elsewhere was inappropriate or unacceptable Britain and France decide how to carve up the part of the Ottoman Empire that had controlled the Eastern Mediterranean both ended up with mandates approved by the League of Nations that essentially rubber stamp to what they had agreed between themselves to do San Remo is probably the main conference there. The British mandate is a mandate for Palestine which includes what is now Jordan and Israel. If one reads that mandate way in the background. I know it's article 25 26 is the statement that if the controlling power Britain so wishes it can divide the area into two pieces in the west. The Balfour Declaration would apply west of the Jordan River East of the Jordan River. The Balfour Declaration would not apply. Well Britain quickly sends a memo to the League of Nations saying yes, we wish to do this the League of Nations approves it and I think that's what you're referring to. It is not however the creation of an independent state the whole show remains under British control until after the second world war. (00:38:51) Arafat are commonplace. Well, thanks for having me if there is anything good came out of this horrible event. I think it is this open dialogue and I am myself from a Palestinian background. However, you started the program with the footage that was disputed by the BBC to call it footage from the 1991 Saddam Hussein's missiles on Tel Aviv. And this never happened after the bombing of New York and Washington. Well our reporters on the scene National Public Radio reporters were right there got the voices of the folks who were celebrating so it did happen. I mean to some degree so some degree, but later on you emphasized that it had people in the Middle East will celebrating and it came from one Street in Gaza or in West Bank to become the Palestinians to become the people of the Middle East. What I'm trying to say is there are labels and phrases that have been inciting more misunderstanding to the course as a whole. First of all saying that there we will throw the Jews in the sea while we have in Morocco. In Egypt in Syria and Yemen and Bahrain. There were a lot of Jews and we never threw them into the sea the notion that we hate American. So for therefore, we will kill them. Yes, we have too many tourists coming to our countries and we never kidnapped or killed any of them. What II would like to to address also a big problem that somebody is trying to tell us that we hit the American so much so we did that for the past 50 years. The American policy has been to say the least very painful to Arabs and Muslims in General yet recently. There was an improvement there was at least a recognition of our suffering so it makes no sense that in the darkest day of the American Support to the state of Israel uprooting trees destroying homes putting people in jails torturing them. We did not see Palestinians are Arabs or Muslims coming to hit New York or anywhere. Rails why after there is some improvement and bigger dialogue between the Americans we would resort to something like this. The addressing of issue of democracy. I don't know what kind of democracy in this country. We either have principles to live by the freedom and democracy and we build relationships based on that or we can we can't have it boss. We can't have say that we support Israel because it's a friend and we will sacrifice democracy where a person is not a person unless he's a Jew in Palestine. Okay. Thanks Sheriff a appreciate appreciate your comments. Thank you. Let's pick up on that last point. If Israel is the beacon of democracy in the Middle East there the policies that have been instituted don't always seem so Democratic and there does seem to be this this preoccupation with maintaining Israel as a Jewish State why? (00:42:07) Well, it was the point of the Zionist movement was to create a state for Jews run by Jews. It's (00:42:13) not when that was, you know, if Years ago now we're in the 21st (00:42:18) century. Right? Right, but the descendants of the people who came before 50 years ago or 50 years ago who are Jews and citizens of Israel. I think are very much in agreement on retaining that current population of Israel includes 20 21 percent something like that Israeli citizens who were not Jewish and that's not a threat to most of the people in the knesset being of Jewish background and so on and so forth the the and in that sense there is at least from the perspective of voting. I'm some basic mechanism than that. Looks like democracy. The catch is is twofold one is there's an unclear number of Jews who in the Israeli census are clued included Israeli Jewish citizens and indeed retain Jewish or Israeli passports, but have left and more or less permanently are working here or in For Latin America or something. One of the estimates is 700,000 and other white be a million Israelis themselves openly talked about this what that means is that the actual number of Israeli Jews resident in Israel is significantly lower than the published population figures that for Israelis is a very ominous kind of thing. Secondly the non-jewish population grows much more rapidly than the Jewish population and I think for more and more Israelis the idea of a Palestinian state that will relieve Israeli responsibility for worrying about people who can never be loyal to the state of Israel Arabs residing Palestinians residing in the West Bank Gaza. And so forth increasingly is a very attractive idea. There are huge questions of democracy here. Is it plausible in fact that after years and years to come Of a continued stalemate that eventually there is a democratic solution for the whole the whole area. That is real Now controls namely an open democracy in which from time to time. You're going to have a Palestinian prime minister, or maybe normally you would have a Palestinian prime minister, but that some aspect of the Zionist Quest, you know remains remains intact the colors right to point at that issue. There's something else here also and I think that applies primarily to Israel's occupation the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip may not be the most vicious occupation by foreigners that has ever occurred in history, but among other things it is legitimated the use of torture which puts Israel in a very different official position vis-à-vis a number of other most other states in the world, although not a different practical position the economic suffering in the area has increased and living This kind of occupation as living under anybody's occupation to say the least is not fun (00:45:23) Michelle. You're coming. Hello. Thank you for taking my call. There are a couple comments that I want to make and I will be as brief as I know. I need to first of all in the Balfour Declaration the British did name Palestine to be the Israeli new home. Secondly what other situation has u.s. Policy since the modern world agreed with one country taking over another you made it sound like excuse me. You made it sound like the exchange between the government's with a peaceful exchange and it couldn't have been more bloody a conflict how the United States can condone or expect any Nation to turn over their land to someone else without a conflict is absolutely ludicrous. Okay. Thanks for your comments here. I don't know that we want to get bogged down in the Balfour Declaration. (00:46:30) I do very quick comment. It doesn't mention the word Israeli. It does refer to Palestine, but that's not the whole story. You have to look at the wording of the League of Nations mandate for Palestine given to the British and that phrase that invites the British to divide the area into two pieces if they wish to and if the league so approves they opted to do that. So you ended up with transjordan in the East and Palestine in the west. I'm not sure what the reference is to one country taking over. Another is a peaceful Endeavor, I think. Snow, I think the points of that (00:47:03) here. I think the point would be that out of out of this territory. All of a sudden was created this Israeli state, right? And the people of the Assumption is the people who are living there weren't welcome there anymore. Right? We're bringing in some new folks and you go find someplace else to live. Yeah (00:47:21) fair enough without the Holocaust that would not have happened had the United States opened its borders to Jews that had survived the Holocaust in wanted to leave Europe had the British done that then the flow of people into of European Jews into Palestine would be somewhat less. But neither of those things happened and Jews who wanted to get out of Europe. I think so of Palestine is the only place to which they could go the crunch was enormous. I mean, we are still trying to figure that out the cultural difference between Europeans coming in and and and middle easterners residing there was Mammoth. There are a whole lot of dimensions of this that make it a very very Difficult problem to solve and and it certainly has been violent in many respects and bloody and so forth so which should not be minimized (00:48:09) Xavier next go ahead place. Thank you. Well, I think I think everybody is is thinking of Israel as being a big big country. I mean California is 16 times bigger than Israel. You have five Jewish people and Israel. You have people that came from the Holocaust on my son of a Survivor Holocaust and people are saying well, they are the aggressors where they are the ones Palestinians don't have any rights in any other countries Israel treats the Palestinians better than anybody else and and and what happened when the Romans in the 70 AD when they decided to to have a falestine, I mean, I mean, there is no such thing as Palestinian. What does that mean? You know and and you know, it says in the Bible, I mean it isn't it the Muslims but also the Jewish people the Jewish Who are our this is the promised land it says in the Bible and into into heaven. How many wars did we have with the Arabs? How many times were they attacking us? How many people did we have they own in the Arab Nations their own 99.9% of all the land. You know, this is just an excuse for the Arabs to get rid of, you know, pushed a Jewish people push the Jew into the ocean. That's the only thing you can you can always hear push the Jewish people into the ocean. Okay, so it's you know, all right. Thanks to thank you. Yep. Let me (00:49:37) quick things. If you want to know where Palestinians feel well treated ask a Palestinian and the odds that the israeli-occupied territories of the answer. I think are very very small. Jordan is the only state that has willingly given citizenship to large numbers of Palestinians, but there's certainly a large numbers of Palestinians that have found gainful employment and economically are doing quite well elsewhere in the in the Arab world. The size of the country is right. I mean that it's dramatic to visiting Americans how astonishingly small Israel is but I think that increasingly large numbers of Israelis Now understand the answer to the question. What is a Palestinian And furthermore within this very small country you now have including what Israel occupies a demographic ratio of probably approximately 55% Israeli Jews, 45% non-jews, most of whom are our Palestinian Muslims and some Palestinian Christians. If you subtract all of the Palestinian all accelerating if you subtract all the Israelis that are counted as being there but that in fact are not there. Then this ratio looks very different and the core question is how can these two peoples neither of which is going to evaporate on both of which have rationales that certainly are persuasive to them for why this is their Homeland. How can these two peoples somehow reconcile things and begin to cool the situation (00:51:10) down Shep Harris is on the line Shepherd don't have a lot of time left quick comment from you though. Sure. Sure. I'll try I appreciate it Martin. I think you know me, this is How you doing? I'm eating relations Council. I'm glad you're on the show. But I am concerned that the people are getting the wrong impression today on the show about Israel discriminating against Palestinians mean. It's a I think if Israel were in the symbol if United States was in the same position as Israel and extremely concerned about its security as they are right now because of the terrorist attacks, there are certain behind-the-scenes movements that the United States is taking to ensure its security for its citizens and Israel, unfortunately because it's being attacked by Arafat and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and others they're having to take various security measures into consideration as well. So I hope you'd you would bring that up as well. (00:52:05) I don't disagree with that. There's if one just looks though at the Palestinians who are Israeli citizens a very very interesting thing has happened over the past year. There is an agonizing I think inquiry A lot of Israeli Jews along the lines of how did we lose these people? Why is it that these people now seem so sympathetic to the Palestinians when in 1967 for instance, they were not and that begins to reveal a whole lot of kinds of things one. Is that a lot of local development in Israel is handled by the Jewish National Fund not by the Israeli government Jewish National Fund obviously is not going to put investment build sewage systems, etc. Etc in Arab Villages so that there is a structural inequity of the circumstances of Arab towns versus Israeli Israeli Jewish towns comment was made that the northern part of Israel. There's not a single ambulance located in any of the the medium-sized Palestinian or Israeli Arab towns. There are a whole lot of things along these lines some of which have social Roots some of which have structural Roots, but none of which I think really reflect. Serious security concern the argument should be made the other way around that we're Israel doing more for this. What is it 18 percent perhaps of its population. The odds are much higher that these people would be less enthusiastic about what the Palestinians are doing in the West Bank and the Gaza (00:53:41) Strip. We only have about a minute left. Would you anticipate as we move forward here that US policy in the Middle East is going to change significantly or can we expect the u.s. Largely to line up behind Israel? And how do you see that playing? (00:53:58) Well, I think Sharon I think is concerned. I mean he very quickly made a statement after President Bush's speech that Israel is not going to sacrifice its objectives to further the u.s. Effort to control a terrorism. I think the basic Quest somehow to find a solution that is viable for Israel and viable for the Palestinians. It was I don't think that's going to change. I am curious about demographically what is going on in this country in regard to the growth of American Muslims. And I also think that the issue of Jerusalem is of interest to American Muslims whose recent Origins are not the Arab world or the Middle East who in general have not been very impressed with Palestinian issue. There's a possibility I think for unification here that will result in stronger a lobbying voices from American Muslims how that affects the Congress and so forth remains to be seen (00:54:54) Martin Samson. Thanks so much for coming in today University of Minnesota political scientists, Martin Samson joining us during this first hour of midday to talk about us policy in the Middle East. We're going to break here for station identification. And then it's off to Washington for more coverage from National Public Radio. When you're looking for an update on the news, log on to Minnesota Public Radio dot-org headlines are updated several times an hour. There's audio from your favorite MPR shows and you can respond to the issues on the MPR. It's all in the news section of Minnesota Public Radio dot-org. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio partly cloudy Sky 59 degrees at Kinder wfm 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul Sunny to partly sunny through the afternoon. It could hit 68 degrees today about 10 degrees warmer clear skies tonight with a low from 40 to 45 tomorrow sunny skies with a high of 65 to 70 about the same tomorrow. This is a special report from NPR news. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. The Bush Administration got welcome news today from the Middle East. The two sides would resume full security cooperation and exert maximum efforts to sustain the declare a ceasefire Palestinian cabinet members Sayid haricot speaking today after a meeting between Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and Israel's foreign minister Shimon Peres. Iran says us retaliation for the terrorist attacks two weeks ago would be justified if there is proof of who's responsible BBC reporter. Jim Muir says Iran fears a war in the region Iran's Viewpoint is that it does not want to see another bloodbath in Afghanistan. It does not want to see waves of refugees flooding across its borders. It already has more than 2 million here from previous upheavals and other people's borders as well. We'll bring you the latest after this news update.