(00:00:03) And good morning. Welcome to midday in Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us guns and gun violence are back in the headlines today and California 15 year old boy is facing murder charges in connection with yesterday's shooting at a Suburban San Diego High School two students were killed 13 other people were injured in yesterday's shooting. Meanwhile here in Minnesota efforts are underway to change Minnesota's gun laws. They focus on very different aspects of the issue one measure would increase the regulations governing guns in Minnesota. The other would make it easier for people to get a permit to carry a handgun today on. Midday. We're going to take a closer look at both pieces of legislation joining us today from the state capitol is Faribault Republican state representative Linda Boudreaux, who is the co-author of the permit law title the personal protection Act of 2001 and joining us by phone is former dfl state representative Howard Ornstein from st. Paul. He's President of the group citizens for a safer Minnesota, which is proposing a package of legislation titled the Child Safety Act of 2001 other things. It would require mandatory safety locks for guns as usual. We invite you to join our conversation. We're talking about State gun legislation this hour and if you have some thoughts on whether Minnesota's gun laws should be changed. If you have a question for our guests, give us a call. Our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll free at 1-888-438-6557 or 1-800 to for to to 828 representative Boudreaux. Mr. Arnstein. Thank you for joining us today. Good morning Gary appreciate it represented Boudreaux. Let me start with you. You have a hearing on your bill as I understand it on Thursday. What is it that you're proposing? (00:01:56) Well, actually Gary I'm glad you asked because I don't know that you turned it quite accurately. I am offering to language and an initiative to provide uniformity in our current permitting laws, which permit persons who demonstrate certain criteria requirements to obtain a permit to carry a weapon. And the reason to do that is of course for their self protection and their self defense and we do have laws that allow people to defend themselves in this state which may be a surprise to some folks. The problem is we don't allow people to use a firearm to do that and we have very much a problem with inconsistency and unfairness throughout the state simply because the permit is given at the discretion of a variety of law enforcement authorities both either police Chiefs or Sheriff's this proposal that We have had hearings on previously but we'll have one Thursday simply provides that in the 87 counties. The sheriff would be the issuing authority for persons who are in who would like to have a permit to carry a handgun or a firearm I should say and it does provide for criteria that must be met in order to do so and I think the criteria is is very reliable in that we have training components as well as handling skills need and knowledge of our self-defense laws as well as competency demonstrated through background checks and responsibility demonstrated through that person's records. So I think we have a system currently that needs a little bit of revamping so that and and if possible I'd like to today read from some of those letters just a little fragments of the people. Are advocating for this because their citizens they're your neighbors and there throughout the state of Minnesota. (00:04:03) Okay. Well, give us a quick sample. And then (00:04:06) okay, I'll give you a sample from a woman Judith from Minneapolis. I'm speaking to you as a former victim of robbery assault and attempted carjacking we need the means to protect ourselves and our loved ones from rape Serious injury or death at the hands of the criminals who are becoming more violent as time goes by I strongly believe that lives of innocent citizens will be saved if we're allowed to carry a weapon for self-defense someone who was refused a permit by the way in many areas permits are just simply not given no matter what your scenario (00:04:40) is. So this would make it would make it easier than to get a permit. (00:04:44) Well, it would make it. I wouldn't say it's easier you still have to meet the criteria and the criteria has been increased. (00:04:52) Okay Howard orenstein is your group taking a position on Represented Boudreaux Isabel, (00:04:58) our group strongly opposes the bill, but we're not alone in that all of the major law enforcement organizations in Minnesota are also opposing the bill. I think it's kind of ironic. They represent a Boudreaux would try to sugarcoat what she's doing by calling it a little bit of revamping those were her words really what they're doing is taking a sledgehammer to the Public Safety in Minnesota. And that's why all the law enforcement organizations are opposing the bill what it's a bad Bill it goes much further than what she's going to tell you on the air and it takes away all the discretion that police Chiefs and Sheriff's currently have to deny permits to carry a loaded concealed handguns in public for people who have committed very serious abuses against the Public Safety. In fact, it would require Sheriff's to give permits to carry loaded concealed handguns to people who have committed some very serious offenses, like repeat drunk driving. I don't think that we need repeat drunk drivers in, Minnesota. Being required to get permits to carry handguns in public from their Sheriff's it's bad public policy. It's unsafe and I'm really surprised that represent a Boudreaux who's a nice person a good legislator and surprised that she would be associating yourself with that bad legislation like this represented (00:06:14) Boudreaux. Well, we obviously have a very different perspective. I simply trust citizens and I trust that citizens who abide by our laws should have the rights to defend themselves and I will stand by that and I do believe I have a very strong support throughout the state of Minnesota a group of people a group of many citizens who would disagree with representative Ornstein as well as some of the ways that he has tried to describe the bill. I would disagree with his descriptions of (00:06:47) it. Well represent a Boudreaux with the bill not allow a repeat drunk drivers who haven't reached a felony level offense to get permits to (00:06:54) carry. We currently have Laws that allow people to obtain permits based on their exemptions through Section 6 24/7 13. We have a whole section in our statutes that tell us who is who is prohibited from possessing a firearm and we are not changing current law as far as who can possess a firearm. We have numbers hundreds of statutes of law in regard to firearms and how they can be used when and by who we're not changing that we're just simply saying if people meet the requirements if they're trained if they're knowledgeable if the responsible competent, we should not be denying them that (00:07:37) opportunity sure, but what the bill does Gary and NPR listeners is it takes away the discretion of police Chiefs and Sheriff's to deny permits to people who have committed offenses that are not on representative Boudreaux's list. She calls the bill a bill that only would affect law-abiding. Since but in reality, there are many many many Minnesota criminal statutes that can be violated. But under her bill a Minnesota Sheriff would still be required to give permit to carry a loaded concealed handgun in public that people who have broken the law is just truth and I think that she just admitted it and I don't know why (00:08:17) we only did not add don't know why we want to go down and I don't agree with that. I totally disagree with that statement and I think you're you're trying to divert from the whole issue of why Citizens need protection and the state of Minnesota. (00:08:30) Well, I'm asking you represent a Boudreaux under your bill, isn't it? True that sheriff would be required to give a permit to carry a loaded concealed handgun in public to somebody who has committed repeat drunk driving offenses that don't rise to a felony level. Is that true or (00:08:44) false? I think first of all I'd like to take issue with your continued statement of people who carried a concealed loaded weapon. What do you think a handgun is if it's not loaded and I mean you're trying to inflame the whole perspective of a person defending themselves as though it's something they should be ashamed of and I take issue with that. And as far as the sheriff's providing a permit, they would be required to provide a permit to people who meet the eligibility requirements under current law. We're not changing current law. We're not attempting to loosen any current law. We're abiding by our current laws. And as far as the sheriff providing that permit they would also be doing that under the information provided them by any chief of police the sheriff must notify the chief of police in the municipality where the applicant resides and that chief of police doves does have the ability to provide input Regard to who may not be granted a permit whether for what reason they should not be granted that we have it in their language. And as far as another issue that you mentioned. Mr. Ornstein who really, you know, your group sounds as though they're they're looking at really safety for minnesotans. But in actuality you are behind many measures that would take away rights from citizens. And as far as providing safety and protection for themselves in their families, and I totally am in opposed to that kind of a philosophy in Santa (00:10:24) Cruz Howard Howard orenstein. Let me let me shift Focus here just a little bit. Now your folks do have a set of proposals that your ear focused on this year. And as I understand it your primary focus is on trying to make it more difficult well to improve the safety of Firearms that right? What are you trying to do? (00:10:49) Right instead of passing out Concealed Carry Permits like candy to repeat offenders. What we want to do is put some careless statement where we want to put some requirements on future handgun sales in Minnesota. So that those handguns have minimal safety features trigger locks and other devices that would prevent children from getting access to the guns are firing them. What we're looking to do is take Provisions that Smith & Wesson, one of the leading gun manufacturers is already agreed to do with their future handgun sales and we'd like to put those Provisions those child safety Provisions regulatory features on handguns. We'd like to put them into Minnesota state law. So that minnesotans could enjoy the same protection that citizens of Boston and other places are enjoying because of agreements with Smith and (00:11:41) Wesson. Can you give us an idea of how many accidents you estimate would be? Vented each year if your legislation were adopted as you'd like it to be. (00:11:51) Well Smith & Wesson itself is said that there are hundreds of thousands of guns that are stolen every year that they think could the those could be avoided if the guns were locked up and they've identified over a thousand children who are killed with Firearms each year or who commit suicide so there's there could well be hundreds or even a thousand deaths each year that could prevent it be prevented Nationwide with these kinds of safety (00:12:22) features and here in Minnesota that would translate to approximately. How many would you (00:12:27) guess I would just be guessing but it would be quite a few in 1998 carry a hundred and forty-five Minnesota children were injured by firearms and 30 died. So that gives you some some impression of the magnitude of what we're trying to do (00:12:42) representative Boudreaux. Would you support that kind of legislation? (00:12:46) II don't believe that mr. Arnstein has any data to back up his statements as far as his reference to people and young people committing suicide. We do have a problem with that and most suicidal attempts or even completions are due to the fact that people are not treated for depressive illnesses. Now if we take away guns from people, let's say make some law that you just can't have a gun people will find other means to end their lives if that's what their focus is and I really don't see how those statistics play into any kind of of measure for protection. You know, my focus is for citizen (00:13:28) protection, right? What about legislation though? That focus is not on taking away people's guns. But making sure that they're more difficult for kids to access. You've got your trigger locks things like that. (00:13:40) I think we already have current laws that children are not to be handling firearms and Anyone who has the proper training would know that that's not a safe situation. We also have a number of criminals in our state that are possessing guns. They have them in their homes. They may be drug dealers and they have them available to their children. So I would say to you that part of these problems in regard to Children's availability to guns is also a problem with our current violation of laws people. That should not be having guns in the first place but as statistics show, we do not have a high rate of fire arm incidents or done injuries in our state where one of the lowest in the nation in regard to (00:14:27) that. Well, let's get some listeners involved here. We're talking today about proposed gun legislation in the state of Minnesota state representative. Linda Boudreaux has joined us and former state representative Howard Ornstein is with us as well representative. Boudreaux is a sponsoring a bill called. Personal protection Act of 2001 which would change regulations regarding the issuance of permits for handguns in Minnesota and representative former representative hornstein says group citizens for a safer. Minnesota is a proposing legislation which would require among other things mandatory safety locks for guns again, if you'd like to join our conversation number to call is six-five 12276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 22828 Dennis. Go ahead please your question (00:15:20) is to what is Jesse's position on this? And the governor? Is he supporting of these bills (00:15:26) Governor Ventura weighed in one way or the other on any gun legislation this year? (00:15:32) Governor of ensuring the past has said that he favors increasing the ability of people to carry loaded concealed handguns, but he has proposed some very strict training requirements, which I don't think the represented Boudreaux hasn't heard Bill (00:15:46) are those training requirements that the governor has talked about in the past or time Boudreaux. Are they included in your (00:15:51) legislation? I believe we have met all of the requirements that the governor has described in years past. (00:15:59) I can give you Gary an example of the training requirements in represent a Boutros Bill. She says that anybody who has passed a test from any national state or Regional nonprofit organization that certifies firearms safety trainers that person now is trained under her bill. So for example, if there's a rule that's that's what the what the law says. I'm reading it right out of the bill. So if Minnesota Public Radio, which is a real estate nonprofit organization wanted to certify firearm safety trainers those trainers, Go out and qualified people to carry concealed handguns under representative butros (00:16:37) pill. Well safety trainers have to meet the requirements of trainers. Is that what you're saying that the trainers are (00:16:43) qualified? Well, there's nothing in the bill that says what a qualified trainer is, so I guess your guess is as good as mine represent a Boudreaux. (00:16:50) We already know who qualified certified instructors are it does require a person qualifies as a certified instructor if they're certified as a firearm instructor by a variety of different agencies. I don't understand why you would criticize the training now for people who would be providing it. I'm criticizing (00:17:13) what's in the bill and I'm just let me finish. I'm just reading from the bill. The bill doesn't require that the trainer's be certified by certain organizations hit list some examples of organizations, that would be qualified trainers, but really any (00:17:27) organizations require that they be certified as a Firearms instructor. (00:17:32) Der, right but by nobody yes (00:17:35) by the Society of law enforcement trainers by the National Rifle Association or by any state organizations that certify firearm safety trainers by peace officer standards and training boards by the Department of Public Safety. These are viable organizations to criticize them as not being able to provide training. I think it's is simply to get off base of what the whole focus of the (00:18:02) bill is of course a tend to criticize them. I said what was in the bill, which is it any nonprofit organization could call itself a firearm safety trainer, including Minnesota Public Radio or citizens for safer Minnesota or the United Way and the organization like that and under your bill. That would be (00:18:19) sufficient has to be an organization that does certify firearm safety trainers. It doesn't say public radio would be one of those people (00:18:28) could be if they called themselves that these are (00:18:31) worked out we had We had representative Stanek assist us who is a Minneapolis police officer. In fact, he's an investigator at this point. He also assisted Us in working with the language in the bill to assure that it was appropriate. So I think if you want to take issue with that, all right, that's (00:18:53) okay. (00:18:54) Well, let's move on to another question are Akira question (00:18:57) place two points. I think we're getting quite a ways off the track. First of all, I don't think we should consider regulation of guns any differently than we do automobiles. Both of these are sacred cows in our society for cars. We by the way don't call it car control licensing. We require written and behind the wheel testing carrying a picture ID and insurance and annual renewal of the license tabs. We should do the same for handguns or fall firearms for that matter and as far as the permitting for carrying of firearms Arms, if indeed, that is something that our society wants to tolerate that carrying ought to be public out in the open and not (00:19:42) concealed. Okay. Well, let's take these one at a time Howard Ornstein is your group support licensing of (00:19:49) firearms. Yes. We do support licensing and registration. Although that's not something that we are pushing at the legislature. But we along with the million mom March and other National and state organizations do support that we as the caller said we think that dangerous article like a firearm, although people who are not law violators should be allowed to have them in their home or for hunting or for sporting purposes. We think that they should be licensed and regulated like any other dangerous consumer item represented Boudreaux. Good idea. (00:20:27) I'm thinking registration. (00:20:29) I'm sorry I made a technical error here. Yes. Do you think that's a good idea this idea of Licensing? (00:20:36) It's not something that I'm addressing in this bill and generally speaking. No, I'm not advocating for that. (00:20:45) What about now the other question that the caller had in terms of Permitting and carrying handguns. He makes the point that if you're going to allow people to carry weapons, they ought to carry them in in the open not concealed. (00:21:05) Well, I'm not sure that I see a benefit for that. I think the benefit for people who are approved to carry a weapon and think there's a benefit to carry it in a concealed manner that way no one knows who's carrying and I think there's some advantages to that protection can be afforded to others who and criminals who may not know who's carrying. I think that's somehow the success in the 32 other states that do allow people to be permitted for carrying a weapon. The beauty is that you know, violent crime is certainly has decreased in those areas. We have data to substantiate that and in fact, I think it's due to the reason that the criminals are not sure who met who may respond who may try to defend themselves. But in regard to the caller's statement in the language of the bill, in fact, we do use the department of public. Safety as a database for all people who do who are approved to have a permit. So that that of the availability of that information is a 24 hour seven day a week basis and law enforcement may call Department of Public Service and verify as they do with the driver's license check and verify if a citizen is approved to carry, so I think that's that's an important part of making sure that those that information is available to law enforcement but in regard to having a license, there will be an actual hard card with a photo identification on it that will be given to the permittee and I believe that that is helpful in identifying themselves when they're asked and they do have to provide that when asked by law enforcement or in any means to to show that they are able to carry a weapon but as Is the training to I mean we are requiring very I think very thorough training. We need training that will show how to handle a pistol fundamentals of a handgun how to use it and actual shooting qualification exercise. So certainly knowledge about how how to use it and when to use it by the instruction in regard to the legal aspects of self-defense and when people are able to use a weapon to defend themselves and remember most often due to the data that we have in the 32 other states people use a weapon in order to prevent crime from happening. There's not necessarily more people killed and these are only when they're approached by criminals who are trying to harm them most often. There's a deterrent it's a deterrent when crime is a potential to occur. Someone is about to be victimized (00:24:02) good to Terrence Howard arnstein. (00:24:05) Don't think it's a good deterrent at all. In fact of just a couple of weeks ago. There was a retired Detroit police officer who was armed who tried to intervene to stop a masked man who put a gun to her head and demanded money and the the gunman wasn't deterred by that and here was a trained professional Street officer with 25 years experience in the sad ending to the story is that that she was murdered but instance even though she was a pre trained professional and she had a gun on on her (00:24:37) person right now what (00:24:39) law enforcement goes through for training they go through dozens and dozens of hours of out how to respond in these kinds of situations that use of lethal force and what's appropriate response and you can't even guarantee what the law enforcement person that it's going to succeed. These are trained educated people. I think are we going to do with with this legislation where there's no no, the bill doesn't spell out at all what the requirements are for training in the use Lethal Force could be a handout as far as I'm concerned the way the bill is drafted. So there's no deterrent here. In fact, it's much more dangerous to have people walking around with these guns because we found the case of this retired Detroit police officer at probably escalated the the crisis to the point where she ended up dead (00:25:23) quick comment representative Lee, but I think then we have to break from (00:25:26) news. I think all that illustrates is that we have very dangerous criminals out there that are about about harming people and and about violence and if we have no means of Defending ourselves, what can we do absolutely nothing when we come back I would like to read from some of the other women that have written to me about their need and how they have been denied if they'll be a (00:25:50) appropriate. All right, we're talking this our about some proposed gun legislation that Minnesota legislators will be taking up this year one law would make some changes in the way that handgun. Are issued in the state of Minnesota another proposal would require mandatory safety locks among other things for guns in the state of Minnesota different approaches to the issue of guns. And we are talking today with proponents of both pieces of legislation state representative Linda Boudreaux from Faribault and former dfl state representative Howard orenstein who's now president of the group citizens for us safer Minnesota. If you'd like to join our conversations 6512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight two more of your calls here in a couple of minutes programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Sony Pictures Classics presenting Academy award-nominated Pollock the life of art revolutionary Jackson Pollock with Ed Harris and Marcia Gay Harden now playing at the Uptown Theater. (00:26:54) Last week members of Afghanistan's ruling Taliban started destroying historic Mountainside statues of Buddha. The destruction is prompting International outcry and drawing attention to the rigid policies ruling Afghanistan. I'm Juan Williams Afghanistan the Taliban and the outside world. That's the next Talk of the Nation from NPR (00:27:12) news documentation begins at 1 o'clock this afternoon here on Minnesota Public Radio. And by the way, if you are one of the many many people who made a membership pledge to Minnesota Public Radio during the membership drive that just ended we thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And of course, we also urge you to send your payment in right away news headlines. Now, here's got a Cunningham Greta. Good morning. Gary a federal judge is giving Napster just three days to block access to any songs protected by copyright. The move is seen as a victory for the recording industry music industry Executives have been fighting to control digital music. The clock will start ticking as soon as record labels give Napster the list of songs. They want banned from the internet. Song swapping service White House officials say no restrictions have been placed on vice president. Cheney's workload after his latest heart problem. Cheney is out of a Washington Hospital after having an artery fixed and he's expected back to work later this week. Cheney said he felt good as he left the hospital a strong winter storm is causing blizzard-like conditions in parts of the Northeast today at least 700 flights have been delayed at New York's three major airports. The weather is also blamed for seven deadly traffic crashes Taliban troops in Afghanistan have interrupted their destruction of two giant Stone Buddha's to celebrate a Muslim Festival, but they said the demolition will resume when the holiday ends Thursday a Taliban leader has ordered the demolition of all pre-islamic statues in Afghanistan in Regional news. A house panel is taking a look today at the proposed upgrade and expansion of the Dakota Minnesota and Eastern railroad. The railroad wants its to expand its line to haul coal from within oming across South Dakota and Minnesota to the Mississippi River critics of the proposed expansion say Worried about health hazards from coal dust noise and damage to Wetlands Minnesota officials who are part of a working group looking at potential effects, the line presented an interim report to the house Transportation committee this morning. The working group will present its final report later this month the forecast for Minnesota calls for cloudy skies in the west with increasing clouds in the East this afternoon high temperatures today ranging from 25 to 35 degrees at this hour saint-cloud reports Fair Skies a temperature of 23 skies are fair in Rochester 21 degrees Duluth reports Fair skies and 26 degrees and in the Twin Cities still report of a few clouds with a temperature of 29 degrees Gary. That's a check on the latest news. Thanks Greta 24 minutes before noon. This is midday coming to you in Minnesota Public Radio. Today. We're talking about a couple of pieces of gun related legislation that Minnesota legislators will be considering this session. Our guests this our former state representative Howard orenstein who is the president of the group citizens for a safer Minnesota. He is an attorney and Linda Boudreaux is with us. She is the state representative from Faribault. And she's the co-author of a permit bill called the personal protection Act of 2001 which would change in some way the permitting process for handguns in the state of Minnesota ability for people to carry a handgun. Lots of callers on the line represented Boudreaux. I know you wanted to share with us one more brief comment from somebody who supports your legislation. (00:30:22) Yes, I would like to another woman from Minneapolis area. And these are these are all letters that I have received. I have such a thick file of letters that I have received from folks. I had no idea how much support there would be throughout the state for just the idea of people being able to defend themselves and protect themselves. This is from someone who lives in the Philips neighborhood in South Minneapolis student at the U. There's a period where there was a series of assaults and rapes around the you and by the way, Our statistics have shown us that we have an increased amount of that going on at our campuses. There's I wasn't much concerned until my roommate was kidnapped in front of our home forced into a car driven across town and raped by several men. I had no car hundred and five pounds did not know martial arts and had to walk to and from the bus at least two blocks often late at night. But on the other hand I had been in the military with the sharpshooter's badge for m16a1 rifle Marksmanship and a security clearance. In other words. I knew how to handle a gun safely and competently she applied for a permit to protect herself from the likely possibility of retaliation and even cited her roommates case but was denied based on insufficient need and her statement of defending myself against kidnapping and rape doesn't constitute sufficient need. What does (00:31:42) well Howard Ornstein makes a seems to make a good case for represented budro was built. (00:31:48) Well Gary. I just want to say I think the Boudreaux is sincerely interested in what her view is protecting women and I think she sincerely interested in only having law-abiding people carry weapons and I need to say that the problem is in her approach. There are anecdotes like the one she gives but there's there's study analyzing FBI data which shows that for every time a woman uses a handgun to kill in self-defense a hundred and one women Diane handgun murders. So I don't think that that approach is going to work very well in terms of only having a law-abiding people get these guns. It's just not the way the bill is written and and we've seen examples in other states where bills like this of past where it's not just the law-abiding people in Texas, Texas concealed carry licenses were arrested for nearly two crimes a day since the law was passed that's according to a study by the violence policy Center. Some of the crimes for which concealed carry license holders were arrested include 15 charges of murder or attempted murder six charges of kidnapping or false imprisonment 28 charges of rape or sexual assault. So these permit holders are getting guns and they're using them to commit more crimes in Texas concealed handgun license holders were arrested for weapons offenses at a rate of more than twice that of the state's general population. I (00:33:17) can't sir. This is (00:33:18) lives (00:33:20) where Texas criteria (00:33:22) problem. The representative Boudreaux is trying to solve doesn't get solved by her bill what happens with her bill is police Chiefs and Sheriff's become instrumentalities of handing out Concealed Carry Permits that are then going to be used to commit more (00:33:34) crimes. But since you did mention, Texas, you did not mention that people who have permits in the state of Texas are seven times less likely to commit crimes than the average citizen. So I think you failed to mention that I mean, we can always find a exceptions to things and they're always You know exceptions to any case as far as someone who is abusing their privilege, but I think those folks certainly should be punished for that and I believe they would be or have been but to try to to revamp the statistics, you still have to stand by the fact that seven times less likely to commit a crime than the average citizen. That's a very high standard and I'd say the percentages are very low with people with permits and I have data to justify the everywhere (00:34:21) can't get away from the fact that the bill does require permits to be granted to a lot of people who are not law-abiding and that's the fundamental (00:34:29) flaw. I guess I'm different. Mention about the police the police organizations law enforcement organizations being opposed to the bill. Yes. I will tell you that. I receive more letters from police officers and retired officers who support the provision. In fact, I've got a signed letter from to Minneapolis police officers that I will be passing around at the hearings that states they don't agree with the rank-and-file membership nor do many of their colleagues and the fact that they believe due to the fact we're collecting over a thousand firearms from criminals in the city of mini Minneapolis in one year. We're taking them off of people who have committed crimes. I think that indicates we have an unbalanced within our city (00:35:33) folks. I'm going to interrupt here because I'd like to get some callers on the line yet. Okay. Tim's up next go ahead Tim (00:35:40) High representative hornstein. I takes a great exception to your characterization of senators Boudreaux's proposition to change the carry law. I don't know if you've ever played. For a carry permit, but there is a very stringent standard involved and I don't think the standards are changing. What is changing is what you characterize is taking the power away from the individual police Chiefs and sheriffs and putting it into one standardized subjective not object of look at the issuing the permits you're totally missing the point on this law. What it is is applying an equal standard for everyone not just up to the individual women discretion of a police chief who could be, you know, unfairly denying people from carrying a weapon who may well need one. (00:36:33) Okay. Thanks Tim Howard orenstein if in some way or other the the restrictions as to who is granted a permit were changed a tad too to meet your concerns. Would you then support a uniform Statewide standard? That the presumption is that people if they meet those standards they get a permit no matter where they (00:36:56) lived. Well, I just want to make clear that I don't think the provisions could be changed at add in your words carry to satisfy. My concerns there that bill is deeply deeply flawed and that is why you can never write a bill that would take away discretion totally from law enforcement. You need that discretion. Here's an example of (00:37:16) somebody are there people walking around the state of Minnesota who have been granted a permit who shouldn't have a gun right now with concealed weapons (00:37:25) that could well be true. Although if we're not I'm not advocating changing our current law, but I'm sure that there are people under current law who slipped through the system and that's why we need to keep some discretion with law enforcement to make sure that they can enforce (00:37:41) this representative Boudreaux. Would you support tightening up the existing permitting procedures the standards as it were to make sure that The bad guys don't end up with (00:37:54) guns. I think we have tightened it up. And I do believe that this bill has taken into consideration a lot of the law enforcement concerns. As I said, it was worked out between law enforcement and Advocates and law enforcement representative represented by our legislator who is a Minneapolis police officer and I don't think that we have a system in regard to providing permits that is is very fair as I mentioned. And so we have been using the discretion which really in many communities. There is no permitting they're just simply is no permitting (00:38:31) what in the in the counties are in the cities where there is permitting. You're confident that no nobody who shouldn't have a gun is getting a gun. (00:38:40) I'd be more confident if the training requirements and the background checks in the persons that are prohibited in this bill were followed. I would be much more comfortable with it. (00:38:52) Mary Louise grow is on the line from Northfield. Go ahead. And marry (00:38:56) before I ask my question of Representative Boudreaux. And and mr. Arnstein. I do just have to go back to what representative Boudreaux said about permit holders being seven times more law-abiding in Texas because that simply flies in the face of all the statistics and all the facts the violence policy (00:39:15) Center. I've let's not let's not get bogged down in (00:39:18) statistics on permit holding population. So I don't I just can't let that stand but my question for representative Boudreaux and before she answers it I also have one for mr. Orenstein is what other groups besides the National Rifle Association or their front organizations such as carry concealed reform now support her bill. She mentions that it's widely supported but I think it was 1998. Minnesota exit polls showed overwhelmingly that the, Minnesota population. Does not want this bill and I'm also wondering how she will feel about people's carrying concealed loaded handguns into the capital. Will there be any safety precautions if this bill passes and if so, why should lawmakers be more protected from people carrying concealed weapons than the rest of us. My question for. Mr. Ornstein is isn't this a terrible slap in the face to law enforcement. It seems to me that what representative Boudreaux is saying is that law enforcement can't protect people and that people have to become Vigilantes and sort of armed posses of one in order to keep themselves safe. All right, I would just like to say that Miss grow and mr. Hornstein are part of the handgun control group and probably helped organize as he mentioned the million mom march yesterday, which a whole maybe 10 15 people attended. I would say the support comes for this built from this bill from citizens throughout the state of Minnesota and I can demonstrate that by I probably have an inch to inch and a half thick pile of letters that I have received and I read a couple of them. I'd be happy to read more of them. This is a widespread supportive effort by many citizens who feel they want the ability to protect themselves and their (00:41:16) families. Would there be any special Provisions for the state capitol? (00:41:21) There is nothing mentioned here in restricting and I'm not sure what current law states about state property, but I don't I guess I'm not prepared to answer whether or not there is a restriction for that, but I'm concerned And and restricting areas of generally because we are then restricting an area from the ability to protect yourself. So we have self-defense free zones. You can't defend yourself in certain areas. And and one of some of the many of those are the school areas and look what's happened there representing Boudreaux. (00:41:57) Let me ask you this question. I'm going to get to this other question for Howard Ornstein, but are you comfortable personally with a notion of a bar full of people at midnight loaded everybody carrying (00:42:07) guns? What is that supposed to mean? Well if (00:42:12) people are able to get a permit for a handgun and a lot of people do and they end up in a bar at midnight as people do is that that Spectre has been raised. Is that something that concerns you at all bunch of people who maybe have had too much to (00:42:28) drink are you talking to me? Yes, I don't think first of all that people that Carry Permits are drinking at midnight at bars. And in fact in the provision in the language, it says that no person may carry a pistol in a public place honor about their clothes or person while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled substance. So they're prohibited from doing that if they're drinking and if they're they're having a Coke, I certainly think they should be able to protect themselves as long as they're following the law people that are not following the law is the problem (00:42:59) today. Okay now, mr. Arnstein the question has to do with how this relates to police protection. The police are Are among the first to admit that they can't really protect everybody doesn't represent a Boudreaux's approach here at least give people an option some way to protect themselves. If they happen to be the unfortunate person who falls through the cracks and is attacked by some person. (00:43:27) Well, if you think that more guns on the street or going to make us safer than you probably like this bill, but I think every study that's ever been done has shown that guns are more likely to be used to hurt you then to protect you and that's why all the law enforcement organizations oppose this legislation Gary. I think your question goes to the nub of the debate about bars the Metrodome the Xcel Energy Center are we really going to feel safer in a bar? If we think that a lot of people are carrying weapons do we really want the Metrodome to be a place where people are acting in self-defense with Firearms? I don't think that minnesotans would feel safer in the Metrodome or in a bar under those. Circumstances and that's why 77 percent of minnesotans opposed this type of legislation and a recent survey by Minnesota law and (00:44:18) politics but it would be illegal if you were drinking to (00:44:21) become represented bucho did not accurately characterize your filter. She read she readily the second she read from it, but then she mischaracterized it. No, I didn't know that you can't have a pistol on you if you're under the influence of alcohol, but it doesn't Define what that is. And so for example, somebody could have one drink two drinks maybe a big guy could have three or four drinks. When does the person know that he's under the influence of alcohol? And how at that point is he going to have the judgment to say up? My permit to carry is no longer valid. I think that that's laughable and it's just shows how flawed the bill (00:44:56) is. I think what's laughable Howard is the fact that your poles and what you're quoting of data, which you really you can find data to justify or substantial substantiate any particular. Meant that you want to take I have polls that show otherwise and I have data from other states Who currently have these laws that show that that justify the data that I have and you attended the hearings in 99. We had a couple of hearings. In fact, you testified against the provision and we had well over 500 people at the Hamlin hearing which at about 450 of those were supporters of the bill. So I guess the the certainly your statistics are not very accurate. If only 50 people came to attend a hearing that was very well publicized that supported your private provision are your issues. (00:45:47) I've been to a lot of legislative hearings and the number of people in the audience are not necessarily reflective of the north of the goal. I think we (00:45:53) can get very and indicate of of liquid are (00:46:00) loaded concealed handguns. (00:46:08) On that lets citizens defend themselves. Let citizens have an option for protection if they feel they need it. Don't take away everything for ability to self defend and we already know the criminals are carrying. They're out there. They're at the Metrodome Howard. They're everywhere you've mentioned the criminals are (00:46:26) there. Well, we are unfortunately about out of time here, but I wanted to ask each of you whether or not when the dust settles here. Obviously Lively debate and controversial issues at do you think any changes in gun? Minnesota's gun laws are likely this session Howard Ornstein. (00:46:49) I think that we ought to be able to pass something that would not be controversial that would simply say put regular consumer product safety standards on future sales of handguns. I don't know why anybody would oppose that if we can stay away from the controversial stuff that represent a Boudreaux is proposing and stick with stuff that that I think makes common sense and will protect her children. I think we could pass something but if it turns out to be something bad, I hope it's not past represented (00:47:17) Boudreaux. I certainly am not advocating to changing any of our current laws. We have hundreds of laws that seemed to be already on the books and seem to be effective. If only we enforce them. I am looking at changing the permitting system to allow people to allow opportunities for people in the whole state to obtain a permit if they meet the requirements of doing so for the option to defend themselves, and that's what this is all about. It's not about gun laws. It's not about polls. It's about people calling writing emailing me saying please let me defend (00:47:53) myself. Thanks a lot for joining us. Appreciate it. Thank you, Gary and talking with me. Thank you. Our guests this our Olinda Boudreaux who's a state representative from Faribault and sponsor of a bill that would change Minnesota's gun permitting laws also with us former state representative Howard Ornstein president of citizens for a safer Minnesota. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. The incomparable Italian singer Powell county (00:48:18) has never really liked his voice for admissibility (00:48:20) can't I Sing Because I write my own songs, and I want (00:48:23) to pay direct testimony to them. (00:48:25) But in reality wouldn't mind if someone else saying (00:48:28) And requested a horrible you compare them defecting and Telemundo Alicante is touring the US and he's with us today on all things considered from NPR news by tackle are (00:48:40) all things considered begins each weekday here on Minnesota Public Radio at three o'clock.