(00:00:24) Good morning, and welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us. Well as expected President Clinton used his State of the Union Address last night to lay out an expansive list of proposals that he hopes will become law this year and as expected Republican members of Congress are indicating that many of those proposals shouldn't and will not become law this year. The president's gun-related proposals may fall in both categories president last night outlined a series of gun related measures Common Sense gun legislation as he put it some of which received bipartisan support like his call for tougher enforcement of existing laws. Some of which are being roundly criticized like his proposal that people who want to buy a handgun first get a license today on. Midday were going to take a closer look at the president's plans. We've been joined today by former Minnesota state representative Howard Ornstein who is president of the board of citizens for a safer Minnesota, which describes itself as a Statewide coalition. Listen that lobbies for reasonable gun regulations joining us from Washington is Joel Aldrin who is executive director or the citizens committee for the right to keep and bear arms. And as always we invite you to join our conversation as well. Give us a call here. We're going to be talking about the President Clinton's gun-related proposals. And if you'd like to join in six, five, one two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 22828 before we get started with our discussion. Let's hear what the president had to say. Last night crime in America is dropped for the past seven years. That's a long as the clown on record. Thanks to a national consensus. We helped to forge on Community Police and it will gun safety laws and effective prevention. But nobody nobody here. Nobody in America (00:02:13) believes. We're safe enough. (00:02:15) So again, I ask you to set a higher goal. Let's make this country the safest big country in the (00:02:20) world. Now last (00:02:26) fall Congress supported my plan to hire in addition to the hundred (00:02:30) thousand Community Police. We've already (00:02:31) funded 50,000 more concentrated in high-crime. Neighborhoods asked your continued support for that. Soon after the Columbine tragedy Congress considered common sense gun legislation to require Brady background checks at the gun shows child safety locks for new handguns and a ban on the importation of large (00:02:55) capacity ammunition (00:02:57) Clips with courage and a tie-breaking vote for the vice president. The Senate face down the gun (00:03:05) lobby stood up to the American people (00:03:09) and pass this legislation. But the house failed to follow suit now, we have all seen what happens when God's fall into the wrong hands. Daniel Mauser was only 15 years old when he was gunned down at Columbine. He was an amazing kid straight A student a good skier. Like all parents and lose their children his father Tom has born unimaginable grief. Somehow he has found the strength to honor his son by transforming his grief into action earlier this month. He took a leave of absence from his job to fight for tougher gun safety laws. I pray that his courage and wisdom will at long last move this Congress to make Common Sense gun legislation the very next order of (00:04:12) business. (00:04:33) We must strengthen our gun laws and enforce those already on the books (00:04:37) better. Federal (00:04:46) Federal Gun crimes prosecutions are up 16% since I took office, but we must do more. I proposed to hire more Federal and local gun prosecutors and more ATF agents to crack down on illegal gun traffickers and Bad Apple dealers and we must give them the enforcement tools that they need tools to trace every gun in every bullet used in every gun crime in the United States. I (00:05:09) asked you to help us do that. (00:05:24) Every state in this country already requires hunters and automobile drivers to have a license. I think they ought to do the same thing for handgun (00:05:30) purchases. now specifically (00:05:42) specifically I proposed a plan to ensure that all new handgun buyers must first have a photo license from their state showing they passed the Brady background check and a gun safety course before they get the gun. I hope you'll help me pass (00:05:55) that in this Congress. Listen to this. (00:06:04) Listen to this the accidental gun rate the accidental gun death rate of children under 15 in the United States. He is nine times higher. That in the other 25 industrialized countries combined. Now Technologies now exists. It could lead to guns that can only be fired by the adults who own them. I asked Congress to fund Research into smart gun (00:06:35) technology to say these children's lives. (00:06:51) I asked responsible leaders in the gun industry to work with us on smart guns and other steps to keep guns out of the wrong hands to keep our children safe. That was President Clinton speaking last night to a joint session of Congress part of his State of the Union Address now, we're going to talk some more about the gun. The president's gun-related proposals. Once again joining us is former st. Paul state representative Howard Ornstein president of the board of citizens for a safer Minnesota. And also with us is Joe Waldron executive director of the gun rights advocacy group the citizens committee for the right to keep and bear arms. He joins us from Bellevue, Washington again, we invite you to join our conversation, six five. One two, two seven six thousand. That's our Twin City area number six five, one two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities 1 800 800 to for 228286512276 thousand or 1-800 to for 228280. Aldrin Howard orenstein. Thanks for joining us this morning. (00:07:52) Good morning, Gary. Good morning, Gary Howard. (00:07:55) Mr. Waldron. Let me start with you seem to be lots of support last night among members of Congress. Or the president's proposals for tougher gun law enforcement president apparently wants to hire another 500 ATF agents thousand prosecutors to focus on gun-related violence in your mind. Would that make a significant difference in gun violence in America? (00:08:23) Well Gary last summer of Syracuse University in New York released a study showing that gun law violations prosecutions under the Clinton administration had declined 44% from those in the Bush Administration. So the bottom line is I think it's about time the president jumped on board this if I have any reservations at all about the president's proposal to do this, it would be the hope that they focus on the people who are committing crimes with Gardens and not people who unwittingly in many cases commit technical violations. Let's focus on the criminals. I have absolutely no problem with (00:08:56) that Howard orenstein. Do you see any downside to that at all? (00:09:00) I don't see any downside to the stronger enforcement. Just think that it's only part of the solution. I think that we not only need to better enforce our existing laws, but we need to close some of the loopholes in those laws that are allowing convicted felons and others to get handguns when the the public doesn't want those folks to have (00:09:20) handguns can the criminal justice system assuming that prosecutors are rounding up violators, right and left can the criminal justice system handle all the additional people who would be moving through the system. (00:09:36) Well, that's always an issue that comes up where we have passed a very strong minimum sentencing for gun related offenses. But then we find that there's not the prison space for it. So I think your question is a sound one and it just reminds us that this is an entire Criminal Justice System problem and can't just be solved by putting money one place or (00:09:59) another now while there was fairly broad support or seeming broad support for the president's proposal to crack down on or to enforce existing gun laws a lot less enthusiasm for his idea that we should start licensing people who buy handguns. Mr. Waldron. I assume that you're not enthusiastic about that plan. Am I right? (00:10:27) Well, let's let's establish a couple of terms first as Howard will knows politics is the art of compromise and when I look in my dictionary cop My eyes means that if I make concessions to you if I agree to go along with you on one of your proposals you're going to make concessions to me when viewed in that light. I think that the issue the car gun analogy is worth discussing as a minimum. For example, there's no requirement for a driver's license. There is no requirement for a federal background check simply to buy an automobile. If you keep a motor vehicle and operate it on your property as we have tens of thousands of farm vehicles in the state of Washington and I suspect many in Minnesota as well again, there is no federal or state intervention on how you do that on the other hand if I choose to operate my motor vehicle on the streets and highways of Washington. I have to be licensed in the vehicle has to be registered. Well, I would hope that what the president meant by that is that if I want to keep a gun at home for home protection, there's no federal involvement. Certainly, there is no excuse under the US Constitution for the feds to get involved on the other hand. Should I choose to carry? Firearm off of my premises I can do so with the license with the firearm being registered and by having conducted that or accomplish that I could then travel freely all over the country as I can with my automobile. I could visit Washington DC I could visit New York City or I could visit Minneapolis and know that my firearm owner ID card or whatever you call it, my gun license and my registered handgun is good to go anywhere in the country. Just like an automobile powered orenstein. Well, I couldn't quite follow all the false premises that were with it were in. Mr. Waldron see some options there. But I think whether what he's saying is that if you got one of these licenses that the president is proposing, then you could freely carry your concealed handgun anywhere in public. That's not what we allow for cars, you know, we don't just say you get your driver's license. You can do anything you want with your car. We have speed limits. We have laws against driving while intoxicated we require people to wear safety belts. We only let him drive on the streets. We don't let them take their cars into the Metrodome and I guess he's probably proposing that you be able to carry your concealed handgun into the Metrodome. So I just I think that his analogies broke down way before they even got started and and they don't really inform the debate on this licensing (00:13:00) issue. Can we set aside the analogy for just a moment? Mr. Waldron? And is there do you have Problem will excuse me. Do you have a problem with the basic concept of people being required to get a license before they buy a handgun. (00:13:14) I have a problem with a Fed with Federal intervention in the exercise of both a constitutional right and scholarly research more than 90 percent of Articles published in the law reviews across the United States in the last 20 years agree that the Second Amendment at the federal level protection individual right 44 of our state constitutions clearly and certainly protect the individual way to Arms. I have a problem with the the federal government intervening in that exercise of a civil right and beyond that it is a fundamental right which even the Supreme Court says is a right that predates the constitution nor is it dependent on that? So in principle, yes, I have a problem with it. Let's talk about the Practical side of it further into the (00:13:58) conversation. Okay. Is there a difference in your mind between the requirements of the Brady Bill? Versus a licensing procedure. (00:14:10) Well, you know, it's interesting. The Brady act requires a background check in order to purchase a firearm as a quick aside. We've already seen the FBI violate the intent of Congress the explicit intent in The Brady act in terms of retaining purchase data on the people who purchase these Firearms. So again, these are kind of the kind of mechanical problems I have with what you're talking about, but the interesting thing is many states and Washington state is one of them have a concealed pistol licensing system and I didn't mention concealed earlier. I just said take it from state to state have a licensing system. Whereby I am waived the background check requirement because I have already been subjected to the background check and fact a much broader background check to include fingerprint submission, and I'm good to go. Now. The president is also on record and the Houses on record as having stated that even with the Brady background check they want to reimpose a waiting period on the the purchase of firearms. Why what's the purpose of it? Again? This is where we get into the good faith negotiation (00:15:20) problem. Explain a little further in terms of (00:15:24) the bottom line is let me let me put it in terms that may sound a little irreverent but I think get the point across back in 1991 92 93. Sarah Brady was running around the halls of Congress telling people look if you'll just pass the Brady handgun violence protection safety act. I can go home and bake chocolate chip cookies for Jim knowing that I've done my part to make a safer America. So in the fall of 1993 Congress relented and gave Mrs. Brady what she said she wanted four months later Mrs. Brady was out on the steps of the Capitol building promoting Brady to which goes much further and much further what I'm saying is if we agree to something if we agree to a compromise, I expect you down the road to hold up your end of the agreement not to continue the slippery slope process of I will negotiate with you to get what I can get today and then tomorrow will renegotiate to get a little bit more and then the next year will bring negotiate to get a little bit more and that's exactly the history of gun control in this country it is One of a continual loss of what was once viewed as largely and I don't mean entirely largely an absolute right? There are no purely absolute rights, but it was largely an absolute right and all we see the direction that this is headed is in the loss of those rights the further restrictions on those rights with very little return given and return to the citizen (00:16:44) Howard orenstein. Why would we need a licensing procedure if we already have the background check so presumably they're sorting out the good guys from the bad guys. (00:16:53) Sure. I'd like to answer that and it's some point maybe correct some of the mistakes moments that mr. Waldron just made but I'll answer your question first Carry in Minnesota. We essentially have a photo licensing system already and it helps in the instances where it's used what it does is it stops felons from getting guns through the use of a false identification because when you go to buy a handgun, In Minnesota, if you do it from a licensed dealer, you have to show your driver's license or another valid Minnesota photo ID. And then again, when once you have your permit to purchase a handgun under Minnesota's licensing law before you can go and buy a handgun from a licensed dealer you have to show a photo ID again. So we have much of what the president has proposed working in Minnesota. There are two pieces of it though that could make the system even better and help protect felons and others from others who aren't qualified to have handguns under Minnesota law from having them. The first piece is the training piece. The president has proposed that people who want to purchase handguns show proof that they can use them responsibly and that's not currently in our law except for juveniles. And I think that that would be an improvement in just a common sense thing to make sure that people who have these weapons are trained to Then the second thing that the president has proposed it's not currently in Minnesota law is closing some of the loopholes in our hand gun purchase laws as I mentioned before under current law that the background checks in the requirement for a license only apply if you get your guns from a licensed dealer, but there are a lot of unlicensed gun sellers around specifically at these gun shows that happen around the country including In Minnesota where you have a lot of Cowboys going out there getting weapons and there are not the same kinds of background recheck requirements from these unlicensed dealers. It's perfectly legal and we need to close that loophole because a lot of criminals and others get their guns through these unlicensed dealers and there's nothing right now under state or federal law that prohibits it for example in Columbine, which is an example that most of us still have fresh in our The investigation by the government found that all for the weapons that were used in that shooting it passed through the hands of unlicensed dealers at gun shows. So we have to keep in mind that what the president is proposing for. The license is not just that people get the license but the president has also proposed closing this Gun Show loophole. So that purchases at gun shows would also be subject to the background checks that that provision actually passed the United States Senate last year. I think was 79 votes out of a hundred and a majority of both parties, but the house never took it up, so that's that's a long answer but I think it's a complicated issue that doesn't just stop at the president's particular proposal here on (00:20:03) licensing. What about the slippery? Slope argument that mr. Waldron makes that over time people keep chipping away at Second Amendment rights on this (00:20:15) issue. Well with all due respect to mr. Walter and I think that that's that's not a valid argument first of In the history of our Republic only one federal court has held that there is a Second Amendment right that might invalidate a gun control law. And that's at that was a one Federal District Court. The Supreme Court has never held that nor is any court of appeals in the federal system. So that that interpretation of the Constitution simply is not a valid one second of all the notion that mr. Waldron races that there have been some sort of negotiated compromise for the Brady Bill or any of these other gun control laws is just laughable groups like mr. Waldron Seth fought those proposals tooth and nail. I think that the Brady Bill passed Congress by maybe one or two votes. If I remember same with the assault weapon, ban, these were not negotiated compromises when you have a negotiate a compromise then there's something to fall back on and say yes, we cut a deal we live with it. But when these bills are passed over the opposition of groups like mr. Waldron is I don't think that there is any Anything that that says that Sarah Brady or others cannot go back and continue to fight for what they believe in that. I think that's just silly. It's not a rule that the NRA or mr. Waldron is group lives by so I think it's just a political game playing when he raises a point like (00:21:37) that. We're going to have to break for some news headlines and I want to get to our callers. We have a whole Bank of callers, but mr. Waldron no agreements. As far as Howard Ornstein was concerned no agreements pre agreements were (00:21:52) reached. I'm surprised that mr. Hornstein is a former legislator doesn't appreciate the fact that Brady passed by more than 30 votes and it passed by more than 30 votes after the National Rifle Association brokered the instant check compromise with Senator Dole. That's how Brady passed in the first place and Brady has been violated the slippery slope. Mr. Orenstein laid out as he was talking here. He talks about the alleged Gun Show loophole and of course if the Gun Show loophole should it exist is closed. We then get into the private. Lupo and it goes on down the path that I would tell you not to go down the path that I would add to so we prevent convicted again, which is asleep. He said like gentlemen get that now, but I can get it later on but let me let me have this now something else. Mr. Arnstein brought up that needs to be talked about the guns used in Columbine were in fact brought bought at a gun show from an individual who was not a federally licensed dealer. However, all of those guns were legally purchased and had the individuals who bought those guns and the individual who bought the handgun by the way mark means is the son of an HCI activists had he gone to a gun shop had Miss Anderson gone to a gun shop to buy the gun. She bought both of them would have passed the background check. So the fact that the Columbine guns came from a gun show has absolutely nothing to do with the availability of those Firearms the president and other people are shamelessly exploiting the Columbine incident. The president went on the attack on gun shows after the 1998 election. They're just trying to exploit Columbine and the words we've heard today or classic example of (00:23:23) All right, we're talking this our about President Clinton's gun proposals outlined last night in the State of the Union Address our guests this our Joe Waldron who is executive director of the gun rights advocacy group the citizens committee for the right to keep and bear arms. He joins us from Bellevue Washington and joining for joining us from st. Paul is a former state representative Howard orenstein president of the board of citizens for a safer Minnesota, which group which lobbies for gun regulations in the state of Minnesota. We have a whole Bank of callers here and want to get the some callers and continue our conversation and we will do that in just a couple of minutes. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include the Bayport Foundation, which is supported by the Anderson Corporation and the Honeywell Foundation providing the benefits of control worldwide. This week on A Prairie Home Companion Cajun music from Michael to say and beausoleil making their annual trip for winter. And st. Paul Butch Thompson cellist law rasul music by Joseph lamb the news from Lake Wobegon and more all on this week's show listen for Prairie Home Companion Saturday afternoon at 5:00 on all NPR stations. And again Sunday at noon on Minnesota Public Radio KN o WF M 91.1 in the Twin Cities by the way over the noon hour today. Well, we'll see how it turns out world famous mime. Yes, Mom. I'm Marcel Marceau is at the national Press Club and we're assured that he will in fact speak. Not sure what language he'll speak in should be a fascinating program and we'll have that over the noon hour today live from the national Press Club right now. Some news headlines here surely idols and Shirley. Thank you Gary new poll numbers out of New Hampshire show. Al Gore holding his lead over Bill Bradley. Fifty four to forty percent on the Republican side the Dartmouth College Associated Press poll has John McCain and George W bush in a tight race just days before the first presidential primary after hammering, Mississippi and Arkansas with more than a foot of snow a winter storm has moved on to Georgia. There have been a number of traffic accidents on icy roads and organizers of Sunday's Super Bowl game in Atlanta are worried about storm-related disruptions this weekend attorney general Janet Reno gets a briefing this afternoon from the nun who brought together Elian Gonzalez and his grandmother's sister. Jean O'Loughlin thinks the Cuban boy should remain in the u.s. Reno believes. He should go home to Cuba in Regional news about 1800 hourly workers at Ford's assembly plant in st. Paul will receive a record average eight thousand dollars in profit sharing for $19.99 that surpasses the 1998 average of 60 $100. The checks will be distributed nationally to about one hundred nine thousand workers on March 3rd. The st. Paul plant makes Ranger pickup trucks Minnesota Farmers have a chance to let their voices be heard by taking part in the 1999 National agricultural economics survey State agriculture commissioner. Jean Hugo since says lawmakers and others rely on the surveys when making decisions that affect the future of American farmers and ranchers some 1100 Minnesota Farmers will be contacted in February and March each one representing 70 Farmers results will be published later this year checking the state forecast today. Mostly sunny highs from the upper teens in the North to the middle 20s in the South tonight increasing clouds in the southwest with a slight chance of light snow late in the evening mostly clear elsewhere those from Five Below in the north to 10 above in the South and that's news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm surely Edelson. Thanks Shirley its 27 minutes before noon. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio this hour, we're talking about the gun-related proposals outlined by President Clinton in his State of the Union Address last night the one that's Getting most of the attention is the president's call for licensing of anybody who they'd have to be in issued of anybody who wants to buy a handgun would have to be issued a photo ID by the state's presumably according to the White House. The requirement would not be mandatory on the states, but it's already generating lots of controversy and joining us this hour to talk about the proposals Joe Waldron who's with the citizens committee for the right to keep and bear arms and Howard Ornstein who's with the citizens for a safer Minnesota lots of callers on the line and I do want to get to the callers but one kind of dumb question for you Gentlemen, please before we get further down the road here besides licensing. The other thing we hear about a lot Senator Bradley for example says it all gun should be registered. What's the difference between licensing and registration shorthand description (00:28:14) Gary. This is Howard Shore. And description licensing licenses the owner and registration tracks the weapon. So they are two separate things just like your you have a license to drive your car and your car is registered. They're two separate things. Okay. And then that was I believe this is Joe. That was I believe the invalid analogy that Howard mentioned earlier Howard's noted that my comments on the cargo analogy were invalid and I'm just making the point that he use the same analogy in reference to what is meant by licensing and registration. (00:28:46) That's all and the idea. Go ahead. (00:28:49) Well, I was just gonna say I there are analogies between guns and cars. I'm not saying that it's improper to analogize them. In fact, I think in many ways they should be regulated as consumer products, but I'm not I'm not saying that the regulation should be identical which is the point that mr. Waldron made earlier, which I said was a false premise. (00:29:07) Okay, and the idea behind registration of a gun as opposed to the licensing of the owner, what would be The advantage or disadvantage one way or the other on (00:29:19) that? Well, the advantage certainly is it would make it much easier to track weapons that are used in crimes and it would make it easier to solve crimes and presumably easier to deter criminals from passing guns. Illegally, (00:29:35) mr. Waldron, (00:29:36) which is which is interesting because in most places that have in fact had gun registration in the past, they are found to be a major drain on police resources and offer very very little in terms of crime solving. In fact, New Zealand did away with a major part of its gun registry simply because it was not at all cost effective Canada right now is going through the hurdle of complete gun registration under their law c68 and they're finding that that costs have outstripped the estimates by about 300% We're talking now into the hundreds of millions of dollars in the program is only beginning to be implemented and they're losing police officers left and right from being out on the street where they should be to prevent crime and to solve And putting them into administrative duties to handle a situation where in the United States for example more than ninety nine and a half percent of firearms are never used in a crime. (00:30:32) Okay. Well, let's get to some callers here with questions about the president's proposal. And again, we should emphasize the president last night did not call for gun registration. He did call though for the licensing of people who would buy handgun Tom your first go ahead, please (00:31:15) most of these handguns that we're talking about. So I'm not quite sure who the these gun lobbyists people represent. They really can't represent the Sportsman very much because most of these things absolutely can't be used for sporting events. And the other the other comment. I'd like to Quick make is For Better or For Worse. I bought a couple of three assault white but rifles before the band went on for collectors items now my wife who absolutely hates guns, if I put this assault rifle in her hand, she has this ramble experience that goes through here it her and everybody you put an assault rifle in their hand. It's not like you put a hunting rifle in their hand when you put a salt rifle into something happens to a person and even to people who don't like guns who really hate guns. They have the same experience. So my point is most of these guns have no point and the gun lobby needs to start working with our legislators to get rid of some of these guns and become more The buses to society rather than adding to some of the problems that we have in society. (00:32:25) Okay, Joe Aldrin care to respond. (00:32:27) All right, incredible comments no point in most of these guns and in the collar goes into various sporting applications to begin with the Second Amendment isn't about hunting it isn't about target shooting. It is about a balance of power between the people and the government. That's what it's always been about. There is no constitutional protection for hunting. Although. In fact, there is legitimate sporting used for many of these so-called assault weapons. I shoot an AR-15 in registered high-power rifle competition and it is the most accurate firearm out of the box available for that form of competition. As far as the the comment that you put an assault weapon into someone's hands and quote something happens to them unquote if I find that incredible, I'd love to get a psychiatrist in to talk with the collar because there is no psychiatric basis for that. There is no evidentiary basis that This what happens in fact, the availability of firearms has very little to do with crimes in areas of the country where Firearms are more available and in Parts within an individual state where Firearms are more available crime is almost invariably lower than it is in the areas where Firearms were less (00:33:37) available Howard r&c. (00:33:40) Well, I just think we need to times comments weren't directed to me, but I think we need to listen more to people in the general population. Like Tom who have had experiences that they want to share with lawmakers rather than having paid lobbyists and others kind of spout the party line all the time. Tom makes some very good points from his own personal experience and instead of listening to those points. Mr. Waldron belittled them and suggested that Tom speak with a psychiatrist. So I think one of the reasons why we have not been able to get good common-sense regulations enacted in this country is that there's a lot of Firepower so to speak The lobbyists and people with a lot of money from the NRA and other organizations who shut down the voices of the moms and dads who I talked to who stand on the sidelines at soccer games and hockey games and they don't want folks arming themselves with that concealed handguns in the like when they're out in public. We need to listen to those kinds of common-sense voices (00:34:39) more Mark your question, please Yes your honor (00:34:46) the number of crimes that are committed by handgun by the relation to the population. It isn't even one percent and I think if I think the larger question here is why do 99% of the population have to change anything they're doing they cause less than 1% is called is our criminal element if the if the laws that are on the books we're for strictly I will can't say we wouldn't have any problem, but we would certainly have a whole lot left of Wisconsin. (00:35:28) All right, let's get a comment here Howard orenstein why not just enforce the laws we've got already and I suppose down the road if that turned out to be insufficient and we could always talk about further legislation, but Crackdown and what we've got now and and Focus on the bad people who are doing the bad (00:35:47) things sure. I'm in favor of better and forcing the existing laws, but if we know that there are loopholes then they'd only make sense and it's only responsible to try to close those loopholes for the life of me. I can't figure out why any responsible American would object to some sort of minor inconvenience that would prevent convicted felons and convicted wife beaters and others who are ineligible under current law to have guns from getting the guns. That's all we're talking about is how do we how do we prevent people who aren't supposed to have guns from getting them and if it saves lives I think we can all live with reasonable regulatory system such as we have in Minnesota. I'd like to close the loopholes, but we know that a regulatory system can function without major inconvenience. I'll give you an example. I'm a coach of my son's might hockey team. And before I was Able to be a coach I had to submit a form that said that I was willing to have a background check done on me. Now. I've never done anything wrong with any children and I'm not going to but you know, I thought that was perfectly fine. If they want to do a background check on me before I can coach my youth volunteer hockey team perfectly fine because it might prevent somebody with a history of criminal sexual abuse from from being put in a position of supervisory authority over children. And that's all we're saying with these with with guns is sure most people are law-abiding but it's not unreasonable to say that there ought to be a regulatory system where we can prevent the convicted felons and others who are ineligible from getting (00:37:28) handguns Joel Aldrin. It sounds pretty (00:37:30) reasonable it sure does and again as I may have made the comment in my opening statement if we want to talk about carrying a firearm out in public in the open or concealed we talked about that too. I have no With going through the licensing procedure as I have here in Washington state when we talk about the soccer moms and how quote the people want more gun control and quote. In fact a large part of what the president proposed was proposed here in Washington state two years ago and what we call the initiative 676 a as it was characterized by its sponsors a safe Common Sense gun control proposal or gun safety proposal the people of Washington voted on it the people of Washington voted 71 percent know the media tried to characterize that as a roaring herbal herbal Urban split or a gender split. Well, in fact, they were right in both cases rural areas of the state shot it down by about a 90 percent margin urban areas by about 60% gender split was there then voted no 80% women voted no 60% So if you're going to bet your money on the soccer moms jumping onto the gun control bandwagon. You better be real careful with your money because you may come up short. November (00:38:46) what about the mr. Arnstein some point though that gosh, you know, if you even if you want to coach a youth soccer team in many instances, you know, you're there some inconvenience involved. There's a there's a background check that's run and not to pry heart doesn't seem like too high a price to pay for safety and why not take that same philosophy and apply it to gun ownership (00:39:12) again if we want to if mr. Ornstein wants to do the soccer thing. Then he has to go through the background check if I should choose to carry a gun off of my own property. I have no problem with going through the background check, but the question I would ask given the president's earlier claims that more than 400,000 people who are disqualified from owning Firearms these alleged felons and wife beaters had mr. Orenstein refers to if they've been denied under the four years now nearly five years of the Brady act being in place how many prosecutions have we had this result because each one of these individuals In fact, they really were disqualified committed a new felony and we could have taken that dangerous criminal and taken him off of the street. But how many people has the the federal government prosecuted? It's a handful. It's no more than a handful (00:39:57) what the would the president's plan to add extra prosecutors address that part of your concern then (00:40:03) the president's plan might again provided. The focus was was put in the right direction (00:40:08) Janet your question, please. Yes. Hi. I just want to (00:40:13) reiterate I'm very happy that the president brought that licensing up for guns. And I think it's a good idea. I would like to see some pressure put on the NRA. I do not like the proliferation of guns that we have in our country. I feel we should we would be much safer without just it's almost a fearfulness that there's so many guns out there in and we don't know in whose hands they are in and obviously many people that are you know, the violence is on TV the guns the media and for our children, I think we've seen from Columbine and these other examples of what what the guns can do out in our society and I just wonder myself I always say what would this country be like truly without this proliferation of guns out there? I mean would I be able to go out at night? Let's say by myself alone and Downtown Minneapolis as they are somewhere, you know, just I'm just wondering how different the feeling would be. I was in Singapore and and went out at night and I was so shocked that a single woman alone at night, you know 11 to 12 o'clock at night. Just walking down the street perfectly safe. Very just I was so excited. I felt so free and happy and I thought and now I come back to my country. I'm so scared to go out at night alone a woman alone. You know, it's just it's a frightening out there today in our society and I think what we don't have to be this way. We don't need this but guns are very very violent and very scary. Thank (00:41:42) you. Thanks Janet. Would we be safer if there were fewer or no guns out and about (00:41:49) Nope, you don't gets interesting if there were no guns. If somehow magically we could make all guns disappear tonight. Janet would still have a problem with the muggers on the street. It's the firearm and in the states that allow it her ability to carry a firearm to protect herself that provides that that balancing again balance of power or Equalization of force old saying God made man Colonel Colt made them equal Singapore is an example. I'd love to do a whole program on Singapore. It is one of the most fascist states in the world. And in fact as we have seen occasionally in our media, there are a lot of things that go on at Singapore that on the one hand might make the streets safer on the other hand the citizens if you will of Singapore and I think they're really subjects don't begin to enjoy the rights that we do here. I really don't know that Janet would enjoy living under a Singaporean type government (00:42:44) Howard orenstein would be would we be safer if we could wave a wand and And all the guns would disappear. (00:42:52) Well, I don't think that that's a realistic discussion topic. This is a country where many many people enjoy guns for sporting purposes and use them legitimately and I think what we really need to focus on is how do we keep guns out of the hands of kids and how do we keep guns out of the hands of criminals and I think we need an open and honest dialogue with gun owners, perhaps like the gentlemen Tom who called earlier who has experience as a gun dealer and a gun owner but who says that he has no problem with reasonable regulations because I think that most of the public realizes that there's a big problem with people having guns who don't know how to use them and who shouldn't who aren't eligible to have them and that's where the that's really where the problems are coming from. I don't think that the problems in our country come from a hunter who wants to Go out onto the land and kill a deer. I don't think that that's making our society were dangerous. But the free availability of weapons two kids and two gang members and two criminals is something that we can address through reasonable regulations on (00:44:06) guns. We don't have a lot of time left, but I wanted to at least briefly touch on a couple of other proposals that the president talked about last night Research into so-called smart guns presumably these would be weapons. Are they not which could only be fired by the owner of the weapon? Is that a good idea? Would that (00:44:27) work? I think it's a good idea if you could get it to work. I think it needs more research, but I know that police are very interested in this kind of research because more police officers are killed with their own guns than by criminals using criminals guns. What happens is that guns get taken off of police officers and Against them and so I know they're interested in having a gun that will only be able to be fired by the owner whether it's through a fingerprint or radio bracelet or some other such smart gun device. So I think that this is a technology worth pursuing it's a it's an example of where just like other consumer products guns could be made safer without Banning them and we ought to pursue (00:45:14) it Joel Aldrin would in fact that reduce the the president last night talked about all the kids who are being killed and injured in accidental gun related gun related accidents. I should say. Would that smart technology be the answer to that problem. (00:45:33) Well, you know, what's interesting, I guess the president hasn't read National Security Council statistics showing that Accidental Fire arms death stare at her lowest point in US history. And in fact have been cut by more than 60 percent just in the last 20 years talk about smart gun technology for a minute. Mr. Hornstein, missed the mark a little bit about 15 to 20 percent of police officers killed feloniously in the line of duty are killed with their own handguns, but you know smart gun technology for the most common of its time 20 years ago police sidearm Smith & Wesson revolver has been available since the early 70s with the thing called the Magna lock and yet no police officers were beating a path to the door of the believe. It was a New Hampshire inventor who came up with this a handgun is essentially a defensive firearm first and foremost a handgun must be reliable when you pull the trigger the handgun has got to go off certainly police officers know that and if the technology is there if it is one both reliable and to Affordable because that's another issue. We don't have taxpayers to by handguns for us in the general public like police officers do if the so-called user proprietary gun technology to be made both. Both and affordable. I'll be the first one to buy stock in the company that produces it but we are nowhere near that yet where that's probably at least 10 years down the road until such time as it is commonly available at a reasonable price. I will not support laws such as that proposed in Maryland that mandate the introduction of these guns and two years. It's ludicrous. (00:47:09) We are just about out of time here but a quick comment from each of you. Do you think when all is said and done this time next year? We'll any new gun related legislation have passed the Congress Joel Aldrin quick comment. (00:47:23) Well, I think the bottom line here is that Washington state passed its most comprehensive Omnibus gun control law in 1994 1994 is the year that that we turn the state legislature around totally and Congress turned around after passage of the Brady act if legislation does pass this year. I think that the the next legislature is going to be vastly different and I don't need more liberal our our current (00:47:47) legislature. All right Howard Orange Quick (00:47:49) comment. I agree to some degree that the 2000 elections are going to have an impact on whether this kind of legislation is passable. Both Democratic presidential candidates are highlighting it the president is highlighting it I think that if we continue to put these common-sense issues before the American people that good legislators will be elected at the state and federal level and that we will see improvements in our gun laws (00:48:13) gentlemen. I wish we had more time. We've just scratched the surface but I sure appreciate you joining us both of you. Thank you so much. Thank you former St. Paul state representative Howard Ornstein president of the board of citizens for a safer Minnesota joining us and also joining us from Bellevue Washington this our Joe Waldron executive director of the gun rights advocacy group citizens committee for the right to keep and bear arms five minutes now before 12, this is midday on Minnesota Public Radio.