(00:00:00) Good afternoon. Welcome back to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten. Glad you could join us. Well, as you heard on the news alleged white supremacist Buford furo, furro furro rather is facing a federal murder charge in connection with the shooting death of a mail carrier in Los Angeles for allegedly shot and killed the mail carrier shortly after attacking a Los Angeles area Jewish Community Center on Tuesday, five people including four children were wounded at the community center and 40 is being charged with attempted murder in connection with that attack shooting this week was just the latest in a series of similar attacks course, there was the massacre in Littleton two shootings in Atlanta shooting in Birmingham. And those were just in the last few months President Clinton today said this latest shooting in Los Angeles must intensify the nation's resolved. And gun violence, and as you heard attorney general Janet, Reno says tougher gun laws are needed. She says Congress should consider licensing all handgun owners. There are already hundreds. If not thousands of gun laws on the books and yet these shootings continue today on midday were going to take a closer look at whether all those existing laws are actually doing any good weather tougher laws would be more effective whether a total ban on guns is the answer or whether attempts to control gun violence by focusing on gun restrictions is basically misguided and ultimately fruitless. We'll be talking with several folks involved in gun law gun control gun use and gun rights this hour, and we also invite you to join our conversation. Give us a call here were discussing gun laws this hour in our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free at R22 a 286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight one caveat. If you will we're going to try to focus this hour on gun laws rather than the many other factors that experts say play into these violent incidences. Well, we could do separate hours on a whole range of other things. But today this hour we're focusing on gun laws. Now at the heart of any discussion about gun laws and gun rights is the Second Amendment to the US Constitution. It says that quote a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed but there's a lively debate over what those words actually mean what restrictions if any are actually constitutional joining us now to discuss the court rulings on the Second Amendment is noted law professor Carl bogus of Roger Williams School of Law in Rhode Island. Good afternoon Professor. Good afternoon. There are to be Sure, sharply differing opinions on what restrictions if any are constitutional but what have the courts actually decided in this area. Is there is there a firm body of law as to what the courts say is permitted in not permitted under the Second (00:03:18) Amendment there actually is Gary the Second Amendment is is unique in this respect. It's a controversial and Hot Topic on the political stump on radio talk shows and op-ed pages and and the like but it has long been settled law since at least 1939 and probably before that that the Second Amendment only grants citizens the right to keep and bear arms within the militia and by the militia. It means the militia defined in the main body of the Constitution the militia organized. Used are armed and disciplined by Congress and the states appoint the officers of the militia and the militia today has been organized into the National Guard system. So the courts have held the Supreme Court has held in all of the circuit courts that have looked at it since 1939 have held that the Second Amendment grants what we Scholars call a collective, right? That is a right only to keep and bear arms collectively within the government organized militia. (00:04:44) Now, there is a case coming out of Texas though or is there not that yes that has found the other way that in fact the district court judge in Texas has ruled that no the Second Amendment provides for the individual gives the individual the right to have a (00:05:03) weapon. Yes, you are. Correct a district judge. Federal district judge in Texas so held and if it is if he is affirmed on appeal before the United States courts of court of appeals for the fifth circuit. It'll be the first time that any circuit court has so held that case is rather interesting. There was a doctor named Emerson the case is called u.s. Versus Emerson Emerson who was embroiled in a bitter divorce. and his wife wife told the court that he had threatened to kill her her lover the court issued a restraining order prohibiting him from threatening his wife or her lover and there is a federal statute that said if you are subject to a domestic relations restraining order of this kind you may not possess guns the doctor then allegedly threatened his wife and daughter with a handgun brandished a handgun and was indicted for violation of the court injunction and the federal statute and there is a district judge in Texas who said that the statute Violated his Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. It's an idiosyncratic ruling at this juncture. And there are a lot of judges in America. It will be surprising and eventful if a circuit court affirms this (00:07:04) setting that particular case aside and the potential that it has based on all the other court rulings that have been made. Is there any limit on what Congress any rate limit on the restrictions that Congress could place on gun ownership in America that is to say tomorrow. For example, could the Congress announced that all private ownership is illegal? (00:07:29) Yes, the only limit that I can envision. under current law Supreme Court cases would be if Congress attempted to disarm the Minnesota National Guard. For example that it cannot do I think - you know, the states have a right to have not only a militia, but an armed militia, but that militia is the militia that the federal and state government have joint control over (00:08:04) given the makeup of the Supreme Court. It course changes over time is is is it possible that the courts could start looking at these cases differently or is this the kind of legal Theory based in precedent? That is not likely to change no matter who's sitting on the Supreme (00:08:24) Court. There are two justices on the court that have more than hinted that they would like to reconsider the Second Amendment and appear to have an affinity for the individual rights position and they are Thomas and rehnquist. It will be you know, no one has a crystal ball. The other justices have not addressed this but it would be a an enormous surprise to Scholars who follow the Supreme Court if the court as a whole were to adopt the individual rights position. (00:09:10) Thanks a lot Professor. Appreciate your joining us. Thank you good time with you, bye-bye. Carl bogus who teaches law at Roger Williams School of Law in Rhode Island. Now, Minnesota already has several laws on the books dealing with the use of guns in Minnesota and here to join us now. Join us now to bring us up to date on that part of the story is Bill Clump who's head of Criminal Division with the State Attorney General's office. Good afternoon, sir. (00:09:36) Hi Gary, how are you today? (00:09:38) Just fine. Glad you could could come on the are a few basic questions here. For those of us who aren't up on our gun law are minnesotans required to register their weapons (00:09:50) weapons aren't required to be registered but there is a background check which is required either under state or federal law for the purchase from a licensed dealer Private Sales are not regulated in Minnesota at the present time. In other words from one private citizen to another although we heavily regulate who can possess (00:10:12) Firearms. What are some of the restrictions on who can (00:10:15) possess well people who have been convicted of crimes of violence which are most of your violent felonies and a few misdemeanors. For example Reckless discharge of a firearm are prohibited people. Who've Committed is mentally ill people who are have been committed as chemically dependent in who haven't been, you know through a treatment program and as in successfully completed that we prohibit people who've been dishonorably discharged from the military juveniles generally can't possess Firearms except under very limited circumstances generally under training type purposes ROTC or those sorts of things in addition. We all the federal law regulates. Possession of firearms as well under state law if you are subject to a restraining order. I think Professor bogus commented on that Minnesota has a similar provision that or rather if you've been convicted of a domestic assault rather, there's a Prohibition under federal law. There's a lifetime bar for people convicted of what the federal law defines as a misdemeanor crimes of violence and federal law also prohibits those who are subject to restraining orders and judges in Minnesota have the ability to restrict access to Firearms as well and in their restraining order type situation, so those are fugitives. So there's, you know, a fairly long list of people who are prohibited from possessing firearms (00:11:51) for those people who are allowed to possess Firearms who pass the background check. Is there any restriction on the type of weapon they can have in (00:11:59) Minnesota? Yes in Minnesota. No one except police and the military can have machine guns and by that, I mean something that's fully automatic were with one pull of the trigger at fire. There's more than one shot. You can't possess sawed-off shotguns except for the police department's silencers are prohibited for everyone including even law enforcement officials in Minnesota and under federal law things. You don't hand grenades Bazookas artillery pieces those sorts of things as well are prohibited from private (00:12:33) ownership. Are there any special restrictions for (00:12:36) handguns? Yes, you know handguns we again there are certain people who can't possess them and we restrict how you can carry handguns generally speaking. You can't carry a handgun except if you're hunting or target practice or on your own personal property, unless you have a specific permit that you get from your chief of police or your sheriff and those same many of the restrictions that apply to handguns also apply to what we call semi-automatic military-style assault. Weapon, so those are you know, the semi-automatic versions of the M16 the uzi those sorts of things while they're semi-automatic. They look like the fully automatic military-style versions and the AK-47s those sorts of things (00:13:25) can each City have its own laws, or are they all is it a uniform sir? (00:13:29) No in Minnesota, we have the legislature has opted in favor of uniformity so that the gun laws don't vary from City to City so that the same laws apply to everyone in the (00:13:39) state. This is a little bit. Oh, I suppose judgmental, but wait in any way and we have a lot of laws covering what happens to people who use guns in the commission of crimes felons who possess guns in the rest. Is there any general agreement in the law enforcement Community about whether those laws are being rigidly enforced? (00:14:04) Well, I guess I'd be a little hesitant to speak for the entire law enforcement Community, but I I think certainly there is criticism, you know out there about enforcement issues on firearms. And certainly I mean, there's been a lot of criticism frankly leveled toward the federal government in terms of how much enforcement there has been and you know that's going to vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as well and that can mean you know from County to county in a in a state like Minnesota where the prosecution of the gun laws which are felonies is going to be done by the county attorney's misdemeanors in the metropolitan area are going to be prosecuted and in the throughout the state by the city attorney's (00:14:46) Thanks a Lot bill. Appreciate it. Oh, you're welcome. Good talking with Oakland. Who is the head of the Criminal Division with the Minnesota State Attorney General's office. If you're just tuning in we're talking about gun laws this hour in light of the latest shooting incident out Los Angeles attorney general Reno today suggesting. Once again that we need tougher gun laws. We already have across The nation many many gun laws and we thought it would be worthwhile today to take a closer look at whether or not the existing laws are accomplishing their purpose whether in fact we need tougher laws whether this whole emphasis on restricting gun ownership and and like is really pointless and that a different approach is needed. We're interested in your thoughts and comments on gun laws. And again as we said earlier, there are of course many many factors that are usually mentioned when these shooting incidents are talked about the media being one all of which could be discussed at length, but we thought this hour we're going to specifically talk about gun laws. Do you think we need tougher gun laws? Should we back away and try a different approach? Should we ban guns all together? Give us a call here, six five one two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one. Hundred two four two 28286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two four two two eight two eight David. Go ahead place. (00:16:18) Yes Gary. I had actually interesting interesting test case for Professor bogus, but let me preface my remarks by saying that I'm a politically liberal person. But I am also a gun owner. I don't belong the NRA because I believe that some of their leadership is fanatical and I just disagree with some of their views, but I'm in the National Guard and I own an AR-15, which is the semi-automatic version of the M16 assault rifle and my unit I've been assigned weapon, which is a ball down the hallway from where I'm sitting right now. That is my assigned weapon. I'm allowed to fire that assigned weapon once a year. I file at the fire a total of fifty eight rounds 18 to 0 the weapon and then 40 on a live fire range up at Camp Ripley. That is the only time that I touched that weapon all year. I am to maintain Small Arms proficiency. I have to own a weapon of my own and that's why I own the air 15 because it is as close to the weapon that I would be assigned of to take with me on deployment as possible. Now if they were to try to come and get that weapon, that would be very interesting test cases to bad. Professor bogus isn't around anymore online because I'd really be interested in hearing that the only thing that I'm really concerned with is number one when the Press talks about weapons. There's certain amount of first of all, the the term assault weapon does not exist in the Lexicon of firearms. There's their assault rifles like the AK-47 the weapon that I'm assigned the M16 and various other foreign weapons should other foreign Nationals and their armies but assault weapons is not a technical term. It is a generic term made up by the press and unfortunately, if you know, if you want to talk about these things, there should be a certain amount of convergence (00:18:11) right? Well, would you grant us David those of us who aren't as conversant in in Weaponry as you are would you grant us the basic difference between a weapon that is primarily at least to an outsider certainly paramilitary, right? I mean it's designed to shoot people as opposed to all Betsy there that you take out to try to get a deer (00:18:34) with well to some people old Betsy. Is that M1 Garand that you know, Issue during World War Two that's a semi-automatic weapon to it fires the same around a lot of modern weapons fire. So there's a different than a lot of the difficulty has to do with what the weapon looks like. And whose hands is in happen. I mean this, you know, when we talk about people own weapons, we talked about the attitude towards the weapon. I learned to fire a weapon on a military range. I have the utmost respect for that weapon as something that yes nominally is meant to kill people. Okay. The only thing I've ever shot with would shot out with my weapon is a paper Target whether it's a paper Target that I take out myself with a couple of friends to arrange or whether it's you know, a paper Target on a military range. (00:19:25) Do you think we need any additional laws should we get rid of the the current gun laws we have what do you think about (00:19:32) that? I think that one of the things we have to do is yes, I believe that. I believe that you cannot legislate discipline, but you can certainly make it more difficult for people who don't have the proper respect to own guns. And I I'm you know, I realize that that's a touchy thing for a lot of people but really, I personally I also own a handgun I have no I have no qualms about having to register that handgun. I would have no qualms about that. I don't have a problem with being able to you know, with with the idea that I would have to license that handle or even the rifle for that matter because I have nothing to hide. I'm not a criminal and I think that that's that's you know, where we talked about the types of folks that have been doing these things involving themselves in these incidents over the past two to five years. I think that yeah, there are a lot of questions and one of the things one of the things the NRA does like the harp on is that a lot of the laws that we have in place are not being enforced and to that extent. I do have a certain amount of agreement with them in that respect. I think that they A little bit too far with what they consider be logical extensions of that but yes, it is true that there are a lot of people that are somehow getting our hands on guns who clearly have no business getting their hands on guns and I think that there are certain things that we may have to do to tighten that up and and I have no problem with that whatsoever (00:20:57) David I want to go to some other callers so probably thanks for checking in. Let's move on to Eric who calls from st. Paul can well good afternoon Eric, (00:21:05) good afternoon. I guess this last shooting in La just really pushed me over the edge and you know, I think extreme times call for Extreme Measures. And I mean, I really hope that Congress comes back into session and has a just a total knee jerk reaction and bands guns or something like that. I think I maybe maybe stand corrected by think some there was some shooting in England, maybe five or six years ago. And after that happened they just said well fine. We're just going to get rid of guns in you know, And my wife is from France and and they just don't have these kind of problems there (00:21:41) at one of the Eric. One of the arguments you will hear about total ban on private ownership. Is that the good law-abiding people of course will ultimately abide by the law and then all the bad guys will be running around they'll still have their guns. They're not going to turn them (00:21:59) in. Well sure, but I mean you got to do something. I mean, this is just I mean it's reached an epidemic proportion and you know, it's it's just so crazy. I guess. I mean I don't you know, I was almost relieved to hear that. This was a hate crime. I mean, it's a little bit easier to grasp conceptually then then some of the randoms random killings that have been going on. You know, I mean, it's just it's an epidemic. I mean my wife and I have she's from France and we've you know, we've talked to actually about moving back to France because it's so insane (00:22:31) here. So time to ban them. (00:22:34) I really think so or do you know some extreme measure? (00:22:37) All right. Let's move on to Allen who joins us from a Chaska. Good afternoon, Alan. (00:22:43) Hello. Yes. Well, let me make this really quick the phone way. I lived out in Virginia. I looked at the Constitution several times and I've the way I understand the Pete the way they found or do they really wrote? It was if you're human you're in the militia. That's what that I know that isn't the truth anymore. But that's the way it is. Now. We do have there are laws against killing people. There's laws against threatening people and everything else like that, but they're not being protected. They're not being prosecuted (00:23:16) you have on that reality Allen and given the fact that there are there are just so many of these incidents don't you feel that something more needs to be done? In terms of controlling their just so many guns around (00:23:33) there there probably aren't enough where they need to be. I don't know about where you live. But up here in the North Woods. We live with our we live with the gun loaded gun in the house all the time. We have in the backyard. We have a beer that comes through every couple three weeks. We have Mountain line we have wolves and we have an occasion will have a Drifter. I don't know about you but we (00:23:57) what do you do with the dreamy the show you (00:24:00) somebody that's just passing through now you shoot at him. You don't know pass it. You don't shoot at anyone. You never shoot at anyone unless they shouted you first, but that's the way that's (00:24:12) so clearly as far as you're concerned. There's certainly no need for any additional legislation and perhaps we should get rid of some of the laws that are already (00:24:19) exist. Well, we should enforce the laws we have first then look at it and see what we need. That's the problem the police won't the police are not required to protect you. So they all they can do is investigate and clean up the mess afterwards. So people have to keep track of themselves. (00:24:37) Thanks Alan. We are talking this our about gun laws, of course, the precipitating event being the shooting in Los Angeles this week yet another in a series of recent incidents. And as you probably heard attorney general Janet Reno is calling for tougher gun laws. The president is saying that we need to attend a tend once again to the issue of gun violence. We thought it would be worthwhile today to talk a little bit about Gun laws whether they should be tougher whether we've already gone too far in the way of gun restrictions. Give us a call here. If you'd like to join our conversation, six five. One two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 2282865122767180022422828 more callers coming up in just a couple minutes. But right now let's catch up on the latest news. Here's Mike Mulcahy Mike. Thank you, Gary. And here's the latest on that shooting in California Buford Furrow has been charged with first-degree murder and five counts of attempted murder in the fatal shooting Tuesday of a mailman and the attack on a Jewish Community Center in Los Angeles for already faces a federal murder charged in the shooting of the postal worker authorities confirm that 40 has confessed to both the shooting of the mailman and the Rampage at the community center 15 people remain hospitalized today after the freak tornado that ripped through downtown Salt. City yesterday two people were in critical condition this morning for others were in serious condition one person was killed by the storm. But the mayor of Salt Lake City says it could have been much worse. She says about 79 people were hurt and dozens of others had minor injuries, but didn't need to be hospitalized. Most of those injured were hit by flying debris or cut with broken glass. The company that operates cable TV's BET channel aims to create a major destination for blacks on the internet. The new BET.com site is the latest effort to narrow what's been referred to as a digital divide between whites and minority groups who have tended not to use the internet as much or have the same access to computers bet holding says the Venture will receive 35 million dollars in backing from for partners including Microsoft that new site will debut in November in Minnesota. The US Department of Agriculture is projecting a record soybean crop and a near record Corn Harvest rather than cheer the news many farmers expect the huge Harvest to send already low crop prices even lower and Minneapolis Police the FBI and other law enforcement officials have scheduled a news conference this afternoon to talk about a teenage prostitution case that news conference is scheduled for 2:00 o'clock the weather for today showers and thunderstorms pretty much around the state the heaviest ones though will be in the southern part of The highest today will range from the lower 60s to near 80 then the chance for rain continues into tonight and into tomorrow morning for southern Minnesota the lows tonight from around 52 near 65 highs tomorrow around 70. It's pretty much cloudy across the state right now Sioux Falls checks in with 74 degrees at 69 in Rochester 70 degrees in st. Cloud in the Twin Cities cloudy and 71 degrees Gary. All right. Thank you Mike 26 minutes now before one, this is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. This hour were talking about the nation's gun laws. Are they effective at all? We have plenty of them on the books all across the country if these shootings continue, do we need more laws? Should they be tougher laws? Should we shift our Focus away from gun restrictions and try some other approach? I'll give you the phone number again, but don't call right now because you'll just get a busy signal we want to talk to some people on the line now and then give us a call here in 10 minutes or so six. I've won two 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two four two two eight two eight Captain. Jeff thielen is long time conservation officer firearm safety expert with the State Department of Natural Resources. He's the dnr's Enforcement Education coordinator and he joins us now from Camp Ripley afternoon Captain. Are you doing Gary just fine again? For those of us who aren't all that familiar with with weapons. Is there a oftentimes you hear? Well gee, we fully support we want Hunters to have access to their to their weapons, but we want the bad guys not to have weapons. Is there any clear line separating guns used by Minnesota hunters and the more high-powered assault-type weapons that we read about. (00:29:15) Well, I had the opportunity. I was listening in earlier over lunch. We were talking to some of the other guests and I think one of your one of your callers one of your guests had described the look of the firearm as being More indicative of what you would consider a bad guys firearm and I know you were talking about assault assault weapons. And I think any weapon can be assaulted depending on how it's used. So, you know that it is kind of a misnomer, you know, the the action of any firearm when it's used against another human being is going to be a salt of so, you know, I would be remiss if I didn't mention I participated here this past Monday or this past Tuesday in a Statewide conference that is sponsored by the Minnesota Department of Health looking at this exact same issue and very good conference over a hundred people from throughout the state attended with both what you would consider very Pro firearm and very anti firearm and actually sitting down and working together to try to come up with some solutions to To this whole issue and the main thrust is that minnesotans would public health is looking at Firearms related injuries and death as a public health problem and not just another type of an issue (00:30:33) just to clarify then there's no difference really between 02 Z and Remington Shotgun. (00:30:43) Well, no agreement. I think if you know, if you look at it that way I most most hunters in Minnesota are either bird hunters or their big-game Hunters the bird hunters in Minnesota will typically use shotguns in the shotguns are are the majority of shotguns are Sporting Arms, which are incapable of holding more than five shots and the rifles that are used are sporting a sporting firearm. The sporting Firearms are have a specific caliber. They have to be of a specific caliber to hunt big game in Minnesota. However, as one of you other callers had mentioned You know some of the military calibers are the same caliber that are that would be used for for hunting and Minnesota (00:31:27) are handguns used for hunting (00:31:29) and guns are used for hunting in Minnesota. Yes, that's correct. (00:31:32) And do they tend to be the more single shot of variety of the revolver type? I (00:31:42) think what you'll find is most hunters use a revolver that's of a larger caliber and they will put scopes on these handguns and you know in the hands of a trained user they're very effective (00:31:57) and they tend to be these weapons though with the big Clips where you can fire off a lot of a lot of rounds before you have to reload (00:32:07) I would guess that the the majority of firearms that are used for hunting in Minnesota are not do not have those capabilities. There is somewhat of a line between Militaristic what the media and the Press refers to as an assault weapon and a sport erised or recreational (00:32:26) firearm. Okay. Thanks a lot Captain. All right, good information. Thank you very much Captain Jeff Whalen who is the dnr's Enforcement Education coordinator joining us this hour from Camp Ripley and joining us now from Minneapolis has Dana Claus who is a Firearms examiner with the Minneapolis Police Department. Good afternoon. Hello, Dana. Well, I guess she isn't there right now. So let's go to some callers and let's check in with Vernon from Minneapolis Vernon. Thanks for calling in this afternoon. Hi. Hi them, just fine. Do you think there's any need for any additional kind of gun legislation? You know these shooting incidents continue attorney general says maybe we should start licensing handguns in the rest. Do you think we need to move toward tighter (00:33:21) restrictions? First of all, I think well, maybe some of the laws rate on the books right now. Our little aren't being enforced on look at the guy in Illinois that went to a gun dealer licensed Federal firearm dealer and Bots trying to buy why wasn't he arrested at the time? When he tried to purchase, so that's one thing that's that's not being enforced (00:33:50) upon if assuming that all the laws existing laws were enforced or at least enforcement increased. Do you think then we should move toward even tougher restrictions or are we moving in the wrong direction all together? All these restrictions on guns Just ultimately fruitless (00:34:08) tougher restrictions aren't the answer. The ones that are on the boat should be enforced the way they are right (00:34:17) now. A lot of those laws as they were passed were fought fairly vigorously as being unnecessary. But you think ultimately the ones that we do have are good laws. (00:34:31) Yes, they're perfect. (00:34:33) Okay. Thanks a lot Vernon. Thank you. Appreciate your calling. No, I think Dana class is with us from the Minneapolis Police Department Firearms examiner. Good afternoon. Dana well, let's see. We're going to have to move on to another caller here. Mike. Go ahead (00:34:56) Place. Hello. Hi listen to your show all morning. Yes, I speak from a little bit of experience here. Just my own I guess I was I was I've been a gun on their gun owner in enthusiasts all my life a few things that concern me. Well, let me go this is my first time on radio here. So I'm a little bit nervous. Oh, don't be nervous. I was the victim of an armed robbery in a Twin Cities about 0078 years ago in which three fellows kind of cornered a whole number of us in a restaurant Chef Des into an office and then proceeded to to force the manager to open the safe and what have you and it was so kind of a until you've been in that situation. It's really difficult to understand what people in that situation are Thinking or feeling her, you know and what the aftermath of it is, but after that. Incident the number of things came to mind and that is that one. I don't think any amount of laws would have stopped these people from from doing this as I said, I've been a gun owner in an a gun enthusiast all my life and these nuts running around with, you know Firearms who would who would cause harm to someone if necessary or to steal their money or their property or whatever. I don't think can be stopped with us because they don't think they have the moral base to begin with to to abide by a law, you know, and I think they will get the guns. Anyway, I guess that's my my summary one way or another and the in guns would be fairly simple to manufacture. (00:36:52) What about just Banning them all together recognizing that it's going to take a while for the literally tens of millions of guns to wash their way through the system, but ultimately there would be fewer guns available to fewer (00:37:05) criminals. I think that would be the probably the most serious mistake our society would ever made. I personally very strongly believe that I think that it dawned on me one of the points. I was going to make that that brings up was that I was I was one of the first people that this fella kind of captured and put into an office, you know, rather small office for a corner door number of us and and I looked at all those people as it came through that door. I got the opportunity to see all those people as they were shoved into this office by the by the gun wielding Thug and The thing I remember most was that were the faces of those people when they came through there. They were just they were totally dominated totally beaten and at the same time we're very angry, but you can't do anything about it, you know because he has the gun you don't and it dawned on me after the fact that this being a criminal was a risk-free occupation. I mean, he could get caught by the police but the police arrived some oh 20 minutes later after you know, this that all happened and there was probably 15 to 20 of us there and you know one person said well, yeah, he had tennis shoes and a T-shirt and the other one said no, he had a sport coat and glasses and there were your so startled that you don't think of looking for you know, what you need to look for for the for the capture of this person and and it dawned on me that he has zero risk. I mean the chances of him getting caught are almost a zip and and we're victims of this and they don't think Banning firearms. I guess. I think that would be a real real serious mistake being in regard to the caller who called (00:38:48) earlier very briefly because I do want to get to some other (00:38:51) callers are okay. I think that one of the things that we look at me and her should look at quickly. They can that when we hear about all these shootings and all these things going on around the country and we hear about gang violence and they own the streets and what have you I think we need to look at our own responsibility or what have we done to promote that do to our our culture the way it is. We don't go out for walks in the evening anymore. We've given the streets to the to the criminal. I think that we have we have we have shown a great deal and and taught a great deal to our children that that the world is a dangerous place to live in not a safe place to live in when I think in reality these instance that do happen the Columbine. The recent one here. I'm a little bit of a loss for Atlanta with it and that these are relatively isolated and were it not for the media and the coverage that we know almost everything that goes on around the world today. How much of that would we hear about 48 years old and there was an incident (00:39:59) like I'm going to I'm going to go on to another caller here because I do want to get to some other people but appreciate your calling. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, I think we've solved our technical problems Dana class joins us from the Minneapolis Police Department. Good afternoon. Hi Gary. Thanks for joining us. I'm just curious. So we were talking earlier with the DNR Captain about weapons that are used for hunting. I'm wondering about the weapons that are used to commit crimes. What what are you folks seeing a full range are there all these military style weapons that are being used by the bad guys. What what's happening in Minneapolis? (00:40:38) Well, basically we're seeing like you said the full Change we're seeing everything and guns long guns anywhere from rifles rifles that are not altered at all to sawed-off rifle sawed-off shotguns the whole gamut. We're seeing (00:40:57) everything. Do you have any estimates as to how many guns might be on the Street in Minneapolis? (00:41:04) Say oh no. No, there's we don't keep statistics and it would be so hard to say, you know, what even an approximate number would be theirs. There's just no idea. (00:41:17) Mmm, and any idea where is there any any information available as to where the criminals are getting their (00:41:27) guns? Not that we would have I wouldn't even know who to tell you. You know, another good resource might be the Minnesota game Strikeforce. They may keep more statistics on that. I I'm in more of a controlled environment. I'm in a lab. Yeah, and so when we get a case in and evidence, whether it be a gun or cartridges or fired components of cartridges, we're only seeing this evidence and we're getting a case number. We don't, you know, get names or ages or locations. Mmm. So, it keeps us pretty open-minded as to what we're looking at and keeping out all the outside. factors that can Maybe influence our opinions, (00:42:16) right? And in terms of crimes committed generally speaking that are that involve guns. Generally speaking are handguns used. I know you said a full range is involved but is it for the most part involve handguns are literally all types of weapons. (00:42:33) Well, I can say for us being in in Minneapolis. We deal with Minneapolis cases for the most part only Minneapolis cases. And for us the majority of crimes are probably I guess would be safe to say with handguns out state. If you would talk to the State Crime Lab the Firearms examiner's all of their they would probably say the opposite and that they see more long guns. So it depends upon You know what area of the state that you're looking at that will tell you, you know more so what you're going to be looking at. Thanks a lot for joining us. You're welcome (00:43:11) Dana class who is a Firearms examiner with the Minneapolis Police Department. This is midday and Minnesota Public Radio. This hour were talking about gun laws attorney general Janet Reno citing the latest shooting incident this time in Los Angeles said today that we need tougher gun laws. There are of course already literally thousands of gun laws on the books in America, and we're trying to determine today whether you think those laws are effective whether we actually need tougher laws whether we should ban guns all together or whether this whole emphasis on the Restriction of guns and the use of Guns is misguided and that we need to focus our attention elsewhere to try to prevent future mass shootings Gene. Is on the line from Onalaska, Wisconsin, good afternoon Gene. (00:44:05) Hi Gary. Thanks for taking my call. You bet. I have to agree with our previous caller Mike. He made some very good points. There are plenty of laws on the books that are not being enforced. The people are breaking all the time. His experience of being held at gunpoint was was really very interesting the person who did that was breaking laws at the time and it's illegal for anybody under the age of 21 to own a (00:44:37) handgun. So it'd be illegal for everybody to own weapons (00:44:43) know why not there. There are people who should not own weapons, but on the other hand there are millions of guns in the United States. And if you believe that it's gun violence not human violence, then there would be a really there really would be an epidemic of violence of so-called gun violence. (00:45:06) Wouldn't you agree though, Jean? I mean, what do you hear these incidents about these shootings and stuff don't you feel the need to do something and more to the point? I guess there are so many guns. Isn't there in your mind need to I mean, that's what the thing seems to have gotten out of control. I think a lot of people would argue that they're just too many guns (00:45:33) around gun control is not the answer because you cannot control the manufacturer when in the days of prohibition people learned how to make their own alcohol. And anybody who has access to Machine Tools can make guns And there's a problem with smuggling smuggling drugs into the u.s. There just is no way that you can enforce a gun bam. It's not possible. Actually. The problem is what kind of human being would kill somebody. I couldn't. But there are people out there who are doing that and there's something wrong with those people. That is the problem. It's not the gun but (00:46:15) shouldn't we make it more far more difficult far more difficult for those people to get their hands on a gun (00:46:21) certain people. That's why we have the background checks Etc. And of course, there are still people who can obtain obtain guns legally that the background check doesn't you know, I don't they don't have a previous history of mental illness Like This Racist guy. That's the problem. But it's the sick people who are the problem. (00:46:44) Okay? Thanks Gene. Thank you. Appreciate your call. Let's move on to Dave who joins us now. Good afternoon (00:46:50) Day morning afternoon. Sorry. Well, it's close enough. Yeah. The main point I'd like to address is the availability of firearms to criminals and how that could possibly be controlled. But first if I may a real brief correction on an earlier call who mentioned that England had Just outlawed Firearms, maybe five years ago after a school shooting the English population by and large has a civilian body is being disarmed for over a century. The recent laws would just tighter restrictions still on licensing and storage. They managed to get away with a handful of firearms homicides a year compared to our 19,000 and they also have a much lower homicide rate overall as far as availability to criminals people have to remember where criminals get guns from their outlawed from buying them by existing laws how criminals generally get guns is stealing them from these proverbial law-abiding citizens who already have them there are 500,000 guns tests a year service over half. The guns in private hands are not locked not stored safely away and just there for the taking so by picking a little bit at a time a gun laws and who can buy them and when and how many really kind of missing the whole problem, which is the perimeter. Proliferation the massive number of these things we have so I think a better way to solve this would be attempts at recalls attempts of BuyBacks attempts at restricting storage to gun clubs to a hunting Rangers to walk facilities rather than keeping them in the home and obviously then strict licensing and registration. So guns can be traced more easily. (00:48:32) Thank you Dave. Let's move on to another caller here before we run out of time like to get as many callers on as possible this afternoon Don. You're (00:48:38) next. Hi say I got one quick question under what circumstances can a person carry a handgun without having a special permit to do so and I bring that up for a reason and I but I want to first know if there is such a (00:48:57) situation. I am not your gun law expert Don. I'm afraid I'm I'm afraid I can't really answer your question. I know you have to get a permit to have Of a concealed weapon and I'm (00:49:11) sort of okay, I'll hang up in about a second but an example as I was going backpacking and I wanted to make sure that I had to transport a pistol and I checked the Airlines and they said just put it in a hard case separate the of the ammunition from the handgun in two separate bags and they already tagged it inside the hard case and that's fine. My question is well my doing anything wrong to transport that weapon from my house to the airport. So I call the sheriff's department has said well, what are you calling us for? It doesn't seem that you have any problem and that was my answer. So I'm confused. I'll hang up now. (00:49:43) Yeah, I'm sorry. I can't help you. Okay, Doug is on the line from Detroit Lakes quick. Comment Doug. (00:49:50) Yes, sir. Just a quick comment yourself and others in the news media sometimes use the word weapon when they're talking about a firearm when it concerns a sporting issue and it's definitely a differentiation are you don't call firearm a weapon when we're talking in a sporting sense? And the other reason it's a proof. What do you want? Pardon? What do you call it a (00:50:14) firearm? Okay. (00:50:15) Okay, and then another thing is this latest shooting that happened in La is a proven fact that repeat offenders and criminals are causing a lot of this gun violent crime. This person was picked up earlier on a violent type nature and he was released early from jail. We have to look at our criminal prosecution system. Not gun laws to cure these kind of (00:50:43) problems. I think that's that's the total answer. (00:50:47) Absolutely. There's enough gun laws on the books today and if they were enforced (00:50:53) no problem. All right. Thanks Doug you bet and time for at least one more caller here Diane Diana. Yes. Yes. Go ahead. Please comment. (00:51:03) My comment is basically about how much are we dealing with a few reaction from the public about not knowing what would happen if we just reduce the number of Guns by having tighter restrictions are we really not protecting ourselves? I mean how many people have successfully protected themselves because they had a gun do we ever get any researcher stats on that? (00:51:23) Yeah, there is I don't have it handy but there's information about that. (00:51:27) Yes. So do you think that it's really a fear reaction that if we didn't have the guns the bad guys would (00:51:31) win? I don't know. What do you think (00:51:35) I kind of think it's probably an over reaction. I think not having guns around we would all be a lot safer and we'd have other ways of protecting ourselves. We'd get smarter. (00:51:44) Would you like to see a total ban on all firearms? (00:51:48) I'd like to see it very restricted like the other gentleman described that England is doing and what not like that so it's not an all-or-nothing thing but it's a very controlled very conscientious very specific and easily traceable (00:52:02) usage. Yeah. Thanks a lot for calling. Thank you. We are unfortunately out of time and we were really appreciate all of you who've been with us. This are especially those of you who called in or trying to call in with your questions and comments. Wish we had time to get more on the air. I'm guessing there will be much more coverage of this particular issue over the next while we will course continue our coverage of the situation in Los Angeles more developments likely in that case through the day and for the rest of the week for that matter, but that's it for today. Gary eichten here. Again. Thanks for tuning in tomorrow at 11 o'clock. Hope you can join us. So we'll be talking with the mayor of Minneapolis tomorrow Sharon Sales. Belton will be here in our Studios. And of course you'll have a chance to call in with your questions and comments. That's tomorrow programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the Pillsbury company Foundation caring for the community by giving kids a loving lift Gary eichten here. Again. Thanks for tuning in today on the next Word of Mouth the radio guide to the Arts conductors and aren't cars. Well when you're sitting in the Lotus position, how much room do you need all that and the Roundup on word-of-mouth at 6 p.m. Friday on Minnesota Public Radio K. No W FM 91.1 You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a cloudy Sky 71 degrees at can W FM 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul scattered showers and thunder showers are forecast for the rest of this afternoon with highs in the mid-70s more rain is likely tonight with a low in the 50s and then tomorrow 40% chance for rain with a high near 70 degrees.