(00:00:00) Good morning with news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Eric Janssen University of Minnesota president Mark yudof has told us State Senate panel. It will likely take months to finish an external investigation of the University's men's basketball program allegations first surfaced in the st. Paul Pioneer Press this week that a former University secretary took tests and wrote papers for as many as 20 basketball players yudof is defending the University's decision to declare for players ineligible for yesterday's NCAA Tournament game, even though he says the decision troubled him. He says NCAA rules left the university little Choice Governor Ventura is meeting with house Speaker Steve's Wiggum and Senate Majority Leader Roger Mo today, the three are trying to work out a tax relief plan for minnesotans Ventura and Moe yesterday rejected sweetums offered to accept their sales tax rebate plan. If they if they support his proposal for deeper income tax cuts State Republican party executive director. Tony Sutton says, it's hard to tell if the parties can work out a deal anytime (00:00:55) soon. Well, I don't know if there's any room for compromise, but frankly if the governor was paying attention to the people. Who elected him to office he would be embracing the Republican plan half a percent across the board is fair and it's doable with the with the projected budget surpluses in Revenue that would that are coming into the state of (00:01:12) Minnesota. Ventura says he wants to know what government services swigging would cut to finance. The offer, Moe says most dear fellows are more interested in middle class tax relief. The Minnesota Timberwolves have traded point guard Stephon Marbury to the New Jersey Nets in a nine player deal involving three teams Timberwolves. Vice president. Kevin McHale says Marberry and his agent David Falk forced the wolf to trade their star point guard. Mikhail says fault told him team told team officials that unless he was traded to the Nets or New York Knicks Marbury would sign with the Chicago Bulls after the season temperatures warming up a bit with highs this afternoon around 30 degrees in the western part of Minnesota to the low 40s in the Southeast. Mostly cloudy skies and most western Minnesota with a Chance of light snow in the far Southwest continuing into this evening. That's the latest from the Minnesota Public Radio Newsroom. I'm Eric Janson. Thank you, Eric. Average of the capital legislative session on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by means telkom the primary telecommunications provider for the Learning Network of Minnesota and by MP our members, it's six past 11:00. Good morning, and welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Ray be in for Gary eichten. At noon today, we'll be bringing you a special from reporter Lynnette diamond' on the Hmong in Minnesota. It's called This is Home among of not had the easiest time adjusting to life in America, but other immigrant groups are also having their own special problems here and have in the past. We thought it would be good to use this first hour of midday to set up the second hour to take a step back and set the context for our noon hour special. This is home. We're getting into the basics of immigrants in Minnesota from two guests this hour in the studio with me a self-confessed bean-counter state demographer Tom Gillespie. Thank you for coming in. I John and Jane grubman of The International Institute of Minnesota has been working in the field for 10 years or more helping immigrants make the best of their lives here is grubman. Thank you for joining us. (00:03:22) You're welcome. Thank you, (00:03:23) and we're taking your calls to the phone numbers 6512276 thousand in the Twin Cities 6512276 thousand or 1-800 to 4 to Eight twenty eight one eight hundred to four to Twenty Eight Twenty Eight. We would love to hear from some new immigrants older immigrants refugees. Give us a call. Let us know what you're thinking or if you know you born here and you have thoughts about the topic or questions. Give us a call six five. One two, two seven six thousand or 1-800 to for to 2828 and let me start with you. Mr. Gillespie as state demographer if we could set some of the context here with some figures for instance. How many foreign-born people do you think there are in the state of Minnesota? Well John so far this decade we've had about forty seven thousand immigrants from from other countries arrive directly to Minnesota. We've also had a substantial in migration from other states so far this decade about hola over 71,000 and some of those people are also born in other countries so that we believe that that more Only we're more recent immigrants the last 20 years or so. We're talking well over a hundred thousand people. Okay, and that makes up about what about 3% Yeah. It's a fairly small proportion of the total population is the foreign-born population immigrant population earlier in this Century as proportion of the total population was very large we had a and and that's not surprise me in a very large immigration. But immigration has been has been picking up since the late 70s for for Minnesota. Okay, and used to be just picking up on what you're saying used to be something like 30% of the state years and years ago decades ago, you know was foreign born. Yeah over half million people and you know, and we're talking about a lot fewer people right now, but that number is is increasing and not only is it increasing but the the variety of countries from which people come it is also greatly expanding course we Everybody in the state knows about the migration of the Hmong people in that began really in the late late 70s to Minnesota has continued on we continue to see some some migration to Minnesota of among people and also other people's from Southeast Asia, but more recently we've seen large increases of people from from Africa both West and East East Africa from countries such as as Somalia and Liberia and in Nigerian countries like that Ethiopia Eritrea, and and we've also seen immigration from from former Soviet countries from from Russia and from other other countries in that region as well as Bosnia. And so basically whenever we see something happen in the world eventually, that's probably going to translate at least into some some immigration into Minnesota that's compared to the rest of the country. Well, Minnesota by comparison to the rest of the country is is pretty far down the list in terms of total immigration the the big kind of big states on the coasts, California, New York, Florida Texas receive really The Lion Share of of immigrants to to the United States the big difference for Minnesota and where we are. We're a little bit more unique than the rest of the country. Is that a very large share of are immigrants or refugees and come into the state under Refugee status. Why is that that's a that's a historical type of thing. And I think part of it has to do with the kinds of services that are available to through Lutheran Social Services Catholic Charities variety of other related kinds of services as well as as interpersonal contacts, which apparently had a great deal to do with the Hmong my Raishin and a variety of other reasons. I think more recently the the very tight labor market in the availability of jobs has also tended to fuel more repetition of that sort of second round of immigration where people initially migrated to emigrate to a state such as such as California, but then subsequently migrate to to Minnesota where there may be more opportunities for jobs at State demographer Tom Gillespie and run the line with Jam grubman of The International Institute of Minnesota actually taking time out from her vacation. So thanks very much for doing that. Mrs. Grubman from your work. What is the biggest challenge that is facing all of these (00:08:19) immigrants? Well, you know, the as Tom was talking about the different groups that have arrived here some of the challenges for each group very but I think by and large the challenges for immigrants and refugees are probably more similar than they are. Similar and I think you know from the moment they step off the plane and arrived into Minnesota or wherever they arrive to they have to first get housing which is often a challenge and then if they have children, they have to get their children enrolled in schools and then they have to get themselves connected with medical services in the community and and those things have to happen as you can imagine pretty quickly. And then after that they have to move on to if they don't have knowledge of English and they have to quickly get into classes and learn the language feathers and usually with most refugees in particular there are linguistic issues and people need to get some English skills. Even if they have a base they need to add to that base. And then there there are cultural issues that they have to also become educated about the as well as language issues. And of course they have to move into employment quickly and become employed and Then all the issues that come with being employed as well learning the workplace culture as (00:09:42) well sure, and I'm not going to use the word assimilate. We'll talk about that right loaded for Jesus. All right, and in just a bit, I'll use the word adjust who's having the hardest time adjusting in Minnesota. (00:09:55) That's a really good question and I can't really say I think that there's really any one particular group. That's probably having a harder time adjusting than others, but I will say that I think that if you are a refugee or an immigrant for that matter and you come from an urban area in your country, you've lived in a city and you've had some education in your city or your country of origin and also I think it helps if you've been lived in a country where you've had some exposure to Western culture, so lots of countries in Africa, there were colonized by Western countries allows them to have some exposure to Western culture and I think that all of those Things help your resettlement in this country tremendously. If you have those things, it's definitely an advantage because most refugees and immigrants not entirely but mostly settle in cities and like for all of us, you know, there are challenges to living in a city and adjustments that you have to make so I think if you have an urban experience in your country of origin, you've got education and some exposure to Western culture that's going to help you tremendously here. I think, you know, you've been talking about let me stop you who should and (00:11:08) who again are there there no immigrant groups that you can identify who are really having a very tough time and I know for sure that the The Clash of cultures with the hmong and not just the culture Clash but moving from rural to Urban right which of course in a sense is a culture Clash. I mean they have had a very tough time in general. It's safe to generalize in that case, isn't (00:11:32) it that right there? Somebody needs help. What are some other groups that you And I think you know historically is important to remember that any time you have first generation immigration. Unfortunately, I think those first generation folks are get sacrificed to some extent. I mean they've had to leave their jobs. If Italy their homes and often times, I've had to leave family members immediate family and extended family and come to this country and readdress. Of course, they bear the brunt of resettlement but in addition to that I think for the Hmong because as you mentioned they most of them are not all of them, but most of them came from very rural areas and they came here and did not have a formal education as we note in this country. And in fact didn't have a written language and so they had really huge hurdles to make and I think then it was time is a Tha mentioned among have come here since the 70s start coming in the mid 70s, you know with time. You can just see him as you have featured on your show. You've had Hmong that are now lawyers and Doctors and so that's just going to happen more and more with time and with their children and it's just going to get easier for them, but they have had they have had a lot of leaps to make. (00:12:45) Yes. Yes, we're talking about immigration in Minnesota kind of setting up the second hour of midday today. When will hear this is home a special report by Lynnette diamond' about the Hmong in Minnesota. And we welcome your phone calls 6512276 thousand in the Twin Cities 6512276 thousand or 1-800 to four to Twenty Eight. Twenty eight one eight hundred two four to Twenty Eight Twenty Eight or with State demographer Tom Gillespie and Jane grubman of The International Institute of Minnesota. And let's actually go right to the phones and go to Lee from Rochester, highly. (00:13:22) Yes. I just like to say having worked with immigrants that the main issue in integration is the problem where people come from preliterate cultures such as South East Asia and Southeast Africa, and the problem you have is you can't teach them English or ESL. Simply by pulling open a dictionary that has their words translated into our words because they come from a culture where people don't read or write for the most part anyway, and a lot of these cultures include the Lao among and but also there are some areas in Somalia and Southeast Africa where we've had people from the Sudan, you know, the refugee populations where that's been the biggest problem in getting them integrated into the (00:14:14) workforce. I'm a little bit worried lie that you're making a very broad statement. (00:14:22) Well, I'm talking about the actual mechanics of getting people in the welfare to work. The amphib program of actually getting people into our Workforce. What are the barriers to their progress and it's not it's not a rural to Urban problem at all. It's basically a literacy transfer problem because when they learn literacy, they're learning it for the first time. They have not been exposed to the written word in many cases even in their own cultures (00:14:53) and you're working with people in Memphis specifically. (00:14:57) Well, specifically I work in a work in work for a an immigrant assistance (00:15:05) program. How are people like that? Then getting well address of (00:15:08) your they have to go through extensive ESL training and that's that's essentially the biggest barrier they have they (00:15:15) also Give me a sense of how they're getting along them. Like are they are they giving up and going home or (00:15:22) know? They're they're saying here because they come from war-torn parts of the world. You have to understand in Somali in Somalia. They haven't had a civil government. Therefore, you know over five years, you know, Cambodia was a country where if you read and write if you were a few were literate you were subject to extermination by the by the Khmer Rouge. (00:15:52) So right now are these people making ends meet? (00:15:56) Yes, they are but they AR they are the worst case the slowest people to bring to to make that transfer into the workforce and to get to actually move people into the mainstream Jane grubman. Yeah. I mean we is correct in saying that, you know refugees that come and immigrants for that matter that come and that are preliterate really have a big struggle ahead of them. We presently have a class that's working with Sudanese women and and you have to be very careful when you say that because it's certainly not all sunnis women. It's a small percentage of the sunnis population is actually here but this particular tribe that we're working with the women had never been formally in a classroom before and when they came to the class we're learning to hold a pencil for the first time but now two years later their writing and their reading English and so How is right to the extent that it is a much more difficult Challenge and it's takes more time for people than to get on their feet and become self-sufficient, but it does happen and these women now, even though they are writing basic sentences in English. They are going a lot of them have gone to work already and are working in manufacturing jobs where literacy isn't necessarily required. But again, you know, it's your colors are right to say and it's very hard for people if they do come they don't have education and they have to go into a work site and they can read the basics. But you know, sometimes there are safety signs and they have chemicals written on them that are in, you know, multi syllables and they can't read that and so can be a danger. So, you know fortunately for US service providers the folks that come that are preliterate are not the majority but for folks that are it's a challenge. (00:17:48) Tom Gillespie, do do you categorize people by whether they're literate or not in counting the Immigrant groups in Minnesota from the data. We initially get we don't get that kind of that kind of detail. Basically, we're trying our best is to track from where where people are from when we do get the census data. We will be I will be looking more at the characteristics of the population. So when the 2000 census data becomes becomes available, it'll be a great Boon 444 these Trends and of course that that raises a whole nother issue because there are people moving to Minnesota from other countries that have never had a census before they have no idea what it senses is and in one of the things that we're trying to do is to work with with various service providers and and and Community leaders and accept her to try to provide materials to explain what a census is and and to explain those in the in In materials that are either written or presented in the language that the people people are used to seeing or hearing. Yeah, I think the connection between you and what Miss Troutman the connection with that you do or that the connection is there is a pretty interesting one because if you want to help people if you want to get more money for them, you have to know how much money you're talking about or how many volunteers you need are our social service workers and to a large extent as I've learned from from talking with you your work as demographer is really a lot of detective work because these numbers are not cut and dry. They don't just appear. I kind of thought oh, well the state just knows how many how many Hmong are here, but you don't know we don't and and we are we're constantly we do call Jane's office and we call the refugee Center at the Department of Human Services. We grab all the immigration service data. We can find we also look at things like School District data, particularly. On languages on languages that children speak for children who who speak a language other than English, but they're even even there. There are some difficulties of measurement for example children from Liberia may come into the United States speaking English and will show up as English speaking English speaking people. Yeah, so then how do you go about your job? What are you what are you doing? Trying to put these numbers together? We grab every piece of information we can find and try to make sense of it it sits right now what towards the end of the decade? It's particularly challenging because now the Census Data are are nearly 10 years old. They're getting rather long in tooth. And and we really need to we need we need to find every piece of information we can and so we are doing a lot of detective work on that right now (00:20:45) what other things I just wanted to add what time the Phantom that here. Referred to and it's made his job. I think even more challenging is that in Minnesota and the last five years and even maybe in the last decade but particular last five years. We've had a lot of what we call secondary migration to Minnesota, which means that when a refugee comes to this country they go, you know, they are sent to a certain city. So if I'm a refugee and I am settled in Washington DC for example, and I have family in Minnesota and I hear that in Minnesota the economy is doing very well. It's diverse. There are lots of jobs. It's a relatively safe place to live. The schools are good. I may decide that this is a better place for me and my family to live and that's actually been happening quite a bit in the last five years. And so we've had quite a few I think Africans in particular somalis and Ethiopians that have moved from other locations in the country to Minnesota seeking employment. I think the increase in the Hmong population the last year has really very strong example of that a lot of money moving from California to Minnesota because economy is stronger and they can get jobs here makes it harder to track though because they're not utilizing Social Services. They're self-sufficient. They're independent and so pry it's a lot harder for Tom's office to track how many refugees and immigrants are here. In (00:22:12) fact, so when one of these new Hmong come in, how many do you know? We do know that there was a substantial migration from from Fresno area of California. For example, this this last summer we are we're trying to work with our colleagues in California right now to find out what information they have and the information should be comparable on both ends on both ends of the number numbering end. And so we are interested in and how many people we do know it's a rather substantial migration of people that the move the summer we're also interested. In in where specifically these people are locating and we're anxiously awaiting from some School District data that will help us with that. You're guessing at st. Paul. I would yeah st. Paul is probably the most likely some of the people though may have moved Western Wisconsin, you know, it's right now, I really can't say until Claire we get more to well basically from there to here and there's there's you know, sort of a large Metroplex population. So what is mrs. Grubman, what's the problem then in our lack of really hard data on this what problems arise because it's sometimes hard to track and hard to track because it's a free country and people can move around once they get (00:23:32) here right? Well, I think as you mentioned sometimes it's harder if we're trying to require acquire resources that our agencies writing grants and trying to get funding to serve the folks that we see coming to our agencies then You know, we don't have the hard data sometimes although you know, we can make a pretty good educated guess but you know, you will hear that. You know, how many Hmong are in Minnesota when you ask five different people that you're probably get five different answers. So that makes a little bit (00:24:02) well and I hate to also think I would always in terms of being a problem to I know that they're having their employers that are also very interested in where people are moving to and in the fact that we have more people moving in because they see this as a potential source of Labor that that they found people to be very productive. And and so that's that's a very important thing for them to be thinking about to we've got Arthur on the line from Eagan High Arthur. Thank you for hanging (00:24:27) on. Yeah. Hi. Yeah. I could I moved from California to and a half hour ago. I feel really strange. Sometimes when I go by things like car our furniture people really, you know don't wanna talk to us because I have a like immigrant, you know from California. Yeah. No, I'm in California. I never feel is strange, you know? No I'm not. (00:24:48) Is your Pakistani? (00:24:50) Yeah, Pakistani, I live it like six seven years in California. Then I got transferred here sure, you know and I guess (00:24:56) people here look strangely at Californians. (00:24:58) Yeah, I don't know about that. But you know, like every time I go and they don't want to talk to me. I have to go and beg them to come and help (00:25:06) me. Why do you think that (00:25:07) is? I don't know maybe like they feel like I'm immigrant or something, you know, some people are really nice and you know, but sometime I have experienced the biggest don't like the name brand store. If you go there's the things I cannot afford or something, you (00:25:18) know the and they what kind of assumptions are they making about you. (00:25:22) They don't tell me anything, but they don't want to help like I can feel like, you know, I just been discriminated, you know. (00:25:29) Yeah. Yeah Arthur can that may if I might ask why and you don't tell me this but why did you decide to move to (00:25:39) Minnesota? Yeah, I got I got transferred from my company and options was so good, you know, so I decide to move in Minnesota and see the school systems are so good over here and and house prices are less than (00:25:54) California Jim give a family. Yeah. I have a (00:25:56) family. I have two young (00:25:59) kids. Okay. How's that going? How is life (00:26:01) here compared to California life is better. You know, I have a good position in the company life is better overall. But sometime I feel a little bit strange, you know, so it's that time sometimes it's problems, you (00:26:13) know? Okay. Well, let's will get actually a look at local and National International headlines in just a few minutes from Eric Janssen. But before we do that Tom Gillespie, what kind of from the sub-continent how many people are here? That's the Still relatively relatively modest number of people but the number of people is increasing and and there are all are also some some Community such as grocery stores and except for opening up in the Twin City area that are we talking thousands of pakistanis or know hundreds. I don't think I think we're talking more in range of hundreds. Okay, what about in from India? Also, the numbers are increasing but that's not they're not showing up as a as a as a major source at this time. I know there's also a fair number of Chinese Indians people whose families had moved from India to Guyana and then came here. They substantial I we haven't picked up that haven't picked up those kinds of numbers, but but that will be something we'll look at. Yeah. It's 11:32 and you're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Lorna Benson on the next All Things Considered Hmong minnesotans share their (00:27:28) Freeze Molly's been five years in the jungles of Laos hiding from Communist forces and the Vietnamese came the shamisen right right here and down here. He died in my arms and I he was six years old listen for a special series on the Hmong in Minnesota on all things considered weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota Public Radio KN o WF M 91.1 in the Twin (00:27:50) Cities Minnesota public radio's Main Street radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening rural communities through the community leadership program time for us to check up on the latest news with Eric Janssen Eric. Good morning oil industry experts say we could start seeing even higher prices at the gas pump. We've already seen some prices jumped this week in the Twin Cities for major oil-producing countries today agreed to cut back on production by more than 2 million barrels a day. They're hoping to bolster sagging oil prices violinist. Yehudi menuhin has died. He made his big debut and thrill the audience when he was just seven years old. He then went on to become one of the Country's leading classical musicians menu hint died today in Berlin of heart failure at the age of 82 New York Governor. George Pataki is telling fellow Republicans to forget about abortion. He says the party should drop the anti-abortion plank from its 2000 presidential platform. He says it's a dividing issue and the GOP needs to adopt more of a big tent philosophy University of Minnesota president. Mark yudof says, it will likely take about two months to investigate allegations of academic fraud among some men's basketball players yudof spoke this morning to the state senate higher education budget division. He calls the allegations very serious and says, he'll hire an outside Law Firm to handle the inquiry. Meanwhile, the woman at the center of the Scandal is speaking out former University secretary jangle half says an athletic culture that values physical Talent over education is partly to blame. She says she began tutoring players because she hoped her own love of learning might rub off on them. Congressman David McGee has had to cancel some Town meetings in Minnesota this weekend after he injured himself in a fall earlier this week. He is canceled three meetings on the farm economy that had been scheduled for tomorrow in Worthington Redwood Falls and Glencoe the weather today. Mostly cloudy in Western Minnesota with a Chance of light snow in the far Southwest this afternoon continuing into the evening partly sunny in the East highs today around 30 degrees in the west of the low 40s in the Southeast tonight. Mostly cloudy with a chance of flurries in the north and Central parts of the state right now. We have 31 degrees mostly sunny and International Falls Duluth sunny and 29 degrees Rochester, mostly sunny and 30 in the Twin Cities. Mostly sunny and just freezing 32 degrees. That's the latest from the Minnesota Public Radio Newsroom. I'm Eric Janson. Thank you very much Eric. We're coming up on 11:35. You're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Ray be in for Gary. Eichten And in the first our midday today, we're setting the context for the second hour in our to add noon Lynnette diamond' Special Report on the Hung in Minnesota, it's called This is home and want to make sure that if you can you should check out our website www.imtcva.org with lots of information about the series and you can actually see pictures of some of the people that Lynette is talking with pictures here and back home. Make sure to check that out npr.org still about 20 minutes or so to talk with State demographer Tom Gillespie. And also Jane grubman who's on the line and she's with the International Institute of Minnesota. Our phone numbers are 6 512276 thousand in the Twin Cities 6512276 thousand or one eight hundred two four to Twenty Eight. Twenty eight one eight hundred two hundred twenty eight Twenty Eight and maybe this is a good time to bring up the word assimilate. Our previous caller is a Pakistani who's moved here from California and he says he does get strange looks and I've mentioned the word assimilate because of the cake you are. Morning Show story Tom Barnard The Host this summer said in relation to a story about a man woman who had killed her infant. He said assimilate or hit the goddamn Road and that stirred up an enormous controversy. That seems to have settled down somewhat but It really created quite a stir in the Twin Cities and I'm wondering Jane grubman from from your work. Did Tom Barnard speak for a number of people in the Twin Cities who are you know, kind of a kind of fed up with seeing so many people here so many (00:31:53) immigrants. I think your last caller kind of demonstrates the ambivalence. I think that people do feel I think you know, if Arthur was an immigrant in as he was in California or New York, you're a lot less conspicuous there because you're just surrounded by a lot more refugees and immigrants and fewer probably Northern Europeans and we are in Minnesota, but I think that that most people that I speak to in the mainstream that he doesn't reflect the sentiment that I hear and I think also it's really important for people to know that whether you call it a simulation or whatever you want to call it just fitting in and making a life for yourself that by and large the refugees that we work with our In the immigrants. I mean just by Far and Away most of them want to want to fit in because what's it mean in means is getting a job getting your children and good schools and providing a life for your family and for yourself and and and they're very motivated to do (00:32:54) that. Do you count as demographer time? Gillespie why people come here, we usually don't have motivational kinds of information and you know specific reason for why they come here the ins does immigration service does have information on the status of their immigration visa and in that status and in some cases relate specifically to jobs, you know, there's a you know, the infamous Green Card green card Visa, and nationally, that's really the largest the largest type of Visa as well as the family preference people who come to the United States because their family member is here. Um, you know, what a husband or a wife lives in the United States and people move to be with the family member and that's called the family preference Visa. The unusual thing about Minnesota is we do receive people under those circumstances, but those are by far the largest categories nationally but a very large more than a third of all the people immigrating to Minnesota are under Refugee status and a second group that we have also seen a long-term immigration to Minnesota is slowing down now, but his adopted children has long been a source of major immigration to to Minnesota Minnesota is it was really sort of the last state that had a substantial Korean adopted children program. It really started here and and it's it's slowed pretty much to a trickle now, but but children are coming also now from other parts of the world. Now one of the one of the people who work so I think it is Catholic Charities, but I could be wrong on that. But in any case gave me a very good short definition of the difference between Refugee and immigrant or Refugee is somebody who was pushed out of the country and immigrant is somebody who was pulled out of their country. (00:34:52) Yes. All right, even even maybe a better way to say it is to that is a choice. It's a matter of Will and a refugee. Excuse me, an immigrant chooses to leave their country. So they leave by choice and Refugee is fleeing persecution either religious or political persecution. So they're not coming here because they've chosen to necessarily but because they've had to flee their country now (00:35:17) should we assume that immigrants do better in Minnesota than refugees? (00:35:25) I don't know that you can assume that they do but I think my experience has been that whether you're a refugee or an immigrant, it does matter because refugees come with a lot of loss and they have flooded countries that have been having Wars of been going on for a long times in many situations and they leave their countries and sometimes a walk fifty sixty a hundred miles to get to a refugee camp under much to R Us and get your refugee camp where they can stay for up to 10 years some of them and then they finally get to the United States or another country and they've experienced a lot of loss. They've lost families. I've lost jobs they've lost their homes. And so they have a lot of mental health issues to deal with as well when they come here. So as opposed to immigrants who have actively made a choice to leave their And usually often the cases that they have had some education and their country and have done some previous groundwork in anticipating. They're leaving their country. So I think it is a little harder for (00:36:40) refugees. Why are so why is there such a high proportion of refugees in the total immigrant Community here with a third is? Mr. Gillespie said that was that right 1/3 of the influx. You know Jason. Yeah, (00:36:54) you know, I think that there are a lot of reasons for that and I think that a lot of churches are very active and a lot of the refugee Community here is very active in hosting refugees to come to the state and then as I mentioned earlier the whole wave of secondary Refugee migration is largely due to the economy here the fact that there are jobs and people are eager to go to work and settle their families and you were mentioning about why two people come to Minnesota and just anecdotally I've asked my students that in our clients that and a lot of most of them tell me they come here because they've heard that people are welcoming here and also that it's safe that they feel like there's less crime here and then jobs So I would say those are the top three reasons that they come in spite of the weather. (00:37:45) So yeah sounds pretty similar to the reasons that (00:37:47) anybody else moves in place. Exactly gues (00:37:49) exactly right. Let's go to Ali in St. Paul. Hi Allie. (00:37:53) Thank you darling. Good morning John Tom. I'm from Somali actually and Jane. I don't know how to pronounce it. Actually. I'm from Somalia. I was born in Somalia. I have been here for only three and a half years. And the things that bother me is you know, I mean we estimate that I'm not really sure how am I how many Somali people in the Twin Cities but we estimating about to about 20,000 people in the Twin Cities, but one thing that bothers me back home is Molly asked you is said earlier. We never had a civilian government for the last 35 years. We only had a military role but you know, we do not care what they do as long as they did not broke the law of Islam but you know you women today in America they are I mean when I see Somali woman driving it kind of bothers me a lot because in compliance with the Islamic religion back home in Somalia during not allowed to drive cars. I mean, we are only 12 million people. It was a very small country that the government the owner did everything and where the people I gave water or food or everything but in America that doesn't seem to work out well and women's are driving cars. I mean there they kind of enjoy more freedom. I mean, it's unlimited Freedom. What do you think? (00:39:09) That (00:39:10) well, you know, (00:39:12) what do you think about your response to (00:39:14) that my response to that would be very hard because I don't like people I like to keep my culture. I like to keep my religion. Whatever I am. I'm very thankful to the United States for bringing us here in terms of getting the opportunity to get educated in terms of getting to the world of work and in terms of you know learning a lot of things but when it comes to religion Islamic religion is very strict on that area because women aren't allowed to drive and then that makes me really very feel very disappointed even though I wouldn't let my sister or my wife or my mother to drive a car. I mean those who are under my control wouldn't do so and I mean and it seems to be really strange and twenty thousand people today in the Twin Cities are a lot of people and they came to keep coming in from around the nation and isn't even from straight back home Somalia because of the Civil War that turn down the nomination for the for the past day. For the last 10 years now and it's still on and you know, you see a lot of people who made a progress who took advantage of the time given to them who are not on welfare on any more on on the work from welfare to workfare. Most of the people are working hard and they pay taxes and they intend to make the their home in Minnesota, but you know, the things that harm is that a little percentage maybe two three presenters of the Somali Community are not doing the right thing last year. I mean and you and you feel like they're getting painted (00:40:39) with a broad brush. Let me let me stop you just for a second. Okay, and ask the question, I bet a lot of our listeners are thinking right now and that is what is your what is your mom? Think about this if she's here or your sister or your wife about being under your control here in the United States? When in the United States they are not legally under your (00:41:00) control people want to legally under my control. I mean, I mean John, you know, we have something called the Quran. That is the holy text of Islam. And the Quran totally prohibits that I mean from women from holding a public office, (00:41:15) right? But that's not the legal that's not law in Minnesota and the United States. So, how do how do your the female relatives in your family respond to your feelings about? You know, how how they should be living their lives (00:41:31) here. Very positive very very positive. They are not doing what I told them not to do. I have a three cabinets they all get females they are here and then I'll driving a chorus when they need something. I pick them up to the market. They to care for this Rainbow Forest within this something or to a Kmart or anything that they need I bring them back on the street and they don't go to work actually two of them work. But I mean even back on the Somali they were not allowed to work. I mean most of the women just have to stay at home then they get paid from the government or whatever and you know, but when I see other women in Somali woman, is that are saying we are Islam and They are doing the wrong things is kind of makes you really really feel bad about it. And but what I want to know, (00:42:16) I would like to get a response from Jane grubman. Do you have one miss (00:42:19) Graham? Yeah. Well, I'm just asking him to wishing me. I had someone to drive me to the grocery store. But in addition to that I think that what he what this gentleman is bringing up is a very important issue and something that most Refugee and immigrant communities struggle with because they come from particularly Refugee communities come from traditional communities and women come and with their families and their husbands and I think Rose really change and just practicality often dictates that they have to change and I think that family soon realized that usually takes both people in the household to work to make a family successful and I think that that's a matter of time and then eventually women end up doing going to go to work and the role of parenting is Jared but it takes time I think for people to adjust to (00:43:11) that me anticipate a letter we're going to get it will say John you should have raked Ali over the coals for forcing his his female relatives to not drive right if he's not doing if he's not doing it by force if he's not coercing them and they are agreeing to not drive to be under his control in that way should people get angry. Should Outsider say geez that's wrong. And you know, it shouldn't happen that way. (00:43:42) Well, I think the people have to make that decision for themselves and if that works and his family, you know, if he's willing to take to drive his sisters and his wife to where they need to go. And if that works that's I think that that works and and who is to judge that but I think that what happens more often than not is that that doesn't work and that oftentimes a father has to work in the morning and then the mother leaves for work in the evening and they need two cars just like most American families. It's not that different. And so again, I think the reality of the situation usually dictates the behavior and it just takes time for people to accept that I think (00:44:19) and from Osceola welcome to the show. (00:44:21) Yes iíve been listening. I've been hearing this in the summer with my parents Aging in my mother passed away. I remember stories. My father is from the German immigrants the probably probably around in 18 no late 1800s, and they You know, they weren't refugees but they immigrated because they're where they lived there was Civil War. They can't be Catholic they came over here. They sold their Farms they came over here to farm. I've been doing what some research in us. Do you know my you know, all this assimilation stuff? My father was second generation American he did not speak English until he is in the third grade and they gave him my English reader and a German reader. They weren't allowed to speak American at home and they lived in the piers area, you know peers in Brainerd and area of Minnesota. They didn't speak English at home. (00:45:12) Did they tell you what happened in the United States after or during and after World War one (00:45:16) with Germans? No, I had heard. He was speaking that but you know, I'm sure speaking English by them, but they didn't like it. You know, it's going to be extreme culture shock, you know to come here. I mean, they were pretty much like everybody else here because they were European but I just can't imagine. I mean, I think we've been very intolerant to these people, you know, I thinking my parents cash they didn't even speak. Actually, no, they didn't try but they were white they were white. That's true. But I didn't and they came over with their whole group of people that the people of the area if you look that Trace back the ancestors, they all settled in the areas together much like, you know, the men are doing you know, I mean, it's all the area was pretty wide open then so they didn't have to a mix with anybody else. (00:45:59) So you're hearing HIPAA (00:46:01) hypocrisy. I'm hearing hypocrisy and all this and I didn't know the funny thing is a few years back. I didn't think that way but I got to thinking about that. You know, that's really hypocritical. We really have been here that long, you know, I've only been here on my mom's side. My grandfather was born to immigrants my other grandfather was too so, I mean, I'm really not that far removed from where they would be and my mother's family didn't speak. Well, they were a little more aggressive are they got German reader and an English reader in kindergarten, but they spoke German at home too. I have letters from and I need to We're hip pack or being Hypocrites a little bit too. (00:46:42) Well, I Ann's point is an interesting one in perhaps Ali's family will be will be different in this but many of the studies that have been done would indicate that on most of the behavioral kinds of characteristics like education Workforce participation fertility rates and things like that that that second generation children of immigrants often times have characteristics that are very similar to to the to the total culture here in the United States. So there is oftentimes a very rapid rate of very rapid rate of change and and that's I I would not anticipate that that would be remarkably different. I think, you know some of the work that some of the program's you recently presented on on the Hmong like for example the sewing Of traditions that some of these Traditions have have really almost disappeared in in the first generation of children born in the United States Jane grubman. I wanted to ask you and I don't I don't know if you have contacts down in Rochester as well some of the stuff that the stuff that we are hearing when there were the attacks on the on the Somali kids correct in Rochester in just some of my contacts down in Rochester were saying that the the kids who had a problem with the somalis didn't have a problem with native born African Americans in the u.s. It was just the people that they perceived as foreign, you know, you are our blacks they were saying to the black kids that they knew and then the somalis were seen as a as the as the enemy right some cases and then when not to paint too broad a brush in Rochester, but just in those particular instances any thoughts on (00:48:34) that, well, I think again the point we've been made Is you know when refugees in this case somalis move to smaller communities like Rochester and there aren't there isn't a lot of diversity that you kind of stand out and I think also that it's been a real issue for somalis here to the really struggled with a lot of the traditional dress that they were and the women often cover their heads and wear long clothing and of course, you know in this country you stand out if you do that and so I think they've really had to pay a price for that but I think would tell them is saying and it's really important to remember historically that you know people that are first-generation immigrants again, like your love this last caller was saying they may be a little resistant at first because they want to hang on to their culture because they're feeling a bit threatened because I've had to let go of so much of it and but eventually second generation immigrants and refugees do end up becoming more American than than anything else. And that start is starkly as always been true and I think it's important to remember if people are feeling that a little bit threatened because someone or school is different, you (00:49:45) know, thank you very much for your time today Jane grunting Jane grubman is with the International Institute of Minnesota. And also in the studio with us was State demographer Tom Gillespie. Thanks for spending the hour with us here on the you're welcome. And this is Prelude. This hours been Prelude to the second hour of midday and just a few minutes. We're going to hear this is home a special report by Minnesota public radio's Lynnette diamond' and again check out the website that this is home website at www.mptv.org. Thanks for all our callers to in this hour of midday.