(00:00:10) Good morning. This is midday at Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us six hundred thousand people are expected to move to the Twin Cities area in the next 20 years or so, that growth is generally seen as good news, but it's also becoming a cause of some concern where after all we'll all those people live. Now traditionally people many of them. Anyway would simply buy homes or rent apartments on the outskirts of the Twin Cities enlarging the metro area in the process, but more and more officials say it's time to stop what's often called urban sprawl rather than extending expensive new services to outlying areas. They argue that policy makers should Instead try to convince people to move to areas that have already been developed. There's a new survey out today though. That seems to underscore how That shift in emphasis may be according to the survey of Twin Cities area residents people apparently prefer living in single family homes on large Lots away from town rather than living in the city during this first hour of. Midday. We're going to take a closer look at those survey results and what they might mean and we'll be opening the phone lines for your questions as well. But first of all, here's Minnesota public radio's Michael cou with a summary that survey the report was commissioned by 1,000 friends of Minnesota in organization opposed to so-called urban sprawl the results based on interviews with residents in 13 counties surrounding the metropolitan area were not particularly encouraging to opponents of sprawl of those who have plans to move in the next two years 68% said he would seek a larger plot of land and nearly 80 percent said they would look in the suburbs or more rural Farm areas. The findings were presented last night at a panel discussion Pat sawatzky a panelist at the Is the commissioner for Wright County a mostly rural area between the Twin Cities? And st. Cloud. He says the region is already feeling development pressure from the metro area when individuals begin to move out beyond the suburban area or even in the Suburban area onto large Lots one Services is more expensive to provide to them also the the pressures on the schools and whatnot are are financially very detrimental to many of the local communities in the surrounding areas and the core City suffer in a very different way as residents leave in pursuit of greener pastures, the tax base suffers in property values fall panelists Chuck Ballantine of the Minneapolis planning department says the appropriate remedy is not to tell homeowners their attitudes and preferences are wrong, but to reinvigorate the city's to make them more attractive. So residents will want to return we're really encouraged by the degree to which were increasing the resident based downtown. We're planning on in selected areas decreasing density in the neighborhood. We're encouraged by the increase enrollment in the school system. We think we're doing a reasonable job of managing crime issues in the city. So we think we're developing a package will be very attractive to a whole bunch of people families single individuals empty-nesters. We let them all come and live in Minneapolis. The challenge facing Suburban Woodbury is nearly the opposite Woodbury city councilmember Mike Madigan says his municipality is growing too fast, and he hopes to slow it one method. He says is restricting Municipal services, like sewer and water lines alternatively residents May accept a more urban like environment in return for other amenities. I've seen a willingness at least on the part of our residents to approve and condone developments at higher densities. If there's a corresponding benefit to the to those residents, so for instance if Parkland they're willing to Ray higher densities if there's Park land given by that developers so that everybody in that development has access to that open space if there is a silver lining in the new study perhaps that's it Bill Morris the researcher in charge of the report says respondents clearly indicated a desire for parks and trails also powerful. However was their distaste for higher property taxes Morris says those preferences can be used to guide development people are willing to accept types of facilities that they may not have been willing to initially if it can be shown and this is the key that it will impact their taxes over the years ahead local governments do have some latitude in making those mixed kinds of decisions. So long as they can tie them directly to those key issues property taxes on the one hand and on the second hand the preservation of land in general. In particular Morris says a majority of respondents would accept a light industrial plant or commercial Office Park near their homes. If they felt it would relieve the residential property tax burden. I'm Michael coup Minnesota Public Radio. Well joining us now by phone is researcher Bill Morris of decision resources limited to talk some more about those survey results also with us here in the studio is learining. She's the executive director of 1,000 friends of Minnesota the organization that commission the survey and Karen Kristofferson is with us. She is the public policy director of the Builders Association of the Twin Cities. That's the organization that represents Twin Cities area home builders, and we invite you to join our conversation as well. We're talking about this new survey of Twin Cities area residents where people want to live what they consider to be their highest priorities and selecting a place to live. Give us a call. Our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free at 802 for 228286512276 thousand or one eight hundred two four two two eight two eight folks. Thanks for joining us today. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you Roger. Mr. Maurice. I know you can't be with us for the full hour. So while you're with us here, let me get started with you. Is it fair to say that while this survey measures what people are interested in virtually? Nobody seems interested in wanting to live in the central cities or those inner ring suburbs jet a reasonable conclusion. Well, I think that overstates it certainly among those people that intend to move during the next two years 50% of them were heading out to to Rural and farm areas in search of those types of larger Lots, but we also had about twenty percent that were actually going to move into city-type block situations and you know one in five of is suggestive that Are seeing re gentrification when we took a look at those folks in a bit more detail what we found was that they tended to be older empty-nesters in the suburbs who had decided to move back and one of the things that that they cited as a reason for coming back into the core cities was they would be closer to cultural offerings restaurants just general happenings going on and they were really looking forward to that lifestyle. All the other people are they primarily interested the ones who don't want to live in the city primarily interested in that larger lot more space greener pastures that tends to be the driving force quite clearly. They they're interested in more space. Some of them are interested in having more privacy not being as close to their neighbors. And so consequently the key really was on lot size here on Kristofferson least. Survey want a single-family house. They want some space some Elbow Room the do the survey results pretty well square with your experience and actually building things for people. (00:08:11) Yes, they did as one of my members commented last night at the presentation. He said, you know, the study could have been done by 10 developers and they would have told you to gotten the same results but had it been done by 10 developers. It wouldn't have the same credibility as it had by an independent research firm brought forward by the Thousand friends. So we appreciate that they did because we believe the problem is getting too critical proportion. We are using up land to to rapidly we're not efficient and we know that and we think it's time we need this dialogue on public policy that is going to move us to a more efficient use of the (00:08:52) land. So you think people's attitudes need to change their wants their desires is there yeah or no way. Meet those wants and desires without (00:09:02) yes. We think there is because one thing and Bill Moorish Addis pointed this out in his comments and I was glad to hear this is that the fact is it's not either or should we only develop in the suburbs or On The Fringe or should we just redevelop in the cities? The fact is we must do both things to accommodate that growth that increase the 330 thousand households the thing. I'd like to point out Gary about that number that is so significant is 330 thousand households two-thirds of that is us. It is not in migration. It's us who are either here today that will be forming new households are live birth rates. So so we have to figure this problem out. Hmm. (00:09:48) Layer awning. What is your what do you make of these survey results where you discouraged a little bit when you found out there is still so much interest in Big Lots and and Elbow (00:10:01) Room. I'm not discouraged. I think more than anything. It just verified kind of what we already felt and we're seeing and it just means that we've got a lot more work to do clearly and one of the ways we hope that we can kind of turn this around is to work with the builders. So that it is we can make it easier for the Redevelopment of our core cities and Rural centers and make it tougher to develop out on the On The Fringe land and farm land and open space lands and hopefully with this new Administration who seems to be interested in providing incentives not regulations, but incentives, hopefully we can work with this new Administration so that we can provide those incentives to make it easier and more desirable for people to live in closer to where the city's already (00:10:50) are. But will anybody buy these (00:10:55) be the (00:10:55) by these places. It does seem like people want to live in in the outer (00:11:00) areas. Yeah that Frontier kind of men. Audi is still very strong in this state, especially since we have you know, a lot of land left in this state will people buy them. I think that what we have to remember is our demographics are changing. I mean, I'm older and I'm an empty nester and the demographics in the future show a much older population. And so these large Lots these huge homes, you know far away from existing community centers aren't going to be able to service that change in population demographics. And we wonder who in the future is going to be living out there. And of course, there's always the question of gas price of gas. All of this kind of low-density sprawled out development is built around the automobile and if gas prices were to change go up or whatever those people would be hard-pressed to find a way to live out their (00:11:55) mail Morris that brings us to the issue of transportation and I was struck by by one of the items in the executive. Summary of the survey there really doesn't seem to be very much interest on the part of people to use any kind of mass transit system about 25% might be willing to get on a bus about 25% might be willing to get on a computer a commuter train but people love those cars they certainly do in fact, I jokingly suggested 21 County where we did a survey dedicated specifically to public transportation that perhaps the only way we're going to get people out of their cars is through Dynamite. It just we are attached to our cars and our survey for the Thousand friends tried to look at probably one of the most optimal situations for folk in terms of actually having a park and ride Lots within a couple of miles of the home and having either a commuter train or an Express Bus dropping the mo of in a couple of blocks from where they Worked and we still found that only seventeen eighteen percent were very likely to to Avail themselves of public transportation Karen Christopherson. It's often said that boy if you have those Nifty Transportation Systems why you can develop right around that what does a survey say to you about that theory? (00:13:24) Well, I think we encourage development around Transportation Systems. There's no problem with that certainly and I think it serves a good public purpose and will serve the issues of our land use needs. The problem is again, you come back to the numbers and there are just so many households that we're going to units that we're going to have to add to the base. They're not all going to fit. Neatly around that Transportation Center. So again, we have to do both things wherever possible absolutely we should follow the transportation corridors and In service, (00:14:04) let's get some listeners involved here. We're talking about a new survey of Twin Cities area residents their preferences in terms of where they would like to live many people who were surveyed say they're going to be moving in the next couple of years. And so they were asked where they hope to move to what kind of criteria they'll bring to bear in terms of deciding where to move interesting survey results. And if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand. That's our Twin City area number 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight learining is with us executive director of thousand friends of Minnesota the organization that commission survey Karen Kristofferson is here. She's with the Builders Association of the Twin Cities Bill Morris is on the phone. He's the gentleman who did the survey Margaret your question, please well, actually it's not a question. It's a comment about the things the problems of living in a city that I've encountered. That is the traffic. I sent find that the city fathers are not open to listening to the problems of truck traffic that is going through neighborhoods. And st. Paul Snelling Avenue Ford Parkway our truck routes now and these huge humongous trucks make it impossible to get up and down the roads easily. Not only do they congest the area. They create a lot of air pollution in neighborhoods. They are very noisy and they go all night. So they often wake me up at night. Are you moving? I would like to if I could afford to I will move where to well what are you looking? I don't know. I don't like the suburbs either. I my preference would be a small town where I could walk to the store and walked walk or bike to the things I need. Yeah, but the other thing is the airplanes we find that everyone's worried about the Port and having enough planes and and good service but no one seems to really care about what those planes due to neighborhoods. Thanks Margaret. Be sure to call sure according to survey results Margaret is not alone in her desire to get out even beyond the Suburban developments. Correct? (00:16:23) Yes. Well in terms of the transportation again, if we had earlier on different types of Transportation Alternatives two trucks and Automobiles, maybe we wouldn't have as much of a problem as we do. Now one of the points that that I think listeners need to be aware of is the amount of land that's being consumed in Minnesota every year in Minnesota were taking up 27,000 acres of land for urbanization. And that is the equivalent of Paving over or dividing over an area the size of the Mall of America that's every day and that works out to about 74 Acres a day or about over three acres every hour and so I agree with Carol Gustav. In the builders that we're getting to this critical juncture pretty soon. We're on how long can we as taxpayers in the state continue to afford to pay for the duplication of schools and Roads and so forth further and further out in the band and the ones that we already have so it becomes not only an environmental issue a transportation issue quality of life issue. It becomes a very costly issue as well. And I think that you know, we have a very simple problem very very simple problem. All we have to do is change people's attitudes, you know should take us just a few days right Karen, but I think that as people begin to understand the ramifications of all of this that we're going to start to see some changes and again because of the changing demographics (00:17:48) Bill Morris, I'm curious now when you folks surveyed these Twin City area residents did any of them Express much concern interest that the given much thought to these broader social concerns at Lear awning is Referencing or do they look at the the selection of their particular home as a purely personal matter, I think in part when we were going through the survey with people and asking them why they were looking into various kinds of a lots and and houses what stood out was that among those that are moving those personal considerations tend to be fairly Paramount. I mean, they're looking at their households needs now. We also had a group I'd say of about oh, maybe 15% of the the folks that are moving in the next two years that were very very explicit about various concerns traffic maintaining natural natural Ambiance. In fact one that one group that we Unified we call the preservationists that not only were set on moving to a particular area or a particular lifestyle but then very intent on trying to make sure that that lifestyle was kept that that occurred among City residents who really do like being in close proximity to their neighbors. They like the sense of community. They like the strong neighborhood system as well as in the rural areas of folks that really want to preserve those kinds of what should we call them Frontier Traditions (00:19:38) here. I'd like to comment on on both lie and am bills comments, you know the issue when you ask people I've come to call this kind of the cultural schizophrenia that we all indulge ourselves in meaning if you ask people are you opposed to sprawl the answer is yes, when we asked them would you accept higher density? The answer is no and we want both things. It's kind of like trying. And sit do we want a transit system? Well, yes because I want you to use it so you get off the road. So there's more room for me in my car and I can go faster and and that's a very real issue and we have to also be careful with how we frame the agricultural issue in an urban area. And the reason we have to be careful about that. Is that while when Lee quotes those statistics and their dramatic and their emotional and they are dramatic but the real issue is it, you know in our economy agriculture in the seven-county Metro areas about one percent of the economy, but what what she points out is right is what we value is that and we all want that sense of open space, but we will sit here and tell each other we want the open space. But again, what do we want to give up to get that so that we use the land so that wisely so everybody gets a little piece of the pie and therein lies the the The conundrum for us (00:21:04) Phil Morris. I know you have to leave and I want to I want to ask you one more question before we let you go. It is frequently charged or suggested pick your own term that people who want to live in Suburban areas exurban areas are fundamentally racist. They're just trying to run away from the problems of the city. Is there any evidence of that based on your surveys my goodness? I would I would suggest to you that racism is way too strong a term. These are these are people that the tend well one group we call them individualists. In fact that that want to basically be left alone. So in that sense, they are probably trying to escape some of the the inherent problems in in more developed areas, but by the same token They're also willing to accept as a fair degree of diversity. So long as they've got a large lot so long as they're not too they don't have neighbors on top of them. So long as they can be individualistic in terms of their own homes and and how those houses look are they fleeing the city because of City problems in part. Yes, but is that the major reason why they're leaving? No again, it goes back to space and it goes back to the kind of lot that the size they feel they need and their family needs in order to flourish and 76% really are willing to live with animal mile of an operating Farm. Exactly. Although as I cautioned people when we pre-tested that people tend to think about tractors and crops and chickens and and the traditional old. Donald kind of farm and is one person pointed out in the audience did we ask them specifically about living near a feedlot? And I'm sure that we would have had very very different responses on that. Well, thanks for joining us. You know, you have to run appreciate it. Thank you very much Phil Morris who is the head of decision resources limited the folks that did this survey 4,000 friends of Minnesota survey of Twin City area residents now still with us don't go away here still with us Lee running executive director of a thousand friends of Minnesota and Karen Christopherson, the public policy director of the Builders Association of the Twin Cities where poking through the results of that survey of Twin City area residents where they'd like to live what criteria they they would bring to bear and choosing a place to live. And again, if you would like to join our conversation, six, five, one two, two seven six thousand or 1-800 to for to to 828. We'll get to some more callers in just a couple minutes. (00:23:59) Okay for 10 points. When does Minnesota Public Radio? Spring pledge Drive start correct, February 24th for another 10 (00:24:07) points who is needed during the pledge to answer phones at our Saint Paul Studios. You are correct (00:24:12) again for 10 more points what's in it for (00:24:15) you a chance to meet other NPR (00:24:17) listeners free parking and funds right good now for 20 points and the win, what do you do next right call six five one to 900 1212 way to go. (00:24:30) NPR's Main Street radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening rural communities through the community leadership program news headlines. Now, here's John Ray be John. Thanks very much Gary. The Marine pilot whose jet clipped in Italian Gondola cable last year sending twenty people plunging to their deaths has now taken the stand at his court-martial prosecutors say that he was flying too low and too fast when his jet hit the ski-lift cable Massachusetts Senator, John Kerry's going to take a pass on next year's presidential race that leaves just vice president Al Gore and Bill Bradley as contenders so far for the Democratic presidential nomination members of Congress are calling on the Clinton Administration to condemn China in the wake of a report criticizing beijing's human rights record the report from the state department says China went into reverse on human rights last fall says the Chinese government backtracked on political reform while continuing to commit widespread and well documented human rights abuses Minnesota's revenue forecast is better than Factored the state is expected to bring in seven hundred thirty two million dollars more over the next two and a half years than projected in November 282 million of those dollars will be in the State Treasury by the end of June extra revenues likely to mean more tax relief for minnesotans and Congressman Collin Peterson says, he's thinking about running for the US senate seat held by Republican Rod grams Peterson is a conservative dfl who represents Northwestern Minnesota Peterson says, he's looking at hiring fundraisers and his decision will hinge on whether he and his supporters can raise half a million dollars in the next six months. The Dow is down about a hundred points at 92 64 in the Twin Cities today clouds this afternoon and a high of 46 overnight will see fog drizzle and a chance of light rain down to about 35 then light rain on Saturday morning some snow in the afternoon. We'll get it up to about 38 degrees or so on Saturday. Sunday should be dry back up to 46 degrees a nice. Sunday on tap that's news and weather. I'm John Ray be thank you John. It is now 27 minutes before noon lots of callers on the line with questions and comments for our guests Karen Christopherson with the Builders Association of the Twin Cities learining is here executive director of a thousand friends of Minnesota and they have released a survey of Twin City area residents attitudes about where they'd like to live in the metropolitan area. There is increasing concern about where people will live about 600,000 people are moving to the Twin City area in the next 20 years or so. And the question is where will all these people go. Where will they fit and we have enough land new land to accommodate all those people are they willing to live in existing areas developed areas. If you'd like to join our conversation, six five one two, two seven. 6,000 or 1-800 to for to to 828 Scholars from Minneapolis Gary. Yes. I've got a question. You're taking a long run look at the housing needs and wants and so forth being Minnesota's a high tax state and we've got comparatively crummy weather. What Gary what impact do you see when all of the Baby Boomers start to retire and a lot of them are going to give this state up and go elsewhere. Okay. All right grants are off the line. You bet these population growth projections. May they be off base? (00:28:13) I don't think that they're off base, but I think that Gary points to the fact again about these changing demographics that those baby boomers are probably not going to want to live an hour from work and commuter take care of a huge lot, you know. Maybe they would prefer something that is closer in you know, my comment on that Gary would be I agree with Lee. I think the trend there is a trend where Baby Boomers and we are going to come into the city. I already live in a downtown of st. Paul and there's no doubt. We're going to see that but the question again is what are those numbers and how many will actually make that decision? I think the caller raises an awfully good point. I already know anecdotally and I'm sure you do to people that made a choice to leave Minnesota because of property taxes in retirement because they just couldn't afford it and we don't like hearing that but I think property taxes is an issue that we're going to have to address. In fact, I'm sorry that Bill Morris had to leave us because he did bring up the issue. I guess he did allude to it a little bit that we don't we What we want but we don't necessarily want to pay for it. And I think that's a property taxes is a major issue in Minnesota. No question. And that's I think one of the reasons it's due to the fact that that we just assume that if somebody chooses to live wherever they're going to live, you know, say a land owner chooses to subdivide his or her land that we the taxpayers society here are going to pick up some of the bills for accommodating that in terms of building the new schools and the New Roads and everything and the fact that in Minnesota are our property tax system is tied to in our schools so much to places much more heavy emphasis on our property taxes (00:30:09) former legislator Fritz kanak had a an op-ed piece in the Star Tribune old couple of weeks ago and he was citing a study done by Duke University. I believe which he says determined that in fact the cost of services increases as the density of the population. Lucien increases that is to say if you if you were able to kind of get everybody compacted together costs would go up and they're wood and people would be priced out of the market land in Glen cost with increase. So on so forth. Is that true? (00:30:45) I've not seen that study but it certainly runs contrary to a whole lot of other studies that we've seen. Well, I haven't seen that the specific Duke study. I did see Fritz's article. But again, we have to be careful how we use and how we State the numbers if you put more people in a square box block does the cost for service go up or do you need more services? Let's put it that way. Well, probably yes. Probably you need more fire protection more. I mean just naturally if you have more people there on the other hand, you have more people to spread the costs around to so so you can't just necessarily say one results in the other now, we believe that In fact our study Gary in 1996 the Builders Association of the Twin Cities did a study that showed that when you try to provide infrastructure to around a large lot. It increases the cost by about eight to ten thousand dollars a lot. So we know that for infrastructure costs, but see we get mixed up between services and infrastructure and they're two very different things but they both come with a price tag, but we need to separate those. Those are two separate discussions (00:31:59) as things are currently constituted if I decide that I want a nice spread out in Wright County. Nobody around me. Do I have to pay all the costs associated with my decision to live there or is that picked up by somebody (00:32:15) else? No, I mean you don't have to pay all of the costs associated with it. I mean, who knows because right now first of all, if you're developing a nun Seward lot in Wright County then you have to I'd obviously your on-site systems. But again, I caution to get this debate for it to be real we have to say well likewise if I pay property taxes for schools. I don't have a kid in the public school system. Should I not pay property taxes? Well, that's a fallacious stupid argument in my opinion. So who pays the fact is in this Society we're all paying for each other. So I don't want to see us just isolate to say you have to pay completely your own Freight to do everything that's not even possible and I think it's kind of a dumb argument. However, are we as everybody paying their fair share that's the argument and and are they and their and there is some data that says in certain situations, maybe we're not and we got to look at that. We got to take an honest look at it and it it Bears on a study that we did several years ago as well where we looked at different land uses in three Twin Cities area communities, Farmington Lake Elmo. Independence and we looked at res the costs and revenues associated with residential development with commercial Industrial Development. And then with just Farmland open space and obviously Farmland open spaces and a great tax generator, but because it demands so little and services that often it can be in a community's best interest to keep some of that open space because you don't have to provide provide the extra services for it and whereas in the more low densities sprawling all kinds of subdivisions in these communities. They found that while they were huge tax generators. It was costing them more per dollar to provide services to those (00:34:07) houses. Great and joins us from New London. Go ahead place is think you have several comments for one thing cities are dying internally because loss of residents. So the the donut thing this is really bad and also Farmland will eventually be disastrous due to the sprawl. I understand a truck Farms are really declining most of our vegetables maybe by the You're going to see 2010-2020. We're going to be importing all our vegetables from from countries that do not have environmental controls and pesticide controls and a lot of these people that are leaving the city that you really do actually want to live there. They want to live where they work. And I understand maybe st. Paul ER or is doing something about that about building an inner residential area. But the lot of people want to live rate where the work is that's where the that's where the theater is and so forth. Another thing these people they go out on a five-acre lot and really what the end up eventually as they live in a city with none of the advantages of the city and he see houses all around them. So they just have five acre City Lots. They have done of the advantages of a see none of the shopping and the problem is that a lot of these people come out. I'm a totally real person as people come out and they complain on the farmer comes out there with his Manure Spreader, but yet that's what they've bought into. I don't know if they realize that or not, (00:35:27) you know Gary I'd like to comment on that. Because it reminds me of I think Margaret from calling from Minneapolis complaining about the noises in the city and this gentleman saying when people move to the rural area, they complain about noises from the farm and it's true and I think he's right. I mean, we all have to get a little more realistic about where we live and in part of Bill Maher says report was the trade-offs that were willing to make to get what we want because we're it's not going to be perfect. We're not going to get everything thus again the society that we live in we have to there's got to be some give-and-take. I think that he brings up a very good point as well in that is something that in perhaps this is a point that Karen and I won't agree on but we're very concerned it in the long term for few food security. And as this region grows and grows and grows and spreads outward. We know that the the core of people that are kind of locked in poverty. If you will in the core cities are further and further separated from a fresh supply of fruits and Suppose that could be grown locally and the problem with the urbanization of so many of these metropolitan areas ours included is that some of the best Farmland in the state is down in Dakota County and in Carver County. And so that's part of the reasons that these metropolitan areas settled where they did and we think that this is going to be a problem in the future again as more and more people are concentrated in one place. If they are in poverty, they don't have access to automobiles or Transportation options. This could be this could be a problem in the (00:37:00) future Brad your comment, please. Yeah. I want to First make a note of the fellow who called in from the area and Out in the Country. They're having grown up in a small town and I have to agree that quite often people moving from the large city. Don't know what they're getting into what iwhat did want to speak to something that's happening in Minneapolis and point out. Kind of a lifestyle that's possible in the inner city. Specifically the Whittier neighborhood is going through a kind of what I call a Whittier Renaissance. You've got the Midway Greenway going on the Jungle Theater reopening on linen Lake the Minneapolis Arts Institute is redeveloping the park next door. Nicollet is reopening or they're working on that and there's a plethora of Community Gardens and Community organizations there that I challenge any suburban area to come up with a similar number of amenities that make you know, the Whittier Renaissance and the what are your lifestyle possible? It's just a it's a tremendous thing going on there in Whittier, and I don't think a lot of people know about it. Okay. Well, thanks for your call. Brad. Now some more people know about it. What about the idea? Since people want more space and they want a little larger lot and so on and there is you know, some some effort by some organizations to get people to take a look at Living where development already occurs clearing some of these Lots out and making bigger Lots in the city's what's wrong with that. Does that work Karen? Well in terms of a development from a development Viewpoint, (00:38:50) that's a really popular notion and I say Paul I believe is doing that to some extent and also Minneapolis now the problem with that is is of course you decrease density but one would argue on the other hand you increase value because people's desire for this little larger lat. So the impact is frankly. It's too early to tell exactly what the impact is going to be but you are absolutely right. There's a trend in my neighborhood. I live for many years on the east side of st. Paul. There's a project where we took out a hundred and thirty six units and 30 will be replaced now was that good economically for the city and for the tax base probably that projects going to work it's going to do well, but the problem is you lost that hundred plus units. (00:39:40) Well, this raises another issue now I in the survey it indicated that over half the people surveyed said they'd have no problem with this idea of having a townhouse development or apartment development that included lots of Provisions for low-income people. They said that'd be fine. But when you go to locate one of these operations everybody's up in arms about them. Now what how what do we have a disconnect here of some (00:40:08) sort? Oh, I think so and thank you for pointing that out. In fact, I was struck even by the summary that Lee and I both have of Bill survey. It said if there were 30 units within a mile, but it went on to say it wasn't they weren't all for low income they said If a few of them were will say 10% Well, that's three units of low-income out of 30 a mile away. So it's kind of like the transportation thing the care yakking about, you know, I build the transit so that you can use it and I can keep my car and it's very easy to say. Yes. This is a great idea affordable housing higher density, you know, all of that's a great idea. But when the when land owner developer goes into local Planning Commission with this idea to build narrow roads higher density mixed use all these kinds of things that were working for. They generally are thrown out on their head by the local unit of government. And so I think this is very important for the for the listeners to understand is that you know, there's enough fault and blame to go around but it clearly is individual preferences and choices that are making these decisions in this kind of idea of chasing that illusory tax dollar. And the rest of that equation those local units of government find out is that they're paying more in taxes to provide the services and so we just have to finish that equation. I think too often local units of government aren't doing that. (00:41:36) Well joins us from Eden Prairie, good morning, sir. Good morning, an interesting conversation probably can be somewhat Illuminating here. I've lived in pray for about 30 and 31 years now since I was pretty young kid, and I've seen a lot happen what you described it used to be a you know, believe it or not a farming sort of farming Community. I was teased when I was a kid about being from the stick. So things have really changed to say the least out here. I'm pretty much for it. I mean, I I'm a demographic you guys were talking about quite a bit. I'm living in a development that's was one of the first quote unquote cluster development. Sneden Prairie. The reason I did it is because I could afford it. My brother about nine years. I'm going to be actually probably buying my parents house in Eden Prairie moving up to a bigger size lat just because I can finally do it. I personally am a Suburban guy. I don't particularly like the city. I've gone out with a couple people and I was younger that lived in small towns and I don't like small towns. Everyone knows everyone's everything. So I guess I'm a Suburban guy and I really the only reason I brought into the cluster development is because it's only thing I could afford I despise it. I'm literally living a top of my neighbor's house almost within 25 feet. And I know there are a lot of people like me who would like to live in a larger place with a larger lot and get a little bit of Elbow Room and you know, it's tough, you know, I guess one of the things you have to remember about this the people of buying these houses and wanting a bigger stuff is this is the biggest investment of their life and good grief all spend 50 60 Open house in Minneapolis and I darn well, I hope it's not going to go down in value. I mean, that's the big part of it is the money. Thanks Al you bet. Well, if in fact Al is at all representative that I mean now this is you keep talking about G, we need more density and we need more of this and more of that and L once of once a bigger (00:43:44) place. Well, let me make the point here Gary that the Builders Association our Mantra is we do want higher density every place. It's appropriate in every place that works but we understand full well that the market and you alluded to this earlier when you talked about how we're going to get people to change their minds. Well, I don't know the answer to that but certainly in housing because it is the biggest investment of our life lifetime. The real issue is we have to be able to provide those choices and Aldo the previous caller. Obviously he ended up in some place where he's Totally happy with his choice, but I would say that the cluster he brought up cluster development. We haven't really talked about that and I don't know if all the listeners know what that is, but but it is a type of development that we have seen work pretty well and it's a question of design and and open space and that was another thing in the survey. They said they would take higher density if they had open space and clustering development is one way of achieving that goal. I just and I and I agree with that. But again, this is an option clustering that we feel very strongly about is only appropriate in certain areas where perhaps it's the only option left because cluster development if it's done for example, where I grew up out in Swift County, it would be completely inappropriate and the other problem with cluster development is that if that common open space land is not permanently protected through some kind of easement then it's just opening itself up to be further subdivided in you're actually building like little communities than out in your rural areas. So it cluster development. Good in certain places but it's not the Panacea (00:45:23) now. We don't have a lot of time left here. But I need to put you on the spot a little bit. You have a big event coming up in June June 11th. You've invited vice president Al Gore to come out big conference at the convention center to promote what's called smart growth. Meanwhile while that effort is underway. And while we get lots of comments from officials about how we're going to have to do this. We're going to have to do that. We do have this survey and how are you going to change people's attitudes or is that anybody's responsibility that just going to have to occur over time? (00:46:00) The conference is really designed to help us understand what other states have done concerning this very this very same problem and in particular the state of Maryland, we like what they did with their smart growth legislation that provides again the incentives for people to do the right thing. So we see it as a learning experience in a way to show. I mean, it's not to say there's a bunch of us that are working together to help solve this problem. We don't have all the answers but let's keep dialoguing (00:46:28) Karen. Now you folks just going to stop building houses. You don't think appropriate anymore. (00:46:32) Oh, I don't think so. No what and again I come back to the market issue is that and you know, the market issue we have to understand also responds to marketing and the cities and I think Chuck Ballentine made this point last night the city's we have to do a better job those of us who live in the city of telling our story that we think this is a great alternative. And so I think that's one issue but I want to add something we didn't get into (00:46:59) briefly. I'm at we're just about out of time (00:47:00) but we didn't get into is how we use the rural land that we hold in urban transition and that's an important point because how we use that will determine if there's any land left when future pressure for development comes as it surely will as we grow in the region. (00:47:18) Well we are out of time. Thanks so much for Joining us data, really? Appreciate it. Thank you. We been talking with learining executive director of a thousand friends of Minnesota the organization that commission the survey that we were talking about Karen Kristofferson is with us public policy director with the Builders Association of the Twin Cities. This is midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio reminder over the noon hour part two of that special documentary series on slavery in America.