(00:00:00) Thank you. John 6 minutes now past 11 (00:00:02) o'clock. (00:00:14) Good morning. Welcome to midday and Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us minnesotans are one step closer to having the right to bypass the legislature and pass their own laws for that matter. They're one step closer to repealing laws that are passed by the legislature. This our midday. We're going to try to find out if that's a good thing or a bad thing Minnesota House Government operations committee has voted to approve a proposed Constitutional Amendment that would allow Minnesota voters to decide whether they want the power of initiative and referendum under the plan if sponsors could collect enough signatures new laws or initiatives would be pasted a placed on the ballot for voter approval or existing laws could be repealed if enough voters agree, 24 other states allow initiative and referendum, but Minnesota voters have rejected initiative and referendum three times in State history the last time being in 1880 this year. It looks like the proposed Constitutional Amendment Amendment will pass the house since it's one of the Republican majority's top priorities, but it will likely face a tougher time in the state senate is initiative and referendum a good idea. Well joining us this hour from our state capital Bureau to discuss that issue as Republican state representative Eric Paulsen from Eden Prairie, the chief sponsor of the proposed Constitutional Amendment. Also joining us. This hour is former, Minnesota Legislature Mark Ashe, who is the vice president and state issues chairman for common cause Minnesota and we invite you to join our conversation as well. What do you think should minnesotans have the power to initiate and repeal laws? Give us a call. Our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 228286512276 thousand or 1-800 to for to 2828 representative Paulson. Mr. Ash. Thanks for joining us today (00:02:11) pleasure to be here (00:02:13) representing Paulson. Let me start with you. What is you know in a nutshell here the major advantage to initiative and referendum? (00:02:21) Well, first of all Gary, it would provide greater citizen participation and empower the electric. I think Minnesota has a strong tradition of Grassroots activism its citizens tend to participate if they believe their involvement makes a difference in certainly Governor Ventura prove this in the last election and an initiative State's voter turnouts been about five to seven percent higher as opposed to those states that don't have it because people know that their vote actually does make a difference. It's not a wasted (00:02:45) vote. Hmm. How would it work just a simple majority once the let's say the issue gets on the ballot just a simple majority vote would either pass laws or repeal (00:02:55) laws. Correct? If the item was put on the ballot, it would be just a simple majority. Hmm, (00:03:01) Mr. Cash sounds like a good idea opportunity for the people to weigh in let the people decide now I know common cause has no official Position on this proposal but I understand you have some (00:03:12) reservations common cause across the nation has both supported and opposed initiative and referendum proposals within State legislatures the real question relates to the particular proposal in the particular State and there are several threshold questions that need to be asked the first is what is the need for initiative and referendum with the results of the last governor's race. It's hard to make an argument that there is a monopoly on a Statewide level by either political party, which has been a position that has been advanced in support of initiative and referendum in some states with the change in the leadership of the house the control of the house. It's hard to argue that you have this unbroken pattern of control of the legislature by one party or the other. So the first question Becomes what is the need and in the hearings yesterday? It was it was difficult amongst a lot of the partisan bickering that I think prevented representative Paul said and some of his Witnesses from presenting his as coherent a cases. They wanted to it was difficult sometimes to determine what is the need in Minnesota for initiative and referendum second element, which is it is also critical is that Minnesota has has chosen to prohibit corporations from participating in the political process of electing representatives and Senators. It's not legal to make a corporate contribution. Initiative and referendum according to the US Supreme Court expenditures cannot be limited in that way. The gentleman who came in from Virginia yesterday was testifying that a great preponderance of money on initiatives and referendums are spent by corporations. So this would mean that instead of the people of Minnesota being the being contesting over whether the initiative and referendum should pass all of a sudden you have the people of Minnesota and corporations whether they are Minnesota corporations or foreign corporations Farhan meaning not (00:05:30) Minnesotan not right not not not overseas representative Alton. Let's let's talk about the the two issues that trash is brought up. First of all given the fact that there seems to be a pretty vibrant political climate in this state that is to say no one party has a real Stranglehold. What would be the need for this? For this (00:05:50) power. Well, Gary clearly. I'm a Bruiser representative democracy is working well in Minnesota, but I do believe there is a time for people to take it upon themselves to use this additional mechanism of self-governance. Our country actually has a long history of Rich history of support for in this referendum in various States. It was supported and proposed by people like Thomas Jefferson Teddy Roosevelt in the past and you know, the economy's not always going to be that great, you know, the legislature comes and goes things aren't always that great and now is the exact time to put this sort of practice into place. So when things aren't going that well, you know, the people have an opportunity to either repeal a law or pass a law. I'm quite confident that if the state had this initiative and referendum right now, we probably wouldn't be sitting on it a budget surplus. Once again this session when Colorado voters put an initiative on the ballot it passed overwhelmingly to return budget surpluses straight back to the people in 1996. And I think we probably would have seen a similar situation here in Minnesota. Mmm. It's quite possible. Also that Inventory may never have run for office. If we would have had an issue referendum earlier. Mmm (00:06:55) special interests, especially corporate money dominates many of these campaigns in some other states. Would that happen (00:07:03) here? Well, that's a key point when you mention some other states and mr. Dane Waters who is the executive director of the initiative and referendum Institute was in town testifying. He said particularly in California some corporations and spent quite a bit of money the insurance State interest for instance, but I think clearly we tried to convey the message that initiative and referendum is not a tool of the special interests. That's really a popular myth that only Rich folks can benefit from the process fact studies show that when millions of dollars are actually spent on initiative campaigns that that influx of money raises doubt among voters and voters will take the cautious route and they're going to vote. No when that happens and it is by and large it's the best organized group certainly money would be a factor but it's the organized groups are going to put items on the (00:07:47) ballot. Mmm. Mr. Ash. Does does money actually big-spending actually heard a campaign in a state where you have initiative and referendum (00:07:57) I would say that it's very mixed. I mean the insurance industry in California was able to turn back and initiative which would have put much tougher regulation of insurance companies in place. The tobacco companies were unable to defeat a an initiative which would have which I did put much higher tobacco taxes in but the issue is not simply the money the issue is who spends the money what representative Paulson is proposing is to enfranchise for the first time. Businesses and corporations in Minnesota, there's may or may not be appropriate but it's a fundamental and serious issue at the present time when a representative runs for office. They are limited to 20% of their funding from Pacs lobbyists and large givers which means somebody who gives more than 250 dollars. There is an absolute prohibition on corporate money now. In the in the in the in this notion of a representative democracy or constitutional represented democracy. However, you wanted want to frame it. The people that we select to make decisions for us are acting on our behalf. We have decided in Minnesota that we don't want them susceptible to certain kinds of influences. One of them. It is business money. And the second is we want to keep Pacs and lobbyists and large givers down to a certain level as soon as we talk about initiative and referendum all that is is by the board you no longer have any controls and that's not a matter of what representative Paulson is is proposing. That's a matter of the the Supreme Court having said that on Statewide wide initiative and referendum issues. It is the right of business to participate. So what he's actually doing is he saying we're going to now have two classes of (00:09:54) Voters. (00:09:55) One class which exist because they are. Sentient human beings resident in Minnesota of a legal age and a second class who exists because a group of people from wherever got together and formed a corporation and want to spend some of that corporations money to either defeat something or pass something that's a very fundamental issue and it needs to be (00:10:19) addressed represented Paulson. (00:10:22) Well garion and mr. Ash obviously, I don't disagree with some of what you're saying. However, I think it's important to note that you know, I would argue there are many special interest that would prefer the system stays exactly the way it is, they would prefer to have a captive audience where they can contribute Pac money through lobbyists procedures Etc. I mean in California alone, I think it was two hundred eleven million dollars just 200 million dollars in one session was spent lobbying the legislature and I don't know what that comes out / legislator, but that's an astronomical figure. Even when you compare that to the money of the amount of money that's spent on initiative referendum campaigns in California. And I think you can argue that having that captive audience some special interest group interest groups would prefer that I myself don't take Pac contributions in my campaign. I agree with common cause and some of their campaign Finance positions, which as I think mr. Ashe was test is why some common cause groups support the initiative process because they've been successful with some campaign Finance reforms. Mmm (00:11:21) one other question here for you represented Paulson before we go to some callers what happens who protects the rights of minorities in a circumstance with the initiative and referendum and by minorities. I mean anybody who isn't part of a majority on any particular issue (00:11:38) actually the courts have been used uphold the constitutionality of the law any time. There's been initiative rep, you know initiative passed or you know, repeal even there have been Court challenges and so those issues by and large are protected by the Constitution. (00:11:52) Okay, we're talking this hour about a proposal to give minnesotans the power of initiative and referendum The plan to put that issue on the ballot in the form of a constitutional amendment is moving through the Minnesota house. It takes faces a little tougher sledding apparently in the state senate. We thought today would be a great day to find out more about the proposal what it means. If you'd like to join our conversation. Give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand. That's our Twin City area number 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight one eight hundred 2422828 representative. Eric Paulsen is with us from Eden Prairie Chief sponsor of the proposed Constitutional Amendment. Also with us is Marc Ashwin is President and state issues chair for common cause Minnesota been Europe first. Go ahead, please (00:12:43) just going to say I consider myself a conservative and probably a member of the libertarian party of all but concern that we have people in office elected to office by the people of Minnesota being told what to do after they've been elected as a leader. We work really hard to make sure that people get into office myself. I heard mr. Ash mentioning large contributors. I used to be a large contributor by that standard to the Republican party. I gave over five hundred dollars a year. To me. I put a lot of effort into getting people into office and I don't want anybody telling them what to do after they've been there. They are elected to lead us they make their decisions. If we agree with them we vote for him again. (00:13:30) Yeah representative Paulson, what's wrong with that (00:13:33) theory? Well, I I take it that the caller isn't talking about represented democracy and just you know, what one point I think to make is that initiative and referendum it's not used as a day-to-day lawmaking mechanism. It really is an extra check and balance. It's a tool measure of Last Resort. It's an exception not the rule and I just think that's the best point to make in fact if you cut out California, which we've talked about Washington Arizona, Colorado North Dakota lot of the states that have no distribution requirements, which my bill does have for collecting signatures. Then you eliminate a lot of the problems you eliminated a lot of the the money situations you've eliminated the the arguments for putting too many items on the bout. It makes it generally pretty tough to get an item put on the (00:14:18) ballot. Can you explain a little bit more what you mean by distribution requirements (00:14:23) sure, actually the bill that I put for the committee yesterday requires a 5% signature threshold. So five percent of the voters who voted in the last gubernatorial election, when I have to sign a petition to get on the ballot and those five percent of signatures would have to be from six of our eighth congressional districts and is the state of a whole so you can't just set out at the Mall of America and collect signatures there has to be genuine true popular support both from the metro area and from out State, you know to put an issue on the ballot. (00:14:52) How does that usually work is our their company their companies that do this? Right? I mean they just that's that's their business collecting signatures. So they would come in say to Minnesota or they're based here and that would be their (00:15:03) job. I believe that California does have some signature companies that work that and in fact, you can actually look closely at how the signature requirements have been influenced by her how the money is has been a factor. In Signature Collection because California used to I think have several years on collecting signatures and then they shorten that window of time frame to just a hundred fifty days and when they shorten the time frame to collect signatures that's where the money comes in because then it's no longer just Grassroots activity organizing then you need to spend money to get signatures and this bill that I have would have an 18-month window to collect signatures, which is right in the meeting of all other states. (00:15:41) Mmm Angelo your question, (00:15:42) please hi. I had a couple of comments one is I was very concerned with the possible repealing of maybe laws that aren't quite so popular such as some of our gay rights laws that we have that I support. My other comment is just seems to put power back to the people which I like but it seems very contradictory to the legislation. That's now they're being worked on that. prohibits cities from making laws that require residential You know employees to live within the city limits, which I think has a lot of popular support. So it's like there here's one thing going through that gives power to the people while there's another bill in that's trying to take it away. (00:16:25) Okay. All right. What about mark - what about the the issue of some of these hotter button topics the Bill of Rights type of legislation being targeted. Is that a in your mind a danger? Well, certainly if you look (00:16:42) at what's happened across the country. You see a very mixed bag while in Maine and in California and in And in Colorado you saw efforts to put far-reaching reforms in place relating to campaign practices in Washington state and Colorado in Oregon and in California, you saw initiatives on the ballot, which either were taking rights away that had been conferred by Statute or were limiting the ability of government to protect individuals and it tends to be to be targeted at at the at the at the groups in society that have traditionally drawn a lot of fire. I you see anti-gay activity on it unleashes and referendum you see anti-immigrant activity under initiative and referendum you even see activity relating to issues of of affirmative action relating not only to to race but also to to gender And the other hand you see as I said, you see some fairly Progressive initiative and referendum activity out there. The problem is not what what gets on the table because of initiative and referendum, but the changes that you've made in the political system initiative and referendum is not allowing the people to speak. It is allowing the people and business interests to speak and that is a very different situation. (00:18:22) I don't want to get too deeply into that but can you so what so why can't businesses participate in a situation like your why shouldn't they? It's not like they're buying influence with an individual legislator or which I assume is at the heart of the prohibition of Corporations contributing to (00:18:46) campaigns that mean the people of Minnesota really have have arrived at a decision that they've never revoked which is businesses should not be involved. In contributing to the election of the people who make the laws that's just a flat prohibition. We are seeing some efforts to to allow lobbyists who work on behalf of business to go back to the old style of wining and dining our legislature and those kinds of proposals have literally brought citizens in off the street and the Senate to testify against them now in Minnesota. We have a real feeling that politics needs to be open above board. And that politics is the ability of the people to express themselves. And while everyone is interested in what business would like. There's a difference between being able to express their views through their lobbyists Express their views through the press and being able to directly spend the money to create an outcome or to influence an outcome. And this is this is a fundamental change at the other thing just kind of interesting is here here for the Time, we now have a three-way political system and we have on the table to proposals. To restrict that competition one is the unicameral which would result instead of having a three-way power-sharing Republican Democratic and reform if you have a unicameral legislature the best you can hope for is either Republican and Democrat Republican reform or Democrat and reform. And the initiative and referendum is actually going a step further than that and saying we don't need parties as a way of helping organize ourselves politically and part of the issue is this needs to be discussed. This needs to be discussed in depth because we're talking about fundamental change in the Constitution and the way in which we govern ourselves and and from common causes perspective. We haven't seen these issues addressed head-on. We do know that in Minnesota when this has been brought up before and put to a vote of the people. It's been rejected two or three times. Mmm. So what's changed? I guess it's part of the question (00:21:03) representative Paulson. Does this breakdown of this firewall that Mark Ash is talking about does that concern you is that something that we should be concerned about in your (00:21:13) mind? You're referring to the firewall between allowing businesses to a correct influence an initiative. Well, you know, the courts have spoken on that issue and you know from my standpoint. I mean businesses have packs. They have lobbyists, you know, again, they have a captive audience that you know, and I agree with common causes efforts to you know to make some restrictions on this but you know fundamentally, I think that there are already problems with you know, labor unions business groups, you know influence through packs and you know five days after the election, I think it's suspicious when the ten thousand dollar contribution comes into a certain caucus based on how they did in the election and in regards to the comment about the people rejecting this in the past. It has been on the ballot three times in the state of Minnesota. Actually every time it is passed with a majority. But because the Constitution requires the majority of those voting on the question, it has not passed because if you don't vote it's counted as a no vote and it's been tremendously popular. It has been introduced I believe in every legislative session since 1980 and Again, just because we have a try partisan government. Now. It doesn't mean we have been trying to work on this issue for years and will keep moving ahead. Let's get at least one more caller on here before we break for some (00:22:23) news headlines Earl joins us from Alexandria. Good morning, (00:22:26) sir. Good morning. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion. I lived in California for about 15 years and during that time. I watched the state's quality of life go down the drain we moved back here to Minnesota because of the excellent quality of life. That's here. The library system was being shut down the school system went from one of the best in the country down to the bottom. Third. I don't remember the exact statistic now, but it just appeared to me. Everything was just going down downhill. What you're really asking people to do is be a senator or representative you're asking the four million or so people voters in Minnesota to make a decision that that they may not be equipped to make because of Education. One of the things they did in California during the referendum period was you get a voter pamphlet and educational material there and it was a Monumental task to go through all that information and make a really valid attempt at making it an educated decision. So a lot of people when you ask them will should raise taxes. Well, the answer usually is well know it's going to cost me and so without the education being there and to try to go through all that educational material that you need to make a good decision people typically say no and so the answer is at the quality of light goes down. My question would be have you done any research in compared to other states that have adopted this and seeing how their education of the you know, or their quality of life is continued. And also how do you propose a educate people for the (00:24:04) referendums kind of a broad count question their representative Paulson, but what about this notion that it's difficult to get people up to speed. Need to make an informed decision on what is often very very complex issues and doesn't it automatically or at least have the potential to 200 reduce reduce complex issues to very simplified approaches. (00:24:33) Well in California again is probably not the state to you know to compare this to because again, California has different requirements for initiatives and I don't think there's any studies that have shown that because California has an issue them reference. That's why the quality of life is gone down. In fact, if you ask Californians if they like their initiative process 74 percent said they strongly supported they don't want to see a change in any substantial way and you know, that's why the bill that I have a specifically designed so we wouldn't be by California. It would be very difficult to get an item on the ballot. I'd be surprised if we even saw one issue on the ballot in its first use in actuality. (00:25:08) So we're not concerned about this issue of voter education for the issues. That finally do make To the ballot you're confident people would have the time and the energy and the background is sort through the pros and cons. (00:25:21) Yes. I mean for the most part, you know, the legislature handles multiple laws are bills that are introduced in the last year. We had 3,800 alone introduced last session and past 408 new laws. And if there's only one initiative put on the ballot, I think the people can handle that issue. We you just referred the legislature itself. Just refer three constitutional amendments to the voters last last year alone and give that opportunity to the voters to vote (00:25:44) on. Okay, let's take a break here. We're talking this our about a proposal to give minnesotans the power of initiative and referendum our guests this our Republican state representative Eric Paulsen from Eden Prairie Chief sponsor of the proposed Constitutional Amendment Mark ashes with us. He is Vice President state issues chairman for common cause Minnesota if you'd like to join our conversation, six, five one two, two seven six thousand. That's the Twin City number six five. One two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities. Two for two two eight two eight and we'll get to some more callers in just a couple minutes, (00:26:18) Minnesota Public Radio invites you to an evening of exceptional Harmony and captivating rhythm with the acapella Trio you lolly you lolly Blends Native American traditional rhythms and contemporary harmonies to create a unique musical experience for audiences throughout North America. Join us Monday night, March 1st at 7:30 at the Children's Theater in Minneapolis for a concert with you lolly for tickets and information call six one two, six 739230 and ask about the MPR member discount. (00:26:49) By the way over the noon hour today, we're going to present the first part in a two-part documentary that I think you're going to find very very interesting. It's called remembering slavery history told by those who lived it. It's a Smithsonian documentary and features the stories and in some cases the actual voices of people who lived through slavery in this country part one coming up over the noon hour right now news headlines from John Ray be John. Thanks very much. Gary jurors at the Texas trial of John King are interested in a homemade knife that authorities say was found in his cell. They've asked to examine that weapon request came shortly after the jurors started deliberating on whether King will get a life prison sentence or death by lethal injection for the dragging death of James Byrd the Dow lost more than a hundred points and late morning trading as the market extended the previous day's slide Searchers are pulling more bodies from Mounds of snow in Western Australia after a pair of deadly Avalanches this week the slide. Our blame for 32 deaths. There's been one bright spot a young boy pulled from the snow and declared clinically dead is doing okay. Now Governor Ventura today named Karen stutters commissioner of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency stutters is a former monegasque. Oh environmental manager. She has a chemistry degree from the College of Saint Catherine and a law degree from William Mitchell. She succeeds Peter Larson who'd been an MPA mpca commissioner since 1996 before making the appointments today, the governor offered at St. Apology for an issue. He said has wrongly overshadowed more important news lately Ventura was referring to his saying on David Letterman that st. Paul streets were designed by a drunken Irishman. He apologized said st. Paul is a tremendous City and said, he's sad that neither Twin City seems to understand humor. It's sunny and 32 in the Twin Cities. Here's the updated forecast this afternoon partly sunny skies and a high near 40 degrees tonight should be partly cloudy down to about 30 on Friday mostly cloudy skies the high 46 degrees. We've got rain changing to snow on Saturday, but it should be dry on Sunday. That's news and weather. I'm John Ray V. Thank you John. It's 25 minutes. Now before noon. We're talking this hour of midday about initiative and referendum whether minnesotans should have that power it exists in one form or another and 24 other states and there's a proposal making its way through the Minnesota house to put that issue in the form of a constitutional amendment on the ballot next year joining us state representative Eric Paulsen from Eden Prairie Chief sponsor of the proposed amendment and Mark Ash who is vice-president state issues chair for common cause of Minnesota is also with us to talk about the pros and cons of initiative and referendum Steve your question, (00:29:38) please thank you. I appreciate being put on the air here. I've worked on this particular bill for quite some time and I just want to put a couple things in perspective here. The bar for this to get a statutory law put on the ballot would require based on the last election a hundred and four thousand five hundred eighty eight signatures. And if you wanted to put a constitutional amendment at the citizens wanted to they would have to go out and gather 167,000 341 signatures now let's and not only that but they have to be registered voters. So the bar to get a proposal put on the ballot is quite high and in my research on this subject. We were unable to find any any proof or any correlation between spending on initiative in the outcomes. And in fact, we have a quote from a law professor that states that there's there has to be some sort of a an implied. To say that an election was bought is to make an implied comparison between the actual result and the result that would have occurred under some hypothetical set of circumstances and and unlike lobbying in the legislature. The money spent in the confines of the legislature seems to buy an awful lot better result than Money's been trying to convince the general (00:31:16) public. Okay, Mark Ash that's always been a big issue with your organization. Is it in fact a cleaner process in a way? Initiative and referendum, (00:31:27) I think it's a it's a different process. It certainly is not a cleaner process because the federal courts have have rendered any efforts to regulate expenditures on this mood. I mean you simply can't as a state regulate this and Minnesota made made significant changes in the way in which elections were funded other states have gone. I've gone farther Minnesota beginning in 94 made significant changes in the relationships between legislators and lobbyists precisely for the reasons that the at the caller is suggesting which is that it is possible within within in systems for those with with money to expand to gain influence and in Minnesota. We've tried to limit that and this is this is this is a basic fundamental constitutional question and a question keeps arising. What is the need? What is the problem? Why do this at this point in time and I keep I keep searching for a clear statement as to as to why this is necessary. The threshold level is certainly an interesting one, but then you know, there are people out there who for for pay will go around and we'll get signatures which obviously makes it easier for for people with funding to get things on the ballot in terms of looking at the outcomes. it is as I said, it's a very mixed bag, but one of the reasons that we have the system of government that we do and why we don't have a Federal Constitution that was created with initiative and referendum why we don't use direct democracy at that level is because the founders were very sensitive to the fact that protection of minority rights is a fundamental task of government. And that they feared that the majority. Would use its majority to trample minorities and we have a complicated system of checks and balances to try and and and prevent (00:33:44) that is there any evidence that's happened in other states? (00:33:47) Well, I mean we have seen in Colorado (00:33:50) a Colorado passed (00:33:55) through initiative and referendum a Prohibition on municipalities and I believe also counties adopting. statutes to protect gays and lesbians California passed a referendum to to prohibit immigrants from receiving payments services from the from the state. California also had on the ballot proposition 209 tube and state affirmative action programs Oregon had a ballot initiative which was going to to deny protection to People based on their sexual orientation and Washington state has a proposition which would also ban State affirmative action program. So so clearly these have been used in some states to as a vehicle for going after after minorities in but on the other hand, I mean clearly when you look at a California California did what no other state has been able to do which is they raised taxes significantly on Tobacco. They did that through referendum the state of Maine has passed the only totally publicly financed. Election system in the country they did that through through initiative and referendum. But I think we have to come back to Minnesota. What in Minnesota requires this (00:35:24) represent a politician. What is the (00:35:25) need? Well, first of all, I just look back. I don't think special interest dominate initiative and referendum. In fact, it was mentioned yesterday. There was a study by Elizabeth Gerber like I was going to be released soon. It's a the money is not all that matters in addition referendum and they surveyed a hundred sixty eight different direct legislation campaigns in eight states and found that economic interest groups are severely limited in their ability to pass new laws. Simply put I guess money is not necessary for Success at The Ballot Box. It takes a citizen groups broad-based support and again, you can say things are working fine now in the legislature, you know, the economy is doing pretty well why put the snow, you know, I would argue why not now is exactly the time to put this process into place. And again, if you take California and set that aside take the budget surplus issue. I'm convinced that if we had an issue and referendum, we wouldn't have a budget surplus right now much like the state of, Colorado. Houston initiative on that on the on the ballot and in terms of protecting minority rights the legislators and many many states have passed laws similar to those that have been passed on on initiative an initiative form and the courts rule on those just like the courts rule on an initiative ballots (00:36:35) still let me ask you one other question representative of Paulson and seems to me one of the one of the points here that these are always lumped together initiative and referendum are they in fact one package it would seem that many of the concerns that people have about this proposal our focus more on the ability of people to essentially pass their own laws as opposed to perhaps reject laws that the legislature has already adopted at least if the legislature has gone through the deliberative process passing a law and so on and so forth. Somebody's talked about this as opposed to coming up with a new law. Do you have to have both both initiative and referendum or could you have one without the other? (00:37:15) Well Gary, I think that's a very good point. You don't have to have both. In fact some states only have referendum. In fact, if you go back to the founding fathers Thomas Jefferson proposed putting just the referenda portion in the state constitution of Virginia. And so no you do not need to have both. (00:37:31) Excuse me. Jason are commonplace. (00:37:33) All right. I want to agree with the gentleman who's talking about the problem. I minorities John Stuart Mill and his essay on Liberty years ago pointed out the great problems for that. I would also like to recommend to any listeners that books by Maurice Dubois a fringe political scientist, who calls America a Pluto democracy because big business so dominates the country and Deimos the people Pluto's from money demos for people. The Republican party was just announced the paper yesterday took about 3 million dollars from to Tobacco companies Mitch McConnell stood on the steps and bragged about the money that they had contributed to kill the tobacco bill. They have is do reject claims in his book and gives examples have infiltrated all sorts of organizations. Not only controlling the media but these groups like The American Enterprise Institute, which is simply a right-wing funny (00:38:29) about the well, okay. Well, what's your position here? (00:38:32) Well, my point is here and I (00:38:34) think it's a good idea or (00:38:35) not. The point is that this is an attempt by the Republican party to allow propaganda through the semi citizen leagues, but really funded by large corporations the same kind of used the labor movement for years to go out and pretend that this is a citizen group that really secretly funded by the tobacco companies as the tort Reform Bill was reported in paper just to Steve's Williams introducing a bill for tort reform. Okay, representative (00:39:05) Paulson. Are you a stalking horse for big (00:39:07) business now? I'm not sure what the caller is referring to. Actually the bill is got broad bipartisan support actually. And and when it was first introduced in 1980 and put on the ballot at that time, it was supported by all the candidates who ran for governor both parties represent Darlene Luther's a co-author of the bill with me. She's a Democrat representative Peterson from out States the Democrat Reform Party testified in support of the bill yesterday that Libertarians the party supported the bill and this has broad based support. It cuts across all political Persuasions all party lines. It's supported by minorities actually affect minorities voted in quite a few referendums regarding English is the language in California for instance. So it cuts across all socio-economic boundaries and E are question plays or (00:39:53) comment. Well, actually if I were a legislator or I was a citizen I would be running for the hills on this matter. This is one of the scariest propositions I can tell you that some good things can be done under initiative and referendum, but I think experience in most of these states were i&r exists. You will find that there's been mostly disaster not Either to the political process or to the economy or to the school system or two relationships between among people such as minorities and and others many many of the initiative the initiative and referendum that have been passed in many of these states have been thrown out by the courts and it seems to me to be a waste of time and money to be passing legislation that is essentially going to be thrown out eventually. We in Michigan we did put together a very good initiative to pass a bottle bill which has I don't even think his I don't know if we wound up passing it in Minnesota eventually or not, but we were able to do that but we were outspent 621 by the by the industry and by the unions, by the way, in this case, this is where unions and industry came together saying that that that that should not happen where we would put a deposit on cans and bottles, (00:41:12) but yours you are able to get it passed though got a (00:41:14) past. Yes over their objections, but the money that was spent indicates that in most cases that does not happen. And that's what I was going to suggest to you is that and at the other point, I'd like to quickly make please is that the legislation generally speaking has to go through a deliberative debating process and that just doesn't happen when you have INR where everything is deliberated in the in the public Arena. And as you suggested Gary that it's almost always over simplified and therefore people are looking for easy answers to things that are just far more complex than (00:41:49) that represent Paulson care (00:41:51) comment. Well, first of all say the car is right on a couple of aspects first some legislators are going to run from the hills. They don't like this proposal because it takes away some of their power it gives more power to the people and I don't buy into the argument that we're going to have referendum exists in States. It's a terrible process because in every one of those states, it is supported overwhelmingly by the populations of those States and in terms of the what happened in Chicken actually when we had it on the ballot nineteen, eighty one of the reasons we couldn't pass it on the ballot was because of the bottle interests. They tried to defeat it because they didn't want initiative referendum. They thought that they might get a bottle bill in Minnesota. So I need to call her in that case in this case is making a good example why it would be needed (00:42:33) Mark Ash the caller brings up some interesting points representative Paulson brings up some interesting points specifically having to do with the broad support that this proposal has you asked the question earlier. What is the need and what is the problem again? We kind of come back to that in your minded. If everybody thinks it's such a good idea. I mean, it has support in states where it exists and so on why not add it to the to the menu of things that we can we can choose from here in Minnesota. I think (00:43:13) when you know, when you're changing the way in which you govern yourself you have to have a reason now a majority of the voters in Minnesota have never voted in favor of initiative and referendum a minority voted for it. That's why it didn't pass and It's nice to say of the people who voted on a majority voted for it. But the fact is a majority of the people of Minnesota have never supported initiative and referendum when it's been placed on the ballot. This would now be the fourth time that it would come forward and I have not heard this morning a rationale for why it should be done. I've heard other people do it. I've heard it has mixed results in states where it has been applied. I've heard that one of our founding fathers wanted it. I wanted to see it in reading the state constitution, but it wasn't placed there. And then the question becomes again. Why what is the need and why are we going to enfranchise business interests to be able to directly engage? In passing or defeating legislation. This is a major change. This is not an effort to give power to the people. This is an effort to give power to the people and to business. It's a major change. It can't be glossed over. We are seeing in the legislature now efforts to roll back the gift ban. So that the lobbyists that Reef that who represent primarily business interests are going to be able to win Dot and dine legislators as we've seen in the past now. What we are seeing here is an effort to go back to where we were. In terms of the way legislators are dealt with the people rejected that that people didn't like that is why it changed and now we have this initiative and referendum question coming up again. And I think that the people deserve to have two answers. What is the specific need what has been blocked that should have been passed. That initiative and referendum would allow and why should business be enfranchised? And and those two those two questions require an answer and I think there's a satisfactory answer people can can make up their minds is it I said, you know, we don't don't have a position on this but we would like to understand why this change needs to be made and why this fundamental shift in relationships and power relationships and why the broadening of who gets to make decisions and I don't mean to the people. I mean to the people and the business why this should be done (00:46:00) represented Paulson. We don't have a lot of time left. But how do you see this debate playing out that it sounds like passage in the house looks pretty good. (00:46:10) Well Gary, I think that you know, the house is going to it has a long process to go through several more committees before it makes its way to the house floor and you know, we're continually going to be bring up some more Grass Roots support has broad bipartisan support again from you know, all the major parties Reform Party libertarian party the Republican party as it is platform. I'm not sure about the Democrat Party but there's Democrat authors on the bill, you know, and there a number of issues. That I would argue a have not been addressed by the legislature over the years budget surplus returns spending reforms unicameral legislature. A lot of these issues get bottled up in committee by one chairman of a committee represented democracy does not allow me living in Eden Prairie to vote out the chair who may live in Duluth. And so again, here's a fundamental way a final check and balance just to allow the people one more tool to use it when they need to (00:46:58) thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your coming in. Unfortunately. We're out of time, but thanks a lot for joining (00:47:03) us today. Thank you very much Q (00:47:04) Our Guest this our representative Eric Paulsen from Eden Prairie Chief sponsor of the proposed constitutional amendment to give minnesotans the power of initiative and referendum our cash has been with us former Minnesota legislator currently vice president and state issues chairman for common cause Minnesota. This is midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio, (00:47:25) Minnesota Public Radio provides a unique service that you can't get anywhere else. Not only does it provide you with in-depth news and information. It's an independent service paid for by voluntary support from this nurse. The strength of Minnesota Public Radio is the strength of its members join this powerful group of people who believe in radio that matters send in your membership today or call us right now. The number is 1-800-218-4243 (00:47:54) or today part one of the two-part documentary remembering slavery.