(00:00:11) Good morning. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us state of Minnesota. May soon make a dramatic change in school desegregation policy a state administrative law judge will be ruling soon on a new plan proposed by the State Department of Children families and learning that would no longer require school districts in Minnesota to move students around from school to school to make sure that there's a proper racial balance in the schools instead. This new rule would ban intentional School segregation and allow the district's to achieve racial integration through voluntary efforts. Just as long as students have the option of attending schools outside their neighborhood supporters. Say that racial quotas in school admissions are no longer legal in that this new rule gives parents and students more choices and getting a good education critics argue that By making desegregation voluntary the rule would in effect lead to a segregated school system. That would make it even more difficult for minority students to get a good education. Well yesterday the public had an opportunity to comment on this proposed new approach and administrative law judge will now be taking more written comments on the rule and then she will rule yay or nay on whether the change is legal and reasonable joining us today to discuss. This proposed change is the new commissioner of the Department of Children families and learning Christine Jax also with us here in the studio is Claudia Fuentes who is education officer with the urban Coalition and we invite you to join our conversation as well. We're talking about a proposal to dramatically change the state's School desegregation policy. And if you have a question or a comment give us a call our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight folks. Thanks for joining us today. (00:02:00) Morning, good morning. (00:02:03) Christine Jack's if we could start with you, we've had this mandatory School desegregation policy for over 25 years. Now why the need to change (00:02:12) it? Well, I think mandatory is kind of the buzz word that comes out. I think that we've realized that the citizenry is more responsive and things get done better when things are voluntary, but maybe the the more important issues are that we've been under a mandatory Rule and segregation has increased and student achievement has gone down. So we need to look at Alternatives (00:02:36) is the proposed change (00:02:37) constitutional. Yes, it is. (00:02:41) Well it revolve would it result you think in better educational opportunities for children of color? (00:02:49) Well it certainly the intent and the the new rule does require that the funding is Equitable and that they're qualified. Teachers in all schools the goal is to continue that the high academic achievement that we have in our state but it also recognizes that busing has not worked and that we need to look at other Alternatives. Does that answer your question? Well, and also I will let me let me add I really key thing is that and research is very clear that one of the best things that we can do to improve student achievement is the parental involvement. And so that's another goal of this rule is to increase parental involvement and that is more easily done when there are community schools and parents have easy access to their schools don't have to find Transportation hop three buses and also no other parents who have students and other students who are in that school (00:03:47) Claudia Fuentes does the urban Coalition support this rule change oppose it or are you trying to make some changes to what's being talked about we believe the current proposed draft of the new rule requires? Nificant modification if it's to meet the needs of our districts and our Metropolitan Community. Mr. Ogden. I just wanted to comment on Research. There's a wealth of research and education that has found specifically that school desegregation improves student performance. And when we mean desegregation, we also mean desegregation at the school site and we'll talk about more about that later tracking dumping things of that sort that has been just Porsche disproportionately misapplied to students of color. However, there's studies that have consistently shown that minority students educated in a desegregated school achieve at a higher level than those in segregated schools furthermore students from desegregated schools. Also experience long-term benefits, even after their schooling is finished and we're citing comprehensive Studies by Gary or field who was in town yesterday among others on this (00:04:54) topic. Well, you know, I'd like to comment that there really is no consensus and In the research. I'm familiar with the research. I have a PhD in educational policy. And this is an area that I have looked into and and with all respect to Professor or field. I'm familiar with his research and there's no reason to believe that it would transfer be generalizable to Minneapolis for one some of his research is dated and I think that we also need to be honest that Professor or field was one of the drafters one of the writers of the original rule that we're trying to abolish so there might be some emotional investment there as well (00:05:32) Claudia if students have a choice to go they're not locked into one school. So if they could go to any school in the district presumably why why would this rule change necessarily increase segregation? Why wouldn't that be better for the students? So they could pick the pick the school. I want to go to Well, I think the key word here is is voluntary and also the capacity of parents or you know, the when we look at voluntary or who gets to choose who she was and who loses, you know, it's not that easy to get it your child into a school of your choice necessarily frequently parents have to agitate them. We have I have no I've had numerous accounts of people who tried to get their child into a different school that they felt might be better for their child. You know, no question when fate when parents are asked would you rather go to an integer kids to an integrated school or school at has offers better education if it's a choice of one over the other they're always going to go for school that promotes higher education higher test scores higher graduation rates. However, we're finding that, you know, there's several parents who try to get their school their children in Middle School of their choice and they can't you know, there's There's (00:06:51) limits. Well, Gary and Claudia is it's really interesting that to put a different spin on that very argument one. One of the reasons ironically that students can't get into the schools that they want to get into is because of quotas and the school's trying to reach those quotas and then on the other stamp other side when you talk about parents choosing in an integrated school if they can this is their opportunity. We do believe that the parents if they have the opportunity to choose that they will choose an integrated alternative as long as the educational opportunities are equal which is also a goal in the spirit of this Rule and I have to say that I perhaps I have more faith in the capacity of parents. I've worked with homeless families. I've worked with middle-class families. I've worked with families of a variety of racial backgrounds and I believe that parents if given the information and I can understand that the district's I understand the districts are committed to getting the information to the parents. Believe that the parents have a great capacity to make decisions that are in the best interest of their children (00:07:57) one more question here before we get to some callers and I guess it goes back to the research that's been done so far, but is it is it true that if a child goes to a segregated school he or she will receive a poor education than if they go to a integrated school. There's lots of information that indicates that that is indeed the case furthermore. I mean in an increasingly pluralistic society, I mean education going beyond the core subjects, but also learning how to interact with others, you know, increasingly we have businesses saying we need to know what our customer base is about their diversifying and they get right on it. If they're on top of things in terms of how to meet the needs of their Diversified customers or customer base. We're saying we see the same thing here when children are in Integrated environments early on they tend to perform it much better levels and integrated work environments and in life in general. It's just something that comes with schooling and working with peers and there's another there's a few concerns about this rule draft that I think could definitely use some modification. There's no teeth goals deadlines are resources really there's no requirements for any specific specified goals concrete action for inter-district plans. If concentration is not the result of intentional acts motivated by a discriminatory purpose and a segregated School can't be cited for segregation. How do you prove intent? How do you prove intent intentional discrimination? And then it also states that if the concentration occurs at schools providing Equitable education education educational opportunities based on factors identified in this piece, then segregation is school. Can't be side. For segregation. Well, that sounds like separate but equal (00:09:54) Gary. I I think that I can go back to answering your question and thereby answer both of these these prongs that have come out. First of all there there may be evidence in other parts of the country East st. Louis comes to mind where there is segregation and there seems to be an imbalance of resources, but we don't have that in Minneapolis. The Minneapolis public schools get a good chunk of change from the states and they seem to be applying it very well and what happens in the classrooms in Minneapolis what that the resources the teachers get certainly we could improve but there is not an imbalance Minneapolis is a good District. We're talking we're talking this hour with (00:10:38) Christine Jax who is the new commissioner of the children Department of Children families and learning Claudia Fuentes is whether she is education officer with the urban Coalition talking this hour about a proposed change in state school desegregation policy. And if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand Twin City area number outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Claudia want to make a comment before we get to our first caller here. Well, someone mentioned East st. Louis last night, we had a there was an issue Farm over at Concordia College and there was a parent there from st. Louis and we had the opportunity to talk with her and she did site specifically that now that she her child is in, you know Minneapolis, you know, no disrespect to the find employees that are at that school district her child. It wasn't is in a much larger classroom and that the quality of education is not what she had before and she has been trying to do. Thing about this with her child and has met barriers (00:11:42) Joe and I appreciate those kinds of stories. I'd I resist talking anecdotally because I think that there are all kinds of stories out there and I'm glad to hear some good things are happening in East st. Louis and I'm always disappointed if I hear a bad story in Minneapolis, but I don't think that we can generalize those (00:12:01) stories. Tell your question, please. (00:12:04) Well, I have more of a comment than a question and what I experienced what my daughter is a sophomore know in high school, but when I was looking initially for kindergarteners schools, and and you're in Minneapolis, right, I'm a yes. I live in Minneapolis and it was just a nightmare initially tried to find a way to get her it to be in my neighborhood school. You can quite literally live across the street from a particular school and not have your child or that school because of the balance at that time. I had spoken with Pat Scott was on the school board and I got nowhere with her and she said they were even considering Honest to God, she said this gender bouncing as well as racial balancing and it got so far out of hand. I'm a I'm a real proponent of Community Schools. If you live in that Community, you should have that first option of going to that school. We had quite literally 12 school buses coming for kindergartners on my one block because they had a morning shift in an afternoon shift just the logistics of that in the amount of money spent on shipping them around and going through all the paperwork just to try to figure out who fits where and have five year old kids sit out in the dark because they have to have an hour bus ride was absurd. I like the idea of having choices, especially when they get older and but I really am a firm proponent in community schools for the you know, to encourage the people in the community to participate in the school at their new year. So, okay Gary, you know, you have to wonder this is Christine. You have to wonder when you hear stories like that which is part of the problems that we're trying to address with this rule. What what what could we have done with the issues of poverty which are the under which is the underlying issue with academic achievement. What could we have done to address poverty and educational achievement if we had been able to use that 22 million dollars a year in Minneapolis that was used for bussing (00:13:58) Claudia font is have we have we been emphasizing the shifting of kids to amuse? There are some all other alternative that that you folks would support other than what currently exists or what the school board is are really the Department of Children families Rings talking about is there some other way to address what what Joe was talking about here. Sure. No question poverty concentrated poverty has the biggest impact our and on influencing, you know, the opportunity of any child the environment and there's no question if parents like Joe saw that their Community School was not academically Well that they would want to send their child to the school that was doing better. And that's the reality of our housing market and how you know, we have concentrated pockets of poverty, which means then that frequently you'll see a correlation with the community. The community is the the school of the community in which the school is placed as frequently reflects the community that surrounds it and you know, like I said if I was living in a neighborhood and Mike local school wasn't performing at high levels and there was a bus ride away, you know private school parents have been busting their kids. I remember this when I was a child and I used to go to school and I would see the bus pulled up for the Plaid skirted kids, you know, that's it's one of the the paths to get there. It's a means to an end if we could diversify in terms of this this desegregating and an economic base where people live certainly that would do much to desegregate School environments and not have them. Well, the thing is you come up as (00:15:40) much this is this brings up really really a key issue here. I don't understand how we solve poverty which body agrees is the underlying issue to academic struggling. I don't understand how we solve concentrated poverty by saying you have this color skin you go here you have this color skin you go here you have this color skin wear bus in you way over here. The point is that this is a societal problem. And this is a greater problem than what the school's can handle or should handle. This is an issue of housing transportation and jobs and we cannot put this on the backs of our school children, especially when a it has not worked busing has not worked and be there has been no link to academic achievement. You don't take something that has not worked for 20-30 years and then decide to extend it to a larger area. It doesn't make sense on its face (00:16:37) actually, Sam Myers. University of Minnesota did corroborate that the test scores were better among students who came from integrated (00:16:44) schools. Am I pronouncing one necessity and it needs to be defended on a lot of areas. He didn't control for poverty. (00:16:53) No you did. Those are taken into consideration. At any rate. It shouldn't Joel be able to send his kid across the street to the school of his choice. (00:17:05) This administrator this administration supports that sort of choice. We support Community Schools where parents can be involved we support choice. So that parents don't flee our cities so that they are supportive of remaining in the community and we believe that there are ways to have opportunities for integrated Alternatives through magnet schools through increasingly integrated Community Schools through after school opportunities, but you cannot accomplish that sort of thing if the Harmony and the spirit isn't there in the Harmony and spirit isn't going to be there if people are angry and frustrated and ready to pack their bags (00:17:42) tally your question, (00:17:42) please actually I have a comment my son attends Minneapolis public school and we've been very happy. I feel like it's the parents responsibility to help gets maybe the parents who are at a poverty level more involved with the school's it may be intimidating to them. So just the other night. I was at a meeting where a teacher suggested maybe the parent group that is involved getting contact with the minority parents or the parents who are coming in from other neighborhoods and offer to pick them up and give them a ride, you know to various meetings at school and I think that would help a lot. I feel like having the cultural differences at school is one of the most important things to me and I live we live in a Southwest neighborhood and I feel like if you if you make the change that it will lead to more problems and the children and the less fortunate neighborhoods will not be allowed in the better schools. I really feel like that'll happen. Well, one of the concerns that we have is that unless we have Community Schools and have opportunities for parents to be active in their schools. The very type of parent groups. You're talking about are not going to be as Inclusive as they can because people who are in poverty would not have that the transportation necessary and would not have some of the other support of connections that they need to feel as if they can participate. I think that there's a greater chance of Parental participation of all types of parents if the school is actually in the community, it also offers the local districts methods of offering other services to families in a collaborative model (00:19:33) commissioner. Let's assume the role passes and we go down the road a few years and over time. It becomes clear that in fact kids are essentially being segregated in the schools. Is there any mechanism in this law to do anything about it? (00:19:51) Well, yes this or the political will to do anything about it. Well, I think that you have both the rule does specified that if a district is our schools 25% above the district average or if any school has 80% students of color they do have to become proactive and they do have to to give an affirmative action report and work with us and work with their communities and the adjacent communities if we're talking about a district to come up with a voluntary what they have to do this, but I have to come up with a plan that's going to work for the parties involved again. It's with the spirit of those who are involved those who are affected know best how to solve the problem. And as far as the political will you're going to hear from me and you've certainly heard from the governor that we don't continue on a path. It's not working you have open-minded flexible people who if something is not working. We're going to step back and look and and reconfigure it the whole reason for this new rule is because the old one wasn't working. (00:20:51) What are the consequences of the district's don't respond or what enforcement mechanisms exist for this to take place. (00:21:03) I'm sorry. I'm not sure if I understand what (00:21:04) you're you were talking about how a school district would have to come up with the plan. The council would come up with a plan was their criteria set up to determine whether objectives would be achieved or is there any enforcement or what are the consequences if a district doesn't respond the way the department wants it (00:21:21) to well there would be there would be commission recommendation with the commissioner me with look into this and there would be a recommendation for a cutback of (00:21:31) funding. And I was if intentional segregation was proven at a specific School site. (00:21:39) If the segregation is proven at a particular site (00:21:43) or in the within a district, if a district wasn't, you know, there was there's intentional (00:21:49) segregation. If there's intent well first we'd have to establish whether there is intentional segregation and then we would look at what we don't want to start out. We want to start out by investigating is there intentional segregation and then we want the community and the district to come up with a plan and then we want to look at that and then if that isn't working then there is Aid that we could withhold because they have we're going to give them money to help them solve the (00:22:21) problem. So if the segregation was there was no intent to segregate but the outcome was the same then there would be no (00:22:29) consequence there is A provision to withhold money withhold Aid when there's intentional segregation. (00:22:37) So what if there's segregation but it wasn't intentional. (00:22:40) Well, we can't that goes back to the problems. We can't solve if people are choosing to live where they're choosing to live. I'm not sure that it's the business of state government, especially when it pertains to Children where they go to school to come tell people. This is where your child has to go to school because this person is chosen to live here. I think that if we want to address housing patterns Claudia, then that's what we need to address. (00:23:05) Let's take a break here. We're talking this hour with the commissioner of the Department of Children families and learning Christine Jack Claudia Fuentes is with us. She's the education officer with the urban Coalition and were discussing proposed change in the state's School desegregation policy pretty significant change moving away from a policy that's been in effect for over 25 years now one which requires School desegregation efforts and moves to order more voluntary effort. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand or 1-800 to for to to 828 and we'll get to some more callers in just a couple minutes. It's a weekend of food and fun at the Twin Cities food and wine experience coming to the Minneapolis Convention Center, February 12th through the 14th. You can sample Gourmet wines attend seminars from some of the nation's leading experts and test the latest specialty kitchen products call early for a discount on tickets. And if you're an NPR member, you'll receive an additional $3.00 off for tickets call 6123715857. That's the Twin Cities food and wine experience 6123715857. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include the McKnight Foundation working to strengthen families and communities live coverage as the Senate impeachment trial resumes at noon today here on Minnesota public radio right now. Let's catch up on news. Answers Greta Cunningham. Good morning. Gary retired. Senator Dale bumpers is preparing for his presentation today as part of President Clinton's impeachment defense team bumpers will make the argument that the house case is a partisan rush to judgment. This is the last day for Clinton's lawyers to outline a case against removal from Office beginning tomorrow. Senators will turn in questions to Chief Justice William rehnquist attorneys from both sides will answer them a group of environmentalists is filing a complaint with the National Park Service to ask the federal government to ban snowmobiles from National Parks. The Blue Water Network says the machines are a nuisance and the national parks aren't a national playground. The group is also pushing for tougher pollution and safety rules for snowmobiles snowmobiles are currently permitted in 28 national parks. The heaviest uses in Yellowstone and Grand Teton parks in Wyoming and Minnesota's voyagers snowmobilers. Say their unfailing being accused of being dangerous and polluting the environment in Regional news Governor Ventura, announce more commissioner appointments this morning McKnight Foundation chief executive Michael O'Keefe is the new Sure of Human Services Center. Also chose Cheryl ramstad vas as commissioner of Corrections lost the sister of Congressman Jim ramstad ran unsuccessfully for Hennepin County attorney last year Senate Republicans announced their plan this morning to help struggling Farmers Republicans in the state senate say farmland should be exempt from certain kinds of school taxes. The Proposal is part of a larger Farm Aid package which includes one time property tax rebates and legislation, encouraging alternative crops such as Industrial Hemp Senate Democrats are also expected to offer a farm relief proposal the forecast for Minnesota today calls for Cloudy Skies Statewide. There is a chance of Light freezing rain or sleet in the southwest today and a chance of light snow this afternoon in the Northwest high temperatures today ranging from 10 above in the North to 35 in the south at this hour Duluth reports cloudy skies and 24. It's foggy in Rochester and 27 and in the Twin Cities Cloudy Skies a temperature of 30 degrees and Gary. That's a look at the latest news. Thank you Greta. This is midday coming to you. In Minnesota Public Radio and we're talking this hour about a proposed change in Minnesota's School desegregation law big change really and joining us Christine Jack's who's the new commissioner of the Department of Children families and learning also with us the education officer with the urban Coalition Claudia Fuentes. And if you'd like to join our conversation talk about this new rule this new proposed rule. Give us a call six five one two, two seven six thousand or 1-800 to for to to 828 back to the phones Becky joins us from St. Paul. Go ahead Becky. (00:27:05) Yes. I have been listening here and I have a son who's in first grade in the st. Paul public schools. And I think what I would like to see is have maybe these two people work to try to teach the public and parents about the positive things that come with diversity. I know many things that have happened for our family and for my son just that awareness. Of each other the things that they like to do all the things that are the same as well as learning to accept differences and be able to see those is just part of the game part of reality but I don't see that being played out in the media and the government what you know, I as a parent, it's you struggle with trying to get you know, some of we actually left the private schools and went to the public schools because of the lack of diversity and I'd like to see more people do the same but it's very very difficult because of those misconceptions that have been played out forever and you know, and we're really trying I think we just started a among PTA that we have an interpreter and that their needs can be met to look at a variety of different people to get involved, you know, but it's a struggle and I guess that's what I'd like to see and I like their comments about that. Okay. Well Gary, I'm II agree with Becky Ann and I'm sure Claudia would to I think that that really reminds Us that the focus here is on implementation and the means to to accomplish something that we probably all want and we do want diversity and understanding of diversity. We applaud integration and want to encourage it and I think that that is important. I think we just start disagreeing on the best way to get their party. (00:28:56) No question students who are educated in another diverse environment tend to have a much more successful rate of working in diverse environments and the long-term effects even pull secondarily have been observed kids of color who go to schools that are desegregated for some reason tend to be a prized more of college options. We've seen that time and time again, but have we put too much emphasis on this idea of making sure that they're we have achieved a racial balance to the point where other educational goals have had play. Second fiddle to that to that number balancing. (00:29:34) Well, I think that that that has happened and we need to make sure to continue to offer Parents Choice and opportunities. And again we go back to the fact that this past rule did not work if we want diversity and if we want integration we have to look at the fact that mandates did not work. The City of Minneapolis went from 17 percent students of color to 70 percent during mandated busing because there was white flight what we want to do is give people the choice We believe that parent this is a new generation. This is a new time but people do not like to be told what to do. They want to have opportunities and if they can go to their community school and if they can have some say they're not going to run from they're not going to run from diversity. They're not going to run from integration. They're going to embrace it with your running. Was having their child bust for to our bus for an hour to go to two hours of (00:30:35) kindergarten. Well, it's all about educational achievement and if our school system or is imperative that our school system educates our minority populations in a way that would help them achieve better life chances. We would like to see that play out definitely minority or graduation rates are going to be largely driven by our minority populations in Minnesota. It's a fastest-growing. (00:31:05) We you're not going to get an argument from the commissioner of education on the need to to close the learning gap between white students and minority students. That is something that we need to address but this racial racially isolated districts are not going to be solved by moving students around we need to focus on their education. We need to focus on their achievement an African-American student does not need to be sitting next to a white student in order to learn the student needs to be guaranteed competent teachers good Curriculum resources and that is something that we do have and that is something that we are committed to continue (00:31:45) Claudia care to comment because that's really does seem to get to the heart of the heart of the issue. I mean if you've got even if you have a large number of students of color in the school if that's cool has all the all the money and the resources and so on and the parents can you know go to the PTA meetings and so on so forth won't that work for the kids? We haven't seen that happen on a real regular basis citing the value of desegregation on educational attainment. There's a variety of studies for instance. There's a study in Norfolk, Virginia that did away with my Natori busing and they did not meet any of their goals a decade later. In fact, the segregated schools. The racially isolated schools tended to have a concentration of poverty again, and in some cases a hundred percent of students. Eligible eligible for free and reduced lunch and the level of achievement of these recently racially isolated schools was dismal and you know, you can throw a lot of money. I mean people throw a lot of money at Title 1 programs and we found that you know, again hearkening to the re-segregation that the doorstop some kids have been put in remedial programs disproportionately kids of color. In fact, it's been said it was cited yesterday of a professor son who happen to be African-American was automatically put into a title one program, which is a remedial program and the parent went back and said wait a minute. Why did you automatically put my child in to Title One program? Well, that's there's a cash incentive there. (00:33:20) Well, I think that you know Claudia once again brought up through the poverty issue, which is clearly a problem and something that needs to be addressed. But I don't think that we I don't think that we are D concentrating poverty when we mandate buses. We have every example to show that As opposite of what happened? (00:33:41) Let's go back to the phones are see your comment, (00:33:43) please. Yes, I think the problem that every parent faces they want to get an adequate education for their children for the children. And I know that the state has just recently gone through a process by which they they rate the quality of schools based upon a scale that's developed to guarantee that the schools are making adequate yearly progress. If you look at Minneapolis and st. Paul though, I think you find that most of the school's their score very low on the state's rating scale, which means that a parent whether they're black or white in Minneapolis and Saint Paul might have difficulty difficulty finding a school in their neighborhood or even in their General District that that they really want to send their kid to based upon the quality of Education that's provided and that without the state being involved in making sure that parents have options to get their kids into the schools that do in fact give better education. How is apparent supposed to Make a choice or they left with a choice among the worst schools in the state are can they make choices to get their kids into other schools that are located outside of their neighborhoods commissioner. Well, this rule is a step in that direction. The old rule was juggling this the children around from one racially isolated school to another one and you know back and forth one of the things that maybe we're not stating or what isn't clear here is that I'm I guess my question would be to Claudia. Do you want to keep the old rule where we're just dealing with what's happening with in Minneapolis and st. Paul and not involving the suburbs through any kind of choice. (00:35:27) Well, I would like to see a rule that would affirm that we systematically meet the stated goals of concrete action for district or inter-district plans. Well this to reach do (00:35:40) Achievement this rule. It does involve adjacent districts. The old rule does not the old rule keeps the district's isolated and basically says Minneapolis if your racially segregated, oh well and if you have schools that are well try to juggle moving the students around within that segregation the new rule states that a district that is racially identifiable has to work and come up with plans of the adjacent with the adjacent (00:36:12) districts. If if a parent is in say Minneapolis or st. Paul answers, he says and not satisfied at all with any of the schools in the district under this new plan. Can they just send their kid off to Wayzata if they want to (00:36:28) well we have open enrollment. So they have that option if the receiving school that they want to send their child who has an opening and if a student is in a school that's 25% above the The average of students of color are the school itself has 90% or more students of color. Then the district has to accommodate that student leaving if that student wants to (00:36:52) leave. Well the busing be paid for if it's outside the city limit. (00:36:57) No. I mean, I mean for all the obvious things if we have somebody who's going to school in Minneapolis and they prefer to go to Ely where maybe another parent lives we can't do that. And you know, where do we draw those lines but that you know there there are things that that can be done within Islam for bringing people to the table, which is the spirit of this new rule to have the discussion if we have an isolated district and they are forced to go discuss what's going on with the surrounding suburbs. That's where things can happen in their schools magnet schools can be looked at schools that are near the borders can be looked at. I have faith in local control and people who are living with the problem coming up with some solutions that doesn't have to be mandated from my office. We will get to that point if a school is not cooperating or district is not cooperating, but I have no reason to believe that school districts do not want the best for their students and do not To achieve integration (00:38:01) Rosemary your comment, please (00:38:03) yes, I turned in a little bit late, but it seems to me I heard some confusion between the East st. Louis schools and the st. Louis schools the East st. Louis schools are in terrible condition as I understand it. However, the st. Louis schools have been under a negotiated settlement from a court case for a number of years and have a voluntary inter-district transfer plan that moves thousands of St. Louis students out into the suburbs and it's been shown to be quite successful in improving the high school graduation rate. The participants are graduating at Double the rate of their peers back inside the city and I'm wondering what the commissioner thinks about something like that which would be a much more massive transfer of students between districts and now Allowed by open enrollment and also considering that it probably would take Um State incentives to get districts moving on this first of all, the when I use the example of East st. Louis see the example. I was really trying to make is that different cities are facing different problems are segregated for different reasons have different citizens with different spirit and looking at things differently and and how important local control is and how important it is to not take what's going on somewhere else and believe that we can just transplanted here and make it work but as far as options of integration and and talking about busing Mass students out of particular areas and into other areas. No that is not what we're looking for. That is the idea of busting into the suburbs is increasing what we were doing in Minneapolis that didn't work and the there is not conclusive evidence that busing translates to higher academic. Which is what I heard the caller say that she's interested in increasing academic achievement. There are things that we're trying to do to improve academic achievement, but I don't think that happens by making schoolchildren solve the issues of housing in our metropolitan areas Claudia. Do you think a wide-scale (00:40:18) bussing interdisciplinary inter-district type of busing program would be the solution the long-term solution to the problem as you see it. Well a comment on the the st. Louis and her District plan that was motivated by a lawsuit people take very seriously, of course the education of their children and we would like to see a plan that wouldn't that would leave less up to a possible Court action and more up to negotiation of course district-wide busing, you know, we have to take a look at all the options that exist. You know, again, the Vitality of Minnesota's like livelihood is Really due to the education of their of their citizens and what works what will work to get the achievement Gap closed? (00:41:08) Well, we want to close achievement. But also what is the spirit of integration? Why do we want integration? We want integration because we want understanding we want tolerance. We want familiarity. We want Harmony and there's no evidence to believe that when you force people and mandate to people to do things that they come at the problem with that with openness to that. You don't get Harmony and understanding and tolerance when people are angry at what you're doing to them and busing people is doing something to people it's forcing them to not have choice in their children's education and we're not supportive of taken away that kind of choice this Administration wants students and parents to have choices about something that is so important as their (00:41:53) education Claudia. What about forcing people to participate in doesn't that just in? Under more ill-will than you could ever possibly deal with her. Well, no question. There's a lot of resistance to change with housing and what have you we are going to see resistance and fear. I think there's been a mistake. There's been a misunderstanding with regard to you know, perhaps white parents have something to lose by a desegregated school system. And in fact, we just have not had seen that happen test scores are still good by and large for you know, a majority of your white students. They tend to test better A lot of that is due of course to verbal the things that's what we looked at in the data in any event getting back to your question. I think a lot of the opposition was motivated by perhaps The Observer the misunderstanding that people might have something to lose when in 1972 when desegregation was first implemented in Minnesota. It was as a result of a court case. It was Booker versus Special School District number one and there. Some opposition but by and large there was not the huge, you know middle class. There was not a real large group of people that quit sending their kids to the public schools. It was a trend that more and more folks moved out to the suburbs for a variety of reasons weren't wasn't wasn't the school issue though. One of the primary reasons that so many white people left the City of Minneapolis, but it ball for them. Well, it wasn't in Minneapolis from what I've read and I looked at the research or I went and looked at the report to the commissioner back in 72 127 occasion for started. There was some that left but it wasn't huge huge (00:43:34) numbers schools are very important reason why people move often I mean wherever they're not move often, but often that's the reason people are moving people even when they're being transplanted from other areas do two jobs. One of the first things people will do is come check out at all the schools. This is a very important issue to people and when I've talked to people and what I've heard people talk about is not I'm taking my Get out of the school and we're moving because they're sitting the child is sitting next to a black student. That's not it it's because they'd lost their choice in their opportunity to choose where their child is going to go to school. I think that although the idea of busing is based on issues of segregation and race the personal choices that people are making about where to send their their children has to do with whether they feel that they have a choice in that education and quality of that education and not who is attending that school with their children. (00:44:32) Unfortunately, we are almost out of time here and I do want to get a couple of other questions asked first of all, is it too late for people to weigh in on this? (00:44:42) No, the judge is taking letters at this point and that will be open until February 9th. And then what happens once the (00:44:53) judge lets assume that the judge says, okay, this meets the legal standards. So on is that mean the rule then becomes the new rule of the state of Minnesota is the legislature have to (00:45:03) act no be the judge will make that ruling. It does become the new rule and I think it's important in case some of your listeners don't know this that this process has been going on for a very long time. We have been hearing from people holding hearings and investigating and doing research for 10 years coming to this conclusion. Are you (00:45:23) folks surprised that given the potential volatility of this issue and we're talking about busing we're talking about race. We're talking about kids schools while this has been going on for a long time. It really hasn't gotten all that much attention. Well, I think the profile of learning is getting a lot of people's attention actually. What about you (00:45:45) Christine? Well, yes, I guess I was just kind of reflecting on that question because from where I sit and where I've been involved it has seemed like it has gotten a lot of attention. So I guess I didn't have that same. A perspective. So that's that's hard to respond to that. But I also agree with Claudia that people are really looking at the profiles of learning which incidentally is are they attempt to make sure that students are learning (00:46:12) we should have another show about that one actually yesterday Christine. I went to the hearing early because during the teacher licensure public hearing there was a line down the hall over in Little Canada at the public hearing place. So I got the really early yesterday thinking. Well, I want to get in and sign in 10 people were there there was no line that did surprise me frankly. But like I say when I usually open the paper to read something about schooling it's a lot of times it has to do with the profile of learning we have to run. Thanks so much for joining us today. Appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you our guest this our Christine Jack's new commissioner of the Department of Children families and learning and Claudia fantasy has been with us. She's the education officer with the urban Coalition. 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