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RACHEL REABE: MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant-making, leadership training, and convening. We invite you to visit the Mainstreet website. Go to www.mpr.org, where you can hear today's program at your convenience as well as other Mainstreet reports. The address, again, is www.mpr.org.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Good afternoon, and welcome to this special Mainstreet Radio show. I'm Rachel Reabe, and we're broadcasting from the Prairie Wetlands Learning Center in Fergus Falls. Minnesota's 60-day duck season opened this past weekend. We have more waterfowl hunters in this state than any place in the nation. Some 130,000 duck hunters are expected to shoot 800,000 ducks here in the next two months. Mainstreet Radio's Dan Gunderson spent a few hours in a duck blind this week near Fergus Falls and filed this report.

DAN GUNDERSON: It's 6 o'clock on a rainy, windy morning when I meet Andy Anderson at the intersection of two Otter Tail County roads. I follow his tail lights down the twisting, muddy track to his hunting shack. Inside the small three-room cabin, Andy's brother-in-law, Don Melham, has the coffeepot ready. Both men have been hunting ducks for more than 50 years. That's thousands of hours of sitting in the rain, snow, and bitter wind of October.

ANDY ANDERSON: Hunters gotta be a little crazy because they get up in the middle of the night in the rough weather they like the best. And so you gotta be a little crazy. But to me, the biggest thrill is to see some ducks flying and see the wing set coming into your decoys. To me, there's no bigger thrill.

My son enjoys hunting. My grandson, now, who's eight years old, has been out here. This was, I think, his third opening weekend of duck hunting. So it's a tradition that-- one of my neatest birthday cards I ever got is he made a handmade card of two people in a duck blind. And he says, grandpa, that's you and me. So that's neat.

DAN GUNDERSON: About 6:20, it's time to leave the warmth of the kitchen table behind.

ANDY ANDERSON: Well, it looks dark out yet, but--

DON MELHAM: Oh, yeah.

ANDY ANDERSON: --it's getting close to shooting time. So we maybe should head out. Usually, the first shoot is the best right away, the first half hour.

DAN GUNDERSON: An inquisitive six-month-old yellow lab named Otter waits eagerly by the front door.

DON MELHAM: Otter, you get to come along. Come on, Otter. Come on, girl.

[DOOR OPENS]

DAN GUNDERSON: A few hundred feet from the cabin, a boardwalk a couple feet wide, leads into the rushes and cattails.

ANDY ANDERSON: You got your flashlight, Don?

DON MELHAM: Yeah.

ANDY ANDERSON: OK. Here's the boardwalk that starts. Just take it slow and watch your footing here because it's not a superhighway. There's a narrow spot.

DAN GUNDERSON: A short, precarious walk brings us to the duck blind, a small deck with a wooden bench about 10 feet long, mounted on pontoons. A wall of camouflage netting is stretched around the deck, about waist high. It hides the hunters and provides some protection against the wind and rain.

ANDY ANDERSON: First few shots in the morning, you probably gotta be ready because you don't see them very far out. And it's still tough to see, right, Don?

DON MELHAM: Yeah, that's for sure.

DAN GUNDERSON: Andy and Don settle in to wait as the first gray tinge of dawn begins to color the sky.

DON MELHAM: Say, Otter, it looks like somebody's been chewing on the blind. I wonder who that could be, huh? Who could that be? That wouldn't be you, would it? I bet it was. You won't get by with that with me. No, you--

ANDY ANDERSON: [INAUDIBLE]

[DISTANT GUNSHOT]

[DISTANT GUNSHOT]

Well, we just heard our first shots across the lake.

DAN GUNDERSON: Someone has found ducks. It's barely light enough to make out the decoys bobbing a few yards in front of the blind.

DON MELHAM: Yeah, we'll have a cup of coffee and see if that brings any ducks in, huh? You think it will, Otter, huh?

[POURING COFFEE]

It might. Yes. Oh yes. Lots of times, when you pour a cup of coffee, that brings something in because then you got your hands full and you gotta set the coffee down and get your gun. And it doesn't always work. But sometimes-- no.

[DOG WHIMPERS]

No, you don't think-- no, you stay here. You stay here, yeah. Yeah, I know, it's a little bit boring right now, but there may be some more ducks coming. Sometimes you get concerned about these puppies. You wonder if they realize they're a dog or if they think they're human. [CHUCKLES]

You can almost see when she retrieved her first duck yesterday how proud she was, you know? She knew she did a good thing and was in a little slough in the woods. And she kind of strutted along a little bit, didn't you? Sure. You haven't got it all figured out, but you're getting-- thinking about it, aren't you?

[DUCK CALL]

Neither one of us claim to be expert callers, but we do the feed chatter, which, on the divers, the ring bills, and blue bills seems to work pretty well. And--

ANDY ANDERSON: Heard one. Right over here, Don.

DON MELHAM: That one was almost good a hit with the end of the gun barrel.

ANDY ANDERSON: Right, right.

DON MELHAM: [CHUCKLES]

ANDY ANDERSON: That's what happens when you're not paying attention.

DON MELHAM: Right. Ain't that right, Otter? Yeah, you could have got that one almost.

DAN GUNDERSON: Conversation is sparse as the two men intently scan the horizon.

ANDY ANDERSON: I took early retirement now, so I'm retired and out of my company. And one of my goals is to hunt virtually every day this fall. And so many years, I could only hunt weekends. And a couple of years, when the best flight came through, I was away out of town on a business meeting, and so I missed it. And got a single going north.

DON MELHAM: Way too hard to see in that tree line.

ANDY ANDERSON: Ooh. There's one right there, Don.

[GUNSHOTS]

DON MELHAM: In my opinion, there was a lot more ducks when I was younger. And I grew up in a farm south of Fergus, about five miles, and that's kind of the pothole country. And like opening day of duck hunting, if we didn't fill out within an hour away, we thought it was a complete bust.

And lots of times, it was 15, 20 minutes. And now, well, last weekend here, we got 10 ducks for five guys in two days of hunting. But like I say, it's less important, too, the month you kill and so forth. It's seeing them and being outdoors that attracts us. So it's not that big a deal.

But I like to see birds. Whether we get shots or not, that's not too critical. But I love to see them. And like I say, we come down in the evening without guns and just watch them fly.

DAN GUNDERSON: About 9 o'clock, with two ducks in the bag, it's time to call it quits. But Andy Anderson expects to be back here tomorrow and every day for the rest of the duck-hunting season. Dan Gunderson, Minnesota Public Radio.

RACHEL REABE: Fergus Falls is duck country and home to the state's most powerful chapter of Ducks Unlimited. Many of the nation's waterfowl are hatched in the fertile wetlands that run down the Western border of Minnesota. I'm Rachel Reabe. And my guests today are Doug Wells, wildlife manager for the Fergus Falls Office of the Department of Natural Resources, and Tom Brimhall, chairman of the local Ducks Unlimited chapter. Welcome, gentlemen.

DOUG WELLS: Hello.

TOM BRIMHALL: Thank you.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone number is 1-800-537-5252 if you would like to call in with a question or a comment on this program on waterfowl. 1-800-537-5252. Doug, let's get a forecast from you. What does the duck harvest look like this year?

DOUG WELLS: Well, it should be a pretty good year. And we can at least start with the forecast for duck numbers. And that doesn't always necessarily translate into a good hunting season, but the surveys have shown that the numbers are out there this year, somewhat down a little bit from last year.

But areas are surveyed all across the prairie pothole region and in parts of Northern and Western Canada and Alaska. And the US Fish and Wildlife Service compiles all this information, tries to come up with a fall flight index, which is an estimate of what the numbers might be. And this year, they're calling for an estimate of about 84 million birds coming down through those production areas and moving south to their wintering areas.

A lot of those ducks are going to come through Minnesota, hopefully. And the hunting, a lot of it depends-- hunting success, a lot of it depends on weather conditions, weather patterns, how the ducks stack up, where they stage during the migration. But the numbers are certainly there. So the potential is there for a good duck season.

RACHEL REABE: So that's one of the reasons why this is big duck country, because the vegetation is here, the wetlands are here, the prairies are here. But also, a lot of them are hatching right here.

DOUG WELLS: That's true. We're in a migration area, and we're also part of an important production area, too. I mentioned the prairie pothole area. That's a key figure.

I think when we live in an area or grow up in an area, sometimes we don't realize the significance of it in a larger context. But prairie pothole area consists of parts of northwestern Iowa, western, southern Minnesota, eastern half of the Dakotas, a little bit of the corner of Montana in the northeastern side, and the prairie provinces of Canada as well. And that's the breadbasket for duck production in the continent.

It's not all that incredibly large an area. It's perhaps somewhere around 300,000 square miles. Estimates in the past have varied, though, that about perhaps 50% or more of the duck production on the continent comes from this prairie pothole area. So it's an extremely important area historically and today in terms of duck production.

RACHEL REABE: We're talking about waterfowl here in Fergus Falls. Our phone number, 1-800-537-5252. 1-800-537-5252. When we have years that are very dry and the wetlands become no longer wet, but dry, does that really have a major effect on either the migration pattern or on the breeding patterns here?

DOUG WELLS: Yes, it can have an effect on both. When we get those dry conditions, if the dry conditions are widespread, let's say, over the entire prairie pothole area, a lot of the ducks simply aren't going to breed. Some of them will move outside that area to perhaps where there's better water conditions. Some of the birds simply just won't breed. They'll just give up for that year.

Now, if it's a little more localized, let's say, Minnesota is dry, but the Dakotas are wet, although the opposite would probably be more likely, the ducks will shift from one area to another. And that certainly happens during migration too. The Dakotas were dry for several years. Now, they, over the last three to four years, have been extremely wet. And when you reflood those dry wetlands, they're extremely attractive to waterfowl.

Some of the reasons why our duck-hunting success perhaps hasn't been as good as some people had hoped for is that birds are shifting during migration there to those better water areas too as they're coming south from Canada and some of those other production areas. So they can work both ways.

RACHEL REABE: When they shift, is it a permanent shift?

DOUG WELLS: No, I would say--

RACHEL REABE: It's dependent on conditions?

DOUG WELLS: --it's more temporary. I mean, they're just taking advantage of the best habitat and water conditions where they find food. And they're just-- they're opportunists. They're going to take advantage of the situations as they find them.

RACHEL REABE: 1995 was a huge year for migration.

DOUG WELLS: Yeah, that's right. We actually had quite a late fall, and ducks stayed more in the northern part of the range until we got freeze-up conditions that kind of hit all at once. All of a sudden, the curtain just dropped, and we got a big cold front coming through, and we had a tremendous migration.

It was right the last day or two of October and the first couple of days of November. Anybody that was out hunting or out in the field at that point can remember it because they just saw just tremendous number of birds pouring down across the state. And it actually led to the condition that airport radars were shut down at three different places. It was in Omaha, Kansas City, and Des Moines, I believe it was, where they were temporarily shut down because of the sheer numbers of waterfowl that were in the skies, moving through in that particular point in time.

RACHEL REABE: So traffic backs up in the waterfowl region as well.

DOUG WELLS: It can. We hunters generally prefer to see that filter down through on a little more gradual basis so it provides good opportunities over the course of the season. But you can get weather conditions like that, where it just all comes with a bang like that.

RACHEL REABE: Do you remember '95, Tom? Was that just a banner year for your duck-hunting career?

TOM BRIMHALL: Actually, for me, last year was the best year. But as Doug said, if you don't happen to hit, if it comes through all at once and you don't happen to be available those two or three days a week to hunt, you miss out on the hunting. The waterfowl all come and go in a very short amount of time. And it may not be the best hunting, but it's nice to see that they're there, that there are that many waterfowl.

RACHEL REABE: We're going to go to our phone lines now. Dick from Osseo is on the line with us this afternoon. Hello, Dick. Go ahead with your question or comment.

DICK: I know that all the hunting groups, the deer hunters, the bow hunters, and everybody donates a huge amount of time and money each year to the DNR. And I was wondering if you could talk about how much Ducks Unlimited does in the way of donations for restoration of habitat and how those benefits affect everybody and not just hunters.

TOM BRIMHALL: OK. That's a very good question. I don't know if this is-- OK. There we go. Since 1937, at DU's inception, $1 billion has been raised and put back into habitat restoration locally or in the state of Minnesota. They started the first project in Minnesota, I believe, in 1985, and there has been about $14 million raised in the state of Minnesota that has gone into 270 projects in the state in that amount of time.

Locally, Otter Tail County, I believe, the figure is at about $365,000 of Ducks Unlimited money has gone into seven major projects. Two of those, one is the Stang Lake project, which is just east of Fergus Falls, and the other one is-- we're sitting in it. The Prairie Wetlands Center was a recipient of some Ducks Unlimited money. So in answer to your question, as far as the monies raised, I believe the figure, again, 85% of it, of all monies raised, goes right back into habitat restoration. A small amount is administrative.

DOUG WELLS: One of the other parts of that question was what sorts of other benefits come along with those projects. Now, these projects are designed specifically with waterfowl benefits in mind. But I think it's important to realize there's a tremendous number of other species that benefit from projects. Waterfowl may be the key species group that we're targeting on these projects, but there's a whole host of other grassland and wetland species, both game and non-game, that benefit from these projects. So it's--

TOM BRIMHALL: In fact, I believe DU's figures indicate that there are at least 600 non-game species. So they're not counting ducks, and deer, and pheasants. 600 species that are not hunted are benefited by DU projects.

RACHEL REABE: So the organization is much broader than its name might--

TOM BRIMHALL: Yes.

RACHEL REABE: --suggest?

TOM BRIMHALL: Absolutely.

RACHEL REABE: We have Pat on the phone with us this afternoon. Good afternoon, Pat. Go ahead with your question.

PAT: Hi, I'm Pat, and I'm a landowner in Crow Wing County. And my question is, being a landowner only owning one acre of land that the county has said that is a wetland, and now I cannot build on this land, what is a family to do about a situation like this when it's being stopped now?

TOM BRIMHALL: From Ducks Unlimited point of view, that's a question I can't answer. I guess that might have been answered easier on the last hour with Kevin and Tim. That's not something that I'm able to answer, I guess.

DOUG WELLS: Well, I don't know what the nature of this wetland is. There are some programs that are available across the state that try to reimburse landowners for those values of those wetlands, various different easement type programs. I don't know if the caller's had a chance to look into some of those.

A good place to stop would be the local DNR office or the Soil & Water Conservation district office at your county office there too and inquire to see whether the type of wetland that you have on your property qualifies for any of these easement type programs, where you might be able to gain some financial reimbursement from it. It doesn't solve the problem of whether you can build on it or not, but it perhaps will help the situation a little bit.

PAT: Well, I have done that. And on one acre, they won't look at it as a situation. But having five children-- I mean, I think what-- the ducks is important, but what about a family? A family is very important.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone number today is 1-800-537-5252 if you would like to call in and join our conversation. I'm Rachel Reabe. My guests are Doug Wells, wildlife manager for the Fergus Falls office of the Department of Natural resources, and Tom Brimhall of the local Ducks Unlimited chapter.

It's interesting to note that Minnesota is considered a fundraising powerhouse in Ducks Unlimited, raising $3 and 1/2 million last year alone. And in Minnesota, Fergus Falls, your Ducks Unlimited chapter is really at the top of the heap. Why so important here in Fergus Falls?

TOM BRIMHALL: Well, I think part of it, Rachel, is-- first off, I would like to dispel-- maybe there's some myth that Ducks Unlimited committee members and Ducks Unlimited is about-- we do it because we want to be able to shoot ducks. That's probably the least of it. Certainly, DU is not about hunting. It's about conservation. It's about habitat restoration and preservation.

I think the reason we do so well in Fergus Falls is, number one, we have a large committee. Some towns work with 8 or 10 people. We have a 40-plus-person committee. That's just the men's committee. The ladies also have a 20-person committee.

We do it-- I think we do so well because we like what we're doing. The 40 of us like each other. We do things-- a lot of us do things out of context with Ducks Unlimited entirely. We socialize with each on other bases. So we're successful because we believe in what we're doing, and we actually-- we really like what we're doing. And I think that's the reason for our success.

And I can't emphasize enough that the reason also we are so successful is that the local businesses have absolutely bent over backwards to help us in our fundraising goals. We get literally thousands of dollars worth of donations from local businesses. And without their support, we couldn't raise any money.

RACHEL REABE: And duck hunting is big business in Minnesota and very big business in the Fergus Falls area, is it not, Doug?

DOUG WELLS: Well, that's right. And across the state too. You mentioned earlier at the outset that we have about 130,000 duck hunters in the state, and that is the highest number of any state in the nation. So there's a tremendous amount of interest across the state.

And those state hunters, duck hunters, pay for that privilege to hunt waterfowl and to increase habitat projects as well through various stamps. There's a state duck stamp that costs $5. So every one of those duck hunters, as well as some art collectors as well, are buying those stamps. And there's also the federal duck stamp, which costs $15. And every one of those hunters, plus collectors and others, are buying at least one of those stamps. Some people buy more than one, one for their license, one to just have in their own collection. So that's generating a lot of revenue.

And the interest is there. It's part of the tradition of this area. I think it dates back to the early settlers that moved here, that took advantage of the opportunities that were here from the tremendous number of waterfowl that they found when they moved here.

RACHEL REABE: Ducks Unlimited is a very powerful organization. We're talking about 3/4 of a million members nationally. Is there some concern that Ducks Unlimited has become so powerful and obviously so successful in raising money that it almost has become a policymaker? Do you ever get the sense that Ducks Unlimited is telling the Department of Natural Resources how things are going to go?

DOUG WELLS: No, I guess, I don't have that feeling at all. I think they've-- my impression has been that they've stayed very focused on what their mission is. I mean, they're out there to try to restore habitat, provide more grasslands and more wetlands to benefit a whole variety of species, including waterfowl. And it's also my impression that they try to stay out of those political battles and policy fights and everything, and they just focused in on what they think they can do best.

RACHEL REABE: Do you agree with that, Tom?

TOM BRIMHALL: I would agree with that. DU is not in the business to make policy. Basically, DU is in the business to raise money to preserve wetlands. And they leave the policy up to the policymakers.

RACHEL REABE: And people are passionate about it in Ducks Unlimited. I know of people who have retired and spend their full time now on a volunteer basis for Ducks Unlimited, traveling around, raising money. There are huge donors, banquets full of $10,000, $15,000 contributors. What is it that really gets the passion going? I'm sure a lot of nonprofit organizations would love to know the secret.

TOM BRIMHALL: Well, I'm not so sure I can answer that. In fact, we have a national sponsor chairman that lives in Fergus Falls and is on our committee and has done exactly that. He is retired and spends his whole time working for Ducks Unlimited.

A lot of it, of course, is a love for the outdoors and an appreciation of the natural order of things. A lot of it, too, is in the DU functions I've been to. I've been a member for about 10 years. And the different conventions I've gone to, I have never yet met a person associated with DU that I didn't like.

And that sounds very trite, but DU people are good people to be around. And maybe that's part of the passion, is everybody is committed enough to this that maybe our focus is such that everybody has a common ground and everybody is genuinely likable people, and that might have a lot to do with it.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone number is 1-800-537-5252. We go now to Scott on the phone lines. Good afternoon, Scott.

SCOTT: Hello. Thank you for taking my call.

RACHEL REABE: Go ahead with your question.

SCOTT: My question is, there is a proposed landfill going in Dakota County, about seven miles south of Hastings in the watershed of the river. And I was wondering if Ducks Unlimited had an opportunity to be involved in the planning process for that and was aware of that.

TOM BRIMHALL: Coming from the Fergus Falls DU committee, again, that's not-- it's beyond our scope. I guess I would have no idea what Ducks Unlimited involvement is down in that area.

RACHEL REABE: And it's a very localized organization, Tom, in that if he's interested in something going on in Dakota County, should he contact that local chapter?

TOM BRIMHALL: I'm sure there is a local chapter in Dakota County he should contact, yes.

RACHEL REABE: Scott, what are your concerns?

SCOTT: Well, my concerns are this is what has formerly been a family farm and then was converted to excavating. And now they are digging large holes and dumping garbage along the banks of the river. And I'm concerned about the effects that will have on wildlife in general and also waterfowl.

RACHEL REABE: Might the DNR be a place that he would want to call as well?

DOUG WELLS: Well, it sounds like the sort of project that would normally undergo some level of environmental review. And I think the DNR office with the area wildlife manager there might be a good place just to check into. They might be able at least point you in the right direction or see what sort of review has already taken place.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you, sir, for your question and comment today. We're going to continue now going to our phone lines. Our number is 1-800-537-5252 if you'd like to join this conversation. Tom in Champlin, good afternoon.

TOM: Yeah, hi. Say, I've got a simple question, I think. It has to do with what you do with the money when you mention that it goes towards habitat. What does that mean exactly? Do you buy property, or do you subsidize some efforts to redevelop it, or what does that mean?

DOUG WELLS: Well, the money that comes in from the state duck stamp program goes almost entirely towards habitat projects. So an example of a habitat project might be rebuilding the dikes up in the Roseau wildlife management area that create impoundments behind those ducks that are attractive to waterfowl.

It might go towards purchasing grass seed to establish nesting cover on wildlife areas anywhere across Western and Southern Minnesota. It might go towards creating a new water control structure on a state wildlife management area or putting in a water control structure on a lake that's been designated for wildlife management so we can draw the water levels down, re-establish some emergent vegetation, create a more favorable environment for a variety of wetland wildlife species.

Now, the money from the federal duck stamp is used very heavily towards acquisition of small wetland areas, the waterfowl production areas across the state, and on some of the refuges across the state. So in that case, it can go towards acquisition.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for your question this afternoon. We go now to Saint Paul, where Jack is holding on the line. Good afternoon, Jack.

JACK: Yes, good afternoon. Thanks. I guess I want to speak to passions of my own here. The recorded-- the taped interview at the beginning of the program had the fellow talking about the most thrilling thing was to see the ducks flying down and gliding down, and so on, and so on. And I guess I wonder sometimes what the thrill is to seeing that same beautiful creature explode in blood and feathers.

And I guess you can tell where I'm coming from on this. Maybe it's because I was born and raised in New York City or there's just something wrong with me. But I just never been able to understand that. And I'd just be interested in your comments.

DOUG WELLS: Well, it's kind of a-- it gets to a philosophical question perhaps, and it's one I would have difficulty covering, I think, in the time we've got allotted to us here. And it's not always easy to explain, I guess, as a hunter, what motivates people to do these things.

And I think I'll just answer the question perhaps in a different manner and perhaps trying to explain why, just explain that hunting itself is a carefully regulated process through a lot of regulations, and we take great care in the field of wildlife management to try to ensure that we're not damaging populations.

If you look at the population as similar to a bank account, we want to make sure that through harvest, we're taking an interest and not cutting into principal. So that's the ultimate thing, I think, here, is make sure we're not damaging populations, and we're just taking surplus animals. Beyond that, it's difficult to get into that sort of discussion here.

RACHEL REABE: Well, Tom, your comment on that, would this be a very unusual position if a person lived in Fergus Falls?

TOM BRIMHALL: Well, not necessarily. And certainly, I would not deny anybody's right to disagree with hunting. I guess my comment to this gentleman would be that shooting the duck itself is certainly not the focus. I've hunted literally hundreds of times where I've gotten absolutely nothing, and it hasn't stopped me one second from going out again.

So shooting the duck itself is-- you can call it a bonus. You can call it whatever you want. That's not what drives me. I like being out there, and I like seeing the ducks, too. So again, I would mirror Doug's answer that we could spend hours on a philosophical discussion about whether hunting is right or wrong. But as long as I have a legal right to do it, I will continue to do it.

RACHEL REABE: And certainly, duck hunters aren't doing it for the food if they're spending on the average of $300 a season for duck hunting. That would make for some very expensive duck dinners.

TOM BRIMHALL: You couldn't afford to do it for food. It would be absolutely prohibitive. So that, obviously, is not the driving force.

DOUG WELLS: And at the same point, though, that there's something-- some special feeling about providing your own food. I mean, the other extreme is buying everything in a plastic bag at the supermarket. And what connection do you have with the land with that sort of approach? And when you actually harvest some of your own produce, harvest some of your own meat, whether it's from your garden, or whether it's in a duck blind, that-- it gets into a pretty complex--

RACHEL REABE: Emotional need.

DOUG WELLS: --set of, yeah, emotions.

RACHEL REABE: We have John on the phone from Elk River. Good afternoon, John.

JOHN: Yes. During the past 10 years or so, we've seen Canadian geese go from almost nothing to the point where they're overrunning the place, and particularly in areas where hunting is not allowed. And I was just wondering why we have so many Canadian geese and whether this same thing isn't going to happen with other species that we don't allow hunting on, like the wolves, for example. We're well above the level that they had intended to have for wolves now.

RACHEL REABE: Doug, why don't you address yourself to the question of Canada geese?

DOUG WELLS: Yeah, I'll try to do it in a short time frame. I could spend a lot of time on that, but the geese that breed in Minnesota are part of a population. There are different populations of Canada geese.

But breed in Minnesota are largely the Giant Canada goose, which, around the turn of the century, was largely extirpated from the state. Populations were rediscovered. There was a lot of work put into trying to re-establish populations of geese, and it's a tremendous success story. And there's a lot of work from various individuals and groups and agencies that went into it. It's a tremendous success story, and to the point of creating some problems with large numbers of geese that become nuisance in some situations in people's lawns, and backyards, and docks, and also causing damage in crop fields as well.

One of the reasons they continue to increase is we're also trying to manage for the populations of geese that migrate through the state, in particular what's called the eastern prairie population breeds up in the Hudson Bay area. Those birds are below goal populations. It's the main migrant through Minnesota.

So in a year like this, we're forced by agreements within the flyways and with Canada to restrict our harvest on these migrant geese. And so--

RACHEL REABE: So Minnesota doesn't operate by itself? You can't just say--

DOUG WELLS: No. We've got lots--

RACHEL REABE: --wow, there are a lot of geese. Let's go.

DOUG WELLS: That's right. Yeah, we've got agreements with other states and agencies. So it's a complicated deal, but it's a very real situation. We have a lot of geese.

RACHEL REABE: Sam in Minneapolis, you are on the phone with us today. Go ahead with your question.

SAM: Yeah. Yes. Thanks for taking my call. Good afternoon. I just wanted to make a couple of quick comments, and in particular about the fellow who called about blasting the bird out of the sky.

I speak with some people, and specifically my wife, who has a hard time seeing any blood drawn from an animal and yet she'll eat beef out of the supermarket. And what hunting does for me is provide me with the connection. And it doesn't desensitize or insulate me from exactly how I interact with my environment and the impact I have on it.

So I get a little frustrated with people who will go out and buy packaged meat, but yet say that it's wrong to kill an animal when they, through their dollars, are supporting that type of activity. And also, I wanted to say that I hope people vote yes for the referendum that's coming up in the state of Minnesota for hunting and fishing. And that was all.

RACHEL REABE: Sam, why do you like to duck hunt?

SAM: I'll give you an example. I was out for opener and saw birds flying high and didn't shoot a one. But I spent two hours trudging through the woods and got caught in a bog and had my dog out. And I just had a great time watching my dog running around, chasing snakes and frogs, and being out so early in the weather. It's the only time I actually get outside.

RACHEL REABE: Thanks for your comment. Tom, I want to ask you the same question. When we talked on the phone, you told me you've been hunting for 31 years, duck hunting, and you were hooked that first year. Now, we heard Andy Anderson a little bit earlier talk about, it's cold. It's dark. It's wet, snow, rain, sleet. What is it about duck hunting that gets people?

TOM BRIMHALL: I think a lot of it is your surroundings. I particularly don't like hunting in the rain. In fact, I won't do it. But all the mornings-- I don't see the sun come up very often. I do during duck season. I'm not an early riser, but I will get up.

And there really is nothing more beautiful than being in a marsh pre-dawn and watching the sky change from dark blue to gray, to the red when the sun comes up, and hearing the marsh come alive. It's pretty quiet before dark, and the birds start singing. And you've got various waterfowl that start making noise.

And I've hunted in 65-degree weather. That was short-sleeve weather. And I've hunted in driving snow. And again, without firing a shot, I've just enjoyed every minute of it because I don't get a chance to do-- well, I get a chance, but I choose not to sit out in the pre-dawn hours in, say, February or July.

I love being outside. I love the water. I like being on the water. I like being under the water. I scuba dive and fish, too. So for me, it's being in that environment, whether I'm shooting or not. I have gone out and just watched ducks fly in a blizzard without a gun at my side. So it thrills me just to be out there.

RACHEL REABE: Last year, we did a show on deer hunting. And some of the hunters that we had on talked about deer hunting as more of a ritual, as a social, as a cultural event, that they go with the same group, they go to the same place, they have the same hot dish the night before deer hunting opens. Is that the way you duck hunt? Is there kind of a ritual to it as well?

TOM BRIMHALL: Well, not-- to some degree. But for me-- well, I guess you could say it is some ritual, but--

RACHEL REABE: Do you always go the same place, same people?

TOM BRIMHALL: Well, pretty much, yes. I have a friend in Northern Minnesota that I've hunted with on and off for well, actually, every year for 25 years. So I guess you could--

RACHEL REABE: It's a ritual, Tom.

TOM BRIMHALL: --that ritual, yes. I guess it is.

RACHEL REABE: We're going to go back to our phone lines. Goodman from Hopkins is on the line with us. Good afternoon.

GOODMAN: Good afternoon. And I've enjoyed this program very much. And I'm one of the senior citizen hunters that opened the season. I was able to make one shot at a goose and missed, and a couple of shots at ducks, but I enjoyed the hunt very much.

And the one point I wanted to make was that we've mentioned about the Fish and Wildlife Service and DU, about the things they've done. But in my case, on my farm in Lac qui Parle County, it was the DNR, Minnesota DNR, that furnished 3/4 of the price of two dikes in order to create my duck marsh, where some teenagers shot four geese opening day, or opening weekend, I should say, and where I enjoyed the hunt very much.

And in addition, the DNR also, in Salt Lake in Western Minnesota, acquired the area, and there's a fine goose and duck hunting area at Salt Lake. So in addition to the good work of the Fish and Wildlife service, I think the DNR should be mentioned also.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for your call today.

DOUG WELLS: Well, we appreciate the call. There's a lot of groups that are involved in this type of work and individuals too, local conservation clubs. We've mentioned a few of them here that-- the list would be very lengthy. So there's a lot of people that are involved in it and a lot of people that do it all on their own, too.

RACHEL REABE: Doug, for those of us that are not duck hunters, a lot of different kinds of ducks and sort of different limits for each different species. Can you tell us-- they're flying overhead-- that's a mallard, that's a pintail, or whatever?

DOUG WELLS: Well, people that have put the effort into it can tell that and with years of experience.

RACHEL REABE: And you have to be able to tell if you've got a limit on some of the numbers.

DOUG WELLS: Well, you at least have to be able to identify those species that have restrictions on them. And there are restrictions. We have a six-bird daily bag limit. But as an example, you can only take four mallards, of which only two can be hens. And there are other restrictions-- two wood ducks, and that kind of thing.

There's about 17, 18 species of ducks that are common to the area and probably 3 species of geese. Canada Goose is the big one, of course. And so you do need to be able to identify at least which group of ducks it's in so you know whether there's individual restrictions on it or whatnot. But it can be done, and it's not really all that difficult. There's certain patterns that you look for in body shapes and whatnot.

RACHEL REABE: What's the most desirable duck?

DOUG WELLS: Well, that probably varies somewhat from one hunter to another. Probably, the most popular one in terms of sheer numbers is the--

RACHEL REABE: What's the walleye of the duck world?

DOUG WELLS: --mallard. Well, let's see. Walleyes are kind of bland. That's why everybody likes them. So mallards are very good-tasting. And people that are into diver hunting, hunting diving ducks, would probably tell you that canvasbacks is the king of the duck world, certainly in the diving duck world. And probably other people have their own preferences depending on how they like to do it.

RACHEL REABE: Tom, let's hear your personal opinion on that.

TOM BRIMHALL: I guess I would have to agree with Doug on the canvasback part. And I tend to hunt diving ducks more than I do puddle ducks. I guess as far as I'm concerned, mallard-pintail is kind of a big deal for me because I've only seen two or three of them in my life. This is kind of the eastern end of their range. So it's fun for me just to see a pintail. But as far as the diving ducks, I guess canvasback would be king in my book.

RACHEL REABE: We have a caller from Lakeville on the line with us. Good afternoon. Go ahead with your question or comment.

SPEAKER 1: Well, I have some comments. I'm on the hunting commission at Lakeville, and we live on Lake Marion, and we've lived here about 28 years. And I used to do a lot of canoeing, and we used to see 200 to 300 waterfowl, and we don't anymore. It's really down, and that's a concern. And I was born up by Middle River, and I wonder about the Agassiz wildlife region and how important that is. Up there, I guess, Middle River is the goose capital. And can you comment about that, about Agassiz?

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for your question.

DOUG WELLS: Yeah, the area around Agassiz, and I would include Thief Lake wildlife management area. And that is an important migrational stopover area and production area too. So that still has high importance around the state.

Now, the lake that you mentioned that you live on that no longer attracts waterfowl apparently, it could be due to a variety of conditions, including changes in the watershed, the resultant changes in the lake itself in terms of the clarity of the water and what type of plants it supports. So there's a whole host of factors that could be coming into play there.

RACHEL REABE: We go now to Doran, where Adam is waiting on the line. Good afternoon, Adam.

ADAM: Thanks for taking my call. First, I'd like to applaud all the conservation efforts, and the feelings of being outdoors is what really matters, and talk very briefly about my past. I was born into hunting, and I was born into fishing. I was born into all that. And through time, I came to realize that it's so wrong. And I don't understand why we can't appreciate nature without killing its children.

And I'd like to make a point that the Nazi Holocaust was a very carefully regulated activity. And who are we to define surplus animals? And I don't think we need hours to debate the moral issue. I think it's pretty clear that it's no different than killing our own children.

And I'm sorry for being harsh, but I just-- I'm really confused. And in fact, I'm trembling right now that we can talk so blatantly about killing. And I don't understand what we're teaching each other here. And I'm really scared, honestly, about all this. But I do understand that we have to conserve our nature. But why are we killing it?

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for your comment, Adam. Would either of you like to respond to that anything more than you've said already?

TOM BRIMHALL: I don't. Again, he has his right to his opinion. And I respect that right, but I don't happen to feel that way, and I guess I have that right. And I guess I'll leave it at that.

DOUG WELLS: There isn't that large-- I mean, there's a 10%, 15% of the population, I think, that would be considered hunters, about the same. that would be considered anti-hunters, some of whom we've heard from.

RACHEL REABE: And everybody else in the middle.

DOUG WELLS: A lot of the population would be characterized as non-hunters. And I think those are the ones that are going to make the decisions on the future of hunting and decide whether it's justifiable from a biological and a social standpoint.

RACHEL REABE: Doug, let me ask you a quick question about how dangerous duck hunting is. We read the report of a hunter being shot in the face by a member of his hunting party down in the Willmar area on Saturday. Is that quite unusual? Is it a given that there are going to be a number of accidents or fatalities among duck hunters during the next two months, or do you go seasons without a single?

DOUG WELLS: I don't really know what the exact record is on the safety record. I hadn't heard about this particular accident. I think one of the biggest potential dangers during the duck hunting season is people overloading their boats perhaps, going out on small marshes, and encountering rough weather, and not having life-- personal flotation devices, and getting caught in those types of situations. That's more typically the sort of situation that we hear about.

RACHEL REABE: And we've seen that change, haven't we, as personal flotation devices, they've been built into jackets and things that hunters will wear? There has really been a decrease over the last number of years.

DOUG WELLS: There's certainly been an emphasis on the whole-- emphasis on safety and trying to promote that. And again, I don't know what the exact records are.

RACHEL REABE: We're going to Wabasha now, where Bruce is on the phone. Good afternoon, Bruce.

BRUCE: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I was raised in a hunting family and got my first trip when I was four. And I no longer hunt, but I must say this. My fondest memories, growing up, were of duck hunting.

And I would say that it was the one common thread, the one cement that drew my family together. And the cultural or social part of the whole ritual, if you want to call it that, is something that will stay with me forever.

And I think hunting is a great way for people to get together to share the experiences of being out together, and especially fathers and sons. I think what it can do-- and fathers and daughters for that matter, that it can really be an important and really a spiritual part of growing up for kids. And I think it's great.

RACHEL REABE: Bruce, thank you for your comments this afternoon. All Minnesota duck hunters must purchase a $5 state duck stamp. But it's much more than a ticket to hunt. Intense competition over which painting will grace the stamp has elevated the duck stamp to an art form. This year's winner is a wildlife artist from the Fergus Falls area, John House of Melby. And he joins us now at the Prairie Wetlands Learning Center in Fergus Falls. Welcome, John, and congratulations.

JOHN HOUSE: And thank you very much.

RACHEL REABE: How big a deal is this? You've been a wildlife artist for 20 years. You've finished twice in the top five for the duck stamp contest. You got the call in late August. You have one.

JOHN HOUSE: Yeah. Well, how big a deal is it? Personally, it's huge. It's a personal thing, artist to artist. The Minnesota state duck stamp is kind of the crown jewel of state art competition. And so when you win, it validates you.

RACHEL REABE: Professionally?

JOHN HOUSE: Yeah, professionally as well, and even commercially. Yeah, in all honesty, there's a real commercial spin-off from this, but--

RACHEL REABE: So is it like horseshoes that placing in the top five, too, that was nice, but that--

JOHN HOUSE: No, no, it's a winner-take-all. And so it's very-- the competition is extremely keen. The finest wildlife artists in Minnesota throw their hat in the ring. And so, yes, when you win, it's-- you breathe a big sigh of relief, and you say, by golly, we finally did it. Yeah.

RACHEL REABE: Let's talk about the piece of art that you submitted in this year's competition. And again, hunters don't look for that this year. That will be your duck stamp for next year, in 1999. And we have it on all the front pages of all these newspapers here. Tell us a little bit about your painting.

JOHN HOUSE: Well, I entered-- I won this year with green-winged teal. Two years ago, I entered a pair of green-winged teal. And in looking back at the one-- and it placed fifth two years ago. And when I got it back, I looked at it and I saw this wrong, this wrong, and this wrong.

And as with anything in life, you have to grow in your chosen profession. And so for probably a year and a half after losing two years ago, I would make changes, adjustments, improvements, et cetera, et cetera. I took two years of schooling down in the Twin Cities, three hours away. I kept modifying. Once every month or so, I'd pull the new design out, correct it, adjust it, fix it.

RACHEL REABE: Are we talking obsession here, John?

JOHN HOUSE: Well, ma'am, that's a fair statement, yes. But I guess how are you going to excel at something if you don't go all the way? Yeah.

RACHEL REABE: Why was it so important for you to win this competition?

JOHN HOUSE: Because it's the toughest. It's like the Olympics. You look at these guys that train for four years. They're making no money. They're suffering hardship, personal sacrifice, great discomfort. Why? It's a personal thing.

RACHEL REABE: But I didn't think artists were competitive. Is this an unusual pairing?

JOHN HOUSE: No, no, no, no. I think all of us are somewhat competitive in everything we do in that there is great satisfaction in being the best at something. No matter who you are, there's tremendous, I guess, personal value when you set out to do something that maybe you're not very good at. And at the end of the day, or the end of the month, or the end of the year, or the end of 10 years, you've accomplished something that you set out to do that you couldn't do. Aren't we all in that category?

RACHEL REABE: Let's talk about the medium that you used. Are you quite restricted in size of painting, what you can use--

JOHN HOUSE: Yeah.

RACHEL REABE: --what the subject matter? Just give us kind of basically.

JOHN HOUSE: Yes, ma'am, it's very specific, very rigid, very strict rules. All the artists have to enter the same size painting, 6 and 1/2 inches by 9 inches, which is a very small piece of work. Very small, yes. And you put a white mat around the edge. You can't put any kind of pretty framing on or anything to sway the judges.

RACHEL REABE: So that picture of your painting in that lovely frame, that came after you won?

JOHN HOUSE: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. [CHUCKLES] No, you'd be out on your ear if you submitted something in a pretty frame. You're not--

RACHEL REABE: Does it have to be oil? Can it be acrylic--

JOHN HOUSE: No, no.

RACHEL REABE: --watercolor?

JOHN HOUSE: Oh yes, absolutely. It could be oil, watercolor, acrylic, gouache, pen and ink, pencil. You're not limited as to the medium, but it has to be your original work. You can't copy anybody else. You have to be-- it has to be your original design. And you're not allowed to sign your name on the front of it when you submit it because it has to be anonymous so that, again, the judges are not swayed by any known artist.

RACHEL REABE: Do you sign it after the fact?

JOHN HOUSE: Oh most definitely.

RACHEL REABE: Very large letters?

JOHN HOUSE: Oh yes, yes, yes.

RACHEL REABE: John House.

JOHN HOUSE: Yeah, big crayon. Yeah. Uh-huh.

RACHEL REABE: John, tell us what this picture looks like. Describe this for our listeners. Obviously, there has to be a duck in the picture.

JOHN HOUSE: Yes, that's what they're looking for.

RACHEL REABE: Can it be one, two, five?

JOHN HOUSE: Sure. As an artist, you have to make a judgment as to what they're looking for. It's a guess, but you can look at the past string of winners and get a pretty good idea as to what they're looking for.

RACHEL REABE: In terms of type of duck, has this type won in recent years?

JOHN HOUSE: No. The DNR wants a different species each year. They have gone through the list of species that they call Minnesota ducks. I think this might have been the 22nd or the 23rd winner.

To be honest with you, I think there's only maybe five or six species left that are technically Minnesota species that migrate through Minnesota in the spring or back south in the fall. And I happened to pick green-winged teal because the ones that have won, the ones that won in the beginning-- I heard the guys talking about hunting earlier. They talked about canvasbacks and mallards. Well, these are very popular species. They win early in the game, wood ducks, et cetera.

The only one-- the only species that are left are kind of this, quote unquote, I hate to say it this way, but the "scraps." It's the oddballs. It's the goofy ducks, the scoters, and the mergansers, and the old squaws that are really Lake Superior species.

But the only one of the species left that I could pick from that I thought was common and popular was the green-winged teal. To be honest with you, it's a miracle it was still left. And I said, kiddo, why don't you enter something that if you win with it, people will like it? And it's a popular species. You might sell some prints.

RACHEL REABE: Let's talk about selling the prints. It's important to note at this point, you do not get a large check from the Department of Natural Resources for every duck stamp sold in 1999. You will receive actually nothing from them.

JOHN HOUSE: Yes, that's correct.

RACHEL REABE: You make your money how?

JOHN HOUSE: Well, when you win, you get a huge emotional boost, but there's no bag of money. And then when the DNR sells the $5 stamps to hunters starting next spring-- and by the way, non-hunters collect the stamps as well because the money goes to worthy causes, as you were discussing earlier. But what will happen is, when the stamps are ready through the state, we will publish the art prints.

RACHEL REABE: And then people have the option to buy them. Now, you wouldn't tell me how much money you're going to make, but you did say a year's salary. So that will hold us. John House, congratulations again. And thanks for being with us. We'd also like to thank Doug Wells of the Department of Natural Resources, Tom Brimhall of Fergus's Ducks Unlimited chapter.

This special Mainstreet Radio broadcast is a production of Minnesota Public Radio. Our engineers are Cliff Bentley and Rick Hebzynski on location and Randy Johnson in Saint Paul. Our producer is Sara Meyer, executive producer, Mel Sommer, field producer, Dan Gunderson. We'd like to thank Tim Bodine and the staff at Prairie Wetlands Learning Center in Fergus Falls for allowing us to broadcast from their facility.

We invite you to visit the Mainstreet website. Go to www.mpr.org. You'll be able to hear this program as well as other Mainstreet reports. The address, again, www.mpr.org, and click on Mainstreet.

MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant-making, leadership training, and convening. Minnesota Public Radio's Mainstreet team is Leif Enger, Dan Gunderson, Mark Steil, and myself, Rachel Reabe.

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SPEAKER 2: Members of the Minnesota Public Radio programming staff want to hear from you. Come to our public comment meeting, Thursday, October 8, at 7:00 at the Nokomis Community Center, 24th in East Minnehaha Parkway in South Minneapolis.