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RACHEL REABE: MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant making, leadership training, and convening. We invite you to visit the Mainstreet website. Go to www.mpr.org, where you can hear today's program at your convenience, as well as other Mainstreet reports. The address again, www.mprg.org.

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Good afternoon, and welcome to this special Mainstreet Radio show. We're broadcasting live from the grounds of Weyfest, the country music festival held every August outside Detroit Lakes. I'm Rachel Reabe. The crowd here, which will swell to 40,000 people before the weekend is over, comes north for the camping and concert experience.

But Detroit Lakes has long been a tourist destination. People travel north for the peace and quiet of the water and woods. Fishermen, canoeists, and water skiers have coexisted on these lakes for decades, but the latest arrival in the water has caused a bit of a stir.

Personal watercraft represent just 3% of Minnesota boats, but lately they seem to attract most of the attention. My guests this afternoon are Jim Medema, president of the Jetsporters Association of Minnesota; Conservation Officer Dennis Lang with the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources; and Representative Kris Hasskamp, who worked in the legislature last year to restrict the use of personal watercraft. Welcome to all of you.

Our phone lines are open for your calls this afternoon, 1-800-537-5252. We'd be interested in hearing from our listeners what their experience has been with personal watercraft. Have we been too tough on them or not tough enough? Call us at 1-800-537-5252.

Jim Medema, let's start this show by you telling us what's the best thing about personal watercraft. Why are you so crazy about them?

JIM MEDEMA: They're about the funnest thing on the water. It's one of those things wherein-- in the same way that a lot of people like to ride motorcycles, snowmobiles, bicycles, rather than sitting in a car with the windows up and the air conditioner running, it's one of those things that you can get out and be in the environment and enjoy it while you're getting wet. It's very different from riding in a boat as far as experience is concerned, because you are out in the water and splashing around and having fun.

RACHEL REABE: And were you an early convert to personal watercraft? Were they around for a while before you jumped in?

JIM MEDEMA: They were. Actually, I'm an owner for just two and a half, three years. And before that, I think I'd gone out two times at some company parties. And at some point, I decided it's time for me and got hooked and haven't stopped.

RACHEL REABE: Representative Hasskamp, why do you think we need special rules and regulations for personal watercraft?

KRIS HASSKAMP: I think it's because of the unique type of machine it is. It's actually, like Jim said, a snowmobile on water. They advertise, promote the versatility of maneuverability, that it can go anywhere, turn on a dime. It can jump waves. So it's got a lot of the things that a lot of people that like thrills. So it's like a thrill machine.

The problem is that when it is so maneuverable, when it does go so fast, and if you don't have people that know what they're doing on them, they don't care what they do to other people or wildlife or the environment, then there's a clash there. And what we're trying to do is say, if you're going to be in any type of public lake, that there are things that we have to coexist. And everybody should have a chance to use the water and not be literally scared off of it by machines that go so fast and intimidate a lot of the other boat lake users.

RACHEL REABE: You spent a lot of time in the last session of the legislature trying to put together something that would put some restrictions and some rules on personal watercraft. Tell us how successful you were.

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well, I think we were very successful in really, first of all, doing the best thing we can do is raise the awareness, the public awareness that there is a clash there going on and that we need to live together and coexist on the lakes and be aware that there are other people who don't maybe appreciate some activities of certain boaters.

So we were very successful in a lot of public awareness. People know now-- and I think jet sporters in general are more concerned that there is a possibility of stricter regulations coming down the line if they don't start to behave the laws more and be more courteous and responsible. And so we did that.

But I also think we gave a little bit of time for the non, we'll say, thrill type of lake users, those who like to canoe and those like to fish and sail and row boat so that they have time in the morning and the evening to be able to use it without that unique kind of a buzz droning thing that goes up and down all the time.

So I think we're giving them a little piece. And we're getting more distance away from other boats and swimmers and docks and shoreline. And I think that's a real benefit. Plus, we're requiring special education for our young people, which is really important.

RACHEL REABE: Jet sporters also claimed victory after the last legislative session. Jim, what were the things that you felt you really made some points on?

JIM MEDEMA: Victory is a strong word. The things that I think we were successful in doing were in keeping the extreme provisions that were introduced out of the bill. And given the extent to which they were extreme, we had to work very hard because of the hype that surrounded it and how it was built up and went on and on.

So we were successful in that we kept out most egregious provisions. However, we feel we were very, very unsuccessful in that we still don't have a mandatory education program. And we still don't appear to have the full support of the state in educating everybody that's going to be riding these machines.

And until that's done, we're quite positive that we're going to be back year after year after year after year until that is in place. In the same way that you don't let somebody get on a motorcycle that goes 60 miles an hour, 50 miles an hour, 30 miles an hour without any training, without any education, we have to be working to educate the people who do ride personal watercraft so that when they do get on there, when they do have their relatives come over, their friends, their co-workers, that we take care of that.

We address that problem by educating rather than overstressing and already under people DNR and saying, well, you need to keep enforcing, we need to increase its enforcement, we need thousands of dollars to support all this when they haven't got nearly enough folks to do the work that they already are required to do.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone number, 1-800-537-5252. We would like you to call today and tell us about your experience with personal watercraft. Dennis, let's let you speak for the Department of Natural Resources. How big of a problem would you say personal watercraft are?

DENNIS LANG: Well, they've become the leading complaint that we have from people on the water. So there's people that are passionate for them. There's people that are passionate against them. And they use us. I think, for sounding.

And clearly, there are problems. Like you said already, they're a low percentage of the registered boats, yet there are a high percentage of the accidents. So a lot of careless operation, a lot of accidents involving.

It's pretty much-- conservation officers are in the field. We're pretty much neutral. Our personal feelings don't enter into too much. It's just another thing that we do on the water when we're working on the water.

RACHEL REABE: Now, the Jetsporters Association, you told me, Jim, that's not even a year old yet.

JIM MEDEMA: Correct We actually formed from two local writers clubs, one in the Twin City area, one in the Brainerd area. And we're officially formed in November, put together a board of directors. So it's a very new organization in and of itself. But the work the people that have been involved with personal watercraft behind the scenes and up on the front lines have been involved in it for a number of years already.

RACHEL REABE: Well, and you hit the ground running, because then the legislative session came. And you saw perhaps the future of personal watercraft or, at least the future as you knew it, perhaps threatened.

JIM MEDEMA: Oh, completely Completely. The threats that were out there were bizarre in how much it frightened everybody. And I think one of the biggest things that I need to credit Representative Hasskamp for is raising the awareness. Tim Smalley from the DNR said that so far this year, both accidents and complaints are down by more than 50% across the state.

And we cannot credit that to a new education program in place. We cannot credit that to increased enforcement out on the water. The biggest thing that we can credit that to is to the increased awareness, which, because of the media hype and the whole blitz and everything, it really perked people's ears up. And I can't be happier that this has happened. But I wouldn't have asked for it again. It kept a lot of people up a lot of sleepless nights.

RACHEL REABE: And you have used words like "outrageous," "unbelievable" in how restrictive the proposed legislation was. What were the things that really got you, that you felt were just totally out of line?

JIM MEDEMA: There were a number of them. Where do I start? One that came around the back door for us was the three strikes you're out provision, which after it was brought out in the light, was promptly removed. But there was a three strikes you're out deal where if you got three citations for anything, whether you had a missing registration or you had got a nuisance citation or a careless driving citation, if you got three, you lost your personal watercraft riding privileges for life.

We don't even do that for hardened criminals in the state of Minnesota. We don't have that anywhere in this state. And Representative Hasskamp spoke with us and said, I thought that would be a good thing for you because that gets the bad apples off the water.

And we agree that that sort of thing about getting bad apples off the water is important. But the way that it was stated and put together, something like a nuisance complaint, we don't do that with cars. If you drive erratically and somebody calls in a complaint, three complaints and you lose your driving privileges for life, it's just not there.

I think it started as a 300-acre lake ban across the state. And I think it moved to 200.

KRIS HASSKAMP: No, I had 200.

JIM MEDEMA: OK, 200-acre lake ban, which-- and we all agree that 200-acre lake is a very small lake by comparison to most of the larger lakes most people enjoy riding on. But when you ban personal watercraft on a lake, all of a sudden, we're going to be blocking off more than 80% of the lakes in the state.

So all the personal watercraft would be concentrated on 20% of the lakes of the state. And that's not only unfair to the people who live on those larger lakes, but to the people who boat on them, who swim in them. All of a sudden, you've got a bad concentration, which increases safety concerns when you've got those additional machines on the water. And it also takes away the opportunity for people who live on the smaller lakes to enjoy those small lakes with their personal watercraft, teach your kids to water ski, pull people behind inner tubes.

RACHEL REABE: What was your thinking, Kris, when you put that in the legislation?

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well, I spent a lot of time, at least two years, looking at-- first of all, talking to people with experiences, hearing from people that they were losing loons, where personal watercraft appeared on their small lakes. They were loon counters for the DNR. And they were noticing a direct relation between losing loons-- and there was a lot more-- people weren't going swimming out in their docks anymore, because there's not a lot of area.

And when you have a fast vehicle, very maneuverable, by the time they get up to full speed, then they got to turn around. So there's a constant droning. And anybody on those lakes would actually almost be pushed over the emotional edge on almost water torture.

Plus, I was in the air. And I saw that those who were operating them on them were just going in circles. I mean, there's nothing else to do but go in circles.

RACHEL REABE: On such a small lake.

KRIS HASSKAMP: On the little lakes. Plus, I found out that when you're dealing with the longer duration of operating a personal watercraft versus a traditional boat, there's many more hours of usage of that. And when I found out that about 30% of the fuel is literally lost into the water and some of the things like that and then also the effect that these machines had on going closer to shore, getting closer into the weeds, and possibly impacting loons and other kind of wildlife nests, I began to be almost alarmed at not protecting our small lakes.

Now, I'm an avid snowmobiler. I've been on the lakes all my life. I love boating. I love snowmobiling. I have a scooter. I love scooter with my motorcycle around. But there are appropriate places for things. We have a trail system for snowmobiles. And we don't let ATVs on public highways.

And why don't we find appropriate places-- and that's what I was trying to say. Let's find the larger lakes where they can handle more of this. Because when I went over on Gull Lake, I went over in the air with the DNR to Whitefish and Mille Lacs Lake, there's so much acreage that they could have a lot of fun out there.

But why do they need to be on every single lake? Can't we preserve at least our smallest lakes? That was my thought.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone lines are open. The number, 1-800-537-5252. I'm Rachel Reabe. And this is a special Mainstreet broadcast from the Weyfest grounds at Detroit Lakes. This hour, we are talking about personal watercraft. Our guests, Jim Medema from the Jetsporters Association, Kris Hasskamp from the legislature, and Dennis Lang from the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources.

Dennis, let's talk a little bit about the impact on wildlife and the vegetation, the aquatic vegetation in the lakes. Is that a great concern? Does that happen, people chasing loons on personal watercraft?

DENNIS LANG: Can I also add to that question, does that happen with people in other boats? Well, the complaints of them chasing broods of ducks, chasing loons are very common. I'd say several a week just for me. And does it happen with other watercraft? I suppose it does, but it doesn't generate the complaints. And therefore, I think it happens a lot more often with the jet ski than it would with anything else.

RACHEL REABE: Why do you think that, Dennis? I mean, why do you think it would be more common with personal watercraft? Because it's easier for them to get around and do that? They're closer to the water?

DENNIS LANG: I don't know. I think maneuverability is one thing. And a lot of times, when you're in a boat, there's two or three minds thinking at the same time. When you're on a jet ski, generally, there's one person on it. And poor judgment, if that person is using it, will probably prevail in the operation of it.

It's just really common. I have also seen some things. And I don't know what the validity. It'll probably be tested. But on smaller lakes, when you get a lot of operation-- and they're restricted to a lot of area. You're churning the water more. And you may be changing the thermocline and the temperature of the water at deeper levels. You may be changing the oxygen content.

Therefore, you may be impacting wildlife, such as fish and aquatic plants. And of course, that's part of the ecosystem. And everything starts out in the water, whether it be microbiology. And it goes on up from there. So we don't know what all the problems are, I don't think.

RACHEL REABE: Jim, how would you respond to that? Do you agree that it could be a serious environmental problem with the gas emissions into the lake and the chasing of the wildlife? Or don't you see that as a major problem?

JIM MEDEMA: I see any chasing of wildlife as an incredible and awful behavior that has to be addressed. And I don't care who's doing it. If that is as frequent as Mr. Lang here says, then we need to be addressing that. I don't know if the problems that are being proposed by Representative Hasskamp, though, are the best way to solve that problem.

Regarding the fuel that leaves the engine unburned, the correct percentage is 25%. And that's a well-publicized percentage. The other thing about that fuel-- and some of the junk scientists out there who are building this hype are saying that it's like dumping gasoline raw right into the water.

And that junk science is absolutely and scientifically incorrect in that the gas that does pass through a two-stroke engine, that does not get burned. Exits that engine at a temperature of several hundred degrees. And they've done underwater video studies. And they've found that it doesn't mix with the water in the way that you would think that it would.

But it follows a narrow trail. And because it's so hot, it evaporates. It goes to the top immediately and evaporates. If the dangers were as extreme as the spin doctors are purporting, then we would have incredible levels of toxicity in lakes and reservoirs and rivers across the country and around the world because of personal watercraft.

The other thing that's not being pointed out here is that personal watercraft are being singled out here because they operate on two-stroke motors. What hasn't been pointed out is that there are 725,000 other registered boats in the state of Minnesota, of which, a great majority of them operate on two-stroke motors.

So if you're going to take personal watercraft and just say, well, you're polluting here because you've got a two-stroke motor, you've also got to talk to all the fishermen and all the people who operate speedboats and pontoon boats and just say, I'm sorry, you've got to get your machine out of the water. And California is dealing with this right now because of a fuel additive that they put in their gas for automobile engines that is being unhealthy for the water environment out there.

RACHEL REABE: We're going to go to our phone lines. We have callers standing by. First up, Paul from Two Harbors. Good afternoon, Paul.

AUDIENCE: Hello. How are you doing?

RACHEL REABE: Hi, I'm fine.

AUDIENCE: Good, yeah. I was just calling to give a scenario that happens here on Lake Superior, where I live. You can be out in the yard on the beach and hear this buzzing sound coming from somewhere. You can't see a vehicle out on a lake anywhere. And about five minutes later, you can see a little dot coming at you. And where I live is in a bay. And it seems to be a area that they seem to come to and to buzz around right in front of the yard.

And it's pretty darn obnoxious, the noise that they make. If anything, I think the technology of these things needs to be changed as far as noise goes. And with the pollution that you've been talking about, what Kris was saying about the lakes, finding certain lakes to do this, then I thought was very appropriate. Even on the bigger lakes. I think there should be an area that they're allowed to be inside of. That way, people know where to stay out of and whatnot. But as far as getting the noise down would be a big plus, I think,

KRIS HASSKAMP: I want to just add here, Rachel, that I did receive a letter from the CEOs of Arctic Cat, I think, Polaris too, that-- again, my goal was to raise awareness and make changes in behavior or whatever. And the noise, obviously, can push anybody over the emotional edge when you have to listen to that fluctuating drone. But they said that they're working right now on technologies, not only to reduce the decibels, but reduce the buzz, the pitch of it. And I'm really anxious to hear some of those machines.

But I just wanted to add to something that was Jim was saying, when you talk about loons and you talk about traditional boats, it takes a long time to turn those things. And so you really can't do a lot of chasing. You can go after them. But loons and others have learned to get out of the way.

Now the loon is unique on a little lake, because the loon needs a long way to-- almost like a runway to take off. They can't jump up like a duck can, and so they're much more vulnerable. And when you have a maneuverability of a personal watercraft going around and around, that's a recipe for disaster.

So that's part of the reason. I don't know why it's so hard for people to think that-- well, at first, when I talked to Jim about 200-acre band, he said, that's fine, we don't go on them anyway. And then when he found out there was like 80% of our lakes, even though we brag about our 10,000-plus lakes, then all of a sudden, his position and the group's changed.

I don't know why we can't just say there's appropriate places, just like we have stockcar places where we want to go and hit demolition derbies. There's appropriate places for all kinds of activities and fun, isn't it like a hazardous waste dump, though. We just hear this caller from Lake Superior. That's a big body of water, but still find it to be annoying for them.

And if you look at around the country-- and of course, I get materials from all over the world. They have to be out 500 feet on some of the shorelines in California. Florida is starting to do some really major ones. They're having a real problem with safety.

So I'm trying to look ahead. That's what I was trying to do. I was trying to solve the problem. We have a DNR officer here. Maybe they've got two or three in an area. We got maybe five sheriff water patrollers. And yet, we have, in my district alone, 450 lakes.

There's no way that we can patrol that. And that's why I tried to put a civil penalty on it, first of all, get it out of the criminal court to give that option so that you could find them and maybe deter them from future problems. But I also wanted the citizens, like we do for trespass or littering, to be able to sign a sworn statement under oath that this particular offense occurred on a personal watercraft and then have that dealt with so that we could deter the bad operators and people like Jim who operate responsibly can feel good back on the waters.

RACHEL REABE: We have Scott from Minneapolis on the phone. Good afternoon, Scott.

AUDIENCE: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I guess you're just pretty much just answered my question, Kris. First of all, I'd like to say thank you for going after this. I grew up, spent my life in Cuyuna and spent a lot of time on East [? Beulah, ?] Rabbit Lake, and Clinker Lake and lakes such as those.

And my biggest concern with these people getting crazy on them and coming near fishermen and chasing us off the lake is how to enforce it. I mean, Gary guide, obviously, can't chase everybody down and arrest everybody for this. And that was my biggest question is, with all the lakes in that district up there, who is going to enforce this? And how do we take care of it? I'll answer-- or hang up and listen. Thanks.

DENNIS LANG: One thing about that, as an enforcement officer, we got 150-foot limit that we're dealing with. And it becomes our judgment. And sometimes those things are very hard to judge. And so typically, any enforcement officer is going to take the safe side of it.

So when we say 150 feet, we're probably not going to do anything until it's within 100 or within 75 feet because that's a little bit--

RACHEL REABE: You got to go with the majors.

DENNIS LANG: It's a safe side. So when we go to court, if it would come-- and like Kris said, these are criminal penalties now. If we had civil, it probably wouldn't be that way. But we go to court and conceivably could have to convince a jury that this actually happened. And the defense is going to be-- he was 151 feet from the dock or from the swimmer after-- from the moored watercraft or whatever it is.

So when you do that, the officer's automatically going to build in some kind of a system that we can operate within. So 150 feet is difficult for us to judge.

JIM MEDEMA: And I agree with Officer Lang here that doing the enforcement piece is-- first of all, we don't have enough officers out on the water the way it is for all boats, whether or not personal watercraft were ever invented. We need more people out there.

The enforcement route is the most difficult, most expensive, most onerous process of going about this. Are you going to build a solid dike? Or are you going to build a dike with holes in it and then have people run around, stick their fingers in the holes? You've got to be getting people educated on the front side as a preventative measure rather than wait until we're out there.

And again, until people are educated and they've been told in very clear terms from people who are enthusiasts themselves even, that this is what the law is. This is what the situation is. Here's where to go with it.

RACHEL REABE: In tourist areas like Detroit Lakes, a significant number of personal watercraft on the lakes are not being operated by their owners. Instead, they're rental boats, usually driven by jet ski novices. Our Mainstreet reporter Dan Gunderson is at a resort on Detroit Lakes just a few miles north of us. That's a resort that rents jet skis. And, Dan, are you sitting on a jet ski right now?

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DAN GUNDERSON: That's right, Rachel. I'm actually getting instructions right now from Larry Winterfeldt. He runs Fairyland Cottages and rental here on Detroit Lake. And he's been renting a personal watercraft for a couple of years now. And he's just running through the instructions, telling me how to run one of these things safely. Larry, how much safety instructions do you give to people before you let them out on the water?

SPEAKER 1: Between doing their contract, by the time we get them on the water, the whole process probably takes about 10 to 15 minutes. We go over a couple of main things. One has to do with the law. Two is where you can and can't ride on the lake and how you can damage your machine. The rest of it then pertains to the safety factors, how to board the machine, what to do if your machine doesn't run while you're out there.

And the rest of it has to do with just the general operation, the fact that-- where your gas is; the fact that there's no brakes; when you go into a turn, that you need to keep the throttle going-- that's the most common way people tip over; how to start and stop your machine and what distance from shore you need to be.

DAN GUNDERSON: How safe are these machines in your estimation? You rent them to a wide variety of people. I'm assuming many don't have any experience. Do you consider these to be safe?

SPEAKER 1: Yeah, we rent one-, two- and three-person machines. Our most popular machine is a three-person machine. In general, most of the people that we get have not ridden them before. We send two people out on these. It's just like being on a boat. They can change drivers. They could go fishing off of this thing. You could hit a rock and sit out there and float all day with the engine compartment full of water on this type of machine. They're much different from the machines that first came out years and years ago.

DAN GUNDERSON: Now, the personal watercraft has been the subject of a lot of pretty hot debate in the past couple of years because a lot of people live around lakes and who fish lakes in Minnesota don't like them. Do you see a lot of inappropriate use of personal watercraft? And how careful do you have to be in determining who you're going to rent them to?

SPEAKER 1: Well, that's up to the individual operator. I mean, we do a pretty thorough job. We're on a city beach here, so we get a lot of exposure. We personally carry a million dollars in insurance. And the insurance companies have been pursuing different ways of making these things safe. They're talking about such things as instructional videos next year and tests actually before you can take them out on rental.

So they're cracking down and turn-- other people are cracking down. It's really no coincidence we're the only place left in the county that still rents these. Most places don't want to deal with the extra paperwork. They don't want to buy the bigger machines. They don't want to spend the money into it.

A lot of places used to just open up with a couple jet skis, and they start renting them anywhere. They're uninsured. Machine didn't cost a lot. We can do it basically, because it's not our only business. We rent boats and fishing boats and pontoons and water bikes and a ton of other equipment in addition to the jet skis.

DAN GUNDERSON: Do you ever have to turn people away? Do you have people who may be intoxicated or people who may just not be willing to follow the rules?

SPEAKER 1: All the time. Matter of fact, one of the things we put in our contracts is that we can pull you from your jet ski rental if we see you out there violating them. Most commonly, it's just educating parents that come up. A lot of them think their children can drive at any age, and that's been a big law change.

So this year, it's been a lot of education. We probably turn away 25% of the people that come up for that reason. They're looking for their children to go out and ride them. And these machines move 55 miles an hour to 70 miles an hour. Now, they're not the little toys that they used to be. You have to be careful who you rent them to. Definitely, it's not appropriate for someone to be intoxicated while they're out there on these machines. And you have to watch for that, too.

DAN GUNDERSON: If the regulations get tougher on these machines, would you continue to rent them? Or at what point would you say it's simply not worth it to provide this service for my guests?

SPEAKER 1: It's getting close right now. There's no doubt about it. And the reason is it's not so much the jet skis that the laws are-- in my opinion, I'm not advocating the jet skis necessarily, but the laws are unfair. They don't treat them in equal terms. For example, I can go out and buy speedboats next year, put them on the water, and I don't have to deal with any of the paperwork. I don't have to pay the additional insurance. And these people don't have to obey the same laws as the jet ski.

Who's going to get more likely to get hurt? It's a good question. If you drive those speedboats the same as these jet skis, you're just as likely to get hurt. I think a lot of it has to do with just the instructions. Rental agencies, I think, do an excellent job of it. I think people that owned their own machines do an excellent job of it.

I think the problem comes from the people that loan out their machine. They give them to the next person. They give them no instructions. These people take them out thinking they're a play toy. Particularly the way these machines have changed, if anything, instead of accidents going down, they're probably going to go up. You've got a lot more horsepower on these machines.

And there's probably less education. Even though there's an attempt by the DNR to do more education, there's less education given by the people that own them. They'll hand that out to anybody and let anyone drive their jet ski, but they won't let them use their own car.

DAN GUNDERSON: OK, Larry, do you think I'm ready to go?

SPEAKER 1: Pretty much. We went over everything and all the basics. All I got to do is just get you pushed out here a little bit where you're deep enough. And we just have to hit this green button right here.

DAN GUNDERSON: All right, Rachel, we'll toss it back to you. And I'm going to head out and check one of these personal watercraft out here on Detroit Lake.

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RACHEL REABE: Thank you, Dan. We're continuing our conversation on personal watercraft with Dennis Lang of the Department of Natural Resources; Jim Medema, president of the Jetsporters Association of Minnesotal and Representative Kris Hasskamp. Our show is coming to you live from Weyfest, the largest country music camping festival in the country just outside of Detroit Lakes.

And our phone lines are open for your questions and comments about personal watercraft today, 1-800-537-5252. We're going up to Bemidji now, where Pete is on the line. Good afternoon, Pete.

AUDIENCE: Yes. Well, I was listening to our DNR friend there and saying that he had to be sure about the actual wrongdoing of the craft going from 150 down to as low as 75 feet. Well, normally, DNR people don't have to wait to go check freezers out in a house for too many fish. Or they don't have to worry about going in and checking if there's a wild game law break down.

And I think that it's time-- like, we have four of them or five of them next door to us here, and they literally drive us nuts. And by the time the DNR gets here, they're gone. And/or they're docked. And we're getting the point here where it's getting really, really annoying.

I mean, on a small lake, we're not on a real big lake. And it's a narrow, long lake. And they're a real problem. And they're annoying everybody up and down the lake. And I just-- I think it's time to get serious with this thing. And I don't care what anybody says. It's unfair that they're getting treated wrong.

Well, it's time to realize that they're not for chasing loons or for disturbing people to fish. You sit out in your boat all day. And you try and fish. And you got the waves up and down and up and down. You're constantly harassed by them. And that gets to be that hot dogging business of driving around in circles. That's nonsense. And--

JIM MEDEMA: I agree fully.

AUDIENCE: I think it's time to doggone well get it straight and give them a place where they can run like they do snowmobiles and give them certain places they can run around in and leave the rest of us alone. We don't like them. We don't like that noise either.

JIM MEDEMA: Interesting--

RACHEL REABE: How would you respond to that, Dennis? This guy sounds like he's near the breaking point. Do you talk to a lot of people who are at that point where they have just had it?

DENNIS LANG: They need to keep talking to us. We get several complaints. But the more complaints we get from a certain area, the more we're going to be right there. And we need to get some kind of a method of operation, probably. Usually, their weekends, is it Sundays? Is it Saturdays?

RACHEL REABE: Because you really can't cite them unless you catch them in the act?

DENNIS LANG: Right, and it's difficult to do anything other than catch them in the act. And then we have to be in a position where we can judge that distance. If I'm out 400, 500 yards in the lake and I see somebody-- unless I actually see him splash somebody on the dock, I can't really tell how far they were.

RACHEL REABE: And that--

DENNIS LANG: So the thing to do is just keep talking to us. And the sheriff's office is paid by DNR to go out and do boating water safety things. Talk to them, too. But keep in touch with us. And sooner or later, we're going to correct the problem, if not by education, by a ticket, thought.

KRIS HASSKAMP: I think what's really important is this is a real problem. We have lakes that-- there's no way that there can be enforcement on with traditional methods. That's why I really wanted the citizen's complaint. It works beautifully for littering problems. Because before, who is going to see somebody's litter except for somebody witnessing it? It works wonderful for trespass.

And why can't we give the citizens that opportunity? Because this caller is frustrated. I don't blame him. I'm hearing from hundreds and hundreds of these people. And they don't think the law is there for them. Because they know that the officers can never get there in time. They can never witness it. The people on the lake, they know their lake. They know how far out 150 feet is.

And by the way, the reason I started at 200 feet for this setback and no wake was because I knew that at the 100 feet, they weren't even-- they were very few prosecutions on it. And I wanted to at least get them out 100 feet away for safety.

So I think the frustration is still with the large amount of lakes-- and that's one of the reasons I wanted to go to the 200-acre ban-- to reduce the amount of lakes they'd have to cover. Because right now, we're finding more people going to the little lakes because they know they can't be enforced there, So this is why I did the bill the way I did it, trying to deal with the entire problem.

JIM MEDEMA: I think it's important to point out that the Jetsporters Association and nobody that I've talked with that that cares really has ever said that the kind of behavior that this caller has experienced is appropriate, is OK. It's awful. It's not fair. It's not right. It's not good. The people that are riding that way on their lake, this gentleman shouldn't have to put up with it.

That's the sort of thing that has to be addressed on two playing fields. The first one is technology. And we can spend a bit more time talking about that. But the other thing is the behavior. If there are five skis next door, is there a parent involved, or are these all young people? Are they all older people? Have they ever been educated? Do they even know what the laws are?

And then the thing about let's talk about courtesy here, yeah, you've got 150-foot no-wake zone between you and the shore and other boats and things. I don't care what the 150-foot rule says. If there's a fisherman out there, give them as much space as you can. Scoot away to the other side of the lake and work on avoiding people.

People need to be educated and taught. It's important, when you're out riding with your family or even when you've rented a machine, ride it and then give it a break.

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well, I think, Rachel, that's the-- the core problem is they're not all like Jim. I'm glad that there are people like Jim operating courteously. And I hear from them. I hear from people who supported my bill that were jet supporters and say they go out 500 feet. They only go between noon and 4:00.

I mean, there's a lot of wonderful, responsible, courteous people. But when you have the industry marketing, all this thrill riding and it's beginning to--

JIM MEDEMA: They do that with minivans.

KRIS HASSKAMP: It's creating a hype where you've got people jumping the wakes. You've got them going fast. You're marketing to people who may want the thrill and not remember or not realize there's people that are being affected by what you're doing.

So that's what's hard here is this is a unique vehicle. It's like getting a four-wheeler in the early days to go romping through the woods without any care. And now, unfortunately, the other people in the lake are having problems because of that.

RACHEL REABE: Let's talk about the education efforts. Videos were actually sent to all personal watercraft owners in the state of Minnesota. And there were also big effort, wasn't there, Dennis, with public service announcements to try to get people to listen and to act responsibly. In fact, we have one of those public service announcements. Let's take a listen to that right now.

[AUDIO PLAYBACK]

- Personal watercraft, sometimes called jet skis, can be a lot of fun when used responsibly. This is DNR Conservation Officer James Loftness. Personal watercraft now have to stay at a slow, no-wake speed within 150 feet of shoreline, docks, swimmers, swimming rafts, and moored and anchored boats. And a personal watercraft rule sticker must be displayed in full view of the operator. For a copy of the new personal watercraft laws, call the DNR at 1-888-MINN-DNR.

[END PLAYBACK]

RACHEL REABE: Would we assume that those have been effective, Dennis, if we have seen a 50% drop in complaints?

DENNIS LANG: There's no doubt that they'd be effective. And the Minnesota DNR probably really does a lot of good work-- a lot of good work on that. And they get awards from all over the country. So we're the leader in the education thing. In fact, that's the philosophy of DNR educate.

RACHEL REABE: But then we hear Dan Gunderson on Detroit Lake 10 minutes ago saying-- from the guy who was renting it, saying about 10 minutes of instruction, including the paperwork, and you're gone on it.

JIM MEDEMA: I think Minnesota's-- the awards that the DNR has received has been on the materials that they produce, which have been outstanding. But as far as the actual education, the only stuff that education that's out there is the packet that goes out in the mail to the young people and then periodic. This is the first time I've heard any public service announcement from personal watercraft put out by the DNR.

KRIS HASSKAMP: I want to add to that, Rachel, that part of the bill we did pass was the $50 for three-year surcharge extra for personal watercraft operators that would go half to the DNR, half to the counties. And then part of that money would have to be used for that educational purposes. And that was our goal, to not only upgrade enforcement, but also to educate.

So we did succeed in that. But unfortunately, we couldn't pass the operator permit, which Jim and I have always agreed on. And we're going to have to go back and look at that and try to get a little more education than 10 minutes. And I don't know how you can retain the law. I mean, I spent two years, and I know the law pretty well. But that's two years versus 10 minutes.

RACHEL REABE: We'll find out from Dan Gunderson later how that 10 minutes did him. Now we go to the phones. Karla from Lengby. Good afternoon.

AUDIENCE: Yeah, hi, Dennis.

DENNIS LANG: Yes.

AUDIENCE: Yeah, hi. My son got a violation here, a warning of a violation operating during restricted hours on Lengby Lake for-- what do you call it-- a jet ski. And what are the restricted hours?

DENNIS LANG: Well, they're not allowed to operate before 9:30 in the morning, and then they have to put them away one hour before sunset.

AUDIENCE: One hour before sunset.

DENNIS LANG: Yes, that's the current law. And the reason that he got a Warning is because we're taking a very soft enforcement approach. We're trying to educate this year, and it could be in the future that enforcement will become a little tougher. But that's what our department decided to do this year because the law was new. So it sounds like he just got a warning. And that's probably appropriate.

RACHEL REABE: I've got a quick question for the caller. Now your son, obviously, was on a machine. I'm not sure if it was his machine, but--

AUDIENCE: It wasn't his.

RACHEL REABE: Is there a decal of the laws? Because the law-- the decal is supposed to be on the machine right by now.

AUDIENCE: It was on there. He just had a warning violation because I guess the DNR that was watching said that my son wasn't doing anything wrong. And they couldn't understand why the caller called in.

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well, if he's out past the hour before sunset, then it is breaking--

AUDIENCE: This is 8:20.

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well, if a sunset was 9:20 or earlier--

JIM MEDEMA: One of the reasons that did go through this year was the sunset, one hour before sunset. And the latest that the sunsets in the state is 8:04.

AUDIENCE: 8:04, huh?

JIM MEDEMA: At least at the Twin City area.

AUDIENCE: This is--

JIM MEDEMA: Or excuse me, 9:04.

DENNIS LANG: 9:04.

JIM MEDEMA: So the latest somebody can ride in the Twin City longitude is 8:04.

RACHEL REABE: Let's go ahead with our callers--

AUDIENCE: --8:04?

KRIS HASSKAMP: That's right.

JIM MEDEMA: And that's for six weeks.

RACHEL REABE: Let's move ahead with our questions and our callers. Our lines are full. We go now to Alan in Minneapolis. Good afternoon, Alan.

AUDIENCE: Hi, how are you doing?

RACHEL REABE: Fine.

AUDIENCE: Basically, when I'm listening to is there's basically four different things. We have safety, pollution, noise, and then there's one more. The safety issue, I mean, I don't think anybody that rides a jet ski, which I do-- and my best friend do both safely. Don't drink while we're doing it. And we wouldn't advocate it.

So nobody's going to argue that. And maybe getting them on different lakes is a good idea. But as far as the noise issue, that goes hand in hand with the safety, I guess. I would say that the guy that called in that couldn't deal with it to exercise his social skills and talk to his neighbors and let them know, let them understand. If you can't talk to your neighbors and help them understand, then you have to call the cops, and you have the problem.

And then the other thing is pollution. She's talking about earlier with the unused fuel being dumped in the lake. We send off one space shuttle to throw satellites in space so we can all watch TV comfortably. That's far more pollution than any amount of jet skis that have ever been.

And then the other thing is re-election basically. It's simple math. People that are young can afford jet skis. People that are older that have more money to afford the speedboats and pontoons. And the person there that's-- she's a smart woman. That's why she's in public office. She knows that if she backs the older people that are against jet skis, because old people don't drive jet skis, she'll get reelected. Simple as that.

RACHEL REABE: Dennis, let's respond to that part of the question. And I've heard that said that these restrictions are discriminatory because people who can't afford a 17-foot craft, they can get a jet ski. They can get in at, what, $5,000, Jim?

JIM MEDEMA: Yeah, the least expensive ones are right around 4,000. The most are around 7,000 or 8,000.

DENNIS LANG: I'm seeing a lot of older voters on jet skis. A lot of people are buying them for their grandkids, for their children. And almost everybody that I know-- and you can go around the lake and see what's parked in front of a house. But almost everybody that has a jet ski that I see, at least on the lakes, has at least one other watercraft. But there's a lot of older people that are now starting to use jet skis, and they use them pretty responsibly.

RACHEL REABE: Craig from Minneapolis is on the line. Good afternoon, Craig.

AUDIENCE: I've got a place in Wisconsin. We've got a ski boat, a wave runner, and a fishing boat. And our lake has no wake rules that are in effect from 6:30 PM until 10:00 in the morning. And it's wonderful to get up and get out there at 10 o'clock and water ski when the water's nice.

And by mid-afternoon and it's choppy, I'll get out in the wave runner. And at 6:30, when the no-wake rules are enforced, then you can get out there and fish. I mean, it's amazing the change in the water and the change in just the overall environment. Is there any way to rather than--

JIM MEDEMA: Is that for all boats?

AUDIENCE: That's for all boats. Yes, it's 6:30 PM to 10:00 AM, no wake. And yeah, you miss some nice water. But if you're a fisherman, it's wonderful. And believe me, at 6:30 PM, it's like flipping a switch on that lake. Things just quiet down. You can sit on your dock. And you can enjoy the beach.

But I was just wondering if there's any way to do that on more than a lake by lake basis. This is a pretty good-sized lake. It's a 2-mile lake. And there are bigger boats that have through the hull exhaust that are more noisy and obnoxious than some of the jet skis. But it's just amazing what a no-wake rule will do if you could enforce it on a statewide basis. And whether it's for personal watercraft in general, I don't know if that's possible, but it's an option.

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well, I looked at that possibility of doing a no wake. And I think I had that originally. As a matter of fact, my first language of the bill said that at that time they would go to slow, no wake. So I said, well, if somebody's trying to come back or somebody just out for a little tour, they use another little maybe a pontoon ride or something and they're on a jet ski, that they could stay out without causing a disruption. But the Jetsporters and others said, well, we might as well not be on them if you can't run full out.

JIM MEDEMA: It's like saying you can ride your bicycle, but you can only ride fast enough so that you don't tip over, but no faster than that. And something about what the caller said about, let's make this a blanket, 6:30 PM for the state or for any county or whatever--

RACHEL REABE: You're not big on that

JIM MEDEMA: Not at all. Do you know how many people work during the week? Do you know how many people don't even get home till 5:00, 5:30, 6:00?

RACHEL REABE: So that would be discriminatory.

JIM MEDEMA: That would take five days out of seven-day week out and then mother nature, kids' soccer, traveling vacations, all that.

RACHEL REABE: And we just heard it does rain more on Saturdays--

JIM MEDEMA: It does.

RACHEL REABE: --than the other day of the week.

JIM MEDEMA: It does.

RACHEL REABE: Rocky in Woodbury, you're on the air with us. Go ahead, please.

AUDIENCE: Hi. Say, I believe that I've invented a solution to this problem.

JIM MEDEMA: You go, Rocky.

AUDIENCE: All right, I've invented a device that could be easily fitted or retrofitted to any jet ski and then put in buoys or rented or sold to fishermen or other boaters who don't want jet skis near them. That would just cut the throttle to an idle with a very limited distance radio transmitter. And I was wondering if anybody out there would like to support me on finishing inventing this.

RACHEL REABE: OK, what do you guys think about this? Would this solve some problems?

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well--

RACHEL REABE: Do you get what he's talking about?

KRIS HASSKAMP: I think I do, but I'd want him to call me so I could talk to him and see what the concept is and--

JIM MEDEMA: Hey, I'd want to see--

KRIS HASSKAMP: --where those pest controllers that they emit a certain wavelength. And it keeps away the pest. I don't know.

RACHEL REABE: What do you think, Jim?

JIM MEDEMA: I think it's a great idea if it's applied to all boats. I mean, if you're going to do something that will cut a throttle, wouldn't it make sense to do that for all boats so that you can-- without our good friends at the DNR having to be there to witness and enforce and all that, we'll just install this technology around the shores on the lake and around islands and things and have it cut the motor.

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well, see--

DENNIS LANG: And then on the highway for cars.

JIM MEDEMA: There you go.

KRIS HASSKAMP: Seriously--

RACHEL REABE: Rocky.

JIM MEDEMA: There you go.

KRIS HASSKAMP: I think, unfortunately, there's some, we'll say, personal liberties issues. And there's a lot of things that have to be talked about. Because I mean, we're trying to just-- I've been trying to be, believe it or not, not what Jim thinks. But I've been really trying to be moderate and trying to do the minimal things we need to have to reduce the water rage.

And I really feel that if we don't-- I mean, this is--

RACHEL REABE: So we've got road rage. Now we have water rage?

KRIS HASSKAMP: I really believe it from the people who I've talked to. And I'm glad 50% complaints are reduced this year that are all the hype and all my theatrics in the legislature. I did that on purpose to get the awareness out there. Because otherwise, if it was just the industry lobbying at the capitol, I couldn't have made any headway. So one of the things is is we've got to get the people to say, let's coexist here and respect that there's a canoeist that wants some peace and quiet, too.

RACHEL REABE: What about raising the age of operators for personal watercraft? You, Jim, support and your group supports raising it to 16.

JIM MEDEMA: Fully. And the manufacturers have done this for years.

KRIS HASSKAMP: And that was in my bill.

RACHEL REABE: To raise it to 16?

KRIS HASSKAMP: Yes, but it wasn't adopted in the Senate and House conference committee and the environment bill. So I lost the 16 one and the operator permit, which is very two important things. And I don't know why, I don't know who is lobbying against it.

RACHEL REABE: But, Jim, I'm surprised you would support that and that you wouldn't say, then that should apply to all boats.

JIM MEDEMA: I love my children. But even when my sons turn 13 years old, they're going to be in seventh grade. And I'm not going to be putting them on any machine that can go 50 miles an hour. There's just something about that age. We have determined across the country that you have to be 16 years old to drive a car because it's operating in a public place.

The potential for danger and death and all sorts of bad things grows substantially when you've got a lot of people out on the water. And with boating increasing popularity as significantly as it has the last several years, you are operating in a public place that is much more busy than it was 10, 15 years ago. And I don't want to put them at risk. And I don't want to put other boaters at risk as well for something that a seventh grader may just not--

RACHEL REABE: Scary, seventh grader. Kris, let's talk quickly in our last minute about where do you go from here. Next session, will it be more of the same? Are you coming back?

KRIS HASSKAMP: Well, first of all, I do want to get more of a snapshot view of how things are going. And I'm very encouraged by what's been happening. But I do want to look at-- what Jim and I did support was the operator permit and some course requirements for those people who have are using them, borrowing them, renting them, or just buying them. We need to get those more training and more education. Plus, I do want to go back for the 16-year-old minimum age.

Other than that, I do want to work on making it a civil penalty to give more options to the enforcement folks. And I do want to look at the citizen complaint. I mean, I really believe people need to have some law on their lakes as well. And they work well with water patrol. So it wouldn't be a vigilante-ism. I really don't believe it would be that.

RACHEL REABE: And, Jim.

JIM MEDEMA: The future for us is pushing, as we have pushed for the last three years, education, education, education. The other thing is that we're very concerned that the laws that anti-personal watercraft people want to put in are being put in stone when they should be, if anything, written in chalk because of the improvements in technology, the noise reduction. There's already a machine that's been out on the market for this entire summer cuts noise by half. All the manufacturers have been working on it. And we're expecting some announce additional announcements this fall.

The pollution, the new machines that are out there, the new technologies are way beyond the 2006 EPA standards. They're cutting it by 80%.

RACHEL REABE: We're out of time during this special Mainstreet broadcast. We've been talking to Representative Kris Hasskamp; Jim Medema, president of the Jetsporters Association of Minnesota; and Dennis Lang with the Minnesota Department of Natural resources. Thank you all for joining us today.

JIM MEDEMA: Thank you.

RACHEL REABE: This special Mainstreet Radio broadcast is a production of Minnesota Public Radio. Our engineers are Rick Hebzynski and Steve Griffith on location, Randy Johnson in Saint Paul. Our producer is Sara Meyer, executive producer Mel Sommer, field producer Dan Gunderson. We'd also like to thank Jeff Krueger and his staff for making this Weyfest broadcast possible. We invite you to visit the Mainstreet website. Go to www.mpr.org. You'll be able to hear this program as well as other Mainstreet reports. The address, again, is www.mpr.org and click on Mainstreet.

MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant making, leadership training, and convening Minnesota Public Radio's Mainstreet team is Leif Enger; Dan Gunderson; Mark Steil; and myself. Rachel Reabe.

SPEAKER 2: It's your last chance to join Minnesota Public Radio on a 10-day journey through the street markets and cafes of Prague, Vienna, and Budapest, October 21 through November 1. Reserve your seat today. Call 612-290-1212.

RACHEL REABE: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. It's 69 degrees at KNOW FM 91.1. Minneapolis. Twin Cities weather today calls for scattered showers, a high of 80 degrees, a 40% chance of rain tonight with temperatures dropping to 62. And for Saturday, skies clearing off by afternoon, high of 83 degrees. Current temperature, 69.