Thank you Gratis 6 minutes now past 11 programming a Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Dayton's oriental rug departments in downtown Minneapolis, Saint Paul and at the Southdale Brookdale and Rosedale home stores. And good morning. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary. I can glad you could join us today on. Midday. We're going to discuss just how much your boss gets paid and whether the federal government should subsidize his or her salary long time, Minnesota 5th District 5th District Democratic Congressman. Martin Sabo is renewing his effort to pass the income Equity act. That's a bill designed to help address the widening gap between CEO compensation. And what workers are getting paid right now companies are allowed to take a business expense tax deduction or what's called reasonable compensation. There is a salary cap of a million dollars on that deduction Congressman Sabo says, the definition should be changed under his proposal. The tax deduction would not apply. If a CEO salary was more than 25 times the salary of the lowest paid worker at the company of the words. If a worker we're getting paid to say 12000. Dollars to maximum tax deductible salary would be $300,000 Congressman Sabo is joining us from Washington this morning to discuss his proposal to take your questions. So we invite you to give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll-free at 1-800. 242-282-8227. 6001. 802-422-8281 Congressman. Good morning. How are you? I'm just fine. Glad you could join us. Why is this something that we should be concerned about as a society? I just think that the growing Gap in income between top and bottom in. The long run is said to stress is basically destructive to the basic fabric of American society. Also. Well, our strength has been broad-based economic strength broad-based income for people work hard. They work hard. They should be able to provide much of the basic necessities of life from their paycheck and increasingly that's not the case and and day, you know the way around the world very well and what concerns me is that slowly but gradually a week become more and more like some of the countries that we see need to go through that fundamental economic reforms and I think that understanding is growing I am would you say the Sunday and there was an interesting article in one of the papers and quoted some folks like that the chairman of lucion Technologies and visiting about what was going on and he simply says it's going to blow up in our faces. He said there's no way Society can have this much of its accumulated wealth distributed these few people. Would you see this as being much of a problem if the lowest paid workers were getting paid more? Is there something about the spread is that the real issue or is it just the fact that lower-paid workers aren't getting enough what's combination of the two the spread this drawing and that tends I think the drive the bottom down if the bottom we're doing much better at the less concerned with the reality is is the last 20 25 years or millions of Americans work very hard and they have not been fundamentally getting ahead and really conomic terms and that is Growing problem with my goal in this whole process has less to do with what happens at the top. But the real I had to get some understanding that we have to deal with what's happening at the income scale the bottom of the economic scale and that they're there are things a government can or shouldn't do in the end in recognition of that problem, but it also involves says corporate deleting this country beginning to think about it and figuring out how to deal with it is with the what the people at the bottom of the scale are getting paid. How would your proposal address that directly like increasing minimum wage increasing Earned Income Tax Credit, which has a direct impact. This one is a really measure to to get attention of the of the top economic leadership in the car. Korean saying we're going to structure the corporate tax structures so that it Bears some relationship and what you can deduct for salaries from how you treat people from top to the bottom and that the goal is it did to get and get increase your sensitivity and understanding that this is a problem as it is we deal with the basic problem in our economy when you hear and talk with CEOs about this issue or do most most of them recognize that this is an issue. You are always there a reset. I think Jackie intellectually some do but not much is happening at this one. How did you arrive at the 25 X Factor the factor 25 linking a lowest to highest pay introduced the bill. I was about the relative want a relationship between the is somebody working full-time at minimum wage in the president and the salary of the president. And I guess at this point actually the president would would not even be getting paid 25 times each other. Some callers hear that table is our gas T represents the 5th District in Minnesota and Minneapolis and Suburban areas and he is pushing for passage of a bill which would limit the tax deduction that businesses can claim for compensation limited to compensation of compensation that there would be only equal 25 times the rate of the lowest paid worker for a company right now. It's there's a million-dollar cap on that right Camp unless it's performance-based Antony. If it's performance space there then it doesn't apply and your your proposal would not include stock options and and all of those Something you were about to get the passage. It had probably have to figure out how you deal with stock options, but we've tried to keep it simple so that we can send the message who were trying to do if you'd like to join our conversation Twin City area number to 276 thousand to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828. Follow your first go ahead place. I must know. Outrageous thing in this country country to try and and penalize Executives who have been able to do well for their companies. Now. It's the generators are publicly held corporations and it's up to the stockholders to show outrage and make changes made as far as and I think the same applies to the same principle applies to workers being paid more and those things that can be accomplished through Union negotiations as well. So I I think it's a the principle of it. I think find very very offencive Democrat Congressman other than what government does say clearly the bility of Labor to negotiate and organized and that's been weakened in recent years in this country is an important component. I think through the We strengthen the labor movement. That's a very important that measure to deal with him, Gap in this country companies simply exist for the benefit of stockholders in there is Chief Executives. That isn't part what they do, but they are also part of communities and they exist in relationship to that Community. They also have a responsibility people who work for him to work in labor. There are not simply another machine that you depreciate then somehow the treat in a very impersonal Lions weigh. Traits of a company in an organization that he is a component too many things. It's it it's people are on it. It's at the top leadership and I don't underestimate the importance of top leadership. But it also represent everyone who works there human beings are working at for that particular company and and his we seen this Gap growing in length at Saint issue that we have to deal with it. We tried not trying to dictate the exactly what a company can do but we saying is that we will only allow certain types of deductions in the textbook and we're doing that and parked it there to get the nice poseable stockholders and the chief executive leaders to deal with start thinking and dealing with a much broader scale social existence is social issue that exist in the economy. Richmond behind offering a tax deduction for any wage no matter what the level it might be. What's what's the cost of doing business and we modify those deductions that are available for business and how many varieties of the tax code to four years and said that the that excessive compensation is not deductible. It is never tried to the Define in-law what excessive complicated compensation is for the purpose of the ducting it for you for tax purposes your question. Please work for Northwest Airlines and they're making record profits and with they've been working for a contract for over a year-and-a-half and let c e always making like way more than the workers are hiring. Basically, I just would like to hear your comments on that. Dave are involved in negotiations site. I would hope that they not case you're dealing with that workers who are well-organized been there any onions and I would assume that is the nature Northwest it's turned around with those employees and their representatives shall would be aggressively involved in those negotiations. It was clear a few years ago when the Northwest it so we conomic problem said the workers were called on to make sacrifices in terms of salary and compensation and it didn't help that the company get buy a hurdle which one of the things that happened to it was the employees were given a significant amount of ownership in the company at that same time to which I think is a plus Jimmy raupp. Next question for Congressman Sable comment. I'd like the congressman's reaction it would seem to me and I've not done any thorough study of this but it would seem to me than some of the most productive Industries in America. I'm thinking of high-tech Because the number of people certainly not as so well pay his Bill Gates but a number of highly paid professionals and in fields that are highly productive and highly competitive you might get some of the the widest wage differentials and some of them on the other hand some of the least productive areas. I'm thinking within a lot of government areas. I'm taking particular education, which is blatantly one of the least productive also least competitive. It would fall under a well under your guidelines. But yet I don't think it's that productive. It isn't that part of the problem that in these government nopoly areas where it where there is more wage compression. There's actually less productivity. Now, I'm not sure how you measure that and I'm not sure I did share your views and education that's going to bury something from industry to Industry and some of the problems they relate to what happens in pay scale within companies, but it also goes beyond that. I think I see a lot of companies go through downsizing part of what happens in downsizing is a lots of lore lore paid employees are pushed out of a loser the company pay scale. They lose it lose the health benefits of benefit pension benefits companies in contracts with somebody who is paid lower his poor health and pension benefits letter from some company to perform that same service for the company. I don't pretend that this bill with some Panacea that's going to solve all the problems here. It's it it's a bill designed to highlight a problem. It is a it is a bill designed to try and attract to the creative attention of some Economic delete this country to how we deal with a very fundamental economic and social issue, which I think they're ignoring. How much what do you suppose should be Society? Skull Congressman should workers be getting paid enough. So that one worker can support a traditional four person family. Should that be kind of our goal if I could probably describe I would think that somebody is working should be able to make the special money to pay for the basic necessities of life housing food clothing without government assistance in many cases. That's not true in America today. It also should be true is it kind of negroes Andres and expands that income growth across occurs across fall income sectors that happened from the end of World War II until the early 1970s for the last 25 years. We found the Walk of the Inns. Girls has gone to the very top and our economy that's partially company checked it is but not exclusively then so it's always had the very much of concentration of income growth. Very top and our economy. Why do you suppose that occurred one of those statistics that I saw indicated that if the minimum wage had kept pace with CEO compensation since 1968, the minimum wage at kept up a we would now be at a minimum wage of 41 bucks an hour. That's right at 5:15. / 365 largest companies was 190000. It is now 7.8 million minimum wage in 1960 was a dollar at 5:15. So that's going to five times and the other one is gone up about 41 x. Why does that happen? Those are tough questions. I think in part it's a minimum wage rate today in real terms should be hired and what it is. I think we should increase if that's not kept up with inflation. I didn't clear up our workers as we are organized its Redwood switched from into more and more semi-skilled service jobs and globalization of the economy has put more pressure on production workers in this country on the growth of then comes at the very top and the salary compensation that maybe competition but I often think it's also a lots of it has to do with the eagle. In comparison with what other Executives said May is there is generally pattern the most board of directors. Lots of the other members who are the chief executive officers of other companies outside start of a steamrolling impact than me in as a relates to that form of compensation. I got a couple comments that I'd like a reaction from if you could end up in one point. I'd like to make is that the highly compensated executive a human or a family can only in the sense consume so much. And in reality most of that accept compensation was back into the stock market goes back into companies is venture-capital. It is used to create more jobs and create more on new technologies that the better our lives and the other thing is is a Drunk History we have The attempt to create these workers paradises turn into oppression and tyranny and lots of Liberty and end things that get to be maybe not so wonderful, even though in theory there. They should all work. And one last point is is that our own president and his wife paid only about 10% of their income in taxes this year according to what I heard on the television there and it was just a 16% as I recall and that was after about half of the money was given away to charity. So whatever that capitalist. Okay, I believe that the best system to deliver goods and services to all people is free enterprise and capitalism. I think it's important to always reference history. In this process and who are these parents that the credit these better systems? I just watched a lengthy thing on public television that just about wanted me to cry before we get the congressman to respond a quick question for you fill. Do you think CEOs voluntarily lot to limit their pay in recognition of their relationship to their workers? I think that's way too complex of an issue. If you got a lot of a workers that are located it going to come mm versus a handful of Highly compensated. Does that make a difference? I mean, how do you flush that whole thing out in and when the politicians metal in free-enterprise, there's always winners and losers and generally the politician supporters are the common people. Horseman some basic economic Justice in the what about his argument though that that this money tends to get reinvested and that more people get hired that overall. It's really good for the economy good for the for the people at the bottom of the scale makes it somehow it'll trickle down after eventually. It's at the bottom of the income scale. Let's not to what's been happening last 25 years up until the seventies art is our economy grew its productivity increase salaries went up a Crossing come Spectrum increasingly that's not been the case in the last 25 years and that to what degree that additional or the higher salaries gets reinvested re calling the early 80s when we had a big tax cut aimed at the Ford we were going to toilet told I was going to substantially increase the savings, right and it didn't appear that the tax guy named at the affluent was spent I had that they were not different than most anyone else but we're done and is very good. But but we've always had some modifications and it to take some of its harshness out part of its in the minimum wage for a part of it is Working rules relating to working condition. So yeah it is that that we've built over the years and in is so it will try and take some of that harshness out of that. He conomic system and I frankly think you need that for its very survival. We look at the economies of emerging countries around the world today and I know virtually everyone agrees that many cases they have to go through significant reform because they have economies that are so top-heavy and most people not sharing it that is not the way you develop a good solid economica a representative democracy in this world Scott. Tell your question, please the one of the big criticisms of this plan is that is it is an unacceptable form of social engineering that the existing problems result because Of a specific form of social engineering Wich rewards companies for paying through the tax breaks that are given to companies for these really exorbitant executive compensation packages including stock options as well as pure salary those very high salaries are being directly subsidized by all the other taxpayers in the country that it isn't simply the purity of an economic system that is working and is properly rewarding people at the top. I think that there is a kind of a collusion among the boards of directors who set the salaries of themselves and the chief executive we are directly subsidizing those salaries through the tax system and I think that this is a reasonable way to address that kind of I think I'm just subsidy. I think part of it is accurate. I do not want to underestimate or dumb play the importance of the leadership of a company or or any organization honey. I think who whomever is not charged is immense responsibility plays Incredible role in the in the success. I have not one who is a Critic of leadership or underestimate the importance of for the value of it. But we also have to remember that the success depends on all workers. Start up and getting away from that it in our country and the I think it's been happening over a. Of time. We got to start figuring out how we reverse it because I think it's dangerous to the basic long-term fabric of our society Minnesota 5th District Congressman, Martin Sable is our guests this our Congressman say ball is trying to pass. Once again this year the income Equity act a bill designed to help address the widening gap between CEO compensation and the lowest paid workers. In this case. The bill would the limit the tax deduction that businesses should claim limit the tax deduction to those salaries, which are no more than 25% higher than the lowest paid worker. That's our subject or if you'd like to join our conversation. Give us a call 227-6020 area number to 276 thousand out side the Twin Cities 1 800 to 422-828-2276. 800-242-2828 if you're in the market for a new car and don't miss sound money this week should you buy or lease how important is fuel economy? And what about airbag safety? Hi, this is Bob Hunter. My guess will be Jack Ellis author of the car book. You'll be here with his Best Bets for 1998 and take your calls. I just want you for some money Saturday morning at and again Sunday afternoon at 5 on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities. Speaking of cars and trains and plans for that matter I Transportation. Secretary Rodney Slater is speaking of the Press Club this new one and we'll have live coverage coming up over the noon hour today here on midday Transportation. Secretary Rodney Slater. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include Cargill sporting Minnesota's tradition of community service and Norwest foundation on behalf of Northwest investment management and Trust beautiful beautiful spring day across Minnesota today. Sunny skies are forecast for the afternoon highs ranging from the low 70s in the arrowhead to the low eighties out west pretty much the same forecast for tomorrow as well. But then of course cuz we get to the weekend. It's supposed to rain Twin City forecast sunny this afternoon with a high around 75 clear tonight low in the mid-forties sunny tomorrow high 7275 right now temperatures for the most part in the 60s when City temperature 67 and skies are sunny. If District Congressman Martin Sabo is our guest joining us from Washington talking this hour about his proposal which would limit their the tax deduction business is going to claim to help pull down the reduce rather than the gap between what the highest paid Executives and lowest paid workers are collecting our Bells Are Ringing. So we got a roll call vote coming that I'm going to have to leave for fairly soon. So I may have to stop before we were scheduled to stop by the parts of this world. Okay. Well go when you have two and we'll just continue our conversation but stay as long as possible. Okay, another 3 minutes or so quick question for the congressman been in Congress a long time and see if seen a lot of efforts in the low and trying to raise workers wages either through increasing the minimum wager in St. Paul. I guess recently. They had a s a t origin or no Try to pass where in order to get some of the tax relief companies get from the city. They would be required to sign off on paying a livable wage that says which I think was like 7:10 you seen a lot of these efforts, and fail many of them. This one did in St. Paul. I'm wondering if you're pursuing this is from trying to point out how much the hype and folks make is is it someone in response to some frustration and trying to publicize this issue production of the bill? I wish I knew in my one and only trip to Mexico a few years ago and we were there we kept hearing from people say Mexico is changing. They were becoming more like us all of a sudden that struck me that so much of what was happening. Our country was was that we were becoming more like them, and that's what motivated niece is initially to introduce this bill and I think to deal with this problem is always difficult. My own judgment, we should increase minimum wage again. I think the significant increase we made me an Earned Income Tax Credit in 93 was a great plus. I think we have pay particular attention to it to make sure that people in the in the lower skill jobs get additional training. We need more skilled workers. All of those things have to happen. We have to deal with the availability of of health care for people who are working hard and it don't have it provided by their employers say, I think there's certain things we should not do we should not repeal the progressive income tax and replace it with a flat tax or consumption tax to me. That would be real step backwards. I I think we're inferior by workers are organized in this country historically manufacturing became a middle-class jobs because of the strength of the labor movement in this country and that I would like to see more workers. Depart of labor organization so they can bargain negotiate for their salaries. So it's an issue. I think they are there many many components to it that I just see the trend that's been going on for 25 years is being a negative one. I ain't going to long term for the very self-interest of the economically late in this country. They have to deal with it. I'm told Henry Ford always had the fairy the people of work from Babel by its product. Congressman I know you have to run but I sure appreciate you joining us this hour before you run. Is there any chance you might be able to pass this legislation this year or is it going nowhere? I don't expect this bill to be passed in this format this year. I think is a million-dollar limitation. The law that was passed in 93 with a fair number of exceptions. I think in part that came out of the fact we had our bill introduced 90 in 1993. Thank you, sir. Thank you for visiting with you Minnesota 5th District Congressman Martin Sabo joining us from Washington. Those of you on the line don't go away. We have time left to during this hour to talk a little bit more about the congressman's proposal and would love to get your your response to what he's talking about here again the long and the short of it if short of it if you're just joining us. So right now there is a Tax deduction that businesses can claim for salaries below a cap of a million dollars. Well, he would change that definition of reasonable compensation. The new definition would link of the highest paid the workers to the lowest paid workers. The spread couldn't be more than 25% Otherwise a business would lose the tax deduction for those higher salaries. The idea in part is to help reduce the gap between CEO compensation and what Louis twerkers lowest paid workers get paid and we're interested in your thoughts on the issue. Give us a call 227-6802 for 22828 William your thoughts on this issue. I think you meant 25 times rather than 25% all yes. I'm sorry. Thanks for correcting a congressman's idea and especially since he said that this isn't a Panacea or anything. It's just the to reduce the large a subsidy that we make through our Text payments and I'd like to refer to this as a part of the general economic welfare. There was a collar a while back. Said you you should remember history of these think well, I'm old enough to remember that that Franklin Roosevelt was criticized as being a traitor to his class for introducing such thing to Social Security which were posed by the very people who argue so strongly against things of this sort. It's probably true that by not allowing the very rich to be the only ones who get who prosper and in this country that of the economic stability was maintained and I think we have to in order to keep people from feeling completely bypassed and becoming say for example viola I think you have to realize it give them a chance and the the fact that people are thinking that old taxes are terrible in general when their taxes done extremely rich people who can certainly afford to contribute more to the general General Welfare. I think this is an important factor for long-term for the long-term stability of the country. Thanks for your call. Next caller is from Brooklyn Park Perry. Go ahead. I can't believe that the congressman Sable would have the nerve to proposed laws like this and let me tell you why he is not making the employee accountable for their part of the equation and let me explain what I'm talking about. For employees who have a high skill level that are in the demand of the marketplace. They will demand High compensation. They have the options to move wherever they want to they are in high demand. The people who have low skills and who have not invested in the skill levels at the marketplace is demanding should are being affected by the market demand. What about the accountability under worker to improve their skills to improve their lot in life? Second point when we have workers who are very very doing very very well and have high skill level. We have to make sure the compensation is such any Marketplace dynamics that we keep these employees. Let me give you another example receptionist in Tennessee right now receptionist can gets only 6 out $6 an hour. In today's newspaper last Sunday, there are 45 application for receptionist and the price will be somewhere around $11 to $12 an hour to get a good one. So does the wages are pegged to the market dynamics and if there is an artificial means to adjust those wages than the prices going to rise because of business people is going to pack pass it on. Currently the tax laws are written to we're being overtaxed right now. And if he wants to change that formula. Only thing that's going to happen is that these business people are entrepreneurs or CEOs will find loopholes in the law and the compensation will not be in hard dollars. It'll shift to stock options or something. What about the philosophical issue of this this Gap though the spread between the lowest and highest is that concern you at all finding that we have many students were not doing their job by exercising you asking this question who's responsible for your education. I asked a question this morning is 15 minutes ago, and they all said we are but they are not doing their part to get their education which is free. To get the skill levels to be able to compete so all of a sudden because call it the system call the individuals lack of effort and then that person is in the marketplace with no skill level whose problem. Is it is it mine where does a personal accountability come for that individual II point if you don't like what you're being paid as a worker quit and start your own business. This is a land of opportunity where immigrants there people who are opening business everyday. That's what I did. I didn't like the way I was being treated. I didn't like the wages are being paid. I started my own business now, I'm not saying that easy but life is not easy. I don't think that the government should be in the process of litigating. Or really imposing their will on to the marketplace because it only artificially props up wages. For example, nobody's nobody's going to do anything about last week. There was a union in the business that I work in they voted for the contract Mike Oster going to go up $120,000 a year for benefit not including the wages. So what do you think's going to happen to the marketplace? My prices have to go up. So what I'm saying, is that the gap between the rich and poor it has less to do with the rich enriching themselves versus a lot of people not doing their job getting the skill level to go out and make the living that they want. Thank you Perry, okay to move on to another caller from Sauk Rapids George. What's your position here on the congressman's proposal the last color issues the shareholders, I think having any say I think that's obviously a farce because all the investors basically are going into mutual funds. Does it really have any safe? Adults that have huge amounts were generally executive himself. And so that that that system cannot work. It's not working. The guy. I think one of the thing that's happened is At the same time or CEO sorry to skyrocketed business brakes have been becoming more and more the trend. So it's like you're getting both things from there getting State local competition to make sure they get all the tax incentives to locate your business. And I fix our community has the same time paying my CEOs more more money is good for everybody else know it creates new jobs at the tents to build a stronger Community because people have a job and they're making some money and social benefit from a societal tax break if they're getting I see it as this now that's 7 million dollars a year across all these companies is coming from somewhere Steven the person that says the true capitalism That money has to be coming from somewhere. The only logical place you can be coming from is a talk to productivity the workforce. And so it seems to me that the trend is that businesses are now investing more money and top Executives then they used to it isn't as a matter of moving your profits for a different areas because it has the money's got to come internally for the business itself. So is rather than see it as as as as a wage worst thing that our our our society has decided to instead of investing its profits cross. The economy is going to invest its profits in a few people and I think that the other thing I think is there's a Min I think it's it is a social issue not an economically. She was I think if it's are you any kin of a term it probably will lose but I think it has we are going on social terms and Anna even the 1st of tha code education not being caught productive. I think they're in again. There's You're assuming business productivity is the only fighters to be that Society has in place and it seems to me that that it might be that the productivity of some of our parents is at the expense of parenting productivity and education industry suffers the loss of the parenting productivity Park even know the business on his penis to be for the benefit of the business productivity. I get charged. Let's move on to rush for Minneapolis. Do you think the congressman is on to something here sir? I absolutely support disabled this on this thing and I wish you I wish I could go even further I speak I would like to address one minute that I hear spoken to. I spent my most of my life working in the advertising business and so why was Frequently frequently hearing and seeing and talking to people about the types of work. They do the idea that CEO earn their salary is probably one of the biggest mess I've ever had that I encountered in the business in almost all cases CEOs are brought in for a for the factor of prestige. What kind of prestige do they have? They usually know nothing about the business a good example is one of one of our clients was a corporation here in Minnesota manufactured batteries a we're looking for a CEO for their company and they they found a guy who graduated from Oxford and played Polo. You didn't know anything about batteries didn't know anything about the industry didn't know anything about the business, but they gave him the tops about the highest salary that any of their top Executives that were forgotten. Rosnet that if a company continue to operate like that with people in charge of don't know what they're doing. I mean they're going down the tubes fairly quickly. I would think state of Minnesota that the operate similarly. I don't think it I don't think you can point to many corporations or many major corporations that have people at the top and work their way up from from the bottom. They were brought in that were brought in at that level and usually usually as I say for the fact or Prestige pay more for executives and other than our competitors, thank you, sir. Appreciate your comments John. What do you make of a congressman's playing here? Well, I wanted to ask him about If he if he could put his bill into a global context. I mean would this affect workers say overseas and I did it hit numbers on the computer and you know it worker in the Nike Factory Thailand making four hundred bucks a year would mean that Phil Knight would only make about $10,000 a year. We should be all right by me but it's another issue. So I was just wondering what that Global contacts at all or else. I'm ninety-nine and a half percent certain this applies only to wait. Okay. Alright Perry. You're next go ahead. Please mention very briefly. The question of Eagle is one of the sources of this disparity friend and I work in the field of management consulting and I can tell you for a fact that there is a very strict rank order in the corporations that actually disrespects the lower levels the only talk about the peons down there and that kind of talk and I think the basic respect of a human being in a electric company or any organization actually is lacking. And as a result of that they have this disparity of income and that's why they tend to treat the people as cogs or machines whatever and they do not share the productivity improvements that that are going on. They don't share it fairly with labor technology and management and stockholders and Sean big dick the balance against the laboring person Caswell Perry where people the blue collar type people are looking up at the suits and and disparaging them giving them no credit for having any ability. They're just a bunch of within an organization. That is very awesome them mentality. We even have titles blue color pink color white color. And end in in the country will we claim we don't have a class distinction. It's actually getting bad. I came from the country that had these class divisions very strongly that is actually improving over the years. And since the war America has done very well in creating the middle class in minimizing is differences, and now we're sliding backwards towards creating the societies of the third world class wise in terms of class distinctions. Thanks. I appreciate it, Thank you. We have time for one more color. One more comment on Congressman sabo's plan. And then you're the you're the person what do you think observe that? I really wonder about modern American Business whether they're really interested in competition in the free enterprise system. It seems to me that there's more consolidation at Consolidation in either Monopoly or near Monopoly is more what many businesses are in for especially you can think of the banking industry recently in and in the computer business, and I also wanted to observe a friend of mine who is a very conservative person in his and who's in the medical business said that when they certified off National Health Plan on the part of of Clinton and and now business has done everything. That they were fearful of in terms of government action and I'll just hang up and listen. I'm I just don't think that modern American businesses are really terribly interested in in competition in a really free enterprise free market system. Okay. Thank you. Well, that's all the time we have unfortunately, it's a big subject and we could be here quite a long while and fortunately yeah, if you tuned in late their Congressman Sable himself had to leave a little early because of a roll call vote out and Washington, but he is once again going to try to pass the income Equity actor Bill designed to address the issue of the widening gap between CEO compensation and what lower-paid workers are getting essentially he would redefine with called reasonable compensation in the tax code right now. There's a million dollar tampon salaries. He would redefine that to link the highest paid workers with the lowest paid worker. So that the highest paid workers couldn't get more than 25 times what the lowest paid workers get and still qualify for that tax deduction Converse mancebo allows as how is Bill probably won't pass but could very well stimulate further discussion on this issue in Washington DC like to thank all of you have been participating in our discussion of this issue and will continue in just a moment. I'm Ray Suarez hear Sylvia Plath reading her poem daddy. You do not do you do not do anymore black shoe and which I have live like a foot for 30 years poor and white Billy daring to breathe. You will talk about the enduring impact of Sylvia plath's Collection Ariel on the next Talk of the Nation book club of the air from NPR news. Mr. Suarez will be along at 1 here on Minnesota Public Radio with Talk of the Nation time now for Garrison Keillor.