6 minutes past 11 today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include General Mills foundation and Dayton's Mervyn's and Target stores by Dayton Hudson Foundation celebrating 50 years of giving 5% back to the community. And good morning. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary acting glad you could join us who are Minnesota's two US senators. Now too many of you that might seem like a relatively easy question to answer but according to the latest Star Tribune kmsp-tv, Minnesota poll only 20% of the Minnesota and surveyed knew the correct answer 56% of those surveyed couldn't even one of a senator's nevermind. Both of them. Is this a cause for concern? Well, that's what we're going to talk about this shower joining us from Northfield to Steven share the chair of the political science department at Carleton College and we invite you to join our conversation as well are these poll results something that should be cause for concern as interest in Civic life Lee reached a dangerously low level or two people only remember things that actually make a difference to them and see if they have decided that the names of their US senators really don't make that much difference. Give us a call or Twin City area number is two two seven. 6002 to 76,000 in the Twin Cities outside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828. What are we to make of these poll results 20% of the Minnesotan surveyed could name both US senators 80% couldn't Steven share? What do you make of this is something that you're stewing about even as we speak I am doing a bit Gary particularly because if you look back 50 years ago in 1948 almost half of minnesotans could name both of their Senators now that was an electorate that we had much lower levels of education on average than the electric Minnesota does right now and the fact that a more educated electorate seems to know less about the political system released these aspects of the political system to me is something to worry about as you said not to have been a lot of these Mistaken, but the one in 1952 for example, 48% of minnesotans could name both the Senators and 83% could name at least one of them. What do you suppose has made that what why the big difference? Well, I think of several things. This is a piece of information that's remained constant. In other words. It's something citizens have always been able to know about since we formed the Republic what's changed? I think in the last 50 years is we've had this taken in the last 20 years or so. We've had an information explosion there so much media so much popular culture so much infotainment all the time on television on radio at cetera that I think it's easy for people to sort of be swamped by the magnitude of the messages around them and lose some perspective on what's important and what's not important information. So on the one hand we should be much better in for him because we have so much more information available, but you're arguing that perhaps We have too much information that you just can't sort it out anymore. Well, the people aren't doing a very good job of sorting it out and they're also not necessarily doing a good job of sorting out a reliable sources of information. For example survey done a few years ago indicated that about a quarter the public ranked late night comedy shows mainly the Jay Leno and David Letterman shows as important sources of political information. Now, I'm telling you that you can do better as reliable sources than Leno and Letterman is abusing as they are but that would suggest me that this is not a public that is being very careful about sorting through sources and figuring out what's important. Let me ask you this. Do you think it's important is the ability to name the two Minnesota Senators and important facet of being a good citizen. I think it's important in the following Way for their two. Types of information need to be a good citizen Wonder basic Civics information how the system operates what a veto is how many houses of Congress there are what is federalism those sorts of things and actually from what we can tell popular understanding of those matters is not really declined what has declined is current events information. Who's in charge. What are they doing? How do they relate to each other and really to be a good citizen? You need to know both the current events information and the basic structural information about the political system and what we're we're really falling down is a public is in that current events information and this would fall into that. Who is your Senator Stephen sharers Our Guest this hour he is the chair of the political science department of Carleton College in Northfield and we are taking a look this hour at the results of a new Star Tribune kmsp-tv, Minnesota poll that found that only 20% of the Minnesota and surveyed. Name both US senators 56% good name either one of them much less both of them. And so that's how I always thought it would be interesting to talk about whether or not this is something that we should be concerned about or whether it's just one of those odd bits of information that come our way the mountains of information to come our way. I'm going to get to some callers right away here, but let me ask you this how you deal with very well educated and presumably interested students. Do you suppose they could name both Senators know that you probably can't and when I asked my first-year students in the introductory class the name who their US Representative is, I would guess maybe at most 20% of the students can name the person who is there US Representative how often they'll mention of Governor or a senator in other words. This is even at an early age in America. Some of our brightest kids are not getting a message that this is important information for them to To obtain and to hold on to you think that people now we know according to this Minnesota fall at once it was done in 1952. There was a pretty high level of literacy literacy. Do you suppose somewhere in between let's say the 60s people would have done better hard to say of the 60s or probably when the part of the Great transformation began to occur because I bring up the sixties you bring up another reason why I think this may have changed which is that's their series of events in the 60s that produce the real Decline and confidence in government and a real rise and popular alienation. And I think makes it less fashionable now to be interested in government and say back in 1952 John's on the line for Minneapolis. What do you make of these poll results? I find them very very very depressing, but I'm not surprised. I was I graduated from high school in 58 and had very little education Beyond at For a large school and broadcasting but the fact is my own kids are all very well educated and have absolutely no interest in any of this and I'm sure they couldn't name maybe one of them but the fact is I think it's there seems to be a general dumbing-down in many respects despite all the education in our society and it seems like no matter what that you cannot get them ahead to express an interest in this evening and we certainly discuss politics frequently in this house and my parents aren't we didn't I think a lot of it had to do with the popular culture when I was a kid, we had we have radio and then there was some television cable eaten in my life, but we had the newspaper and I was an Avid Reader of the newspaper as well as my father and I think that has a lot to do with it. I really do when you are in getting out of high school in 1958. Could you have answered this question refers correctly? Many of the other famous people of that time and I ate that really wasn't there was more I think they was really more of it that my kids were their idea of a good evening. Maybe it would be to go rent a movie and some of the magazines they would even subscribe to like you idiot pieces, like people and things that are just another more in there more orientated to the entertainment Stars than politicians wear years ago Publications. They were more orientated. I think two political figures we know more about him because there wasn't so much out there about the pop stars Elvis Presley certainly maybe change that but before that there really wasn't all that much about, you know, your your entertainers. It was more about the political Leaders with the most popular people work everything from Billy Graham the Pope the president and nowadays. They may come up in there in the polls. But they're certainly not up where they where they were now and I'll give you will have to find sports heroes are or entertainment people tend to agree to something here up this real explosion of popular culture has I think helped the trivialize politics. We're now at the point where politicians are starting to appear in guest shots routinely on the on comedy shows on television suggesting that politics is just a game and it's it's sort of a shallow a matter as as if we were following some other set of celebrities in Hollywood. Well, in fact the steaks in Washington are much higher than that and much more significant for the lives of every citizen and this sort of trivialization coming about as result of this popular culture. I think is very much a part of the problem was the politicians would argue that given the climate which they have to operate these days. They almost have to be Try to become well-known popular figures as opposed to political figures to get any attention. Yeah, that's unfortunate. But you see that's just feeds the syndrome where one becomes known as a political figure because one appears on a comedy show is it's a sort of pardon the expression bass-ackwards. What in fact is happening. There is that you're getting your legitimacy out of being part of popular culture. But you once you do that, you are confined by the definitions of popular culture and encouraging the public to think of politics is just another silly game like some sort of a basketball game or water sports or something like that point that John raises is the issue of the of the media what role has a news coverage or lack of news coverage played in this do you suppose we seen in the last 15 years is a real change in the variety of coverage. Politics you can now find just about every level of sophistication and manipulation throughout the broadcasting band. You can find on those television and radio all sorts of scurrilous things going on that really not very not have somewhat salacious and not very well-reasoned or you can find very erudite and I guess dry a policy discussion. So the problem is for the public all that stuff gets thrown out there in a lot of the discussion of politics is at a very low level and encourages very low levels of thinking about it. And I think that's really changed in the last 20 years. It didn't used to involve that sort of bottom end of media attention that we're seeing right now in the tabloids and talk radio and it's Friday of other discussion format, Dennis. Thanks for calling in this morning before you make your point. Can you name the two US senators lines and Paul wellstone heck of a deal? Okay. No question later. Come in for results is it is very dangerous for the country. I I still think that politicians are having a big fish. So there is because what the population that were informed about the Senators, I think that you're not even informed about the activities of the Edwin Forsythe taking about u.s. Involvement. In other foreign. There's the old people say, oh, yeah. Oh, yes, we support our government. What is going on at the not just a question. They can't name the names but they have no idea what these people are doing. Blake about that particular issues that are robbed before them what you tend to get in the pool with this isn't what survey research is called Nine attitudes that his people will give you an answer to a question but they may not have thought out there answer very, well. It may not we'll be in Anchorage dependence and it could well be that if you were to call a week or two later and ask the same question, you will get exactly the opposite response. So in some ways all these public opinion polls would suggest that the public has made up their minds about varieties of things. I actually give public opinion more coherent send it actually has to get the sense that people are more allowing for the fact that they may not be totally informed that an issue are they generally more interested in issues than the than the people who are supposedly dealing with these issues like they only occasionally and when an issue effects of people's lives very broadly the way for exam Potential military action against The Rock Wood or a transformation of the Social Security System. Those would affect people's lives in a way that is more Salient then say the surface transport. I asked to speak considered in the in Congress right now, you know Road streets and bridges. So I think that it's I think that only happens occasionally really carry we're talking to shower in case you just joining us talking the shower with the Stephen Scherer the head of the political science department at Carleton College in Northfield picking through the meaning if we can try to find some meaning in the latest Star Tribune kmsp-tv, Minnesota poll that found that only 20% 20% of all the Minnesota and surveyed could name both of Minnesota US senators. And again, perhaps more revealing 56% good name either one and it's our were talking about what that means if anything and weight loss. How to get your comments on this issue give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002 276 thousand. Side the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at 1-800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828. Is this a cause for concern Florence? What do you think? Hold on. I'm I'm I'm angry cuz you you talk to people and they do have a strong opinions on issues such as welfare and yet people poop who their politicians and I I just don't understand why if they want their democracy to work that they do not see the connection between letting your Congressman know what they think on issues now, they don't even know their names. Well, I'm sorry, there's certainly not going to let them know what they they think on the issues that are important to all of us and the other thing is I'm I'm disappointed too many times in the media because I think that they do a disservice when they set up the the conflicts that maybe or maybe are not there and I think this to turns people off and that doesn't excuse them, but I think it does it make so much run away to other Things when they when they look at these issues as conflicts rather than that, they truly are involved in this process of the Democracy rather than in portraying these stories as the Democrats beating on the Republicans and vice versa. We are to spend more time perhaps talking about what the actual issue is Stephen sharer first. Let's take that second issue first again back to the news media. How much of a role does the style of coverage that is provided to the extent that these things ever get covered at all the style kind of feed into this is Gary. So let me just put a couple things together first year of this this huge volume of media coverage just a lot of it and you have a real variety of sources and very different standards of broadcasting end and the journalism going on and then you have the following Back to this been particularly evident recent decades. That's the major phenomena that the media will will really focus upon our to one is conflict and they will try and indicate it and and sort of dramatized in the way to try and get more viewers order listeners or readers and the other is Scandal and of course we know about the tent in the last couple months candle can produce all sorts of interesting viewer reactions can really catch a lot of fish with that get a bigger a bigger listenership you worship a readership. So those when you got all this media out there all the time and in fact, they have some parts that media they're essentially doing 24-hour Scandal or conflict coverage. It's not a surprise to me that a number of people look at this and say enough already. I really can't take this. I think I'll go fishing now. I don't want to miss quarter. But if I Red and Richards was quoted in the papers this morning. They did a story about her. And if I remember correctly what she was the point she was making was that given the surfeit of information. The only way you can get people interested is to come up with the salacious angle that the conflict. Otherwise, it just sounds like more of the same. Yeah and these discussions about substance. What should government do and what do we want from our government now, there's a lot of that discussion going on in politics. So I don't think we should assume that politics is vacuous Iran and isn't dealing with real principles and real substance. In fact, most people who are actively involved in politics in America where they hold elective office or involved in interest groups or movements, whatever are seriously interested in matters of principle and substance and a lot of that goes on in politics. The problem is that the media doesn't find that to be a particularly useful aspect of the political world to draw a Beeworks readers or listeners and so they will tend to be emphasized those sorts of things and you can see that just by comparing. Oheraldo is ratings with those of C-SPAN on cable television, then I think you'll see the point. The other appointed Florence made was that people just don't seem to get any can get the connection between an issue that they are concerned about and maybe even well informed on see no connection really between that and the again the people who are supposed to the politicians who are supposed to be doing something about these issues. Why do you suppose that is why I think it's because we have a Goodwill during environment right now for the average citizens trying to figure out what media source is. Can I trust and what information do I need? The problem is that they're all these different sources out there with all this different information and it's coming at you all the time and it's much more of a challenge to find the useful information. It takes more effort to get the useful information that you Play this is citizen that you think you might want and as a result of that. I think you were people are making the effort did the people in the old days back in the day when I took this pole before 1952. Do you suppose they thought more highly of politicians did they see more of a connection between what the politician was doing in their regular life or were they just better informed because they didn't have so much information bombarding them all of the above Gary. They had fewer information sources, they had radio and newspapers and people read newspapers Too Much Greater degree than they do. Now. I newspapers covered politics no more substantiv, unless salacious fashion there been studies of presidential election campaign coverage show that 50 years ago coverage in newspapers was much more about issues and less about personality in conflict and Hazard and also the public had higher support for the political system and for political institutions and believe the government was Affecting their lives in important ways. So all those things were happening and all those things have changed and that's it would take a big change. If a variety of factors like that to get such a dramatic difference in polling numbers over the last 50 years about a simple question. Like who's your Senator Mark? What do you make of that poll result, but my first one is a simple one and I think the reason the nobody knows who the Senators are is that they vote against each other on every issue that anybody cares about they cancel out their votes and so they don't make any difference. And that makes nobody care but I think I wanted to take issue with a comment made earlier by your guests. Excuse me. And that is that I'm not sure that having a high-profile in the media makes a senator or representative powerful. I just take one example Jesse Helms who never appears in the media the wheels one of the biggest sticks in the Senate and if you were to go down to North Carolina and ask people who's their man in the Senate they would all answer OJs. He's our man in the Senate. Stephen Sher. Oh well depends on what your goals are. Jesse Helms has no goals Beyond holding on to his chairperson ship of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and being an influential member with in his chamber. And certainly he he he had therefore sees no need to go on national median be a target for what he seems to be the liberal-national media. However, if you're a senator and you're looking beyond the Senate think about running for president, I think that you will want to be very well known in order to achieve that that old amateur. So I think it's a varies with the goals of the politicians it certainly true though that you don't need to be a national media darling and I were to be a powerful politician. What about the idea that that minnesotans are not that familiar with are Senators because their votes essentially cancel each other out I would think it might work just the other way that they are in a sense while I've often been accused of being kind of polarizing fee. And that the as a consequence they get more attention because rather than some some senator in the middle who's kind of doesn't been cut a real high-profile. Well, I'm actually I think the fact that they disagree is actually given them both a little more coverage or just some stories recently in the S StarTribune Pioneer Press about how how a distinct and contradictory their voting records were and if they were voting in a less contradictory way, I don't know that that story would have gotten quite the attention it has I consider this that there is a lot of conflict on issues between Paul wellstone and ride grams in the media will pick up on that because the media does like to examine and dramatized political conflict Steve your comment place. one reason I feel that a lot of people don't listen to her pay attention to politics and politicians is they don't discern the difference between the Republicans or the Democrats and and besides that they feel they don't or won't listen to what they have to say and the vast majority of people that I run across so there are only interested in the special interest groups and the vast majority of the people in the middle aren't being listened to whatsoever and Another thing they say is they just look at them and they feel that well one description you get a lot of nothing but Vermin did it surprise you though. Steve given the fact that the level of discuss that at least they would know who to be disgusted with and and I know that myself lately I've kind of walked away from the things also for the same same reasons that you used to do. They give you lip service, but you almost wonder that they go back in a backroom Disqus what they're going to do and it's okay. This is what we want to do. Okay, we'll play it like this or playing against one another but this is what we're going to do. Stephen sharer, is it possible that people 50 years ago knew their Senators better? Because the Senators themselves were doing a better job. Well, I'm very quickly because clearly if you look for example at the Senator's 50 years ago, you had that one Democrat and one Republican as well tea and Humphrey at one point and that would have part of the judgment about whether they're doing well. It seems to me is an idiot logical or an issue judgments and people are understandably going to vary about that the jobs are different now than they were fifty years ago in that you have to pay much more attention to the constituency and of wide variety of ways because you're getting a lot more communication from the constituency and letters and phone calls request for personal appearances cetera. In many ways. The schedule is much more intense and I would even say that she know that elected senators and representatives are spending. More time trying to be in touch with the public than they were 50 years ago yet oddly enough. They are perceived as being left in touch. Then they were 50 years ago. Go figure. We're talking a shower about a new Star Tribune kmsp-tv Minnesota poll that found that only 20% of the Minnesota and surveyed could identify Minnesota's two US senators only 20% and this hour were talking with Stephen Scherer political science department chair at Carleton College in Northfield about the meaning of the poll results. Also asking you to join our conversation get your comments on what those numbers mean or don't mean and I can let me give you the phone number or you might want to wait just a couple of minutes. All our lines are busy right now, and we'll get to get some more callers if there's a line for the number is 227-6001 802 +422-828-227-6004 1 800-242-2828 and we will get two more collars just a second. You see such a good deal today, but you're worried about tomorrow. I've caught in that should I buy today hours? Will it be less expensive tomorrow could be a bad thing to a special report on deflation the world turned upside down tomorrow at noon on Minnesota Public Radio Kano W FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities. That's our special feature tomorrow noon here on our midday program and day by the way over the from 1 to 2. Then we'll be talking with Chris Farrell and Arthur rolnick of the Federal Reserve Bank here in Minneapolis about deflation falling prices and how they might affect you. So listen at noon get up to speed on the issue and then join our conversation from 1 to 2 tomorrow programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Cooperative power providing electricity to Seventeen member Cooperative serving customers throughout West Central and Southern Minnesota. There is a winter weather advisory in effect for the Southern Tier of counties. In Minnesota this afternoon and a winter storm watch in effect for South Central and Southeastern Minnesota tonight tomorrow good chance for freezing rain or sleet in the Southeast this afternoon, Cloudy Skies all across the state with highs upper twenties to mid-thirties, but chance for snow across Minnesota tomorrow Twin Cities 30% chance for Light freezing rain or sleet by late this afternoon just in time probably for the commute home high temperature in the Twin Cities this afternoon in the mid-30s right now. It is in the mid-30s 35° and cloudy in the Twin Cities. We are talking this hour and midday about a pole that found at 20% only 20% of minnesotans could in fact identify Minnesota's two US senators trying to ferret out what that might mean joining us from Northfield Stephen share the chair of the political science department at Carleton College Shelly. What do you make of those poll results? well, I find it generally appalling but I do I do feel that there is an onus on the part of people especially parents to bring their children to an understanding of the political process and its importance that I went out any in anyways specially involved in things were involved to the extent that we vote my husband and I but we do discuss issues at the supper table and my daughter is 17 almost 18 knows who her senators are as even communicated with one of them on an issue that she felt strongly about and is has been looking forward to her first voting opportunity which will be are open at Oriole gubernatorial election next fall, even though I picked up the newspaper strip last couple weeks ago that had a head features on ahead of blurbs on the all the different two leading candidates in the in that race and asked my advice on how to Way out those issues. I said, well, it's it's a matter of seeing who you agree with and who you disagree with and if you have questions, I'll be happy to answer but making them aware of the process and that it is important. When are the point of wanted to add is that she'll be participating. I know that it's open to high school students across the country, but there's an activity called close up in Washington and I hadn't heard about it prior to this year. But evidently throughout the course of a year high school students from across the country show up in Washington, and then they take part in forums and in and meet with all kinds of different people from lifelong staff types to lobbyists to Senators Representatives, whoever to discuss and find out about the process and I understand that that's quite a life-changing experience for most of them right then. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for call Shelly. Your college students of Washington every year a group right is that change their lives? Do you think get them even more interested in the process? Well, usually the people who end up going have that demonstrated a large degree of interest in the political system before hand. So it's not it's not difficult for me to maintain that level of Interest amongst them but those sorts of students and this woman's daughter are very on representative of their generation at this was I think one of the interesting findings of the Star Tribune poll about the public knowledge is that the level of knowledge is particularly low amongst those people who are under the age of 35 and thickly 18 to 24 only 12% of 18-24 year-olds could name both Senators correctly. That is one in eight. And I think that's the lowest of any age group and there are a bunch of national surveys that indicate. That young people are much less attentive to and informed about current events. Then young people say a 30 years ago. When I was growing up in the good old days. Why do you suppose women young women that they scored? I think the lowest of all 9% right? Why do you suppose that would be a very interesting question and I would need to know what the young men's percentage was before we could tell if that was a meaningful statistical difference between men and women, but certainly 9% is abysmally low for a young women and I so I don't I don't want to spin out any gender explanation without additional evidence, but the in general older people did better than younger people. Well, that's right and a middle-aged man in particular did well they did that 31% And generally we do find a national surveys that levels of political information. When are higher amongst men than women and that is a problem for our political system to of course in that if women are to become really co-equal a politically they need to demonstrate comprable levels of information and participation in the political system. Susan, what do you make of these poll results? Are they are just appalling as everyone else is said but I'd like to bring. I do know who my state representative. I don't know who on the school board in my local area. I don't know who the mayor of the township is. I don't know who my state representative is. It seems to me that those are the worst because I'd like to give you an example of something that I did. This. This is appalling is a thing that you're talking about. It had great cost and that is generally don't vote if I don't know the candidates but recently in an election, I determined that I was going to vote for women judicial candidates and because I'm a feminist and I will get more women at the well, I did that I voted for someone. I didn't know and that the next week as I was reading results. I found out that I had voted in completely uncool. Woman and I had voted out an eminently qualified males jurist who have done great things for women and it was just threw cure ignorance of my part and apparently many other people's hard because they were reminding that that's in fact what happened at that people voted for women or women go to for women candidates whether they knew anything about them or not. And I think that must happen very frequently. We we really don't vote in for frequently in these local election. And the South are Susan what about that those Steven sure you would think you know, one of the arguments is that well Jade people don't care about who their senators are because it's off in Washington and it really doesn't directly affect their lives, but these local offices surely do and yet really the level of ignorance about who those people are as much higher I would think well, yes, and I want to let this woman off the hook if I can't I think a little broader perspective would help to illustrate the difficulty she faced in that last election. If you look at the Constitutional democracies of the world Western Europe other parts of the world compared to America, you will find that we vote for more offices more often than any other electoral system on Earth. In other words, we place the highest information demands upon voters have any democracy on Earth and it's not a surprise to me that there for even well-meaning voters when they walk into the into the polling place. I find themselves sadly ignorant about certain offices part of the site that I think the major part of the problem is the way we structured the electoral system itself. We have so many choices to make that we in fact invite people to cast ignorant folks. It's not a realistically structured system if you want my opinion, is that where the political? There are okay and here's another opinion for you. Then is that one of the problems that we have with the weakened political parties that if they work to provide meaningful endorsements for all these little offices even if you didn't know the candidates, well, at least you could rely on your political party to make the choice for you have bingo bingo. Hey, you just scored a big hit their reason. Let me give you let me just give you something remarkable that we know for American history that about a hundred and twenty years ago about 1880. So we say turnout was much higher in election Senate is now now this was when the electorate had far lower levels of education on average than we do now. I mean, it's just an incomparably lower. Why are all these people voting in 1880 and they're not voting in 1998 while one reason the course is it we've expanded the electorate that there was just a white male electric, but there's a deeper explanation of political. These were the currency of politics back then far more than they are now. And yes, she had a very complex electoral system, but people would find a party label in the party q and follow that through the valence and they found it a way to manage a very complex situation will nowadays the electric smoothie on party. They want to vote the person and they now all of a sudden discover these huge information demands on them cuz they've stopped using party is a guide and I think the decline of parties then in that sense in the in the public mind is a big reason, why are politics is so sour today? What do you make those poll results listening to you too and realizing that you have more answers than I do. We don't have any answers at all because I was going to raise the point that you just did about back when I was first involved in politics 1948. + 2 + 50 + 50 + 52 I had babies. So I'm 54 I was involved again, but I think that that generally it is pretty horrendous. What's what's happening and I think a lot of it is is because of what's happening in Washington is indicative of the apathy that people are feeling because of because of our leaders that's not living up to what we expect of them. And I think there's several reasons. Actually, I think people have so much conflict in their lives. They don't they just don't want to have to deal with anything more and I think that we're living in somewhat of a hedonistic Society that's you know, what to go out on the weekend and whatever is more fun than having to think about, you know, the issues that concern our nation and I just was going to mention that the previous color should know that townships don't have mayors. They have clerks and treasure and supervisors. But anyway, that's that's beside the point. You know, I think I think there's just so many things to focus on and then the politicians that do get elected aren't really up to Snuff. Is that kind of the long nights because because the horses were saying that he thought you know this whole thing with with Willie and the Clinton people are following totally into Political lines, and I have to be a Democrat who believe the women that are coming forward and I'm very disappointed in in Mister Clinton. I mean alleged Behavior, but You know, we got we've got people who were Senators I heard it. Again Steven Shearer that the politicians just aren't really worthy of a lot of attention. Now, you know that the Republic locations are are morally incompetent or morally wanting and I think that that's just the two easy an excuse to use because politicians do reflect the people who vote for them and remember HL mencken's famous quote that in a democracy the people usually get what they deserve. One thing you hear around election time, is that the negative tone that the campaigns have taken especially the negative ads in some cases are designed to keep people from voting over time. Would that play in The general level of disinterest in who are US senators would be in political science and indicated that exposure to negative advertising does change some people's views of the political system in a negative way and moves them away from the likelihood of participation. And I think if you add that sort of message at election time and you can see a lot of it, you know in the in the couple weeks before and actual election a lot of marginally interested in Affiliated voters who are potential voters start to TuneIn in the few weeks before an actual election day and it when they begin to see all the negative advertising is quite possible that that that discourages a number for them from voting and I that would be yet another reason why the way we do politics nowadays the way we cover it may move people away from being involved in it Chris. What do you make it? 20% poll result in that younger voters, I mean in in that I mean I Generation X O the 2238 early 30 year old voters have gotten a couple of the environment that they've kind of politically grown up and has led to a lack of knowledge not surely interest in in who the political leaders are in one in one way with that. There is the general dissatisfaction with politics in general but growing up essentially was saying to Ronald Reagan tells about how government is bad and Bill Clinton say that, you know, we need to do government better. I mean, I think many people have taken that a particular young people taking that message to heart and said Yeah, I government doesn't mean a whole lot to my life and look what it you know, if they're closed down tomorrow. It wouldn't matter but beyond that those that are interested are products of today's political environment. They know that if there's an issue that matters them matters to them most likely they will be contacted by an interest group that will give him an 800 number to call that will forward their message longer the proper Senator or congressman and they know that they have a postcard to fill out and it just doesn't matter whether or not they know the name because they can find it from other sources Stevens here. Now that is a very good point resident information is less important than the in for me. It's in the knowledge of how to find something out and then I think is true for a part of the electorate who are Rob or up for a part of the public who who we would expect to know these this information. They may not know what they can still act effectively in politics, but they're also a lot of people of lower education lower-income who don't know this I also don't know how to find out and that I think it's the bigger problem for the political system just about out of time. But let's get one more of a caller on here John quick, in here on this 20% figure express my point of view of why I'm apathetic real quickly Republican party rights me and I tell him I'm not interested then take my name off the list yet they continue to do. So I've written letters to senators and congressmen stressing a point of view and I get back before letter which doesn't even knowledge, you know my point of view but just gives me there's I made a donation to a campaign did not receive it a knowledgement at all from the donation. So it's like, you know, I don't count and I don't care anymore so you can comment on that and all this time. Thank you Stephen Sher. Yeah. Well think about that answer. Is that the The caller has tried a variety of different things in a participatory sense making this person or a pretty unusual individual but it's also not a surprise to me that a political campaign and political party of working as they try and do unlimited resources to mobilize people would not be that effective at the interpersonal dimensions of contact that he would want cuz that's expensive for any candidate or incumbent or party to provide and this may be an unwitting effect of the attempt to the use technology efficiently by all those political whackers that they they offend people terms of Education. Should we be doing something different so that if this polar taken 20 years from now people would score a little higher. Well, I think we need to maintain our ability to teach the basic facts about the political system in with we don't seem to have deteriorated in recent decades. According to polling on that. What we do need indicate is how to understand Quran. Advanced where to find useful information about them and also why current events are important to us as a citizen it seems to me that message really has not been widely broadcast in elementary and secondary education and if kids don't pick it up at home and only occasionally would that happen other not going to pick it up and I think that bodes ill for the future of the country so much for joining us today. I was going to talk with you. Sure Stephen sharer who is the chair of the political science department at Carleton College in Northfield discussing this hour of the Star Tribune kmsp-tv, Minnesota poll that was reported on over the weekend, but found that 20% only 20% of minnesotans could name both Minnesota US senators and let's see what's so less than half the name couldn't even name one. Thanks everybody who called in the shower will continue in just a moment. Should I had defeated it with my Sullen enjoyment of the worst that had to offer the fourth? Annual Minnesota Public Radio snowman running is on the air Friday March 28th. Need your phone to celebrate the event fax 612-290-1224 email it mail an NPR. Org with snowman in the subject line or mail it to us at Minnesota Public Radio. Insane. The deadline is March 17th. Coming up over the noon hour today second hour of our midday program. We head off to the National Press Club a live broadcast today featuring us defense secretary William Cohen die now for Garrison Keillor.