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CHRIS ROBERTS: Good morning. It's 9:04. From Minnesota Public Radio, I'm Chris Roberts. Federal investigators are blaming a crimped airbrake hose for last week's runaway train crash in St. Paul. The National Transportation Safety Board says no sabotage was involved in the Valentine's Day accident which injured nine people.

Meanwhile, freight railroads say they plan to speed up installation of special two-way end of train braking systems with all freight trains to be equipped by mid 1997. A federal grand jury has indicted 9 Twin Cities residents suspected of defrauding area banks of more than $95,000. The indictment says the accused bought a cashier's check for a small amount of money and then used it as a pattern for fake checks.

A new neighborhood newspaper debuting in the Twin Cities is another version of the wanted poster but with advertising and feature columns. The Crusader is one of 38 such papers being published in cities across the US and Canada. 23-year-old Tom who doesn't want his name used is one of the publishers. He says the newspaper is a tool to help authorities catch suspects. He says, readers are not encouraged to take the law into their own hands.

TOM: We're not looking for a vigilante response. In the paper, when it comes out, you'll see that there'll be a picture and a description of the fugitives and the missing children. And underneath the picture will be the specific person or organization that you're supposed to contact. So if you see these people, just call.

CHRIS ROBERTS: The publishers say the local FBI and other law enforcement leaders have endorsed the newspaper. A snow advisory exists in Northeastern Minnesota today into the early evening hours. Light rain, freezing rain, and snow in the North, changing to all snow, but the snow will be ending in the Northwest by noon. In Duluth right now, freezing drizzle and 32 degrees. And in the Twin Cities, cloudy and 35. That's news, I'm Chris Roberts.

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RACHEL REABE: Welcome to a special Main Street radio broadcast live from the northern Minnesota town of Crosby. Minnesota Public Radio's Main Street radio is supported by a major grant from the Blandin Foundation, strengthening rural Minnesota's communities through grant making leadership training and conferences. I'm Rachel Reabe. And we are delighted to be broadcasting from the cafeteria of the Crosby-Ironton High School.

It's the perfect setting for a discussion on school choice. 10 years ago, Minnesota broke new ground by passing laws that allowed students and parents to choose what kind of school setting works best for them. These days, kids don't automatically have to attend the school that's closest. They have a wide variety of options and they're taking advantage of them.

This year, almost 20% of Minnesota students are opting for something other than their traditional school setting. Joining us to talk about school choice this morning are two men very much involved in education-- Bob Gross is Superintendent of Schools in nearby Brainerd, and Doug Thomas is a School Board Member in Le Sueur in Southern Minnesota, and also works for the Center for School Change. Welcome to both of you this morning.

DOUG THOMAS: Thank you.

BOB GROSS: Thank you.

RACHEL REABE: It's a whole different world in public education than it was when I went to school or when you went to school. What kind of impact do you see this wide range of school choice having? Just in brief. What kind of impact Bob Gross?

BOB GROSS: Well, I think that what we have seen is really two things. One with the Open Enrollment Program. Certainly, a lot more parents have taken advantage of that because of the convenience. They wind up working in one city and would like their children to go to school in that city where they work. And so there's a real major issue of convenience. And it's resulted in a lot of people going one direction or another.

And then the other with the post-secondary option program, I use Brainerd as an example, and each community, of course, will differ a bit. There, the impact has been one of-- that's been very interesting because the more rigor we have found that we put into our senior high school because that's basically what we've been told, is that the schools aren't rigorous enough. And so therefore, we need to have the post-secondary option where these people can choose to go to college.

And we have found the more rigor that you put in and you want kids to take the advanced placement programs with national examinations at the end the more kids will skirt around it and go to try to find an area and where that rigor isn't assessed like it is in an advanced placement program.

RACHEL REABE: Doug Thomas, what do you see the impact of school choice being?

DOUG THOMAS: Well, when I got on the school board back in 1987, I got on there because I thought we as school board members could create opportunities for our students. And I really think that that's what all of the options have created in the last 10 years is more opportunities for kids. I never saw that as a bad thing. And in fact, our school board and Lisa Henderson has really treated this as an opportunity all the way along.

We've never discouraged students from going post-secondary options and we're not a large district. We have 1,500 students. It certainly has assisted a number of students who are involved in second chance programs or students who just didn't fit into traditional schooling. I think it's just been a great opportunity of the way along.

RACHEL REABE: Listeners, we're going to be taking your calls this morning. Before we do that, we want to take a close look at the Crosby School District. The reason that we are broadcasting live from Crosby today is because this is a rural district that has many students exercising their right of choice. With me this morning is Superintendent Bill McKinnon. Mr. McKinnon, how many of the students are no longer with us because they are someplace else under Minnesota's school choice?

BILL MCKINNON: The crowds Barrington schools definitely have been impacted on school choice. What we currently have, and these are rough numbers, but they're fairly close. Homeschooling, we have around 46 students that are home-schooled. We have 36 students that are going to their selection of a private school. We have 71 students that are open enrolled, we have 70 students that are currently at the Emery Charter School.

So when you add all those numbers up, we're looking at around 223 students. Plus this year we have 21 students that are going post-secondary enrollment. And they are all going to Brandon Community College. So when you add those numbers up, we're looking at 200 and some odd students out of a school age population of around 1,600 students. So that definitely has an impact of about 12% to 13%.

RACHEL REABE: Small rural districts are having a difficult time making ends meet the way it is. When you put this on top of it, when you're trying to hold on to your enrollment here and you're trying to follow Minnesota's many educational mandates of things you have to offer and then you lose that much in state aid of the 13% of the students that are no longer with you, how do you cope? How do you get by?

BILL MCKINNON: Well, first, when you take a look at small rural districts, we are not a small rural district. We are probably considered a large rural district. That we have 1,600 students. We're in the top 30% of the schools statewide as far as population. As far as how do we take a look at that? The enrollments for school choice have not increased significantly for us, except for in the Charter School area where Emily came in what, two or three years ago and their numbers of 71, obviously, affected us as far as at the elementary level.

We're assuming that those students will be coming in because it's a K-6 program. They will be coming into our junior and senior highs later on down the road. But as far as dollars, to give you an idea as far as dollars, we're looking at around $700,000 to $750,000 that are leaving our school district as it relates to school choice. So does it have an impact? Yes, it does.

RACHEL REABE: What does that mean? We have teachers that are laid off or there are classes that could be offered that are not offered here anymore.

BILL MCKINNON: Historically, I'm not sure. I would believe that our staff to student ratios are higher than they would have been probably 5 to 10 years ago. So yes, we have curtailed some of the program growth. But I think we have somewhat plateaued at this point in time. We are a little bit concerned about the post-secondary for next year. And that we're looking at probably a significant increase up to maybe 40 to 50 students going over to Brainerd Community College. That concerns us greatly.

If that happens, then we have to take a look at our numbers and student-teacher ratios and dollars and whatever. And there may be a possibility that we may be looking at a slight decrease in some of the programs.

RACHEL REABE: Our, phone lines are open for your calls this morning. You can talk to us by calling 227-6000 in the Twin Cities. If you're outside the metro area, please call us at 1-800-242-2828. And again, we're broadcasting live from the Crosby-Ironton cafeteria. It is relatively quiet in here today. Although we do have some classes of very quiet students listening to us. Tonight, this place will be pandemonium because the Crosby-Ironton Rangers are going to be playing basketball tonight. And that is always a sold out crowd.

I'm told this is one of the only places in the world, perhaps, where they sell reserved seats for high school basketball.

BILL MCKINNON: We do sell reserved seats for high school basketball.

RACHEL REABE: So tonight it'll be cooking here. Let's turn our attention to school choice. Doug Thomas, when you listen to Bill McKinnon talk about 13% of the students gone and concerns about how do we keep things going here, how do we keep a good viable educational program for the students that remain here, what's the answer?

DOUG THOMAS: Well, the public has obviously spoken around the state. There are about 19% of our students statewide now choosing their programs. 76% of the public now supports school choice. And I think there are going to be pockets of particularly strong interest in school choice just because of a variety of different options available.

The locale teachers starting charter schools, those kinds of things. But my answer to the question of what do you do budget-wise and what do you do as far as the whole effect on the local district is we need to push the whole idea of redesign and reallocate. And I think the public has been asking this for a long time. Has been wanting some sort of redesign of public education.

We have Governor Carlson's proposal to create a voucher program. I think the whole charter school movement, the number of options we have in Minnesota, the interest around the country nationally for school choice is being pushed by the public. I think the public has spoken. And if you look at the numbers of kids who are involved in school choice now in Minnesota, it's well over 100,000 students out of some 800,000 total.

RACHEL REABE: Is there a concern, though, of gutting the current public education system that even if we have 19% opting for school choice, 80% of the students still go where they would have gone 10 years ago or 15 years ago. What happens to the system that's in place?

DOUG THOMAS: Absolutely. That's going to be a concern. I think we're going to go through a fairly painful stretch during this redesign and reallocation. But in almost every other sector of public and private service, there comes a point when you go to the employees and you go to the people who are part of the institution and you say to those people, hey, folks. Some of the people aren't buying here anymore.

And we've got to do something about that. And so you either improve your program in a variety of different ways or you spend your money differently. And in this case, it's probably going to require both.

BOB GROSS: I am interested in intellectual honesty here, though. You see this is-- one of my concerns with the Choice Program has been that we've done it exactly the opposite way from which we should have done it. Most people would take a look at these programs and say before we go about offering everybody choice, maybe we ought to put standards in place first.

And let's put some standards in place. And so then as parents, you choose whichever program you want, whether it's post-secondary open enrollment, charter school, home-school, whatever. But at the end, when it comes time for accountability when you get that high school diploma, there will be a standard all of us will meet.

And so let's put the standard in place first. Because so often, we get compared. A lot of this discussion started because we felt that the European schools were simply blasting us in terms of test scores. And when you take a look at a lot of those models over there, that's what they do. At the end, you take the German school as an example. You can choose whichever gymnasium you want to attend in high school.

But at the end, it doesn't make any difference which one you chose. There will be an Abitur exam you're going to take. And that way, we build in accountability. And so why don't we do that? First set the standard, and then we're going to know that indeed, this issue about people wanting more academic rigor from the schools and wanting to teach their kids how to read and write, we'll at the end, which one of us does it the best.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone lines are open this morning. The number outside the Twin Cities, 1-800-242-2828. If you'd like to join our discussion, you're listening in the Twin Cities, call us at 227-6000. We have Matt from Minneapolis on the line. Good morning. Go ahead with your question, please.

AUDIENCE: --responding. Are you still there?

RACHEL REABE: Yes, good morning. Yes, go ahead please.

AUDIENCE: Can you hear me?

RACHEL REABE: Yes, go ahead with your question.

AUDIENCE: OK, I am-- I am curious on how teachers are responding to-- there's some strange echo going on-- how teachers are responding to the need to compete. And do you have the ability to let people go like a business does if someone doesn't meet the challenges?

RACHEL REABE: Good question, Matt. So how are the teachers reacting? And this is something brand new. Teachers that have taught for 20, 30 years suddenly are put in a position they've never been in before. Bob Gross, why don't you answer first?

BOB GROSS: OK, I think that was part of my other issue with the choice issue is that in terms of the honesty is that people need to understand that when most of these programs have come about they said because the public schools aren't doing the job. Listen, the teachers are doing a tremendous job out here. They're on the front lines. They've got a very, very difficult assignment.

And so I think that when we go about talking about choice programs, we could bring it about different way other than to say, you people, haven't been doing a good job so we need to put something else in place. And so I think the teachers, for the most part, frankly have responded very favorably. They don't like being put in this position of being accused of not doing a good job. None of us like that, you know. And because there is this kind of attitude that we can bludgeon people to greatness. We can't do that kind of thing, you know.

And so when you start out in any kind of a choice program saying we need choice because you people haven't been doing the job, I think they've held up remarkably well. And in many places, like in charter schools and whatever else, in fact, have initiated change and have gone toward setting up different models and things of this nature. And so I think given the blasted criticism they have taken from the politicians and very often from the media, I'm very impressed with, frankly, the way the public school teachers have handled this whole choice issue.

RACHEL REABE: Bob Gross, the superintendent of schools in Brainerd. My other guest this morning Duck Thomas who is a school board member in Le Sueur and works with the Center for School Change. Our phone numbers again 1-800-242-2828 from outstate Minnesota and 227-6000 in the Twin Cities. We have Craig on his car phone now on the line. Craig, go ahead with your question, please.

AUDIENCE: I sit in the dimension of choice within the public school system. I think one of the reasons that the public schools are suffering in the competition, if you will, is because of the tenure system that allows teachers to burn out and hang on to a job. I'm wondering what the guests feel about the idea of allowing, I guess, what you might even consider like a peremptory challenge to say, you can't put my kid in with that teacher.

We obviously can't have every parent saying-- picking exactly the teacher they do want. But if they could avoid bad teacher, that would be sort of a self-selecting evaluation system. And I'm wondering what the guests think about that specifically and the tenure system as relates to this whole subject.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for your question. And that was something that was brought up by what you said as well. If we compare education to a business as you said in your opening remarks, Duck, that if you don't like it here, you have a choice to go someplace else just like you do in the real world. What happens though, when you have a staff of teachers that are in a union, that are protected, that it's very difficult to say, Mr. Smith, you're not zippy enough, we're losing him to the community college. I'm sorry. Don't come back next year.

DUCK THOMAS: When I was teaching, that was one of the things that bothered me the most was being part of a staff and not having the control to decide and really force the quality of the program. Our district and our superintendent and I were part of a resolution of the Minnesota School Boards Association to support the site-based management law that was introduced this year, sending money directly to the sites, and at the same time, changing the [INAUDIBLE] laws which support tenure and so on.

I think that we're going to have to, in this sort of growing stage of school choice, going to have to deal with that issue. And I talk to a lot of teachers in schools all over the southern half of the state, and particularly the young teachers are very upset about that part of teaching and the education system.

RACHEL REABE: Is this what you mean by this could be the painful process?

DUCK THOMAS: Absolutely. We're going to have to go through that stage when we're going to have to say goodbye to some people who we think aren't doing the job. But it's going to have to be the teachers who make that happen. One of the things that's exciting about the charter schools is that the teachers themselves are in charge of running the instructional program. And have a say on who teaches, and who doesn't, and what you teach, and so on.

RACHEL REABE: But at this point in Minnesota, we have 18 charter schools with about 1,800 students. So the vast majority are still in a classroom with public school teachers that belong to a teacher organization. When we talk about this, Bob Gross, do you just think of yourself in endless arbitration sessions?

BOB GROSS: Well, it was a twofold question there too. And in our school, the parents do get their choice which building they want send their kids. And if they have a preference for a teacher, we acknowledge that. And so I think many school districts are doing that around the state. Regarding the tenure issue, I think I have to take some of that fault as an administrator. I think there's a process set up. If we're doing evaluations of teachers, the first three years are probationary.

And so that if you find that you simply can't work with this teacher anymore. You can even say goodbye, you know. And so they have done that in terms of the probationary period. With the tenure system, basically, it is set up so that as an administrator, if I want to evaluate and I find some deficiencies, there's a process that can be followed. And I think we have to, as administrators, take as much blame sometimes for that tenure system not work as we do with the teachers.

The other thing with the teachers is that they are real concerned. They view themselves as professionals. And they're concerned. I think about local board, who's going to be doing the evaluating. And that issue about if you take a look at the medical model or whatever, it's their peers that wind up evaluating them. And so I think with the teachers and-- but they need to take the initiative on this is to say, listen, we'll come forward with a model that allows our peers to evaluate us and then subject ourselves to peer evaluation that has some teeth in it.

And so yes, I think, one, if you don't work the process right, Rachel, one would find oneself in endless arbitration cases on this issue. But I also understand it from the teacher's perspective as to who's going to evaluate me. Am I in-- frankly, am I going to be judged if I'm a risk taker, you know, and I wind up wanting to make some changes in my classroom. And somebody gets upset with me.

Because as a superintendent, I have to tell you that I get more criticism of the people that I consider to be the good teachers than I do the teachers that I consider to be the poor ones. And you know, and that's being very straightforward with this. There people who take some risks, who on occasion make mistakes, who challenge kids more, make more demands of them in terms of homework. And so there's a great concern about, you know, who is it that's going to be doing the evaluating and under what terms do I get evaluated.

RACHEL REABE: I'm Rachel Reabe. You're listening to Midmorning on Minnesota Public Radio. Our phone lines are open today. Call us and join this discussion. If you're in the Twin Cities, 227-6000.

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If you're outside the Twin Cities area, call us at 1-800-242-2828. Leif Enger is in the audience with our students. And we have a question, if he doesn't have to rush to class.

LEIF ENGER: Rachel, I'm talking with Abe [INAUDIBLE]. He is a senior. He's in the advanced placement program here. And he's actually here because of open enrollment. He actually lives over in the Pequot Lake School district. And he comes here to see through the open enrollment program. He's got a comment for our panel.

AUDIENCE: I think that we need the choices. But for in the way of post-secondary option and things, I think, it has to be a stricter guidelines to get in because right now pretty much anybody can get in who's on the B honor roll. So that will get the more mature students who are ready to go to college and want to go there for the right reasons.

RACHEL REABE: Abe, you're an advanced placement student. What advanced placement class do you take at Crosby?

AUDIENCE: I have-- I have English, and history, and I also have calculus.

RACHEL REABE: So you have a full complement of advanced placement classes.

AUDIENCE: Right.

RACHEL REABE: There has been concern that when you lose students through post-secondary enrollment option, that a district like Crosby may not have enough students to fill an advanced placement class. Is that a concern of yours?

AUDIENCE: Not being a senior, but for the rest of Crosby, yes, it is. I think we need the AP classes to challenge the students who could take them. It should be an option for them.

RACHEL REABE: Good. Thanks for your question. We have Betty from Duluth on the phone. Please go ahead with your call now.

AUDIENCE: I would like to endorse concern for setting standards. It seems to me that is absolutely critical. Also I think we need to think about the inclusive issue. In other words, public schools take students with a vast variety of needs and handicaps. Now private schools simply don't because they will tell parents they don't have the staff, they don't have the facilities to deal with that.

I think there is a case to be made for an argument that says, the reason private schools may show better results, and I emphasize may, because the playing field certainly isn't level. But these are handpicked students who come from homes where parents have demonstrated support, interest, and assistance in what their children do. That, unfortunately, is not the average public school student. So--

RACHEL REABE: And so if you take--

AUDIENCE: --you have about those issues very carefully before we open the floodgates and let everyone run off without any concern for standards or inclusivity.

RACHEL REABE: And so what Betty's saying is that if we have 20% of the students in Minnesota exercising school choice, that perhaps a case could be made that's the cream of the crop. Once they go, how do we mainstream?

DUCK THOMAS: Well, what we're talking about here is public school choice. So we're not really talking about private school. And all of the public school choice programs in Minnesota have requirements requiring students to-- the schools to accept students. The second part of it-- of that is that, I think, we, in Minnesota, as we provide more and more opportunities, we're going to see a lot more choices grow out of this.

So I think we're going to continue to have more opportunities. And I believe that the public is going to continue to demand more. As far as standards are concerned, no one in the country has been able to agree on any standards yet. So if we wait for standards to be set, and you know what the graduation rule process has been like in Minnesota. We spent nearly $20 million on it up to this point. If we wait for that, we're never going to have school choice anywhere.

RACHEL REABE: So what does that mean to you, Bob Gross? We throw out the graduation standards and just forge on with school choice?

BOB GROSS: Well, that really says something about us as a society in terms, and this is what I talked about, in terms of the intellectual honesty to begin with. One of the-- why can't we agree on standards? You know, somebody needs to begin taking this bull by the horn and make some decisions and go with it. Particularly, when you continue-- unless we just change our position on this and simply say, listen, we want people to have choice, and we'll assume things will work out all right.

But when we continue coming at it from the other perspective, which is the public schools aren't doing the job. And then it seems to me we have an obligation to say, and how aren't we doing a job? In comparison to what? What model are you using that says that we're not doing the job? And so I'm saying, if these folks that are criticizing us like this, it seems to me that if they want to be bold enough to level this kind of criticism, we ought to be bold enough to be able to come up with some kind of standards.

And you know, I simply will not accept that we can't come up with standards. We haven't worked at it hard enough. We could start with simple things. An example, we always try to make this thing so complex. We could start out by saying, there will be entrance requirements for college. That in itself will bring the standards up amazingly. 60% of the colleges right now in this country don't have any entrance requirements. Kids can walk in there with a-- regardless of how well they did in high school and without a high school diploma.

We could begin having employers asking for it. I think about the politicians in the media, working on the employers as hard as they worked on the voucher system and saying, whenever a kid comes along and asks for a job, ask him for his grade report and ask him for his attendance report. Because you tell us you're interested in dependability and reliability, there isn't any better test. And have you been in school every day? That would give us some indication as to whether you're dependable.

RACHEL REABE: So the burden isn't totally on the public school system. We need all segments of society then to work together to set this issue of standards.

BOB GROSS: Absolutely, if we're serious about it. You know, and if we're not, then I'm talking about honesty again. You see this is what happened with the post-secondary program, post-secondary enrollment options. They said, we need to put the program in place for rigor. Well, if they start taking a look at that, that's not what's happening around this state.

The kids aren't going after it for rigor. They're going after it for convenience or to avoid rigor. And so all I want is honesty. Let the legislators say, we want choice and we don't necessarily care whether there are any standards in place or not because the market will work it out. And I'm simply not willing to accept that. I want us to all work together and get some standards in place.

DUCK THOMAS: Rachel, I think that more community and parent involvement will definitely bring up the standards. And one of the great things about the choice programs around the state is it's we're getting a lot more parent and community involvement. They're actively making choices along with their parents. And I think that's really important.

RACHEL REABE: We have Marlene from Minneapolis on the phone. Marlene, why don't you go ahead with your question?

AUDIENCE: I have a question for the two panelists here. Now that the choice word is the new fashion in the education boutique, what I'm not hearing is any relationship to fiscal responsibility or fiscal accountability. We're spending more money in the Minnesota schools than we ever have before.

We have agreed that our standards are not going up higher. I still don't hear how choice is going to be more efficient, how we're going to have a reduction in redundant classes, streamlining of the curriculum, or an increased academic rigor coming out of this new boutique. Can you both comment on that, please?

DUCK THOMAS: Yeah, we have a--

RACHEL REABE: We'll start with Duck Thomas.

DUCK THOMAS: We have a responsibility to be-- to fiscally balance the budgets in our district. So what you're talking about is really redirecting the funds and reallocating. So I think that part of it is going to come. It's a matter of how you spend that money. And in our district, we've chosen to spend that money in a variety of different ways.

We support post-secondary option programs. We have the charter school in our district. So that part of it is assumed. It's just a matter of how you spend that money and who you allow to help make the decisions on how to spend that money. And I think parents and kids should be able to help make that decision.

BOB GROSS: Well, this is the issue--

RACHEL REABE: Bob Gross.

BOB GROSS: --unless you have standards, it's very, very difficult to assess exactly as the lady says. And the other thing is more and more money is going to the public schools. And this is the other piece that we never finished a sentence and then say, but the reason more and more money has gone to the public schools is, if you look over that at the last 10 years, it's because of the increased costs of special education. We've picked up 0 to 5 special education youngsters that we never had.

We've got health and safety issues. And Brainerd alone as an example, we're sprinkling buildings next year for $700,000 which is more than our employee raises. You see, those are health and safety issues frankly, that we wouldn't have done except for these codes that are in place. The comparable worth issue, and all of these things may be very, very good. But they haven't gone into reading and writing these programs.

And in addition, more kids coming into the school. And so it seems to me when the politicians again talk about all of this money we've thrown at public education, we need to finish the sentence, and here's what we've thrown it at. You see, so we need to inform the public on this issue about where has the money gone. It hasn't gone into employee salaries and into reading and writing. The vast majority of it has gone into these issues that I just listed.

RACHEL REABE: Leif Enger, we have another question in our audience.

LEIF ENGER: Lucas-- Lucas May has arrived and he's from Deerwood. He is also a senior. He prefers to go here. He says to Crosby-Ironton High School as long as the tough classes are offered. This is a fellow who has watched quite a few of his classmates go off to BCC over in Brainerd. And he says that post-secondary enrollment can be hurtful to his high school. Go ahead, Lucas.

AUDIENCE: OK, like last year, they were thinking about cutting back on some of our advanced placement classes. So me and a few other students were talking of going to BCC. And we talked to the teachers and the principals about this, and we found out a way to keep our classes at this school. So I think the open enrollment is good when it can be used to keep the schools competitive and when-- if there's special needs for a student. But I think if somebody is just upset with the rules or something in their school, then that's not a good reason to go open enroll in another place.

RACHEL REABE: Lucas, would you agree that most of the students are attending college because the classes at the high school are not rigorous enough or are there other reasons?

AUDIENCE: I think that there are other reasons.

RACHEL REABE: So it's not for academic rigor?

AUDIENCE: Well, there are a few who go for academic reasons. But I know many who just go for reasons like freedom and stuff like that.

RACHEL REABE: Which for a high school student, that's a considerable issue, isn't it?

AUDIENCE: Yes, it is.

RACHEL REABE: We have a caller on the line. Mick from Minneapolis, go ahead with your call, please.

AUDIENCE: Yeah, I was wondering if you're going to do away with job security, how do you ensure-- I suppose, the easy answer would be to pay more, but nobody wants to, to ensure that you get energetic, capable people who have a lot of other options. How do you attract them? How do you attract them as new teachers into a school district, if you're going to do away with job security? I'll hang up and listen.

BOB GROSS: Well, I think that we can continue making public education attractive enough so that we'll get enough people in. At least, in the short run, it looks like we've got enough people coming through to want to express an interest in teaching and that we can hire very, very capable people yet. And there is that concern. I think we're seeing a little bit of it with the superintendency.

When they took tenure away from superintendency, there's a lot more turnover in it now. We have fewer principals that want to start going into the superintendency. We have fewer people who want to come into the state because of that loss of tenure. And I suspect there will be a little bit of that with teachers as well. I think the only way we assure it though, is that we have to just be responsible as administrators and as school boards in terms of how we handle our people when they come in.

And if we allow something like witch hunts to take place in schools, it won't take long and the people won't want to be choosing our profession. I already fear that they're not choosing our profession because of the blasting public education is taking, that it is not as respected as it used to be and so therefore I'm going to choose another career.

I think that that's happening to some degree already in terms of our most talented graduates. You know, I tried to do that every year to go around a little bit and get a little feel as to what careers they're picking. And you know, particularly, to ask the question of our most talented graduates, are you thinking about going into teaching, and generally the answer is no. And so I think we have to be concerned about that.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone lines are open for your phone calls this morning. The number 227-6000 in the Twin Cities. 1-800-242-2828 in outstate Minnesota. I'm Rachel Reabe. You're listening to Midmorning on Minnesota Public Radio. We're under a snow advisory in Northeastern Minnesota until early evening. The roads are slippery in Crosby and almost every place north of us.

Across the state, we're looking at occasional light rain and drizzle changing to snow in the north, highs in the 30s. Right now, in the Twin Cities, it is 33 degrees and light rain up here. Twin Cities a little bit warmer, 35 degrees. We have a caller on the line from Rochester. Charlotte, go ahead with your question, please?

AUDIENCE: Yes, I guess, I can hardly contain myself. For 13 years nearly, our children have had the most outstanding education here in the Rochester public schools. And I just can't believe that our system here is just so far beyond any other school district in this United States, I guess. I've written something here because I get so nervous.

I say that our district continues to set realistic but challenging academic goals. Our children have thrived in a system where they've always been encouraged to learn and strive to be the best they can be. The public school environment has been one of unqualified acceptance and recognition of the unique contribution made by each child.

I have never been denied access to teachers, support staff, principals, or administrators. And I would invite everyone to spend time at their local schools to see how successfully this complex system operates. Kids from many foreign countries and here representing numerous ethnic groups in 45 home based languages, just here in Rochester, strives to serve our children's needs. I'm just sick of our--

RACHEL REABE: Hurts when you hear people criticize public schools. It hurts when you hear the criticism of public schools, obviously.

AUDIENCE: Well, I--

RACHEL REABE: How--

AUDIENCE: I think it's popular, very popular, these days to be negative. It's an excuse by many caretakers of children to not take equal responsibility for their children's learning. We don't feel that our kids' education ends when they walk home in the door at 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

And I believe that if all society gave the same support to children as our schools do, when you consider the number of hours our kids spend at school, I believe we'd have an incredibly improved society. And I won't allow, at least, from my point of view to allow teachers to be beat up unnecessarily. I believe there's always room for improvement as there are in all segments of society. But I think this negativity is going to bring us all down.

And you folks had two-- a great guy on one day and he's written-- coauthored a book called The Manufactured Crisis and it's called the Myths, Fraud and The Attack on America's Public Schools. I think it's a super important book. And it's called a crucial antidote to the recklessness of the right wing voucher advocates.

RACHEL REABE: Charlotte, let's let our guests respond to what you've said so far. Duck Thomas, why don't you start?

DUCK THOMAS: Well, I couldn't agree more that our public education system is doing a great job. We have a lot of great teachers out there. And as she said, there's room for improvement. Bringing some competition within the system is, to me, a certain way to gain some improvement.

The student that just spoke here was great testimony to that. They have done some things here to adjust to the choices available. They have done some things better here. I think it's a great example. And again, I'm not much of a supporter of vouchers. I like the idea that there's a private system. I like the idea that there's a public system. I also like the idea that of having some competition within the public system. I think it's great.

RACHEL REABE: Bob Gross, do you feel this attack on public schools? You've been in education for years. You've been a superintendent of schools in Brainerd for years and years. Is this as bad as you've seen it?

BOB GROSS: Oh, sure. I think it's definitely as bad as I've seen it. And I suspect much of it comes about as a result of 75% to 80% of the people not having kids in school. We don't receive nearly as much criticism from the parents. I think most of us who wind up doing parent surveys and asking the parents how they feel about the education of their children respond very favorably. But you've got a whole sector of the population, again, we've got fewer and fewer people with kids in school, so they get their information from elsewhere. And so we get this onslaught of criticism. And so I think what the lady raises is very true.

RACHEL REABE: We have Lou-Ann from Minneapolis on the phones now. Please go ahead with your question.

AUDIENCE: Hi, rather than my question my comment is that I know in district 281, I live in New Hope, that over the last year or so, we've had a huge controversy because our schools are in desperate need of repair. They're talking about increases for the teachers in wages. And these are legitimate concerns.

But at the same time, we've recently built in 281 two huge very expensive football stadiums. And I think this is an issue that's difficult for the taxpayers as they come up again on February 28 with another referendum for a tax increase. This is difficult for people to understand. This kind of waste, if they can't have the appropriate kind of spending, what are we to feel as taxpayers. And I'll hang up and listen.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for your question.

DUCK THOMAS: Well, we've certainly got to get our priorities in line when it comes to athletics. This ought to stir up the phone lines. I've been promoting for a long time that we move athletics to community education so that we can locally levy for it and stop taking it out of our general fund. The priority of athletics over academics is just absurd in this state and across the country. But that's what the public wants also. I mean, it's one of the few calls that I get as a school board member are often concerning athletics which I wish people would call me about math and science.

RACHEL REABE: Bob Gross.

BOB GROSS: I certainly agree with Mr. Thomas here. I think at the most calls I get as a superintendent in terms of the negative stuff aside from school closings with the weather related are the calls regarding athletics. And again, the public wants it though. I mean, we see daily sports pages dedicated to the high school kids.

We don't do that for academics. It's obvious that the media has figured out what it is that the public wants. And so the issue the lady raised is I don't know how we turn the corner on that because as long as we have athletics in the public schools, my guess is it's going to be very, very difficult because there is a lot of enthusiasm.

Take a look at what's happening with the Mighty Ducks legislation. The legislature appropriating $250,000 to some communities to build hockey arenas. We're not seeing that kind of thing to build k-12 educational facilities. And so I think it is an indication it's statewide. There's a real public thirst for athletic programs, and many of them are doing a very, very great job, of course, in terms they're giving kids a wonderful opportunity. But certainly, the balance is such that it's going to be difficult to bring it back to focus.

RACHEL REABE: This Mainstreet radio broadcast is coming live to you from the cafeteria at the Crosby-Ironton High School. My guests this morning Duck Thomas, who is a school board member in Le Sueur in Southern Minnesota and works for the Center for School Change, and Bob Gross, who is the superintendent of schools in nearby Brainerd.

Our topic this morning is school choice. You can join the conversation by calling us at 1-800-242-2828, if you're in outstate Minnesota, or 227-6000, if you're in the Twin Cities. We have Cindy from Minneapolis on the line with us now. Cindy, go ahead with your question please.

AUDIENCE: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I was just listening to all of this, and it occurs to me over and over again that the children who succeed are the ones that the parents that want them to and that are involved. I'm a parent of three children from the ages of 6 to 14, and I'm constantly astounded at how few people show up for orientations, how few people show up for our teachers conferences.

I have in my household-- I'm a single parent as well, so I know very well how difficult it is. But I still think that you can add all the programs and throw all the money that you want to at the system, but without the parents giving their attention to it, it's just not going to happen. Anyway--

RACHEL REABE: Comments.

DUCK THOMAS: She's absolutely right. And I believe one of the ways that we've involved parents is offering them choices. In Minneapolis, for example, you have several choices of the kind of elementary schools your children can go to. Just that involvement alone in initial decision is important. But no question about it, ongoing parent involvement is the absolute key to success for students.

BOB GROSS: Yes, and it doesn't even have to be parent involvement necessarily with the schools, although that's really desirable. But parents to be involved with their children. Reading 15 minutes a day from the time of birth to your children. Just taking 15 minutes a side so you instill that value of reading with children. They'll come to school with a love of learning.

And we'll find that we'll make a tremendous difference in the lives of youngsters and their success in school. And so sometimes parents feel-- sometimes parents feel like they can't get to the school. They're too busy and whatever. Well, if you can't do, that can be understandable. But read 15 minutes a day, start at birth, and you're going to see remarkable results.

RACHEL REABE: And I can see that school choice having options that necessitate parents getting involved could be a good thing. In 1959, when I went to Ridge View Elementary School, there were no choices. I lived in that neighborhood, that's the school I went to. It didn't involve anything on my parent's part. If on the other hand, I could have gone to any elementary school, or gone to a magnet school, or gone to a charter school, there would have been more discussion, I'm sure, about education. So I see that it can engender this kind of discussion.

BOB GROSS: Absolutely. And let's start-- when we talk about school choice, let's talk about it positively. And not start out the line the public school teachers aren't doing the job and so they need competition, and so we've got to set up something else to do that. Because immediately, you put people on the defensive as opposed to saying, we've got a very diverse society and choice makes more sense now than it may have when we were all really homogenized, you know.

And so let's set up different ways of educating kids. But let's not start out by blasting the very people who are on the front lines, who are in the trenches, who've done a tremendous job against very difficult odds. And so that has been my-- and also, I might add, when we're down testifying in front of the legislature, one of the reasons I think you find so few superintendents down there testifying on some of these issues, when you raise issues, when we put school choice in, there are things that need fixing.

As an example, I don't want the post-secondary option program eliminated. I just want it to be fixed after the years of experience we've had with it. And that's what we testify for. But we immediately get accused of being anti-choice, anti-change, being labeled a traditionalist, as if that is a bad word. And so I just ask for again some honesty on part of people as to why it is that we're doing some of these things.

RACHEL REABE: And you really are a lone voice, aren't you?

BOB GROSS: Well, I feel that way because people are very concerned about their careers. And when the legislature passes something, of course, they want to pull people in and hear what kind of a good job they did. They don't want to hear from guys like me, you know, who say listen you did a good job but here are some of the things that need fixing.

You know, they just don't like hearing things like this. And so my colleagues, they don't like going down there and talking about it because they don't want to be labeled as being anti this and anti that. And it is-- it's a very fine line that we walk here in terms of speaking out on some of these issues.

RACHEL REABE: It's 10 minutes before 10 o'clock. You're listening to Midmorning on Minnesota Public Radio. Leif Enger is in our audience and has a schoolteacher with him. Leif.

LEIF ENGER: Yes, I'm standing here with Bruce Femling. He is a junior high band director here. He's been a teacher for 25 years. And he's concerned about the impact of school choice programs on music and art programs here at the school.

AUDIENCE: Well, as I understand this problem, we lose about $40,000, approximately, $40,000 for every 10 students that we lose to optional school sources. That would equal a couple beginning teacher jobs or an experienced teacher job. And generally speaking, and I've gone through this quite a few times, they look at the music and art positions rather quickly when it comes to budget cuts.

And I have a-- I have a problem with that, so I guess I'm being a little bit selfish because I want to see the music programs and art programs stay strong for the kids that are in Brainerd, and Crosby, and Aitkin. And I don't want to see those programs sacrificed because we lose 10, 20, 30 kids to optional programs.

RACHEL REABE: So Mr. Holland's Opus wasn't that far off.

AUDIENCE: Exactly. Exactly. That was an excellent movie. And that's what happens. That's exactly what happens.

RACHEL REABE: Let's talk about that. Could music and arts be the sacrificial lambs in all of this? If we pull out too many students and the schools are forced to make cut, and of course, they cannot make many of the academic cuts because those are state mandated, so what happens?

DUCK THOMAS: Well, you certainly have a right to be selfish on this issue because your programs do get cut off. And to go back to the athletic example again and talk about media coverage, and the center did some work a couple of years ago on the media's focus on academics and arts and music versus athletics. And in some cases, the coverage was 30 to 1. And I think that tells you what is typically important to the public. And sad as it might be, music and the arts get the short shrift in this issue.

RACHEL REABE: Can you give Bruce Femling any assurances whatsoever?

DUCK THOMAS: I think--

RACHEL REABE: Any ray of hope.

DUCK THOMAS: --as we get more into this market driven kind of system, I think it's going to be up to the certain departments and certain teachers to become promoters and entrepreneurs of their programs--

SPEAKER: May I have you attention for this announcement, please?

DUCK THOMAS: And I absolutely believe that that's one of the ways we're going to--

SPEAKER: It has become necessary for us to evacuate the building.

DUCK THOMAS: --work through competition.

SPEAKER: Please take your students directly to the assigned church. They are not allowed to go to their lockers or stop anywhere on the way.

DUCK THOMAS: So some of it is going to be fighting for your programs. And it's going to-- but also I think in the long run everybody's going to have to fight for their programs because we're never going to have enough money we know that.

BOB GROSS: Yes, and of course, I would say the issue that Mr. Femling raises is particularly tragic when we're losing students for other than what the legislation was intended. If the students would be going after a more rigorous program someplace as opposed to leaving for other reasons, for convenience reasons, or because they found an easier route through, I think that that's the kind of thing that I've wanted the legislators to fix so that people like Mr. Femling don't lose these good students to programs other than what they were intended for.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you, Bob Gross, and, Duck Thomas, for joining us this morning. There is an emergency here in the Crosby Schools. They have asked us to evacuate the building. So with that premature closing to this segment of Midmorning, we'll send it back to you in Saint Paul.

PAULA SCHROEDER: All right, thank you, Rachel. We're certainly hopeful that everything is going to work out all right. Apparently, there has been some problem with a couple of children passing out in the school. And there may be a problem with the circulation in the building. We really have no other information at this time.

I'm Paula Schroeder and Rachel Reabe and the rest of the Mainstreet crew have been broadcasting live this morning from the Crosby-Ironton school in Central Minnesota. And we will have an update on that situation as soon as we get it here. The time now is 6 minutes before 10 o'clock. We're going to do a little bit of backpedaling and see where we can go. Hopefully, we will continue with our remote from Crosby. But we will be back in just a moment.

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Our broadcast of Mainstreet radio's remote from Crosby, Minnesota is supported by a major grant from the Blandin Foundation, strengthening rural Minnesota's communities through grant making, leadership training, and conferences. In the Twin Cities, or rather in the state of Minnesota, there is a snow advisory in North Eastern Minnesota today into early evening. Light rain, freezing rain, and snow in the North will change to all snow during the day, but we should see only drizzle and light rain in the South.

And that could change to light snow by late afternoon. Highs will be mainly in the 30s, and they'll be holding steady and then falling overnight into the teens to around 20 degrees. Partly sunny tomorrow with highs in the upper 30s to upper 40s. On Sunday, it's going to be windy and highs will be in the mid 20s to around 40 degrees. So our rather springlike weather continuing now.

Well, in many US cities, a girls high school hockey team taking the ice for its first varsity season might toil in relative obscurity. But senior defender and co-captain Jamie Westlund happily reports that the people of Hibbing, Minnesota are keenly aware of their girls team.

WILLIAM WILCOXEN: In many US cities, a girls high school hockey team taking the ice for its first varsity season might toil in relative obscurity. But senior defender and co-captain Jamie Westlund happily reports that the people of Hibbing, Minnesota are keenly aware of their girls team.

JAMIE WESTLUND: They definitely know about it. And when they see that we play hockey, they'll see our jacket or something, wow, you play for the girls team. They're really excited about it. So that's good. They've been helping us supporting us a lot.

WILLIAM WILCOXEN: Hibbing cruised through the regular season undefeated but met its demise last weekend in a playoff loss to the team from Blaine in Coon Rapids. The Blaine Coon Rapids team will come back to the cavernous old fairgrounds coliseum this weekend along with Roseville, Burnsville, and the Blake school of Minneapolis for the state championship tournament.

Roseville is favored to win the championship. The team has won all two dozen of its games behind Winny Brodt, the state's player of the year. Brodt specializes in defense but has also scored 60 goals this season. So she's been playing hockey most of her 18 years.

WINNY BRODT: I don't know, I just love to play when I was little so my parents just kept me up with it and I kept on doing it. And I played guys hockey all the way up. And now I've changed to girls high school hockey.

WILLIAM WILCOXEN: Roseville's top scorer is Rhonda Curtin who scored a state high 72 goals in her freshman season. Rhonda skates alongside her younger sister Renee who made Roseville's varsity team as a seventh grader. Rhonda Curtin modestly attributes her success against older players to the relative inexperience of many of her opponents.

RHONDA CURTIN: I don't know. I've just been playing my whole life, so I have a lot of ability and like some girls they just kind of started. But it should-- the sport should get better along the way.

WILLIAM WILCOXEN: Roseville Coach Rich Kuehne says, some of the team's players come to hockey with backgrounds in figure skating, speed skating, or other sports. He says, the players ability to blend together well has been the key to the season.

RICH KUEHNE: We've got really a range of experience from somebody like a Winny Brodt to thinking about college to Renee Curtin who is just barely a teenager. And the kids have molded together very well. We got a lot of kids off the soccer team. And so the kids know each other and play together with each other in soccer and hockey over the years and get along very well. And it's just been a-- for us, it's just been a treat and a joy.

WILLIAM WILCOXEN: Burnsville comes to the tournament coached by Tom Osiecki who coached the boys hockey team for many years winning two state championships. Osiecki came out of retirement to coach this year's girls team. He says, he underestimated how much help the girls would need with their game and acknowledges he was frustrated early in the season. But Osiecki says, the girls improved faster and more dramatically than he thought possible. He says, the girls are more receptive to coaching than his boys teams were.

TOM OSIECKI: Boys, limit themselves by the amount of knowledge they bring to the game or they think they bring to the game. And as a result, they probably hear about one third of what they're being told. These girls hear 100% of what's being told and as a result, they grow like nothing you've ever seen.

WILLIAM WILCOXEN: 47 Minnesota high schools now have girls hockey teams. That's nearly double last year's number and more teams will be added next year. John Bartz, an executive with the state high school league, says, he still fields calls from incredulous high school officials around the country wondering if Minnesota really does have a girls high school hockey tournament. Bartz says, the tournament may be expanded to eight teams next year, if the growth in the number of high school programs warrants it. I'm William Wilcoxen, Minnesota Public Radio News.

PAULA SCHROEDER: You're listening to Midmorning on the FM News Station. I'm Paula Schroeder. You have been listening to a broadcast from Crosby, Minnesota with our Mainstreet radio team, a terrific discussion about school choice going on there. Unfortunately, we've had to end that early because of a problem in one of the science rooms in the school that they are broadcasting from.

Apparently, some students are having trouble breathing and some have broken out in hives. Apparently, some kind of lab experiment gone wrong. The school has been evacuated. And we are wrapping up our broadcast from the Crosby school early.

Coming up in the next hour of Midmorning, we will be talking to Lyall Watson, who is the author of a book called Dark Nature, a fascinating topic about the natural history of evil. So we'll talk with him after we get an update on the news. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio.

This is the FM News Station, KNOW FM 91.1 Minneapolis, Saint Paul. In the Twin Cities right now, it's 35 degrees with some light fog. Be sure to turn on your headlights, if you're out driving around. We're expecting a high temperature today right around where it is right now at 35 degrees and temperatures falling overnight into the 20s.