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GARY EICHTEN: National Convention of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People continues in Minneapolis today. Convention delegates, of course, are focusing on major civil rights issues affirmative action, desegregation. And given the group's financial problems, the very survival of the NAACP itself.

Now, one of the local highlights occurs Thursday when the Roy Wilkins Memorial is dedicated at the State Capitol. Wilkins, who grew up on St Paul's North end and worked as a newspaper reporter in Saint Paul, was one of this nation's preeminent civil rights leaders heading the National NAACP during its heyday from 1955 to 1977.

Today, we're going to spend the hour talking a little bit more about Roy Wilkins and more specifically, the broader civil rights movement here in the state of Minnesota. Joining us in the studio is historian Arthur McWatt, who was born and raised in Saint Paul. He taught in the public schools for over 30 years. He's written extensively on the local civil rights movement. In fact, he's got a book called And the Saints Kept Marching In, a Chronicle of the Civil Rights movement in Saint Paul from 1880 to 1980. Mr. McWatt, thanks for coming in today. I really appreciate your being here.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Thank you very much.

GARY EICHTEN: I'd like to start, briefly, with Roy Wilkins. Now, he grew up here. Was he pretty active, locally, before he went off to the National NAACP?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Oh, yeah, he was quite active as a young man. I know he was at the University of Minnesota. He was editor of The Daily for a while, for a couple of years. And he was involved in civic matters. I know one of the things he did was he helped S. Ed Hall, S.E. Hall sponsor a dance which raised $517, I believe, in 1923 to start their Saint Paul Urban League.

And this was the start up money. And then they sent in Elmer Carter, and they sent in additional monies to get the Saint Paul Urban League started. I think he left here in about 1926. He had also had a brother Earl who he loved very much. They were very, very close.

And Earl Wilkins is one of the people I deal with in my book. I call him the ubiquitous agitator because he was a very brilliant man. And he was into a lot of different things, and he published a paper called The Saint Paul Echo, which he had some very good advice for the African-American population and was very much involved in community affairs. So Roy, of course, after he left, he went to The Kansas City Call, and he worked down there. And, later, Earl went down and joined him and also wrote for The Kansas City Call in Kansas City, Missouri.

So one of the things I mentioned recently, was the fact, to somebody who was inquiring about information on the NAACP, was that in 1960, Don Lewis and Elmer Carter and some of the leaders of the Saint Paul NAACP, began a campaign to bring Roy Wilkins back for the convention here, the National Convention here in 1960.

And Spingarn, who was one of the founders of the NAACP, was an old gentleman there. And Roy had been getting quite a bit of criticism. This was from the younger people in the Civil Rights movement. And he was feeling kind of bad about it.

And so when the youth day came, or when he addressed the youth in the convention, before he addressed them, some of the youth picked them up on his shoulders, and they marched them around the convention hall on their shoulders. And Roy was so pleased and so touched, and Spingarn broke down and cried and because he was so pleased that the young people had shown that they really respected and admired Roy.

GARY EICHTEN: What was the source of the criticism?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, the criticism was that Roy was always a kind of a moderate, slow speaking, thinking kind of individual who was not quite militant enough for some of the younger people. But Roy always felt that you had to go through legal-- attack the whole area of civil rights from a legal point of view.

And he felt changing the laws was more important than a lot of protests and marching and many other things that, well, he believed in that too, but he didn't do it to the extent that many young people thought he should go. He didn't go that far.

GARY EICHTEN: Would it be fair to say that he was probably the most important civil rights figure in Minnesota history, or was he just the best known?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, I think he made the greatest contribution. Because after, of course, he left here, and he went on in 1955 to become the national leader of the NAACP and spent the next 25 years there. So certainly, over the years, he was certainly the most significant leader we produced from Saint Paul.

GARY EICHTEN: Our guest today is historian Arthur McWatt, and we're talking about the early days of the Civil Rights movement here in Minnesota. The NAACP chapters, the local chapters got started fairly early on, did they not?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yes.

GARY EICHTEN: The National organization started in, was it 1909 or 1910, I think it was.

ARTHUR MCWATT: 1909, and of course, it really started the thinking for it, of course, began in 1905, with W.E.B. Du Bois, and they had the Niagara Movement in Buffalo, New York, which met in 1905 in Buffalo. In 1906, it met in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia. And those were really the founding years where I noticed Myrlie Williams quoted some of the Constitution the other night, and those remarks were developed during those two meetings in 1905 and 1906.

And so, there was a Frederick L. McGee, who was one of the great civil rights leaders in Saint Paul, admired Du Bois's book, The Souls of Black Folks. And so he wrote Du Bois, and they began a friendship. And Du Bois asked him to come to Buffalo for the Niagara Movement.

So that got Saint Paul involved, and Frederick L. McGee also attended the next year, but he got involved in his practice the next two years, and he didn't participate in the subsequent meetings, until I think, about 1910 or '11, and then he died. And Frederick L. McGee died in 1912 before, actually, the NAACP began in Saint Paul because it began in Saint Paul in 1913, in May of 1913.

And actually, it was done as the meeting, the initial founding meeting was called in respect to Frederick L. McGee actually a year from, almost a year from when he died. And so there was a Twin City Protective Association that had been formed by McGee. And that many of the members of that organization became members of the NAACP.

Now, it started out as a Twin Cities chapter in May in 1913. And there was, I think, for why, I don't know exactly what the reasoning was, but Saint Paul decided by October, 13th that they wanted their own chapter. So they split away from the Twin City chapter and started their own chapter in the following October.

And Reverend Lealtad, who was the person who baptized me at Saint Philip's Episcopal Church, became the president of the first chapter. And they had about 17 members, and they began to meet at Saint Philip's Episcopal Church. And of course--

GARY EICHTEN: Were the establishments of the chapters, were they in response to-- why did they form the chapters? Were there like segregated, a lot of segregation?

ARTHUR MCWATT: They're really called branches. They're really called branches. But essentially, 1910 was the nadir of the Black people in this country. It was absolutely the worst period that we had. It was vicious.

They had plays, The Leopard's Spots, and they had Birth of a Nation. They had all of the anti-Negro plays running on Broadway. One of the worst years for lynching was in 1910. Black people generally were treated the worst, in that period, of any period in our history.

It really began in 1900 when, between 1890 and 1900, the whole South became totally segregated. And of course, it was the 10 years following that was a period where that segregation was enforced by the Ku Klux Klan and by lynchings and brutal killings of Black people.

GARY EICHTEN: Was that going on up here too, or not so much?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, it goes on through the entire United States. Racism has always been part of our culture here, our national culture. But in 1920, of course, three Blacks were lynched in Duluth. And one of our lawyers, Lou Ervin from Saint Paul went up to help Mr, Scroggins, I believe his name, from Bemidji was a Black lawyer who defended the boys who were being accused of raping a woman up there.

These were youngsters were carnival workers, who had been passed through Duluth. And of course, the doctor who examined the girl said she was not raped. But nevertheless, that never meant very much to many white juries. And the boys were indicted and the grand jury.

And I think, consequently, after the NAACP got involved, I think, eventually, only one went to prison for, I think, for 20 years, Max Mason, and eventually, the NAACP got him released. It was a very short time, I think, within five years then they got him out. But the NAACP was very much involved in that situation in 1920.

But overall, one of the reasons I wrote that in my book, one of the reasons I wrote the book, was that essentially, the climate in Minnesota, beginning back in the early to mid-19th century, was positive. And there was some very good associations formed by the early Afro-American settlers in the state.

And starting with George Bonga, who was the first Black settler who was a person that worked up in Cass County who was a trader and entertained some of our most important Minnesota figures, like the Governor Alexander Ramsey and various other people were guests up at his lodge. So from then on, from during the first 50 years, from 1854, there was pretty positive relations between Blacks and whites in Minnesota.

Our guest today is historian Arthur McWatt, who is the author of a book called And the Saints Kept Marching In, a Chronicle of the Civil Rights Movement in Saint Paul from 1880 to 1980. Patricia, is on the line from Saint Paul. Good afternoon.

PATRICIA FRAZIER HICKMAN: Hi. Mr McWatt. This is Patricia Frazier Hickman.

ARTHUR MCWATT: [INAUDIBLE] good afternoon.

PATRICIA FRAZIER HICKMAN: Good afternoon. I guess after I was sitting here, I was kind of filling up because of some of the things that you were saying. First, I guess during our age of the '60s, we were the ones that, I guess, were called the militants. But we seen our parents as advocates, and my grandparents as advocates, Mary Anderson Johnson in Minneapolis and Art and Jean Frazier.

With me being, I guess, with my brother because my brother, Mr. Frazier opened up the spiritual part of the conference. And my daughter was on yesterday, Robin. And some of the things when you hear, and knowing the struggle that we've been in, and maybe that's some of the things that I caught from my parents. And I was able to give to my children.

And it has to go on because when you hear back from when you were talking about, did lynchings happen in Minnesota? Yes, lynchings happened in Minnesota. A lot of times, we don't even know the people that were just coming and going. And as I listened to my grandfather, which was a storyteller, and that's why it's so important that we have to keep telling the story.

And I just wanted to share that. And I was really happy when I heard that you were going to be on and other historians because it's so important that we have to keep telling the story.

ARTHUR MCWATT: I totally agree with you, Pat, and I think, as I mentioned, the conditions go on and on. I mean, we go forward, and we make certain gains. And then we take a few steps back. It seems like our entire history, we've had good times and bad times. But through it all, there were people that continued to gave us a bad time.

GARY EICHTEN: There seems to be a particular concern, especially in Minneapolis at this point, about figuring out ways to open up all of the city, so people of whatever race or income status can live wherever they want to. Has this historically been a problem in the Twin City area where there are fairly definitely defined neighborhoods, where you were--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, well, we, of course, we had a fairly small population in Minnesota, generally, which has made it a little easier, I think, for the African-American population. Because it seems when you're not a large minority, you have less problems.

And I think, of course, we have a ghetto. We have the Summit-University area that, essentially is 80% Black and overpopulated. But I know there's been people that have fought for Fair Housing, and you should mention Father Denzil Carty, who fought very hard and lobbied very hard for Fair Housing Laws in Minnesota. My wife Katie McWatt lobbied for Fair Housing and Alfa Atkins lobbied.

But I know my wife served on a-- the mayor of [INAUDIBLE] put her on a housing committee in 1963. And I think she was the first one to bring up the idea, at least on a city-wide basis, of scattered housing, which scared a lot of people to death.

And it's really essentially, I think, the basis for racism is housing segregation I think the National Board of Realtors are really the one most responsible for racism in this country because they've made it their policy never to put a person into a neighborhood, that would depreciate, in any way, the value of the property.

And of course, there's been the feeling that Blacks would depreciate property. So that's in their code. That's in their law that they will never put anybody into a neighborhood that will depreciate, in any way, the property. And of course, that's a code word for not putting any minorities into certain areas.

And so she was able to accomplish some things with her committee. And she was able to open up some ideas and some thinking. The federal government has done more, I think, with the various types of housing programs that have put people in various neighborhoods. But I think that's essentially the key. Of course, if you had integrated housing, you wouldn't have to worry about the school problem.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm, in the older days, was there a sense that the Black community wanted to live all over the city? Or were they more--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, yeah, ever since the beginning, we've been trying to move out. I mean, right during the early part of the century, there were Blacks and--

GARY EICHTEN: So it wasn't like everybody lived in one neighborhood because they all wanted to be together.

ARTHUR MCWATT: No, no I don't think that's true. I think people want to live in a nice a neighborhood as they're able to financially. And that's what we should have. We're not saying that I think that you should just force people to live-- just spread people out just to spread them out.

But I think when people get to the point where they can move, and they have the finances, they have the background, they have the job, they should be able to move any place that their financial standing allows them to move. And so that's the problem.

And there was incidents, back in the '20s, where people tried to move up on St Clair. I remember an example, somebody tried to open up a barber shop on St Clair. And they had some problems. The NAACP had to step in and resolve them. I think they resolved them satisfactorily.

There was a man who would try to move out on Dale and Wheelock. And he was refused a lot. And he was given, instead, a lot that was made up of sand. And oh, there was all kinds-- there were a number of instances in our past history in Saint Paul, where Black people have had difficulty and have had real problems moving into white areas.

GARY EICHTEN: Next caller is on the line from Roberts, Wisconsin. Pat?

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: Yes, hi. I'm from [? art. ?] I don't know if you remember me. It's Pat Perlin Capone.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, I certainly do, Pat.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: Catholic Interracial Council.

ARTHUR MCWATT: You were in a Catholic Interracial Council, yeah.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: And I don't believe I've seen you for over 35 years--

ARTHUR MCWATT: That's right.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: --like that in [? Casey. ?] So I was delighted to hear that you were on the program to hear about your book. And I do recall thinking, in the '50s, that looking ahead to this year, that we would have been far, far ahead of where we are now. We just had so much hope it seems like--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yes

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: --that the situations would be changed. And I noticed you were just speaking of the housing integration problem. And those of us active in the movement, I think, would have never believed that we'd still be at such a standstill.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, yeah. Well, there is progress. There is progress being made. I was reading the other day where that Rondo situation, when the freeway went through there, this is the way Maplewood got started, really, and Blacks got out in Maplewood as a result of the freeway.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: Yeah, I do remember, in the Catholic interracial Council movement, we had placards at one time. Do you remember those? Where if there was a house for sale in your block, those of us who were active would put up a sign saying--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Tony Lang did that. Remember, Tony Lang went around and she--

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: We welcomed neighbors of [INAUDIBLE] created that kind of thing to sort of--

ARTHUR MCWATT: They collect the names of people who would welcome Black people or African-Americans into their neighborhood. And it was really a wonderful idea.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: And you know, and that, hopefully, dispelled some of the scare tactics of the realtors.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, yeah.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: Anyway, I'm just delighted that you're doing so much of the history.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: It's an interesting time. Well, it still is. There are still so many challenges. And at that time, I was teaching at Maxfield school, and that was before the freeway had gone through.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Right.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: And I have such fond memories of such nice community spirit. there. The club came over and planted flowers all around the school.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Right.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: Yeah, so it was very important. Well, carry on the good work.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Good to hear from you.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: Yeah, nice to hear your voice.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

PAT PERLIN CAPONE: OK.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks for your call. Our guest today is Arthur McWatt, who is the author of And the Saints Kept Marching In, a chronicle of the Civil Rights movement in Saint Paul from 1882 to 1980. And he's been good enough to come by today to talk a little bit about the history of the Civil Rights movement in Minnesota. Of course, Thursday, they'll be dedicating a Memorial to Roy Wilkins, who for a long time, was the head of the National NAACP. And he's probably Minnesota's best known advocate in the area, but there's a lot of history here. Dan's on the line from Bemidji, good afternoon.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Good afternoon.

DAN: Hi, I'd like to thank MPR for doing this show. I have two quick questions. The first is, being from Bemidji, I have an interest in the African-American lawyer from Bemidji who represented the three youth over in Duluth in 1920.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

DAN: And the second question is unrelated, and if you'll excuse me, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People seems like an old-fashioned name for the group. I wondered if there had been some discussion of changing the name to the National Association for the Advancement of People of Color, which is a more current term. I'll hang up and listen and thanks, again, for doing the show.

GARY EICHTEN: OK.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, as to this lawyer, he was a very famous lawyer. And I understand he was a fairly well to do lawyer. He did very well up in Bemidji. And I'm trying to think of his name. It was like Scroggins. There was something very similar to that. That might not be it. But he was active and had a very good practice.

I have not heard anything about changing the name of the NAACP. I think there's more and more emphasis nowadays on people of color than there is on African-Americans alone because I think we're getting into the point now where 40% of this country is people of color. And it won't be too long before the majority of this country will be people of color. So I think the Rainbow Coalition is growing and growing.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, historically, at least in our area, there was quite an alliance, was there not, between Blacks and Jews because the Jews were also targets of Ku Klux Klan rallies and the rest.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Right, Jews, they were also part of the quota system in Minnesota. And the University of Minnesota had a quota system in the '30s on Jewish people allowed in medical school and engineering school. And so we've had a tradition of cooperation. Jonas Schwartz comes to mind, who was very, very active in civil rights and a number of other people that worked there in the '60s.

And there's a very strong liberal Jewish community in the Twin Cities. And they've been very, very supportive of civil rights activities, yeah.

GARY EICHTEN: Jim is on the line now calling from his car, I guess. Hi, Jim.

JIM: Yeah, hello.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm, hello.

JIM: Yeah, can you hear me.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yes, I can.

GARY EICHTEN: Go ahead.

JIM: I'm from Saint Cloud, and I am a realtor. I'm also a member of the NAACP.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

JIM: I'm wondering if your guest could quote chapter and verse on what he said about the National Board of Realtors bylaws or charter. Because the way he said it would be in violation of both state and federal law. And I can't imagine that that's written out anyplace.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, well, I have it in my book. And I quoted it just as closely as I could. It wasn't the exact wording that I have in my book. But it was the fact that anyone that would bring a person into a neighborhood, that would depreciate the value of the property, it was against the rules. It was against the rules of the National Realtors, National Board of Realtors. It's in the National Board of Realtors guidelines.

JIM: Well, I'll tell you--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Now, it may not be there now. I'm saying it was there in the 1960s and '70s.

JIM: And I'm 52 years old, so you can get an idea of where I was in the '60s.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

JIM: I think a lot of things have changed in a lot of different professions.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

JIM: And I hope to God that's changed because if it's still in there, I guess I'm going to have to drop out of the National Board of Realtors.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm, well, you can ask them or get the book and look it up.

JIM: I'll be looking at the code of ethics and whatnot.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Good.

JIM: OK.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks, Jim, appreciate your call. Rick's up next with a call from Duluth. Hello.

RICK: Yes, I'd like to ask your guest if he could comment on the Lyght family that's out of Cook County, and John Lyght just retired as Sheriff there--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Oh, yeah.

RICK: --last year.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, Norm Lyght and I were-- Norm, I think, is his brother. Norm Lyght and I-- he taught at Drew Benjamin Drew school where I grew up. I went to Benjamim Drew school and graduated from it in 1940. And Norm Lyght taught there for many years. And Norm Lyght was in the Metropolitan Male Chorus, and we sang together for five years or up until the time of his sickness. And he's a wonderful friend. He was a wonderful teacher, and he was a very fine man.

GARY EICHTEN: You were talking about the schools, going to school here, were the schools integrated? Or are they--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Oh, yeah. There was only-- I think, in 1854, there was a colored school. It was one of the-- 1857, there was a colored school set up and no one attended, none of the Black children. Their parents wouldn't let them attend. So the school closed in six months.

But we've always had a integrated education. And as I say, the schools have, as white flight has taken place, of course, the schools have become predominantly colored. And so now we have 40%, 50%, 60% of the school population of color as the people ran out to the suburbs.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm, next caller is from Wilmer, Jim.

JIM: Yeah, this is Jim. And all this talk has reminded me of an incident back in 1967. I was 16 years old riding with my father. He took my brothers, and we went down to Plymouth Avenue.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

JIM: There was some rioting going on down there.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

JIM: All the National Guard, do you remember that?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Right, I remember that.

JIM: And my dad was very racist. He went down there, and he just put down black people. They tried to explain to us kids exactly why they were doing this what was going on.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

JIM: And I had this warped view of this whole thing.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

JIM: Then in a 1969, I was drafted to Vietnam.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah,

JIM: And when I got over there, and so of my life, sometimes my life depended on some Black people.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

JIM: Boy, did things turn around.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, well, that's good. That's really heartwarming to hear that.

JIM: Yeah, and I've had that thought ever since. But it was warped for a long time. And I guess I just had to experience it myself.

GARY EICHTEN: Was the violence in 1967, was that about the worst that's occurred in Minnesota in terms of race, racially-- violence related to racial issues.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, well, I think so. In 1968, it was in St Paul. It was all over. I imagine it was around both the cities about the same time. But there was a Stem Hall Auditorium ride. There was some kids that came. They walked home and along the way, they broke a few windows or something, but there wasn't very much.

But then they got up on Selby, and there was a lot of hubbub up there. I know my wife was out, and we were out, and we were trying to calm things down. And one of the young men that my wife knew, from the Urban League, the police had just grabbed him and were pulling him into a kind of a wagon. And my wife was pulling on one arm, and the policeman was in the wagon pulling on this other kid's arm. And I was pulling on her other arm trying to-- so we had a human chain.

And finally, the guy in the wagon won, and he jerked the guy in there. But my wife's very active, and she gets very angry when people are abused, abused people of color. So she just got very actively involved in this whole thing.

And we helped calm down, along with Jackie Hickman. And there was a-- Bill Wilson. A lot of people out there that were-- the adults were trying to calm the kids down.

GARY EICHTEN: What was the motivation for the violence that erupted at about that time?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well--

GARY EICHTEN: Just specific incidents or kind of a general feeling that nothing was changing?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, the assassination of Martin Luther King, of course, was in April of 1968. I'm sure it was related to the assassination of Martin Luther King. And so it didn't last any length of time. And so I think that was the worst night we ever had.

GARY EICHTEN: Next caller is from Minneapolis. Mary, good afternoon.

MARY: Yes, good afternoon.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Good afternoon.

MARY: I was listening to you talk about the realty problems. I grew up in Minneapolis and was in grade school in the late '40s and early '50s.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MARY: Definitely remember what, in our neighborhood, we called blockbusting.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MARY: It wasn't something, I know, that was necessarily written anywhere, but boy, was it going on, and there was no question about that.

GARY EICHTEN: Would you explain what blockbusting is for those of us who don't know.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, well, I can explain. What they would do, is that when a Negro would move into a neighborhood, first of all, they'd hike the price up to for him to pay to get into the neighborhood, like, the house was $70,000, they'd charge him $85,000.

Then they would tell the other neighbors, of course, that your property is depreciated. And so if you don't sell now, it's going to depreciate even more. And so then of course, people started leaving. And as they left, they would get a good price, of course. But in the process of them leaving, it would just bust the neighborhood open.

And of course, then of course, maybe more Negroes would move in to fill in that-- and they would, of course, charge the Negroes moving in much more money than the house was really worth. And they would use this process to scare and create fright so that people would move. And they would make they would make money off of the whole transaction. They would make money off the Blacks, and they would make money off the whites.

And usually, after some-- later on, I think, when one person moved in, it wasn't so bad. They wouldn't start the blockbusting. But when two moved in, then the blockbusting would go into effect.

GARY EICHTEN: Who is "they" in that instance?

ARTHUR MCWATT: The realtors. [LAUGHS] The realtors, the people that were selling the homes. They were the ones that would start the blockbusting.

GARY EICHTEN: And the motivation was just to make money on the commissions?

ARTHUR MCWATT: They make money and overpricing houses for Blacks and perhaps, just creating a fear, fear among people, against Black people.

GARY EICHTEN: Mark's on the line from Saint Paul. Hi, Mark.

MARK: Yeah, I wanted to bring up a couple of points. One, I was working for the Associated Press back in '67 and '68 in Saint Paul.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MARK: And I was involved in the Stem Hall riots.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MARK: I just wanted to mention that was the specific flaming point of the riots, if you will, or the discontent that spread through both cities.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Oh, I see.

MARK: It wasn't the thing that--

ARTHUR MCWATT: So probably, the fellow that said 60--

MARK: This was the flame point.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, well maybe it was '68 in both cities. I thought it was '68 in both cities where we had those disturbances.

MARK: But it was that Stem Hall incident, in particular, that brought it to the boiling point, let's say. That was the flashpoint. It went from there. It just spread and got to be very ugly for a while.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Is that right? I didn't know about that.

MARK: She was talking about the-- I'm still a Saint Paul resident. And I have been last century. And we had a Black family move into our neighborhood. And I wanted to address this from the realtors' standpoint. We lived in a very nice neighborhood, very well-kept yards and everything. It's been progressively gaining in value and so on.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MARK: But one of our neighbors, next to the family that moved in, had their house up for sale for totally different reasons.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MARK: But in the times that we've talked to the realtors in the area, all of a sudden, from the realtors, it's they never would address it specifically, but oh, the neighborhoods gone to hell, and you can't get $0.10 for your house.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MARK: So I'm saying from my own experience, that the realtors-- I don't know what their policies are. I've never read anything about that. But I knew from experience they actually do suddenly get very negative.

ARTHUR MCWATT: I know. That's right, yeah. That's right.

MARK: I just wanted to concur with that.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Very good. I thank you very much. I appreciate it.

MARK: OK.

GARY EICHTEN: Thank you, sir, for the call. Off we go to Mike, who's calling from Shaler, Iowa. Is that right?

MIKE: That's correct. Down by Storm Lake, Iowa. We pick you up down here.

GARY EICHTEN: Great.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Good afternoon.

MIKE: Yeah, the reason I'm calling is, you're bringing back recollections for me. I grew up in Iowa as a youngster and then moved to Virginia in the middle 1950s as a high school student.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MIKE: Right in the middle of the situation in Virginia where Virginia was closing down schools--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Oh, yeah, closed the schools down, yeah.

MIKE: --in order to keep us white folks from having to go to school with Black folks. And I just, I was blessed with a family that had given me tremendous roots and understanding and appreciation of all people. And this was a shock to me.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, I can imagine.

MIKE: Ever experienced that, it just blew me away. It's part of the motivation for why I ended up in the ministry.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Is that right?

MIKE: And I have been a part of, in one way or another somewhere or another, some way been involved in it. It's bringing back all kinds of memories for me.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

MIKE: But one of the things that does come to my mind today, in our era right now, is what I remember hearing when I was a high school student under the heading, states' rights.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MIKE: Which meant, when I lived in Virginia, especially, we were going to be able to keep the Black folks doing what we wanted them to do.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

MIKE: And none of this interference from outsiders kind of thing.

ARTHUR MCWATT: That's right.

MIKE: And what I hear today about block grants, control of the decision making sounds good in one level is it sounds as political rhetoric. But from another perspective, I hear haunting back from the old days.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

MIKE: The same kind of--

ARTHUR MCWATT: Demagoguery.

MIKE: [? --thing ?] I experienced.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Demagoguery.

MIKE: Yes, and it's a code word for, where we're gonna--

ARTHUR MCWATT: We're going to take care of them--

MIKE: That's right.

ARTHUR MCWATT: --home at home.

GARY EICHTEN: You think that's at the basis of today's politics?

ARTHUR MCWATT: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Gingrich is nothing but a demagogue, a racist and a demagogue. And he is putting this package in. If you don't think that when they get those block grants, they're going to treat Black people just like they treated them back in 1940. And they get one fourth-- I heard where one fourth of Mississippi school children got one fourth of what white children got in their schools.

The only thing that keeps them honest is the federal government and the guidelines by the federal government and the threat of removing other things that the federal government provides if they don't obey, and they don't comply. If they have it all themselves, it will be some local-- racists will take over, and you'll get the racist governor, our racist attorney general.

After all the Civil Rights is only as strong as the attorney general, if you have an attorney general like Eisenhower had Brownell, who wouldn't do anything. The Civil Rights movement doesn't mean anything if you don't have a strong attorney general. Reagan didn't have his attorney general that did anything for the Civil Rights Act or the Voting Rights Act. For 10 years they didn't do anything.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hmm.

ARTHUR MCWATT: See, if you don't have a president that is going to push his attorney general to enforce the Civil Rights Act, it won't be enforced. And that's what it is. But the block grants is the biggest boondoggle that ever happened. It's just a chance to let the states jerk people around.

GARY EICHTEN: while we're on the subject of politics, 1948, Hubert Humphrey gave his famous civil rights speech at the Democratic National Convention. What kind of impact did that have here? Certainly sent a shock wave across much of the rest of the country.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, yeah, well, it was very, very significant. He'd been a very popular mayor in Minneapolis in 19-- he was a mayor when he made that speech, in fact. And he was a extremely popular man. And in 1948, Minneapolis was known as the anti-Semitic capital of the United States, and Humphrey had a lot to do with changing that image.

And he also was a friend of Black people through Cecil Newman, who was another person that I feature in my book, who was an outstanding civil rights man. And he would always consult Cecil Newman on things that he felt concerned Blacks and get Cecil's opinion before he moved.

GARY EICHTEN: Our guest today is historian Arthur McWattt as we talk about the early days of the Civil Rights movement here in Minnesota. Daniel is on the line from Saint Peter. Good afternoon.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Good afternoon.

DANIEL: Thank you, sir. My name is Daniel J. [? Pete. ?] I'm not Uncle Tom. I was just thinking that I simply sit down, and I'm just amazed by how beautiful the Afro-American people are. And I'd be willing to work for $2 to $3 an hour painting their homes or painting the doors to their homes.

I know where I come from, but Fargo, it's considered lily white. Well, we also welcome black people entertainers, people that are just part of the community working or whatever they do.

ARTHUR MCWATT: mm-hmm.

DANIEL: And up in Moorhead, there's been quite a new boost of goodness in the community with people of Mexican-American descent.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Mm-hmm.

DANIEL: I remember working out in 100 degree heat cleaning and making houses livable for the Mexican-American laborers there. And I think it'd be all neat if we could just sit down and have a cup of tea together.

ARTHUR MCWATT: That's wonderful. There's a lot of good people in this country. It's just that there's about one third of the population is stone-cold racists. And they're the ones that make things bad.

GARY EICHTEN: Next caller, Phil, your turn.

PHIL: Thank you. I wonder if Mr. McWatt would remember the Minnesota motorcade in 1960, that went to Nashville, Tennessee? If it might be in his book, I don't know. I haven't read about it. But it was important to at least 12 of us who participated.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Oh, yeah.

GARY EICHTEN: What was it, and what was it all about it?

PHIL: Well, the sit-ins had started in Nashville, among other places. And we were students at the University working for The Minnesota Daily, six of us.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

PHIL: And we were quite upset because fellow students trying to learn the same things we were, were having cigarettes crushed out in their backs because they sat in at little cafes in places to get a Coca-Cola or a hamburger or something.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

PHIL: And were beaten and pushed.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, I'll tell you one thing. And one of the things I have in my book, is that Minnesota's always had a tradition of helping this whole problem of African-Americans in racial matters. And in the Civil War, there were more Minnesota volunteers, noncoms and commissioned officers than any other state in the Union to lead colored troops, the colored Troops. So we have a tradition that goes way back to the Civil War of helping out African-Americans that are in need.

PHIL: Well, I would like to mention that there was a Black lawyer from the Nashville community furnished to one of our number who was stopped for going through a red light, which he had not done. His name was Alexander Luby. And he and his wife, after we left town, their home was bombed and demolished while they were in it.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah, oh, my.

PHIL: But they escaped. They had minor injuries, but they escaped. And we all felt guilty about bringing that kind of a result. That wasn't our intention. But that started the Students for Integration organization at the University of Minnesota.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Isn't that great. Well, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. All Minnesotans should be proud of you.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks for your call.

PHIL: David, your turn.

DAVID: Yeah, thank you. I wanted to have a couple of related things.

GARY EICHTEN: OK.

DAVID: First of all, I'm in my early 50s. And I remember talking with my pastor, who's in Saint Paul now. And he was from the South for a while. I asked him, what was it like to be a pastor in a small town where there were problems such as where you'd get a drink or having separate places to go to restrooms and so forth? And he said, well, my way of handling that, was merely that I'd go over to the places where I wasn't supposed to, and I'd take a drink.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Yeah.

DAVID: He just joined together.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Well, you know, I went to Mississippi in 1944 when I was in the service. And I got off the train in Mississippi and decided to go. And I walked in the white waiting room. And I was going to take a drink, but then I remembered I'd left my orders on the train. And so I had to run out, jump on the last car of the train, and got to the next town and had to take a bus back.

And in the middle, right between Biloxi and Gulfport, was its name, the bus driver, who had a 0.38 strapped on his side, he told me, he said, this is where you get off. And I said, I don't see any airport. He said, you get off. And if you don't find where you're going before nightfall, you're going to be a dead nigger.

So fortunately, I went down on the road, and I met a bunch of little confederates in a military school. And they told me how to get a bus and get back to camp. But it's Mississippi and the South are scary places.

GARY EICHTEN: Did we have here, at any point, segregated hotels, public facilities and so on.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Absolutely, Marian Anderson, Paul Robeson had to go up to Saint Paul. Go up that freight elevator on St. Peter's Street. They wouldn't let him in the front door. And they had to go up the service elevator whenever they came to St Paul.

Monsignor Gilligan, in my book, he used to make reservations for luminaries, Black luminaries. And then he would sit in the lobby. And when they would arrive, he would go up with them to the clerk and they would say, could I have my key. And they would say, they lost the key, or their rooms were all filled or whatever.

And then Monsignor Gilligan would step up and say, I made the reservation. And they would get their room. Bless our heart, he's 94 years old. And he's still living, and he's still a wonderful man.

GARY EICHTEN: We're unfortunately, out of time. So many good stories and so many more to tell, I'm sure. Thank you, sir, for coming in. I really do appreciate it.

ARTHUR MCWATT: Thank you for having me.

GARY EICHTEN: Our guest today, historian Arthur McWatt, who actually has written any number of articles and the like on the Civil Rights movement in Minnesota. He has a book called And the Saints Kept Marching In, a chronicle of the Civil Rights Movement In Saint Paul from 1880 to 1980. Is that generally for sale? How could they get--

ARTHUR MCWATT: That's presently being considered by the Minnesota Historical Society. And hopefully, they will see fit to publish it soon.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, well, thanks a lot for coming by.