Welcome back to mid-day on the FM news station. I'm Gary. Eichten. You don't 12 years ago Minneapolis found itself at The Cutting Edge of the fight against pornography two women Andrea dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon, let a successful effort in Minneapolis to pass an Aunty porn ordinance based essentially on the premise that pornography is sex discrimination while you are going to pass the city council, but never became law because it was vetoed by then-mayor Don Fraser, but it was such a new and novel approach to regulating pornography that it drew Nationwide attention and eventually a similar ordinance did become lawn Indianapolis Indianapolis. Ordnance intern was ruled unconstitutional but the concept behind the ordinance lives on an 1992 a bill passed on the base router on that dworkin McKinnon concept past the US Senate Judiciary Committee and the Canadian Supreme Court has incorporated the concept into Canadian obscenity law. That's where I guess today comes in and Ian Strassman the president of the American civil liberties.Is that with a new book that directly attacks? Leave me working nights as she calls them fuck his call defending pronography Free Speech sex and the fight for women's rights Nadine strossen grew up in Minnesota and Hopkins to be exact spend some time in the 70s clerking for the Minnesota state supreme court and working for a Minneapolis Law Firm eventually though. She had it for New York and in 1991 became the first woman to be named president of the ACLU. Thanks for coming by and I'm so happy to be here Gary cause I believe in actually recorded an ad for my local NPR affiliate in in New York talking about freedom of speech in the important role that public radio plays in that I have to ask you while we're waiting for our callers to get lined up here. What what is your definition of pornography? My definition is the Dictionary's definition which is essentially all expression in other words words or pictures thatAre intended to be or have the effect of being sexually arousing sexually provocative in other words, nothing more nor less than sexually-oriented expression pornography is not a legal term of art the term that the United States Supreme Court uses to refer to that subset of sexual expression or pornography that is not constitutionally protected is obscenity. Now the obscenity definition essentially focuses on expression that is immoral and even the anti-pornography feminists. Do not agree with that concept. That. That is that immoral according to community standards immoral expression. I should not be constitutionally protected therefore they try to attach a new legal definition and they use the word pornography deliberately to distinguish it from obscenity. Their concept was essentially sexually-oriented expression. That is degradingOr demeaning or subordinating of women my problem with all of those definitions no matter whether you call it in and all of those labels is that they are inevitably subjective and inevitably hand over to the enforcing Authority weather that is a police and prosecutor under obscenity law or whether that's a citizen vigilante under the door. Can I type laws those people will then take away from all individuals the power on our part to make our own decisions about what we choose to see and read and what we choose not to see and read in the realm of sexual expression. I think it is such a completely individual eyes matter what we find pleasurable what we find informative what we find interesting what we find amusing and what we don't know that we can't allow big sister anymore than big brother to take those decisions away from us. Do you support any kind of regulations on sexually explicit material is a lot of people who might otherwise generally SpaThe concept of freedom of speech for example really don't want to an adult bookstore in their neighborhood. They don't want their kids going in there and social kinds of restrictions. That would be allowed one would be and I'll get into a little bit of lawyers lingo here. If you don't mind Gary one would be applying to sexual expression the same kind of limitation as to its content that would be allowed with respect to all other expression. The Supreme Court has appropriately said for anybody to suppress expression because they don't like its content or its viewpoints. They have to satisfy a very heavy burden of proof. Essentially. The court has referred to a clear and present danger that that expression is going to lead to actual or imminent harm if but only if you can satisfy that high standard, can you suppress expression because of its content the other kind and I think thatSame standard should be applied to sexual expression. I asked to all manner of other inflammatory or provocative or arousing expression in the realm of politics or religion to take two examples on another dimension though. If one is not looking I specifically at the content of the expression but is trying to Foster some other goals such as having certain neighborhoods retain a residential quality as opposed to a commercial quality then through the zoning laws, you can use what the cord called content-neutral time place and manner restrictions on speech in other birds one could say that in a certain area the city no signs were allowed but one could not say, you know, only Signs regarding sexually explicit expression. I have to be banned and and in fact, the court has gone a little bit further and has allowed cities under the zoning power to use two kinds of zoning.Respect to sexual expression to deal with a kind of concerns that you raised. I either the the city. Can I put can require all sex shops, you know, including a book stores in video stores in and end in new dancing bars to be in one place in the city, which would facilitate those individuals who chose not to look at that kind of expression. They would simply stay away from that part of the city alternatively. The cord has said that cities can you scatter zoning to require businesses? Sexually-oriented business is not to be in close proximity to each other or in close proximity to other establishments such as schools such as churches such as residences. And so that's the way you can deal with a legitimate concern about off fostering individual choice about what not to see because that is as much a part of freedom of expression as allowing individual freedom of choice.What to say now we are there certainly an impression that virtually all women are opposed to pornography. How did you get so far out of the mainstream or is in fact that the mainstream I'm not sure what the mainstream is, but I am absolutely sure that the media attention to the anti-pornography pro-censorship feminist has been greater than the media attention to myself and my sister is in the anti-censorship camp, which is precisely why I seized the opportunity to write this book Carrie, but I do speak on behalf of many many women's rights activist writers Scholars artist many of whom are quoted in my book and many of whom have formed several anti-censorship of pornography organizations specifically because we believe based on experience that the power to censor any sexualExpression whether you call it pornography or obscenity doesn't matter that that power is inevitably going to do more harm than good to the cause of women's rights and and women's equality indeed. I although my book does outline the First Amendment Free Speech case against censorship its emphasis deliberately is on another basis for opposing censorship of pornography name Aleah specifically women's rights Center door feminist based reasons for opposing censorship of pornography. So I want to put the lie to this a stereotype that if you are a feminist or if you are a woman you are in the anti-pornography pro-censorship camping among many women that I called in my book who have long taken the same position I do. I'm very proud that one who endorse my book very enthusiastically is Betty Ford an of course the I consider her one of the founding.Fathers of modern feminism and she was the original president of the National Organization for Women another woman who is extremely well known for her work on sexual violence and and drape herself a rape victim Susan estrich. The author of the book real rape has given me wonderful endorsement and also many well-known women writers such as Erica Jean Judy Blume also very strongly in the anti-censorship of pornography Camp. I think it's important to note are women who have been active in the reproductive Freedom Movement including Faye wattleton longtime president of Planned Parenthood and and I'm going to dwell on that for a moment because one of the examples my book Gifts of how the power to suppress sexual expression will inevitably be disproportionately used against all those who are seeking social change. I including women and and those who Advocate the right is that throughout history.Anti-pornography in anti-obscenity measures have disproportionately targeted Advocates of women's reproductive Freedom back in 1920 when the ACLU was founded the earliest clients included people such as Margaret Sanger founder of Planned Parenthood Emma Goldman Mary Ware Dennett other pioneering feminism birth control Advocates who were regularly Harriston arrested and prosecuted and serve time in prison for violating the anti obscenity laws by giving information about birth control.I guess today is Nadine strossen. Who is the president of the American civil liberties Union in the union, and she has a new book out called defending pronography Free Speech sex in the fight for women's rights. She's been good enough to come by today to take some calls from listeners go to our first caller Dave is on the line from Minneapolis to answer. Attack on so-called pornography is part of a general attack on civil liberties Travel Country and it's a very coordinated attack. I think it's it involves all the issue a privacy of access to Media. The arguments are restructuring the same. They're all very fast on all very general Hall hot button button types of arguments that this was happening here even today with this design is a fragmentation of our energies the people trying to send the Constitution. And I'd like to have to get to respond to that as a you see how you present him. I completely agree with so many of your with all of your many fine points Dave as is always the case. I think attacking attacks on civil liberties can be presented in very Nifty sound bites to explain why it is necessary to defend expression that many people will on the surface consider abhorrent takes a bit of explanation and I do think that we are in a period where people as always when they are feeling very deep societal problems economic problems crime problems and so forth lash out in desperation for what seemed to be quick fixes I end and censorship is always one of these quick fixes all we don't like violence against women who does let's just Prohibit to suppress pictures of it forget about doing something real and constructed for the actual women who are victims of rape. We don't like violence on the street. Let's take guns off television forget about some kind of meaningful gun control on the street and so on and so forth. Next caller is Rick who is calling us from Duluth. Do you know I would like to ask your guess if she thought that with our sophisticated Communications like cyberspace satellite dishes and on and on and on if that renders photography laws Obsolete and fat renders the community standards obsolete, I'll hang up and listen to your reply. That's an excellent question rack and I think with as is true with any new technological development to the communications field, if you look throughout history. You see, and patterns number one that they Communications the new medium offers tremendous. Ways to increase the free flow of information and ideas, but at the very same time that new power and the new ability to reach larger masses and brought her math is a people has always frightened The Establishment the government establishment. So it always becomes an impetus for an acting new restraints are there is kind of an elitist. I'm going on and one sees it throughout history that those in power think it's completely safe for them to have access to words and and pictures including sexual but it dangerous if it gets out to them if it gets out to the masses, we've already seen examples of how the new cyber space technology has immediately along with all new Communications Technologies throughout history. I has been used very frequently for sexual expression. There seems to be an undying human curiosity about and thirst for Information and words and images and Communications about sex at the same time. We have seen government Crackdown 2 you very astutely ask about Community standards for those listeners who are not aware of the significance of that the United States Supreme Court has said that what is obscene and hands unprotected sexual expression has to be determined according to local community standards. Well, we've seen some government enforcement agents downloading some image from or words from communication from cyberspace, which literally can be worldwide in in in the in the actual community of users. But government enforcement agents are downloading it in a particular jurisdiction where they think the community standards are going to be especially intolerant of certain sexually explicit expression. So they are the government is trying to argue that we should use the lowest common denominator what you should be able to send out into cyberspace should be Only that which is tolerated by the most intolerant Community, I would hope that the Lord will develop in exactly the opposite direction and recognized that the the concept of a local community is now technologically anachronistic. We are in a worldwide Communications network is the statement in a question. You just a short one. I believe in censorship pornography or legislating morality, but pornography I think should be recognized for what it is. And you know, it is discourse Which shapes the way we look at the world like newspapers are reading a book and pornography institutionalize has a specific way men are to look at women and this is not an argument as to whether or not to be mailed. Please put her here in power to whether there's a train in Gallatin PornHub. Men. Look at women feel women want to be treated correlation coefficients and it doesn't take some studies to realize that this course construx reality. And I think we have to ask the question is when I give you a positive force should be applied. It's not whether it should be banned or not. I totally agree with you that discourse construx reality. But I also believe that reality in turn on construx discourse it obviously what we see and what we read has some influence on our attitudes and our Behavior, but the converse is also true. So I think there's a very complex interaction between viewer and image in one can't predict how any particular view or let alone viewers as a whole are ultimately going to react to a particular Images in addition Josh, I have to save from having red many descriptions of and surveys about the content of of pornography. It is so varied and so diverse showing as much diversity in the even superficial depiction of women is any other genre and according to those who have studied it overtime the depictions of women have become less degraded in the depictions of sex much less violent in the recent past following I think trends that I've observed in media such as advertising. We're certainly we have a ways to go and how women are depicted for my feminist perspective but we have come a long way in my adult life time. You know, when I was at twenty-five years ago on television ads women were were shown is having no concern in life other than the ring around their husbands collar and I think in both instances the media are responding not to censorship. Kind of a constructive criticism that you just made in the kind of constructive criticism that many on the anti-pornography side of this debate has made and I applaud them for raising people's Consciousness and concern about demeaning depictions Inn in sexual media. I think we should raise those same concerns with respect to all media question for calling in support of your efforts. I'll tell you I got rid of my television, excuse me, many many years ago for many reasons. One of them was the oldest sexism in the commercials, but I don't condemn people that still watch television now, I recently moved to a neighborhood which is in one block of the new dancing establishment and adult bookstore. And I'm also a walking alone home from class is at night and I've never run into any problems with having them in my neighborhood. I am a rape victim and I've been sexually harassed many many times, but it's never been because I was within proximity of a so-called pornographic establishment. So I just wanted to know who are we to believe because you say in your block essentially that there is really no evidence to indicate that just because people are looking at pornography means they will inherit quickly become more violent than and go on assault a woman on the other hand. We hear study cited by the Catherine MacKinnon. So say while there's no question about it leads to make that claim but the studies that that she and others and on the pro-censorship side of this debate at those studies do not in fact demonstrate a clear causal connection between even massive exposure to what the experimenter is called degrading pornography or violent pornography and actual Commission of rapes and II review those studies in my book quite critically again, though. I have to underscore what the relevant standard here is it is not enough. just to show if you could even show that that over time exposure to massive amounts of pornography might lead to a negative attitude toward women, which might lead awesome man to commit acts of discrimination or harassment or even violence that kind of attenuated cause-and-effect relationship between pornography and harm would not be enough to justify censoring it any more than you could say as previous generations in our country have argued that exposure to Marxist literature even in University course is my overtime lead want to disrespect our capitalist society which might lead them to actually take action to overthrow the United States government in the 1960s the United States Supreme Court recognize that that kind of indirect remote speculative connection between speech and some harm is never enough to justify censorship you have to show Some kind of a very direct imminent causal connection and I appreciate Kate's point about on the presence of the porn store not undermining her her feeling of safety or her neighborhood quality. Even the United States Supreme Court and was several years ago upheld a state law that prohibited new dancing all together. But all the justices had to concede that in that case to there was absolutely no evidence of any actual harm in terms of crime in terms of property values in terms of of Public Safety. I am what was very frightening to me was the court said, well, we can allow it to be banned because it offends the majority sense of morality that to me is a profound late guy dangerous Concept in a society. We are our Bill of Rights guarantees the right of individuals to express themselves and not to be suppressed merely because their views are Offencive I to the prevailing majoritarian standard or just send the fight for women's rights Carolyn is on the line from Minneapolis to influence their behavior such as Ted Bundy, right? And it's so funny Carolyn that you say such as Ted Bundy cuz that's the example that slide it over and over again and it's like putting an ice hole in throat and telling her to shut up and I can't help but wonder if that rapist thinks that the women really like it. Let me first talk about Ted Bundy because it is such a comely cited example, he was of course a convicted rapist and murderer who was on death row in Florida few years ago and literally on the eve of his execution after he had exhausted all other Attempts to Stave off the execution. He quote confessed close quote that it was pornography that had driven him to these heinous crimes. He can help me that so-called confession interview with a radio evangelist who was very much anti-pornography. It seems to me that under those circumstances Bundy statement is hardly the most credible source of evidence as to what really motivated him, but putting that aside Carolina. I'll make a a similar point of the one I made to Josh I have no doubt that there is some impact at pornography has on on everybody who looks at it and that if there are some twisted or pathetic or sociopathic or Psychopathic individuals that there may well they may well believe that they are and may well be incited from their worldview to commit crimes based on something that they see something that they read but it cannot possibly be our standard in a Free society that all of us are prohibited from seeing or reading anything that might drift Drive some sick person or psychotic person to commit an anti-social act. We know of many examples of famous copycat crimes based on on great literature and and non-pornographic works. For example. C. S keys to Aunt Crime and Punishment has repeatedly been cited as having driven some people to commit copycat crimes within the last couple of years. There have been copycat crimes are acts that endangered young people committed after watching and Walt Disney movie. I'm watching Beavis and Butt-head around the world these single work that has more often than blame than any other for the most atrocious crimes including gangrape send and child mollestation is the Bible. So we simply cannot say the fact that some some aberrant personality might do something illegal. Call or anti-social as a result of something. We see or read is any justification for for Banning the book we have to try to ferret out who these individuals are and put them in treatment programs. Use the appropriate criminal law measures that are available before they commit the crime sing all media as as important as a big problem and institutional collection building is what's known as prior censorship, which is devastating to the acquisition of audio-visual materials that may be erratic or have erotic two-tone sedan vs. Sub books. I wonder if you deal with this. Can your book or have any thoughts about it? Thank you. Yes, I had to deal with it because Andrea dworkin Catharine MacKinnon and others who Advocate their so-called civil rights approach of pornography it keep saying over and over again that they are not engaging in censorship. They have a very narrow view of what censorship is namely only official government prior restraint. You may not published that book and my concept of censorship as well as the Supreme Court's I might add goes far beyond that ought to recognize that bringing a lawsuit for civil damages against a work of sexual expression as would have been allowed under the dworkin McKinnon model law has adverse and effect on your ability Dawn to buy something or a rent something or a reader look at it because of what the court has called a chilling effect, even if the government does not directly in Prohibit somebody from producing a sexually-oriented work the fear that they may be subject either to criminal prosecution or to civil damages which often are you know far more onuris in terms of will you know the pocketbook impact will deter the production. So it will you'll never get an opportunity to see it. In fact in this country. It is now hard in most places to actually make an obscenity conviction stick on a peeling many people say well so why do you why do you care that 2 Live Crew were prosecuted for the song as nasty as they wanna be? Why do you care that the Cincinnati center for Contemporary Arts was prosecuted for obscenity when it showed the Robert mapplethorpe photographs and other examples because those cases ultimately ultimately often after appeal ended in a quit on the reason I care is that artists and record store owners and music. Curators all over the country are saying they are not going to touch they are not going to produce. They're not going to distribute. They're not going to display. They're not going to sell anything with sexual content that might be controversial that might lead to the kind of prosecution that was brought in those cases and in an artist all of the country or saying there some subjects they dare not touch it all and in my view all of that is prior restraint censorship and and deeply inconsistent with free speech very a good considering what's going on in the Anoka schools today discussion of R-rated materials in the classroom. I wanted to ask Your guess about the implications of this in terms of chance to meet hearing about it. This is a classic example in which the person who has been given an opportunity that I don't know if she's familiar with this particular case, but with the child asking permission to see the film The Piano in class, obviously the parents and I are being given the opportunity to say. No, this is not appropriate for my Kyle. The particular parent was also a member of the school board and decided that that wasn't good enough not only their child not yet. Nobody else's child to see it. But the Minnesota civil liberties Union had told me that I guess week before this. They announced that they would try to negotiate with the school district to get it to rescind that new requirement and if not successful would bring a lot As I understand it in addition to absolutely prohibiting the showing of all and you are all R-rated movies in the school's both the Anoka and Hennepin School District require very rigorous consent and approval even for showing PG films in the classroom. And in this is deeply troubling to me because what is being put out of bounds are materials that it may have some sexual content. I don't see it as as being you is certainly not not any stretch of the imagination it legal to sanity and also contains extremely important information and artistic expression that can be very powerfully conveyed. I mean when I think of to me one of them is the most important educational movies that's been made recently was Schindler's List. I assume that's got an R rating and I think would be tragic if if teachers are Absolutely prohibited from showing that in classroom. Sandra your question for Nadine strossen, please. I wanted to ask how do you stand on the issue of child pronography and do you believe the child abuse isn't a factor in the production of such material in inherently. My concept of illegal child pronography. Sandra is the use of a child in the production of a a pornographic work. The reason why I and I should add the American civil liberties Union have opposed certain laws that are called child pornography laws is that they have often gone far beyond that and extend not only to the actual use of a child in the production of a pornographic work. I bet even any depiction of a a child even any nude depiction of a child lately under the rubric of child pronography weave. Many tragic cases of loving parents and renowned art photographers being prosecuted merely for having taken nude photographs of their children and I say tragic because these people have been prosecuted their lives have been ruined custody of their children has been taken away from them. So we have to be careful that we don't under the rubric of opposing abuse or use of actual children in the production of pornography allow any sexually oriented or or new depiction of a child to be the basis of a Witch Hunt Scholars from embarrass, Minnesota John. Go ahead. Thank you. Pacifically how you see the suppression of pornographic or a c material as affecting the rights of women in the future. And in relation to that have you thought about this in relation to the rights of man and you have any any news on that? Yes. Thank you John. I give about 10 arguments as to why white women have more to to lose them to gain from censorship of pornography and in the brief time available here. Let me just suggest that one of the most important reasons is that precisely because women have been a group and are a group that have second-class legal status. It is the opposite of observing our own interests to hand over to the government is open and power to decide which sexual expression is degrading or subordinating. It gives a tremendous amount of discretion to the government and not surprisingly that power will be used. Not to help but rather to to hinder the the the group that is traditionally suffered discrimination. I think if for example if we look at our neighboring country of Canada, which three years ago adopted the concept of of degrading or demeaning of pornography which has been advocated by to work in a MacKinnon are the primary victims have been women's book stores women's writings feminist lesbian and gay bookstores and in homoerotic writing and a weave there in Canada several judges and prosecutors in and police commanders have actually said that they consider any feminist expression any homoerotic expression to be inherently degrading and demeaning it we shouldn't be surprised in light of the rampant sexism in and homophobia in our society and thank you for bringing up the question of men because I think the stereotypes that underlie the anti-pornography pro-censorship. Femen. Reprochar is insulting to men as they are two women women remember are deemed inherently incapable of consenting in the realm of sexuality inherently degraded by all sexual expression to me. That's a very subordinating stereotype about women but men do no better in Catherine McKinnon's last book called only words. She expressly Compares showing pornography to a man and two saying kill to a trained attack dog. So I agree with a brief at the ACLU filed in the Indianapolis case more than 10 years ago. Now when we said any law that treats women like a children and men like satyrs is hardly a step forward for gender equality, but I can't let you go without asking you that do you think of you in general? We spend so much too much time in this Society focusing on individual rights not enough on community and respond. Ability as in my perspective as head of the largest to oldest civil liberties organization III can't accept that carry. I agree with one of your earlier colors who made the point that salsa to Liberties are in battles now as different groups of people who have various political agendas across the political Spectrum. Seek to scapegoat individual rights, or at least the rights of particularly vulnerable and Powerless groups in an attempt to deal with pressing societal problems mean witness now all the attacks on on immigrants the attacks on the children of immigrants the attacks on on poor people, especially poor women and the children of poor women all of their rights are in battle too. And yes, I think that with rights come responsibilities, but to say that is not to say that individuals have rights that are absolute. Sacrosanct odd that no majority May deprive any minority no matter how small of these fundamental rights to have a lot more questions and then callers on the line, but we run out of time. Thanks so much. And who is the president of the American civil liberties Union and she has a new book out. It's called defending pronography Free Speech sex and the fight for women's rights. And also if you miss part of today's program were going to be rebroadcast in this program at 9 tonight on the FM news station now tomorrow here on. Midday. We're going to turn our attention to the situation in Bosnia another author's going to be in the Studio's national public radio's award-winning foreign correspondent. Tom gjelten will be stocked stopping by tomorrow. He's out with a new book called Sarajevo daily a city and its newspaper Under Siege. Of course, the Tom gjelten has won numerous awards for his coverage over in the Bosnia and Talks a lot about what's really going on over there and tells the story mostly through the eyes and ears of the people have been riding working at The Daily Newspaper in Sarajevo. Interesting book should be an interesting discussion and we'll get to that tomorrow on midday. Thanks so much for joining us today. Especially those of you who are called or tried to call in with your questions and comments. We appreciate