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CATHERINE WINTER: From the North Shore of Lake Superior, I'm Catherine Winter in Duluth. The North Shore is a magical place. It inspires poetry and music and leads visitors to write eloquent tributes in the guest books of hotels and resorts. Thousands of people come to the North Shore to camp in the summer and ski in the winter, and new hotels and restaurants are going up in North Shore towns.

In the next hour, we'll talk about whether there should be limits on development along the shore. And we'll talk about the effect that businesses and people on the shore are having on the health of the lake. Superior is already the cleanest of the Great Lakes. But controversial new federal laws may put tighter restrictions on what can be dumped into the lake.

Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin foundation, providing leadership training through the Blandin community leadership program. We're broadcasting today from three locations. Here in Duluth, we are at the Corps Of Engineers Canal Park Marine Museum, where our broadcast table is set up on the second floor in front of a wall of windows that gives us quite a dramatic view of Lake Superior. We're in front of the channel where ships pass from the open sea or the open lake-- I guess it is an inland sea-- to the Duluth Superior Harbor.

And we can see over my left shoulder here two freighters that are at anchor out on the open lake. And then farther off in the distance, we can see gray clouds meeting the horizon. Even on a drizzly day, it's quite a beautiful location. My colleague Rachel Reabe is standing by in Grand Marais, where I expect there are probably a lot of tourists up there enjoying the fall colors. Rachel, are you there?

RACHEL REABE: Yes, Catherine, I am here this morning. And we've actually had some sunshine in Grand Marais this morning. I'm sorry you're not up here with us. We are broadcasting from the Blue Water Cafe, which is actually just a block from the harbor here in Grand Marais. Population 1,300 people here. Again, a couple of hours North of Duluth.

And although the fall color is peeking inland on the shore, it hasn't hit yet. They're talking about perhaps in the next 10 days we'll see the most brilliant color down along the lake shore. And now we're going to go up to Thunder Bay, another hour and a half North of us where Mike Edgerly is standing by. Mike.

MIKE EDGERLY: Thank you, Rachel. The City of Thunder Bay is located about 300 miles North of the Twin cities, just across the US border with Ontario. Thunder Bay began as a center for French and Scottish fur traders in the early 1800s. Today, it is the world's largest freshwater port and has 120,000 residents. We're broadcasting from Lakehead University, where 6,000 students are in the first days of fall classes.

Lakehead is one of the sites for a series of important meetings by the members of the Lake Superior binational forum this week. It's the task of the forum this week to develop a plan to end all discharges into the lake of nine dangerous chemicals, pollution that includes mercury and PCBs. For our broadcast, we'll be joined here in Thunder Bay by Michigan environmentalist Gayle Coyer. She's a member of the binational forum. Catherine Winter, back to you in Duluth.

CATHERINE WINTER: All right. Thank you, Mike. In just a few minutes, we plan to talk about development along Lake Superior and also the health of the lake. And we'll be taking your calls, your questions and comments. But just briefly before we get started, we wanted to check in with Captain Edward Derry, who is on the Saint Clair somewhere out on Lake Superior. Captain Derry, can you hear us?

CAPTAIN EDWARD DERRY: Yes, I hear you.

CATHERINE WINTER: All right. We can just barely hear you, too.

CAPTAIN EDWARD DERRY: [INAUDIBLE]

CATHERINE WINTER: Can you tell us where you are?

CAPTAIN EDWARD DERRY: We're about 35 miles North of [INAUDIBLE] Point Lake Superior.

CATHERINE WINTER: And where is that?

CAPTAIN EDWARD DERRY: It's down on the Eastern end of Lake Superior between Grand Marais and Marquette, Michigan, and places like that.

CATHERINE WINTER: So you took off from Duluth last night, is that right?

CAPTAIN EDWARD DERRY: That is correct. We left Duluth yesterday about--

CATHERINE WINTER: Did you leave Duluth yesterday evening about 5:00, is that correct?

CAPTAIN EDWARD DERRY: Yeah, 5 o'clock. 17:00.

CATHERINE WINTER: Those marine phones, they'll give out on you, won't they?

CAPTAIN EDWARD DERRY: Well, I--

CATHERINE WINTER: Captain Derry, can you still hear us?

CAPTAIN EDWARD DERRY: When you work them a while, they start losing their power. Can you hear me now? Hello.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK. Well, we'll check back in with you later on in the program and see how things are going out there. In the meantime, let's get back to our guests who have been kind enough to come into our various locations all along the North Shore. We're joined by guests at each of our three broadcast sites.

Here at the Marine Museum is Kurt Soderberg, who's an expert on solid waste and wastewater. He's co-chair of a binational forum that advises the state and federal governments on protecting the lake. And he runs the waste treatment plant. That's one of the largest points of discharge into Lake Superior.

In Grand Marais, we're joined by Barrney Peet, who's past president of that city's chamber of commerce. Barrney Peet owns or manages a number of motels on the North Shore. And his great grandfather is the founder of Lutsen, one of the North Shore's oldest and best known ski resorts. Also from Thunder Bay, we're joined by environmental activist Gayle Coyer, who works with the Upper Peninsula Environmental Coalition. We sure appreciate all of you coming in. Thanks a lot.

KURT SODERBERG: Good afternoon.

CATHERINE WINTER: To begin with, I'd like to talk just a bit about development. A lot of our listeners, I'm sure, have visited the North Shore this year, and I'm sure many of them have noticed some of the changes along Highway 61 and up into Grand Marais. I know there are some new buildings on Main Street, New hotels. Barrney Peet, you've lived in Grand Marais a while. Have you seen that area change a lot in your lifetime?

BARRNEY PEET: I've lived here since 1957. And there have been a number of changes that have occurred since the middle '80s. Really, we didn't have a lot of change that was going on during the time from about 1950 until about 1975 that there really wasn't that much growth up here.

CATHERINE WINTER: And what-- what are you seeing now?

BARRNEY PEET: About six or seven years ago, we started to see a new interest in tourism on the North Shore. And I think there were a number of people that were instrumental in getting that started. The Lutsen-Tofte Tourism Association and the Grand Marais Chamber both pulled together and put in promotional programs, and I think that's attracted a lot more people to the shore.

CATHERINE WINTER: Are you finding that that's controversial with your friends and your neighbors, or do most people seem to be glad to have the added business that tourism brings?

BARRNEY PEET: Well, if you go back a number of years ago in the winter, there was really almost no business here. And we did have some logging that would occur. But as far as tourism, the winter business was almost nonexistent. And then my uncle started Lutsen Resort and that started to create some activity in the winter. And there used to be a ski area here in Grand Marais.

But it's only been probably in the last 10 years that we've seen people really come up and enjoy the new facilities at Lutsen resort and Lutsen mountains. And we also see a lot more in the way of snowmobiling. There's now dog sledding. There's just all kinds of activities that occur here in the winter. So we're seeing that we really have two seasons here, not just one.

CATHERINE WINTER: I know that Lutsen resort is trying to position itself now to compete even with the resorts in Colorado. And it does seem as though there's been tremendous growth in that area. It seems every time I come up, there's something new.

BARRNEY PEET: We have--

CATHERINE WINTER: Do you know if people like that or whether people would prefer to have a quieter town?

BARRNEY PEET: I think that you have some people that are, once they get here, would rather not see other people move into the area. But I think in general the community has experienced some growth. I think there are opportunities for young people now to stay in the community. They don't have to move to the city to find a job. And I think that most people feel pretty positive about the growth that's occurred.

CATHERINE WINTER: Do you feel like there should be limits on the way that growth occurs? Should only certain types of buildings be allowed, or should they only have certain types of signs, that sort of thing, so that Grand Marais retains the quaint character that it has now?

BARRNEY PEET: I've been active in working on both signage regulations and zoning ordinances, and I brought a friend with me today, Bob Ryan, who is the president of the Village Inn and Resort in Lutsen. And Bob and I have both been active working in the community with the county and with the city on sign ordinances, et cetera. Just here recently, we passed new sign ordinances for Cook County that restricted the billboard-- highway billboard signs that had been going up that were not very attractive. So we've been working pretty hard to try and protect the character of the area before it gets out of control.

CATHERINE WINTER: Please go ahead with your question.

AUDIENCE: Hi, I used to go to the Twin Ports Resort off of Highway 61 every summer with my family, and I hear that it's now been closed down. And I was just wondering, like, what's going to happen to its land.

CATHERINE WINTER: Does anyone know the answer to that one?

GAYLE COYER: I can answer that.

CATHERINE WINTER: This is Gayle Coyer.

GAYLE COYER: Yes, this is Gayle Coyer. The owner of the Twin Ports Resort is very interested in selling that land to the state so that the state can then tear the resort down and use that bit of shoreline for public access, since public access is growing scarcer and scarcer up on the Minnesota North Shore.

CATHERINE WINTER: That was one of the questions I had hoped to ask you about, Gayle Coyer. Are there problems now with-- is land on the North Shore becoming so pricey that it's becoming exclusive and only certain people are going to be able to have access to the shore or in certain places?

GAYLE COYER: Well, I think the most important thing to establish first is that Lake Superior is a very special lake. And the people who want to live in the Lake Superior shoreline or to come up and recreate it have to take responsibility for protecting that. And that takes a number of different facets. One is to make sure that pollution is not coming from those types of facilities.

And secondly, and maybe even more importantly, is to make sure that we do not lose that spirit of wildness and remoteness that people come to Lake Superior to experience. I mean, how many more resorts, how many more hotels before you start to lose that feeling, that special feeling that it's so rare in this world today. And so I think that's one of the big questions. And it's not necessarily a pollution question. It's not necessarily an economics question. It's a spiritual question.

CATHERINE WINTER: Yes, I wanted to ask our guest here in Duluth, Kurt Soderberg, even beyond the aesthetic questions or the spiritual questions of the way the lake looks or feels, does putting more development on the lake put more pressure on its ability to be clean? I know that already there are some problems with some towns along the North Shore and even here in Duluth, for instance, dealing with sewage.

KURT SODERBERG: There's no question that the more intense development you have that, the more difficult it is to try to restrict the discharges into the lake and to meet the new standards that we have for Lake Superior and for all of the Great Lakes. So that development does put increased pressure. It doesn't mean that it can't be done, but it does put a lot more pressure on those local communities to provide a higher level of treatment than maybe in some other areas is provided. And it creates a much greater challenge.

CATHERINE WINTER: I've been reading in the Northern Minnesota newspapers quite a bit lately about sewage washing into the lake during rainstorms. What happens? Can you explain why that's happening?

KURT SODERBERG: Well, in particular, it's been a big issue in Duluth and some of the other communities like Two Harbors along the shore. And our systems are somewhat related to the problems that they had in the Twin Cities where there was a combination between the storm sewer and the sanitary sewers there. It isn't like that here. But what we have is there are a lot of direct places where clean water can get into the sanitary sewers, some coming from foundation drains around people's homes, some coming from cross connections and systems.

And it causes a great strain on the system. The pump stations aren't large enough to handle all of that water coming in. And we have overflows. We have overflows at the pump stations and also at some of the treatment plants. You see times when there isn't enough capacity to adequately handle that. And it's a health issue and it's an environmental issue for the lake and the streams and the rivers that go into the Lake.

CATHERINE WINTER: Is it so bad that it's actually visible or smellable?

KURT SODERBERG: Only at the time. Really, It's not that huge an issue that we are causing massive pollution of Lake Superior that has an ongoing effect. It's certainly something that lasts for a time and it's certainly something that can't be tolerated. But we're not seeing green blooms of algae in Lake Superior. We did in some of the rivers and streams years ago. But now this particular problem isn't causing a dramatic long term impact.

CATHERINE WINTER: That brings up a question I wanted to ask either you or Gayle Coyer up in Thunder Bay. How clean or how polluted is Lake superior? How serious are problems with pollution and how much does it need to be changed?

KURT SODERBERG: Well, I'd like to at least talk about it. I'm sure--

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, Kurt Soderberg.

KURT SODERBERG: --Gayle will want to add on to that. On our Lake Superior forum, we have heard several reports, and I know there is a state of the lake report out that says Lake Superior, relatively speaking, to the other great lakes, is in fairly good shape. There are some real challenges there that we have to address in the future. But as a great as-- among the great lakes, it is the cleanest, but also because of the huge volume of water and the depth and the coldness of the water, it takes a very significant amount of time for any improvement to occur once we have polluted it. So Lake Superior is definitely different from those other lakes lower down.

GAYLE COYER: Yeah, I'd like--

CATHERINE WINTER: You run into problems-- I'm sorry. Go ahead, Gayle Coyer, in Thunder Bay.

GAYLE COYER: Yeah, I would like to add on to what Kurt said. And I think that I agree with Kurt and I think our challenge to protect Lake Superior is different than the challenge of protecting the other great lakes, where the story is how do you clean up and remediate. The challenge to protecting Lake Superior is how do we maintain the high water quality that we currently have. What kind of protection protective measurements do we put into place so that Lake Superior is protected from now into the future. And that is just the greatest challenge as cleaning up a polluted area. And it's very hard for our government agencies and for local officials to think about protecting Lake Superior into the future and to put those protective measures into place now so that our lake doesn't become degraded.

KURT SODERBERG: And it also--

CATHERINE WINTER: Kurt Soderberg.

KURT SODERBERG: It also puts a greater burden on all of the citizens who live around Lake Superior because the pollution that's coming-- into Lake Superior is coming from all of us. And it's going to take a lot more effort on all of our parts to live our lives differently than we have in the past, or maybe the people can live in some other areas because we have to-- we have a special resource we have to protect and we have to live our lives in a different way. We have to accept a different kind of protection for Lake Superior in the products we use and the practices that we have.

GAYLE COYER: And I think that gets into land--

CATHERINE WINTER: Gayle Coyer.

GAYLE COYER: I think that gets into land use as well. When we're talking about the type of development we want to see in the North Shore, it's not an anti-development type of mentality. But what it is, is that we have to have appropriate planned development. And that means if there's areas where septic sites shouldn't be sited, then there should be no residential homes or resorts there. We should have proper wastewater treatment systems. And it's also very important to cluster development. So we don't have this strip kind of development along the shore, but instead, so we have little nodes of development and then wilder areas in between.

BARRNEY PEET: I'd like to comment on that, Catherine.

CATHERINE WINTER: That's Barrney Peet in Grand Marais.

BARRNEY PEET: Yes, I think there have been some very positive aspects to the development that's taken place on the North Shore because Cook County has had the foresight to do some planning in that area. You can't even get a permit for a residence or any kind of building permit, whether it be commercial or residential, without having your sewer system and your well tested and approved.

And in most cases, many of the old systems really were failing and were causing a lot more pollution. I can remember growing up as a child and watching raw sewer washing right into the Poplar River, and those things just aren't occurring anymore. Now that we're putting in some state of the art buildings and residences, I think we've actually been able to improve the quality of the water in Cook County.

And then in Grand Marais with the additional tax base that's been generated, we have a state of the art sewer treatment plant that's less than 10 years old. So I think that there have been some positive benefits to the growth that's occurred in the area.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, let's go briefly back to the telephones for another listener question. Go ahead, please.

AUDIENCE: Hello.

CATHERINE WINTER: Hello.

AUDIENCE: Hello, yes, I noticed that the development on the North Shore is probably inevitable. And I'm wondering what areas of the country they're looking to in order to get ideas and models for that development. You mentioned the Colorado ski resorts. I think of New England, which resembles the North Shore in geographical characteristics. I also recently saw a milepost type of publication which is similar to something out of Alaska's tourism department where they tell you what's at every milepost. What kinds of things are you looking at and where? Thank you. I'll hang up.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, maybe we could pitch that question to Barrney Peet. And I understand you're with your colleague Bob Ryan, too, up in Grand Marais. And maybe you could tell us what models you're looking at in deciding how development should be restricted or allowed.

BARRNEY PEET: I think Bob and I both have some comments on that. First of all, when I left to go to school, back in 1965, I went to graduate school in Colorado and moved in to the area and stayed for almost 20 years. And it was exposed to a lot of the environmental programs that were used in Colorado. You may have heard of the Danish plan, which was a growth limitation program that occurred in Boulder County.

And so we have looked at some of the features of what they're doing. And there is less than 5% of the 80 miles of shoreline in Cook County that are even eligible for development. And we've also looked at cities like Carmel, Aspen, Vail, back on the East Coast, and we've tried to take the steps that would preserve as much of the environment as we can. And I know that Bob has got an interesting sewer treatment plant up at his place, and I think he might want to comment on that.

BOB RYAN: Yes, Catherine.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, Bob Ryan.

BOB RYAN: This is Bob Ryan from Grand Marais. Just one other example of a development that is, I think noteworthy is a development called Seaside down in Florida. It's an internationally known development that was done within very strict design standards. And in fact, placed very little of the construction on the ocean so that most of that oceanfront was free and. development happened off of the ocean. It was just there last spring. And it's really a great example of a development well done.

What Barrney was mentioning in terms of sewer treatment plants, our particular resort is the Village Inn resort located up on the ski hill, Lutsen mountain. We have a pond type of septic treatment center, and we received an award from the MPCA last year for our excellence in compliance. We're proud of that.

CATHERINE WINTER: Well, now I'm going to interrupt you because I understand my colleague Rachel Reabe is standing by there at the Blue Water Cafe in Grand Marais and has some people to talk with. Rachel.

RACHEL REABE: Hello, Catherine. There's a lot of roasted chicken and hot turkey sandwiches going down here at the Blue Water Cafe, which is busy today. And the waitresses tell me that it's going to remain very busy for the next couple of weeks as the colors come into their full peak, then perhaps dropping off a little bit and coming back strong as soon as the ski season gets started at Lutsen.

I have Nancy Bloomquist with me at the table and I found her out on the streets of Grand Marais this morning. She's been coming up here for 15 years. She lives in the Twin Cities, and I thought she might have an interesting perspective on how she's seen things change. Nancy, first, tell us what you're doing up here on the shore?

AUDIENCE: Primarily coming up for my annual visit in the fall to do some hiking and sightseeing and just taking in the shore. It gives me a very spiritual energy.

RACHEL REABE: And in those 15 years, Nancy, what would you characterize as the major changes that you've seen on the North Shore?

AUDIENCE: Primarily in terms of much more development and commercialism that is taking place. More people are in the area and the tourism is up. I think more people know about the area and are visiting it.

RACHEL REABE: When are more people too many people? Speaking to you as a tourist who was one of the people that's coming up here, when do you say we've lost what we were coming away from.

AUDIENCE: That's a good question, because there are certain areas in the world that you want to think are rare and a treasure and that few people know about. And so there is a time when the population gets a bit too great and you don't feel that there's a secluded place you can go to anymore. You're running into people. We came up primarily during the week for the intention of running into less people versus the weekends, so that when we were on a hiking trail yesterday, we saw very few people and that was our intent.

RACHEL REABE: So if you schedule it right, you can still get away from the people.

AUDIENCE: I think so. I think so.

RACHEL REABE: Great. Now we'd like to talk to Dan Riddle, who is actually the manager of this Blue Water Cafe. Dan, in the years that you've been here, has the style of tourism changed? I've heard people say, well, the Ma and Pa resorts are gone, that we're coming in at a much higher caliber than we used to be.

DAN RIDDLE: I'd say from 1986 to today that a lot of the people that are coming up for vacation are single, as they call them, yuppies. And in the fall, a lot of the senior citizens still come up, but they're coming up in bigger numbers than they have in the past.

RACHEL REABE: So we've gone from coffee to cappuccino?

DAN RIDDLE: Yeah, that's very good.

RACHEL REABE: And has that been a positive change, a negative change, or just simply a change.

DAN RIDDLE: That's a good change, at least from my aspect, because there's more people. It gives more jobs to the people that I have here. They make better money year round instead of just in June, July, and August. We now can go through the fall and into the winter, and everybody's lifestyle and ability to enjoy life themselves has improved greatly.

RACHEL REABE: Dan, we always hear people whenever they mention tourism as an economy, someone's always right there saying yes, but those are service level jobs, those are minimum wage jobs. Those are no benefit kind of jobs. How would you respond to that?

DAN RIDDLE: I think the industry on the North Shore is changing each year in that our customers expect higher quality and they understand that we also in the service industry have to live a higher standard of living. And we've seen that in the last couple of years through different changes in the way the wages are paid, the ability of the owners to contribute to that wage standard.

RACHEL REABE: So you think that people can make a living in the service industry and in the tourism industry up here?

DAN RIDDLE: Yes, we do it here very well.

RACHEL REABE: Great. And we're going to talk lastly to Robert Evans, who has just come out of the Canoe Country. He grew up in Duluth, lives in the Twin Cities now. He's retired and tells me that he has been coming to North Shore for 60 years. Sir, you told me that it's changed, but it can never change that much. Why?

AUDIENCE: I feel that the North Shore is a sturdy, rock bound coast and is pretty hard to damage severely. And I think that people have mainly respected it too. Most of us like it and those who don't generally leave.

RACHEL REABE: Somebody told me that this is protected by its sheer geography, that we are so far from the Twin Cities that halts a lot of people that might be coming up here. Would you agree with that? It's a long drive up.

AUDIENCE: That's one factor. But then also among the varieties of people, there aren't so many of us that like this area.

RACHEL REABE: In terms of the past 60 years, what have been the most dramatic changes that you've seen?

AUDIENCE: Well, I don't remember when the aerial bridge was changed, but that used to be a car that traveled forth and back. And one way at a time and then occasionally letting a ship go by. And that's one big change. The industrial change has been the depletion of the rich hematite ore on the range. And after World War II, our Irish fraction of the National steel output was decreased. It's probably less than half now, and it decreased quite quickly to about half. The process they use on the taconite was developed by Davis in the--

RACHEL REABE: And it's changed remarkably.

AUDIENCE: --university.

RACHEL REABE: Would you say that you fear for the quality of water in Lake Superior or are you as confident about its ability to retain its quality as you are about the North Shore to stand?

AUDIENCE: I think it's both that it's a large and deep body of water, mainly about 40 degrees Fahrenheit all year round. And on the other hand, I think it needs help. We can't press our luck too much.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you very much, Robert Evans. I'm Rachel Reabe and we're at the Blue Water Cafe in Grand Marais. Catherine, we're going to send it back to you now in Duluth.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, Rachel, please send us some hot beef sandwiches too. We don't have any lunch here at the Canal Park Marine Museum, but we do have quite a spectacular view. It's still very cloudy and gray, and we can see an amazing view of the lake all the way out to the horizon from here. And we're hoping perhaps a ship will pass through and honk at us while we're broadcasting.

We're talking today about Lake Superior, development on the lake, the health of the lake. I wanted to respond to some of the things that Rachel's guests talked about. Gayle Coyer, I wonder what you think about the idea that it's solid and rocky and would be hard to harm Lake Superior and its shores. Is it a more fragile ecosystem than it appears to be?

GAYLE COYER: I think there are certain aspects of the Lake Superior ecosystem that are fragile. There's Lake Superior is what they call an oligotrophic lake. It's very cold. It's very lifeless in most of the lake. And most of the life in the lake is in the nearshore area and in the area where the lake meets the land. That's where you'll find most of the species, both fish and plant and animal. And so that's why even though the lake itself is very huge, the largest lake in the world by surface area, it still is very, very fragile when you think about that very, very narrow band where most of the lives.

CATHERINE WINTER: I did some work before this broadcast talking about exotic species with a number of people. And what I was really impressed with was the idea that now that this lake is connected out to the ocean, it's changed forever. The shipping industry has changed it forever.

GAYLE COYER: That's true. And I'm sure we'll continue to see changes as new exotics come in. There have been some recent changes in how ships have to, for example, change their ballast water before they enter the Great Lakes in an effort to try and keep down some of the exotics. But you're absolutely right. Some of the exotics that we have in the lake now have changed the lake probably forever.

CATHERINE WINTER: Kurt Soderberg here in Duluth told me before our broadcast that he deals less with exotic species and more with exotic feces. But--

KURT SODERBERG: You weren't supposed to say that on the air, though.

CATHERINE WINTER: Well, I shouldn't have attributed it to you anyway.

KURT SODERBERG: Oh, no, that's OK.

CATHERINE WINTER: But I know we have talked quite a bit about sewage, and I'd like to ask you whether-- how much of the pollution problem in Lake Superior really has to do with sewage and how much does it have to do with other things being dumped into the lake?

KURT SODERBERG: And I think there's some debate or some dispute about that. But some of the numbers that we've heard on at our advisory forum is that large amounts of the things that are affecting Lake Superior are coming in from areas not directly from discharges and municipalities and industries into Lake Superior. We've got some historical problems that are still causing us problems in some of the rivers and some of the harbors.

But a lot of what we're seeing on some of the chemicals of concern, the 9 on the binational program, are coming in through airborne pollution. We're seeing it in the precipitation that's coming in. So it's an area that's being impacted by all of the things around the Great Lakes basin. And that's a concern for us on the forum because there's only so much impact that we can have by changes of things that we as citizens do on the shores of Lake superior.

And we really need cooperation from those areas apart from Lake Superior and the other Great Lakes to make a greater impact on reducing the pollution, particularly things like mercury, PCBs, some of the other materials that we're talking about for reduction.

CATHERINE WINTER: Go ahead. Where are you calling from?

AUDIENCE: I'm calling from Michigan.

CATHERINE WINTER: All the way from Michigan. Well, thanks for calling in. Do you have a question or a comment?

AUDIENCE: I have questions and comments. My concern is that nothing is being said about the mess that reserve mine has done to that beautiful body of water.

CATHERINE WINTER: Would any of our guests like to talk about that? Gayle Coyer, are you familiar with that issue?

GAYLE COYER: Yes, I am. I don't know if, Kurt, you had a couple of comments first.

KURT SODERBERG: No, go ahead, Gayle.

GAYLE COYER: OK.

CATHERINE WINTER: Straight to you, Gayle Coyer, in Thunder Bay.

GAYLE COYER: Yeah, for years, reserve mining dumped taconite tailings into Lake Superior. And the biggest problems with the dumping of the tailings wasn't so much highly poisonous toxics. It was low levels of metal and then organic matter that got into the lake. And also associated with that were some asbestos like fibers, which in some cases can cause lung cancers. And the company originally thought that those fibers and those tailings would just settle to the bottom.

And as we saw, they didn't. They spread quite a ways down the Lake Superior shoreline. It's been about 20 years now since the biggest amount of dumping. And from what I understand, the EPA continues to monitor the situation. And there hasn't been any impact on any drinking water supplies in the area. And so it appears that the lake was able to take care of that particular problem because it was stopped in time and it didn't involve any of the most highly toxic pollutants.

KURT SODERBERG: And that's also when we've talked about it with our forum and also what you hear in the area here, that it was a problem that was dealt with. There were changes that were made. And it doesn't appear as if there are any long-term effects that the lake has suffered because of it. Now, it appears that we are on two different issues that are of more pressing concern.

CATHERINE WINTER: But, Kurt Soderberg, it does bring up a question. Even if you do have new laws in place that prohibit dumping certain things into the lake and attempt to reach what they call zero discharge, not putting anything more into the lake, what do you do about the stuff that's already there?

KURT SODERBERG: And that's something that, in particular, the remedial action plans are dealing with. There are a number of areas of concern around the Great Lakes and around Lake Superior trying to deal with the historical problems. There is a RAP or Remedial Action Plan in process here for the St. Louis river, and they're doing a lot of things to look at, cleaning up the old problems and trying to stop new problems. There's another one in Thunder Bay and other sites around Lake Superior. Gayle is familiar with the one, I believe in the Upper Peninsula.

GAYLE COYER: Yeah, there's two in the upper Peninsula.

KURT SODERBERG: And so there is a process ongoing to try to clean up those areas at the same time as avoiding future problems.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, you're listening to a special Mainstreet Radio broadcast live from Thunder Bay, Grand Marais, and Duluth. We're talking today about Lake Superior. And I understand we have a number of callers who have been patiently waiting to get their questions and. Go ahead, please. Where are you calling from?

AUDIENCE: Yes, I'm calling today from Coon Rapids. And I've recently returned to Minnesota after being in California for 22 years. And I'm a former resident of Duluth, and I'm fairly acquainted with the North Shore and the surrounding area. I want to make several comments about what I've seen impact the state of California in some-- what used to be some very pristine regions. And that's my concern for the North Shore in Minnesota.

Particularly, Yosemite Park, there was a time when you could drive-through Yosemite Park pretty much unrestricted, and it was a very enjoyable tour. Now it's closed to automobiles. And they allow buses only because of the tremendous impact that people and automobiles and just the overall traffic in general have had on the area. It really endangered it.

Another area that I was quite familiar with was the Napa valley, which is a great wine area and grape growing region in Northern California. And when people started flooding in from the San Francisco area due to development and industrialization in that area, it became a very negative factor to tourism and actually become almost a blight.

And my concern is that we don't let this happen in Minnesota. So I guess my question for your people on the panel today is, are they for a regulated amount of growth with certain restrictions or is it going to be unregulated and unbridled? And I'd like to listen to the comments. Thank you very much.

BARRNEY PEET: Catherine, I--

CATHERINE WINTER: Why don't we go first to Barrney Peet and ask what-- in Grand Marais and ask what your reaction is to that.

BARRNEY PEET: I think that we're very concerned about what form growth will take. And the people that live in the area and those of us that live and work here and try and have our businesses function have to be very careful about what happens, you know, with this development. So we're taking as many precautions as we can in the form of zoning regulations, other environmental regulations. And so we are concerned about it and we want to make sure that it doesn't become a blighted area. So I think we have a very vested interest in what happens. What do you think, Bob?

BOB RYAN: Well, Catherine, I think we have to keep things in--

CATHERINE WINTER: Bob Ryan.

BOB RYAN: --keep things in perspective. In all of Cook County, there's just over 80 miles of shoreline on Lake Superior. Of that, fully 25% to 30% is publicly owned. As Barrney mentioned earlier, only 5% is commercial or resort commercial zoned. And so the fear of this proliferation of major developments in walls of condominiums is frankly, I think, unfounded. It doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned and we shouldn't work together and jointly to make sure that future development happens appropriately and is well done. But to suggest that the North Shore will ever become like Yosemite, I think is really an unfounded fear.

CATHERINE WINTER: Now, Gayle Coyle in Thunder Bay, I wonder if we can talk not just about development and the building of buildings, but about the impact that sheer numbers of people have on an area when they come to visit. I know that the state parks along Minnesota's North Shore are terribly heavily used and that there are concerns about perhaps a need to restrict the number of people who are tromping those trails. Do you see something like that in Minnesota's future?

GAYLE COYER: I think it's really hard to restrict the amount of people. I think that what usually happens is that if an area becomes too inundated with people, then that type of person who doesn't enjoy recreating with all those people will just go somewhere else. They'll just find a new area. So I think to me the real problems is not with the numbers of people because people have choices of going to areas. My real issue is with the land use and with the environmental impacts that are associated with it.

BARRNEY PEET: Catherine, this is--

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, let's--

BARRNEY PEET: Catherine, this is Barrney.

CATHERINE WINTER: Go ahead.

BARRNEY PEET: I just had one comment with regard to the area that we have up here. There are many parts of Cook County that are actually more remote than the BWCA. And so I think that we're very fortunate to have the wide open spaces that we do have. So for those people who feel they're finding too many people meeting them on the trail, there are a lot of places to go in Cook County that are even less populated than the boundary water area.

CATHERINE WINTER: Yes, it's interesting. You set aside an area and call it wilderness. And so everyone goes there and leaves the areas that are not wilderness to the few who check those out, huh?

GAYLE COYER: That's really--

CATHERINE WINTER: I think we have a few more callers on the line who would like to ask questions. Let's take the next caller. Where are you calling from?

AUDIENCE: From Finland, Minnesota.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK. And what's your question?

AUDIENCE: I'd like to bring up another source of pollution along the shore, and that would be the Air Guard out of Duluth. The noise levels are getting just ridiculous here the last couple of years. I mean, it's louder than a chainsaw. And it's continuing four days a week into the evenings. It's really stressing out a lot of people around here.

CATHERINE WINTER: So a noise pollution as opposed to a water or air pollution, huh? I don't suppose that's something you deal with, Kurt Soderberg.

KURT SODERBERG: One that I wouldn't even want to try to tackle.

CATHERINE WINTER: Dealing with the solids and the liquids, but not the air.

BARRNEY PEET: Catherine, I think we've been pretty lucky in Cook County--

CATHERINE WINTER: This is Barrney Peet?

BARRNEY PEET: Yes, this is Barrney.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK.

BARRNEY PEET: We haven't heard all these airplanes. I do remember back in the '50s, when the military used to practice target shooting over the lake, but I can't remember the last time I really heard a jet go overhead.

GAYLE COYER: This is Gayle Coyer. I live about seven miles from K.I. Sawyer Air Force Base in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. And it's been the same type of situation in Michigan with the B-52 bombers and their training flights over the lake and over the city of Marquette. K.I. Sawyer will be closing down in less than a year.

And so the training flights have already stopped. And you can really-- it makes a lot of difference in terms of less noise pollution. There were some plans to have low level flights all the way from Michigan through Wisconsin and over to Minnesota. But with the help of some legislators, those kind of low level flights are stopped. So I agree it's a-- noise pollution is an issue that needs to be addressed.

CATHERINE WINTER: But apparently with some changes in the military, you're seeing some changes in your life, too.

GAYLE COYER: Yes, that's true.

CATHERINE WINTER: Let's go back to the telephones and ask another listener to give us your call or question. Go ahead, please.

AUDIENCE: I'm calling from Minneapolis.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK.

AUDIENCE: My question is directed towards anyone on the panel really. Do you feel that any harbor develop will continue North of the Duluth area along the lines of what has occurred on the Wisconsin side of the lake and the Bayfield area for leisure, sailing and boating? I'll hang up and listen.

CATHERINE WINTER: That's true. We haven't addressed that question of whether there will be more harbors along the North Shore. Kurt Soderberg, do you know anything about that?

KURT SODERBERG: That's not an issue for me--

CATHERINE WINTER: Not yours. How about Gayle Coyer?

KURT SODERBERG: Maybe I have nothing to talk about.

GAYLE COYER: I-- I know that this is a very strongly felt issue for a lot of people on the North Shore of Minnesota. And there's a great number of people who feel that there has been a [INAUDIBLE] of harborage plan and that this plan would continue take away from that wildness and remoteness of the Lake Superior shoreline. I know--

CATHERINE WINTER: Now this is the plan that some people would like to see, what they call safe harbors put in along the lake so that boats in trouble could duck in.

GAYLE COYER: That--

CATHERINE WINTER: Other people see this as an excuse to just build more harbors along the shore.

GAYLE COYER: Well, a lot of people have no problem with good, safe harbors going in where there's existing development in the cities that already exist. The problems that people have are putting in new harbors where there previously have been no harbors. For example, Sugarloaf Cove, which is just an incredible treasure. It's just a beautiful little cove. And that was one of the places slated. And I think that idea has since been dropped. So again, I think the thing that I would like to stress is it's not an anti-development type of sentiment, but it's an appropriate development, put development where it already exists instead of moving into new wild areas.

CATHERINE WINTER: What's bad about a harbor? Does that have a lot of impact on a bay?

GAYLE COYER: It can have a lot of impact, a lot of noise, a lot of traffic. The types services that may go along with the harbor.

CATHERINE WINTER: So it would bring with it buildings and changes in the shape of the land even possibly.

GAYLE COYER: Yes, it could.

BARRNEY PEET: Catherine, this is Barrney.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK.

BARRNEY PEET: I serve on the Park Board in Grand Marais. And you're right, this has been quite an issue in our community with regard to a harbor of refuge or expanding a marina. And I think that something will happen in the future. But we're trying to go very slowly and very carefully to make sure that we don't ruin the special feeling that people have about the Grand Marais Harbor. But at the same time, I think there are some benefits to having harbors of refuge.

And so I think something will be done in Grand Marais. We already have a commercial harbor. In fact, the Corps of Engineers is here working on our harbor right now. And this has always been a commercial harbor, whether it was for the Americans bringing up supplies and mail or whether it was for the pulp. When I was a youngster, we used to watch them float the pulp logs out of the town. So I think something will happen. And I believe there's something going on in Silver Bay. But I think that we're all trying to be very careful about how we handle that.

CATHERINE WINTER: All right, I think we have time to take a few more questions from listeners before we have to end. Let's go to the next phone call for your question. Go ahead, please.

AUDIENCE: Yes, I'm calling from Deerwood, Minnesota. And I would like to know, is there a place still to exist in Minnesota, especially like along the North shore, where a person can live a very simple lifestyle, like off the grid, 40 acres, maybe an outhouse, kerosene lamps, you know, a more back to the nature kind of that might be the bad word, but not have, you know, everything subdivided into five acre plots with flush toilets. And you have to be a quasi millionaire to live there.

CATHERINE WINTER: Barrney Peet, do you have neighbors who live like that?

BARRNEY PEET: Just a week ago, I was-- my wife and I were invited out to dinner. And they have a very nice outhouse there. And it was just a delightful little log cabin right on Lake Superior.

CATHERINE WINTER: Styrofoam seats help a lot, don't they?

BARRNEY PEET: They do--

CATHERINE WINTER: Throw heat back at you.

BARRNEY PEET: They do help a lot. Although, his wife told me that o'clock in the morning when it was 35 below, that it still was kind of cold out there. So I think there are opportunities for that. And I think Bob had a comment he wanted to make too.

BOB RYAN: Sure, move on up.

CATHERINE WINTER: Bob Ryan, go ahead, please.

BOB RYAN: Move on up. There's plenty of spots for you. We would welcome you.

KURT SODERBERG: And actually--

CATHERINE WINTER: Kurt Soderberg.

KURT SODERBERG: Actually, sometimes, people in Duluth think that that's the way that everyone in Grand Marais lives.

CATHERINE WINTER: You mean, they don't?

[LAUGHS]

OK, so plenty of room, huh? Let's go back to the telephones and take another call. Go ahead, please.

AUDIENCE: Hi, I have two questions. Could you give me an update on the Lake Superior water trail? And really the need for that was because there is so little privately owned land along the Minnesota's North Shore, not necessarily developed, but privately owned.

CATHERINE WINTER: Gayle Coyer, are you familiar with the water trail?

GAYLE COYER: I am somewhat. I know that the work on the trail is still proceeding and that there's a water trail group. A resolution supporting the water trail has been passed by the US Congress. There's a lot of work being put forward on it. And so I think gradually, we'll see over time, I think, we will see a water trail around Lake Superior. I just recently heard someone had a proposal to do a sled dog race around Lake Superior that would rival the Iditarod. So that would be another fun idea.

CATHERINE WINTER: And now the water trail is a different thing from the kayak trail or the idea of a kayak trail?

GAYLE COYER: It's the same thing. It's the same thing.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK. I know my colleague Leif Enger got to do that story. He was looking forward to that. OK, I wanted to ask, as long as we were talking about water quality a few minutes ago. Kurt Soderberg, I wonder if you can tell me about efforts to get rid of toxins that cause fish advisories, toxins such as mercury and PCBs. Maybe you could even tell us what a PCB is to begin with.

KURT SODERBERG: It's something we are talking about a lot on the Lake Superior forum. And it's the thrust of the whole recommendation from the International Joint Commission of zero discharge. And what it doesn't mean it doesn't mean is that we can't put any water into Lake superior, but that we would discharge none of these persistent toxic substances or bioaccumulative substances. The one that seems to cause the most concern, or the two are PCBs and mercury, because they're active fish advisories for those. That doesn't mean that the others are not important.

Mercury, in particular, our forum has been trying to grapple with coming to a consensus and making a recommendation for dramatic reductions in mercury around the basin, hopefully with an impact of having less mercury go into the lakes because we see Mercury fish advisories throughout Minnesota and we see problems with mercury going into Lake Superior.

PCBs are something that's really different because they were used largely in transformers and the electrical industry. PCBs are no longer manufactured. But unfortunately, something like 65% of the PCBs that were manufactured are still in use. And there are proposals to try to dramatically reduce the amount of PCBs so that they can't someday leak into the environment and leak in through the wastewater plant and through sediments or soils and cause more problems. So we're trying to look at some very dramatic recommendations for reductions of these chemicals.

CATHERINE WINTER: What can you do about the sediments that you mentioned? If you try to dredge those up, doesn't that make the problem worse, at least temporarily? Do those stir up in storms, too?

KURT SODERBERG: There's some with storms. And there was just a presentation of the mayor's conference last week. The Great Lakes mayors conference was held here in Superior. And there were several ways of managing them. A lot of it included taking the sediments out and placing them into confined facilities. There are also some studies going on to try to look at treatment of the mercury or treatment of other contaminants that are in the sediments, and that's a lot of what the RAP or the Remedial Action Plans are doing is looking at ways of not having those sediments cause greater problems in the future.

CATHERINE WINTER: What do you do, then? I suppose they have to go somewhere. Where do you take them?

KURT SODERBERG: They have a regular program for contain facilities so that the sediments can go into a place where they will cause no further harm. Also, some of the research is at least talking about the possibility of trying to treat the sediments in place or cover them up with another material so they can stay contained forever and they won't be available for the rains and for being stirred up by the liners.

CATHERINE WINTER: I should ask Gayle Coyer in Thunder Bay whether you had anything to add to that. Is that a particular concern of yours?

GAYLE COYER: Yeah, I think Kurt explained that very well. One thing that I would like to mention, though, because we have been talking a lot about land use and resorts and septic tanks and things like that, and it's really important to understand that there's different types of pollution. And when we're talking about pollution that comes from resorts or from residential homes, we're talking about-- we're not talking about toxic pollutants like mercury and PCBs.

We're talking more things like solids and suspended solids and things like that, nutrient type of things, and a well-regulated wastewater treatment plant or a good septic system will take care of that type of pollution. It's the persistent toxic pollution, the kind of pollution that builds up in the food chain that is the most serious type of pollution that's affecting Lake Superior today.

And it's absolutely essential that we adopt a strategy of zero discharge in order to get rid of toxic pollution. Because you can have the best wastewater treatment system in the world and you're still not going to get rid of that toxic pollution because it's so long lived and it continues to build up in the food chain. So I just wanted to make that point because it's real easy to get confused about pollution, especially when we're talking a lot about land use issues.

CATHERINE WINTER: If Minnesota adopts a policy or adopts laws that restrict what's dumped into the lake, is that harmful to business? Will that make businesses move to other states or maybe even across the border into Canada, where the laws are different?

GAYLE COYER: Well, what we say is for the whole--

CATHERINE WINTER: Gayle Coyer.

GAYLE COYER: --what we say is for the whole Lake Superior basin, we need to have clean production technologies and we need to welcome industry and business into our basin with a clean production technology. Lake superior is special and we need to be able to say no to polluting industries and yes to those industries who want to site in Lake Superior with a clean production technology. And we need to make that choice.

BARRNEY PEET: Catherine?

CATHERINE WINTER: Yes, Barrney.

BARRNEY PEET: This is Barrney. I do have some concerns with regard to sewer treatment and development. We have run into some problems dealing with the MPCA on different ways of treating pollution. And they've been recommending the mound system as the solution for our area. Unfortunately, we sit almost on bedrock and the mound systems are really not always that effective.

And some of the new ones that have gone in have actually failed. And so I wish we could get into partnership with the state in using the latest and best technology for those developments that we do. And I don't think that that's been happening. And it has been a concern for us up here because we want to do the very best job we can of treating our pollutants.

CATHERINE WINTER: OK, Barrney Peet, I'm afraid you get the last word on today's program. This brings us to the end of this special Mainstreet Radio broadcast live from Duluth, Grand Marais, and Thunder Bay. I want to thank all of our guests, Kurt Soderberg, Barrney Peet, Bob Ryan, and Gayle Coyer.

Today's program was produced by Kate Moose, Rachel Reabe, Mike Edgerly, Mary Ann Combs, and Mike McCaul Pengra. Our technical directors today were Randy Johnson and Rick Habzinski in Saint Paul, Rob Habzinski in Thunder Bay, Brian Thomeson in Grand Marais, and here in Duluth, Allan Baker and Dennison Hanson.

The program was edited by Dan Olson. Special Thanks go today to Florian Rausch, Pat Labadie, and Kevin [? Gage ?] here at the Corps of Engineers Canal Park Museum. Minnesota Public Radio's Mainstreet Radio is supported by a major grant from the Blandin foundation, strengthening Minnesota's rural communities through grant making leadership training and conferences. I'm Catherine Winter.