(00:00:00) You know, we've been hearing this week about a deadline for Minnesota school districts and their teachers to reach contract agreements the next two years. I'll reports today indicated least 16 districts in one special education Cooperative failed to settle contracts with your teachers by the state deadline. That means they are out more than 800,000 dollars in state a that's a total. The largest district is to miss the deadline is Duluth which stands to lose more than three hundred eighty thousand dollars in state aid other districts that missed the deadline include Winona and International Falls apparently official counts of school districts that miss the deadline and penalty figures won't be available until districts report to the state. Well, we thought that in light of all the attention this is getting we would devote a program to teachers. What exactly is it that they do what's good and bad about being a teacher and how can the profession be improved if at all here to help sort through? This issue is Robert Austra president of the Minnesota Education Association a former teacher got to start in Cloquet also taught in Mounds View. Also here today is Richard Barbeau. He teaches social studies at the convent of the visitation School in Mendota Heights at Twin Cities. Suburb. Mr. Barbero also taught at Burnsville High School among other places. Mr. Ostrow Blitz, uh, first of all begin with you, let's just want to check with you to make sure the figures that I just gave are correct is that the last count that you have as far as the public (00:01:19) school district? Those are accurate. Those are as well as we can determine. Those are accurate (00:01:25) this deadline concept you think it worked is it from the teachers point of view is that been effective in various districts reaching contract (00:01:32) agreements? Well the first thing Perry the contracts all expired back in July actually June 30th of 93. So they're already six and a half months late, but by and large, I'm a fearful that if we didn't have the deadline we'd have all kinds of places. That weren't settled come May August of 94. I mean that used to be the situation so from the perspective of both Teachers in school districts, I think the deadline law is a very good law because it it does provide for some finality to the process. And that's that's positive (00:02:09) is the issue all money or other other issues involved here. (00:02:13) Well, the big issue this year is I think is money the legislature has frozen the state aid formula for the last three years and that's the lifeblood of the school district and everybody knows that insurance and gas and all that other stuff that they that the school districts have to pay for continue to go up. And so if they don't get any new money into the school district, it really puts tremendous pressure on the board to try and limit their personnel costs. And one way they can do that is try and hold on to keep the salaries down. So it puts a lot of pressure on employers and teachers and that's not fair. I don't think for the legislature to do that. Mr. Barba, you've taught (00:02:56) in public schools. You're now in the private school system. What? I think watching all this does it kind of bring back some memories for you or is and then I want to get it also with either go she ations for private school teachers. Are these similar at all completely different? How do you how do you view all this as you mentioned? I've participated in both when I was in Burnsville. I was a member of the mea and we went to the level of a strike in order to settle a contract at that point in private schools. I believe there's just one locally Breck that has a union otherwise we're all non-union and it's a more of an informal negotiation. We have a group of staff that work with the committee from the Board of Trustees that run the school and we discuss and try to look at Public School prevailing wages and make an attempt to get whatever we can as far as close to it, but it's a more informal process and we certainly don't have any legal protections and sense of or strike opportunities, but most of the time that you're both in it, there's a The approach of you're both in it. It's less employee employer and you try to work out together are the issues the same is it is it money. Usually when you're in contract negotiation it is it wouldn't be salary and benefits work issues are part of it. But the greatest would be salary and benefits and I think in general, I don't think there's any doubt that most private schools the salaries than the average will be less than in public schools and benefits will be less as well. Okay, not surprised. The phone lines are ringing and people are calling in. So let's go to the phone line right away and see what people have to say. Hi. You're a Minnesota Public Radio. I'm calling from Fargo college professor. Anyhow, I'm just wondering for your union official there how the whole supply and demand thing comes into comes into play. I mean, I haven't had a raise in a long time and I don't complain because I know that if I quit there's going to be a hundred people applied and you know, I think Does this come into it at all? Supply and demand? I mean, it seems to me that there's Whenever there is a good opening for a position here in Fargo. There's a lot of people want that job and that really needs to go into the the wages that are paid. If a lot of people want the job the pride of the wage should go down. Mr. Ostrow, (00:05:18) well, the beginning salaries of Minnesota teachers are about 20,000 dollars. So I mean I think supply and demand does affect the the salary at the beginning level. I don't think very many people would argue that a $20,000 wage of those is a very good wage, but that's that's where the prevailing wage is for college graduates. And that's where we start clearly supply and demand is is an impact a lot of the students who are coming out of colleges in Minnesota. If the jobs are already filled by by currently employed teachers many new teachers or people have been trained in teaching are leaving the state to go to Florida or Texas or California because that's where the jobs are (00:06:03) Baba. I wonder about the credentials for a public school teacher what essentially are (00:06:07) they? Well what we have is we have a licensing provision that requires that you go through four years of college. And take necessary courses to be proficient in your subject area and also in the Art and Science of teaching colleges of Education basically graduate the teachers and then they can apply for a license they get their license and then they go out and they seek employment with districts and or with employers and if they're employed then they become a licensed teacher who is also employed. There's a lot of competition for jobs. And one of the factors of the competition means is that I think employers are in a very enviable position to be able to pick from a large number of people and they pick the best of course, and so there's a lot of meritorious selection that's going on in placement of new people into positions and in schools and both public and private (00:07:08) Richard of any different credentials. You need to be a private school teacher the private schools in Minnesota may not necessarily have The follow the exact same state rules, but we're accredited visitation both by north-central accrediting agencies. Well as Minnesota Independent Schools, and so the staff would be certified and it's you mentioned every five years you learn renewal since I graduate from University of Minnesota Masters plus 30 semester hours last (00:07:35) summer. I took eight credits and graduate (00:07:37) courses and I think this is very common for foremost staff to maintain their credentials, but also to update themselves continually in earning credits and it also moves you across the lane as far as salary. What's the biggest difference between being a public school teacher and a private school teacher (00:07:54) Ike I think of several (00:07:56) differences one is a commonality of values. Generally that you would find in a private school. The school is organized for a purpose in our case a silesian Christian philosophy dedicated primarily in the upper school to education of young women, the only single sex school left in Minnesota for young women, so we have a Cooking philosophy and a common Bond and values to work with and that's one thing that I think is maybe more common in in private schools the support and input from from parents. They're paying tuition above and beyond what they pay for taxes. There's a commitment there in a part of their children class size is a major factor. I also have a child in the public school system in Minneapolis public schools and worked actively on the referendum to reduce class size in public schools. I think that is I see a about less than 100 students per day in a private school when I taught at Burnsville. I was seeing a hundred and fifty students per day that is a major differences Fires at work load and your Effectiveness. Let's go back to the phone lines. Hi. You're on Minnesota Public Radio. Yes, this is Robert from Culver Minnesota. Hi Duluth recent first a slight statement Duluth recently hired and administrator. 8,000 a year and he's done. No good at all is the union trying to reform this program and putting some kind of a cap on these kind of Administrators. It's not he doesn't really teach he doesn't really do anything for this territory (00:09:32) Bob. Well, I like you first off the hiring of an Administration and teachers for that matter is the is the province of the school board or the superintendent? Probably the school board and the superintendent unions can do a lot of things to try to improve things in schools. But we basically leave the employment of Administrators to the superintendent and the end the school board. Although under site based decision making staff and parents are having a greater input into the selection of building site administrators. And I think that's a very positive new. Development in public education (00:10:19) our subject today is Teachers. We are talking with Robert ostrow president of the Minnesota Education Association and Richard Barbeau teaches social studies at a private school in Mendota Heights back to the phones higher of Minnesota Public Radio. Hello, my fiancé has graduated from the University of Minnesota with more than one degree in education, and she is currently trying to seek employment as a teacher in the Twin Cities area. However, she has three Advantage disadvantage is going against her. She's white she's female and she doesn't have experience. She's just recently gotten into as a substitute teacher in the Minneapolis school system. What else can she do to get noticed? What else can she do to quote unquote Network to get a job as a teacher in the Twin Cities area might be a good review Richard. Well, one of the things would be to try to substitute it as many So as possible and as many schools to make yourself available depending upon her degree and certification to get involved in a professional organization, whether it's social studies our elementary teachers to meet people through that with their conventions and conferences and to use as many of the resources, of course in the college, but the substituting as much as she can get in and get to know teachers and people in those buildings the best chance you will have it's still a situation of who you know, that will give you an opportunity. I think you bought okay (00:11:46) good. The other part of that is I agree with substituting what what happens when you substitute as you get a chance to show your skills and it's important to to do well when you're substituting to relate well with the teachers and you get an opportunity to meet the principles and basically the principles are the people who make the hiring decisions at the school level. The other part of this whole thing is that we're going to have a major change of the Guard. The Core teaching is going to change dramatically the next I'd say five six years. So there's going to be a lot of job openings in Minnesota mainly because our teaching Corps in Minnesota is rather mature relative to the rest of the country and so we'll have a fairly substantial change over on teaching staffs. We heard about the plight of the gentleman the gentleman that just called and (00:12:38) I'm wondering how difficult is it and you kind of touched on it, but I want to focus more in how hard is it to move from District to District say one spouse gets a position in a different town and then they want to go to followed that person get a job in that Community. How hard is that? Is it (00:12:54) very very difficult? I think it's real hard and the reason is is because there's such an intense competition based on Talent. There are clearly more people who would like the jobs in there are jobs and as a result school districts really are in a very enviable position to be able to choose from a large number of people and of course they try to pick the people in their Who are best qualified for the positions? That's a very good position for employers to be in back to Old Richard (00:13:23) can give you an example of that when I left Burns balloon 1918 was offered a job by the Rosemont School District, but it was only if I was willing to pretty much ignore previous nine years of experience that they would put me on a scale of a two-year experience teacher. They felt I was the best qualified teacher but did not want to pay me for that and it was they were in a situation where they were other people they could get who would take less money. And so I chose to turn the job down. All right back to the phones. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio. Hi, this is Mike from Saint Cloud. Just briefly. I'm a college educated person in my mid-30s and what strikes me about teachers salaries at least in Minnesota is I do believe that in the 50s and 60s teachers were paid relatively poorly compared to other college educated professionals, but I think since the early Is this has been corrected and I'm concerned that perhaps in the educational Community. There's a real misperception about the value of a college degree on today's employment market and that perhaps there is a well just some inaccurate Notions about to say what a college degree will bring in terms of pay and perhaps teachers need to update their view of what non teaching professionals get paid and you know update their salary expectations accordingly. That's my comment. I'll hang up and listen. Thank you (00:14:51) you Bob. Well my comment on that would be the settlements this year have been roughly about one and a half percent for the first year 93 94 and about two or two and a quarter percent for 94 95 over the two years. Generally. The increases will be about 4 percent for the little less than 4% for the two years. I don't think God teachers are out of not working in the real world or don't understand the economics of the situation. Certainly. They realize that the district's didn't have a lot of money and they've basically accepted fairly modest settlements over the next two years at little less than to 4% for the two-year time frame (00:15:39) Richard. How do you answer? I'm sure you're asked all the time. You're told probably that your overpaid. How do you usually answer folks? Actually I defend yourself. Actually. I don't hear that very often and I don't think most people perceive teachers generally like police officers and other areas. I usually hear you're underpaid and overworked yet a pay increase particularly Public School teachers comes out of people's pockets. It's a property tax. It's the one tax referendums excetera that they can say. No, they can't say no about other taxes and so an increase in teachers and support in those salaries directly. Their pocketbook maybe a little more quickly. And so even though I don't hear that you're being overpaid. They know what an increase in salary will mean it is Bob mentioned earlier is starting teacher coming out and making around $20,000 a year. I don't see is unrealistic or overpaid or not necessarily underpaid it's a decent wage for to start out but many in business and other areas will be starting out at that or or higher. Well, how about the claim that teachers only work nine months is that is that a valid (00:16:44) claim? Well certain oftentimes. I'm sure it's valid. It's a fact. Yeah. The point is is a the people I go to coffee sometimes in the morning and people present that to me and what they don't understand is teachers do not determine their work schedule. The work schedule is determined by the employer. The employer is our school boards in the state legislature if they wanted schools to be operated 12 months a year. It's totally within their power to have a 12 month year. The terms and conditions of employment for teachers and particularly the school year is set by the school authorities. Basically the governor the legislature the commissioner of Education the State Board of Education the local school districts. (00:17:30) So I was around this issue quickly about the proposal for all year round school teachers think it's a good idea. (00:17:38) I've been to California. I went to the National year round school conference a couple years ago and I was very interested in that question and interestingly enough most teachers before they've had experience with year-round school are not too excited about it. But in Los Angeles where they've been doing it for quite a few years eighty percent of the teachers on surveys don't want to return to traditional year. So basically what happens is I think our folks in Minnesota if you're around school is established. I think they will accept it and make it work and feel good about it the Just for teachers is a gives them some extra flexibility. One of the interesting things that happened in California where they got involved with year-round schools is the burnout rate among teachers drop dramatically interestingly enough the burnout rate for administrators increase dramatically. So there are there are many positive impacts one of the interesting things that everybody should understand though is the studies in California clearly indicate that if you go to your round school, we will not see an increase in student achievement. That is one of the common things that people think happens, but it doesn't happen. Basically the kids don't go to school more what happens is the facilities get operated on a year-round basis and you increase the carrying capacity of the facility of the school building from roughly 65 or 70 percent to up closer to a hundred percent the big stink stimulus in California for year-round schools is about 200,000 new. Coming into the California school system annually as a result of in migration from Mostly other (00:19:21) countries back to the phone lines. How your own Minnesota Public Radio. Thank you. I have two very quick questions for the public school person. The first one is rather than talking always about starting salaries for which a teacher is only at a starting salary for a matter of seconds. Why don't you give us a meaningful figure which of course would be the median salary item to you've been we've been reading about the contract settlement deadline that has just been passed here. I'm interested. If you can tell me who advocated the law that imposed a penalty on one side of a labor negotiation if they don't settle who advocated for it. I'm sure the teachers union supported it. Can you give me any example where government so blatantly joins on one side of a labor negotiation and as an analogy suppose we passed a law. That said to the union cited in a negotiation. If you don't settle by a given deadline will shoot you in the head. Do you think that would be a Fair Labor negotiation? (00:20:26) Well, obviously, I don't think I want to get shot in the head ha ha ha. I assume you're using the plural you not the singular you let's let's go through it real quick starting salaries in Minnesota roughly start in the $20,000 range low 20s, the highest teacher salary in Minnesota. Probably be about 52 or 53 thousand the me. The average salary is about 37 thousand dollars a year on the high side. We have teachers working in some small school districts in Southwestern, Minnesota Who start about 20 and go to about 28,000 that's their career salary and then you have some school districts in the metropolitan area where they start around 20 and go up into the low 50s. 50s so that's the that's the salary schedule picture for Minnesota teachers as far as the deadline January 15th deadline that was not a teacher proposal by either of the two teacher organizations. It was a proposal that came out of the legislature interestingly enough. We weren't sure it was a good idea when it was first established and we were we fought it and were reluctant to accept it because we thought if there should be a deadline it shouldn't be January. It should be a great debate. It should either be June 30th or maybe early September mid-september something like that. So this was an imposed idea coming out of leadership in the Senate and the house and after experimentation with it. We think it makes a lot of sense at least it brings finality to the process. And so I personally think it's a good piece of work. I know some people say it's unfair For the penalty to be placed on the employer the I personally believe that the employer has a great deal to do with getting the settlement the employee group also has it the employer says if you don't settle it comes out of your contract. So in some sense in some places if the penalty is imposed the teacher the teachers may actually take less in as a total settlement package. The key thing is before this law was put in place we had many districts that weren't settled after a year two years in the worst case with Sauk Center that went eight six or eight years without a settlement and that is totally unacceptable. It creates tremendous lack of Harmony within school districts and really causes big problems. (00:23:11) We'd like to hear your questions or comments. So let's go back to the phones Now High here at Minnesota. Grady oh, yeah. Hi. I'd like to find out if there are any alternative ways of obtaining teaching credentials other than the traditional four-year institution as a constant. I see a number of especially students of color that are sort of locked into the metropolitan area can't attend the either either st. Cloud or Mankato and don't for one reason or the other don't wish to attend the U of M. What are the options that they may have? Richard, you know (00:23:46) as far as the public school system, they have to be certified Personnel private schools would have more options. I this is I think Nationwide you seen some adjustments in that as (00:23:57) schools have realized that there are some talented people who can be good teachers who may not meet particular certification that states have set up for good reasons. And here's where at least in in Minnesota would be private schools would be able to take advantage of that to hire those personnel and not have to meet a particular State guideline. But as far as public schools, I would assume they'd still have to meet the certification (00:24:17) requirements. Yeah, the public schools require that anybody working in the school must be licensed. However, there are alternative methods of getting license the the standard method for getting a license has to go to a four-year teacher preparation institution go through the regular coursework receive a degree and apply for a license. There are there are though alternative methods for receiving. Licensing you must work through a regular college and they sometimes give credit for experiential things and they can develop an individualized program that will lead to a licensing for teaching and I think that's been on the books for a long time in Minnesota. (00:25:03) I wanted to ask you about the concept of bringing in people who have pursued other other areas other degrees versus the general education degree or the some of the more normal. I would say or common ways that they become teachers. How about how about the idea of people who are in other areas bringing that into bringing them in to help teach that a good idea? (00:25:23) Well, I think it's it's a wonderful thing for somebody who has been in a different field to want to maybe change occupations and to spend the last 15 or 20 years of their work life as teachers. However, we also believe that it's essential that they are licensed to do that. Um, the reason we feel that is people will say well that's his job protection. But the concept of Licensing or certification is a time-honored idea. There are all kinds of people who would like to be brain surgeons and they would like to make the three or four hundred thousand dollars at these folks make Society doesn't provide them with the you just don't go out and hang up a shingle and say I'm going to be brain surgeon because one of the principal functions of Licensing is quality control. There are there's an awful lot of things that teachers need to know both about their subject matter and also about the how of teaching and that's what the the the teaching programs at in colleges provide. So for example, if you are currently an accountant and you'd like to switch jobs and mid-career and become a math teacher if you have a four year degree, you can you can probably go to many colleges. Is of education and pick up the credentials for teaching in in a in a matter of a year or a year and a half and there's always the other method which is providing for experience through the alternative route to licensing. And so there are options for people who want to make mid-career changes, but one of the key components of Licensing is quality control and we think that's absolutely essential to maintain Back to the phone lines. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio. (00:27:15) Hello, the union representative said that if school boards or the legislature wanted a longer school year that the union couldn't really do anything about that and that it would be up to the school boards and the legislature to determine that I'm not sure I really agree with that and I'd like to know what what the union Union's position is on a longer school year and a longer school day and what influence they have on Local District negotiations and contracts. (00:27:52) Well, I would not I would not mislead anybody to say that if the employer wants to take and lengthen the work year that the the association is very interested in making sure that the people who are members of the bargaining unit get paid additional compensation on a pro rata data on a pro rata basis for the extinction of the Year there clearly are costs but those are subject to local negotiations and I think legislators understand. It's probably unfair to increase a person's work year by 5 or 10 or 15 percent and not provide additional compensation for the additional time. So but basically I think the the position of teachers across the state is is if the employers want to extend the the work year that's they're willing to sit down and talk about that and work something out. Out and I think that's the overall position of most teachers across the (00:28:57) state here talking about teachers today is Robert a strip of the Minnesota Education Association and Richard Barbeau who teaches social studies at a private school in the Twin Cities and would like to hear some questions about private schools all those of you in the audience today. So if you have some questions about the private school system, we'd like to hear from you especially back to the phones now. Hi, you're a Minnesota Public Radio. Hi, I guess my question is a little bit of a follow up to the last caller. I am a teacher and I was just wonder at why so much of the press and so much of the conversation that comes out of teachers has to do with the salary structure and negotiations about those kinds of issues. I too like the other color would like to hear more from teachers about what they think about the quality of Education about extending school years about a lot of issues about what the difference is. I listen to Part a segment earlier about the charter schools and they were talking about the teachers in that I guess. I just like to know why the unions and some of the other organizations don't have more of a voice say more about what teachers are concerned about with issues that directly affect kids not and not just salaries. Thank (00:30:10) you. Two points Perry the the the 93 legislative session was a magnificent session from one point of view as far as school Improvement. They didn't do a good job of providing the money to support it. But there were a couple of things that happen last legislative session that are Monumental one. They passed a major class size reduction act that is unique across the United States of America in we're very pleased about it almost over a hundred million dollars of money new money going into reducing class sizes for the elementary schools across the state. The second point is that they did something that's very revolutionary and they ordered school boards to set aside one percent of their aid money's about $3,000 for for staff development and training in this year and next year. It goes up to 2% And if they continue along that route for five years We'll make for tremendous opportunities for improved training and staff development schools. And I think we're going to see the Improvement in schools. That will be absolutely dramatic because one of the things that has not been funded in Minnesota schools or any of the other schools across the country is the the training component for renewing staff and renewing the public school institution. That is a just a wonderful new development. The second point I'd like to make is the mea is been very active in getting out the message about how we can improve schools. In fact, we're doing 21 Community forums across the state this week and next week in that the title of our program is Minnesota Public Schools, very good and getting better and we have a lot of wonderful things to talk about in Minnesota 91 percent graduation rate. Our kids are at or near the top on math proficiency reading proficiency. SAT scores have gone up for the last three years up up up. And we've just decided that we need to do more to get the good message out about the performance of the schools. But we I want to be very clear about it that we're not satisfied. We know that schools need to prove to improve when we know that we're into not only state by state competition but Global competition for talent the other thing about the Minnesota economy. We've always been into producing low bulk things that have high value and in order to be in that market you have to have a highly educated Workforce. That's what's made Minnesota work in the past and that's what will make Minnesota work in the future and the men and women who work in Minnesota public schools are dedicated to making sure that the kids get educated and are educated on a world class standard. (00:33:09) Yeah. I would like to speak to that in my 23 or 24 (00:33:12) Of (00:33:12) teaching public and private school at the dedication of an average workday of 7:15 to 3:15. And I work a minimum of several hours after that. There's meetings continually the primary focus of a teacher and they wouldn't be in teaching is to work with young people and children and we're here today because the teacher contracts and that's the issue but the day-to-day issue with teachers is working with young people and their committee meetings and they're half hour for lunch and whether they're supervising a lunch parade with 500 junior high students all of these other they're still working with young people and we got it can be a very stressful situation. I'm not nine months of year. But you also work several hours on the weekend correcting papers and you go to school in the summer to maintain your credentials and your license as well as to for your professional growth and a person would not stay in the classroom with young people at least for the vast majority unless they really care about what they're doing with young people and the salary issue. That's the job of a union is to help negotiate and work that issue and It's tangental to what we're doing most of the time and what we're thinking about most of the time which is the children. All right, lots of folks with questions. So let's go back to the phone's High your of Minnesota Public Radio. Actually, I'm one of mr. Barba's former students. I graduated from visitation and I had always sort of wondered this and it's fortunate that I have this chance to ask him. How important do you see back? Mr. Barba an all-women's are all female environment to a woman's education or a tour or a young woman's education. I will head I will hang up and screw back out to my car. Okay. Well we should waste some time here, maybe while she's scary. Yes, go ahead obviously at a visitation. We believe strongly in a women's education. I have experience working at least a dozen years in a co-ed environment and as much as I enjoyed that I can also see the differences in a Single Sex environment for young women the opportunities for them to be the leaders of all the groups to be the math team to compete successfully and not be concerned about some of the other aspects of their social life, but educationally there's some learning differences as more and more studies about that more and more information the enrollment and visitation is better than ever and I think it's reflects the information Nationwide from various studies showing the success of young women the opportunity in a single-sex environment, whether it's science, math or social studies or English to be able to be successful and I think it does give them a growth and respect and self esteem and confidence that they may not it doesn't mean it's for all people because I've worked with young women in a co-ed environment where the was tremendous success as well, but I think we do provide an opportunity for young women and there is a reason for them to maybe take An opportunity in a single-sex environment and we believe it's very successful to development of that confidence and success in future life and college as well as in the community. All right more phone calls. Let's go back now. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio. How do you do fine? How are you? Hey, I've had some recent experiences over the last few years with teachers though. I'm not a teacher and I guess I'm Pauline in reaction to the fellow who sounded a bit angry that he thought teachers were overpaid or what I've observed is course, it's common for people to always assume that that their job is very is very hard and demanding and and everyone else is as easy. So that's a common thing. I think we all see but I've traveled the last two or three years teaching teachers how to use their benefits and so I've been in schools and awful lot and I have been a contractor a carpenter. I've been a stock and bond Broker I have worked with attorneys for hours to settle a States. I've had all kinds of jobs and I have never seen anybody consistently have to put out more than a teacher does and that was a new experience for me to realize that that you're always these teachers for the most part don't have a minute in the day to spare. They come into the lounge. I meet them in alone sometimes and basically I'm talking to for the most part some fairly stressed out exhausted people as far as I'm concerned their job is never away from people. It's always 20 or 30 people hanging on them all day. And that is a very exhausting. Also I rarely meet anyone that's a teacher that is time to see me at night because they take homework at night. And I just wanted to put that out making 30,000 bucks a year is like making about 15 bucks an hour and I don't think that's too much to pay anybody for that kind of work. All right. Thanks for your call. All right, we have talked a lot about salaries. I wonder Bob would you think about Merit pay the concept of Merit (00:38:23) pay? Well, I don't care very much for it, but it isn't it isn't because it's a bad idea. It's at you know, if you're selling cars is pretty easy to determine how many cars you sold. I mean you can call him and if you're in a business where you can keep track accurately of the of the performance, it's one thing but teaching is such a subtle activity you there aren't standard units. I mean, the objective of of a teacher is to help all the kids grow and some kids come to school very capable and other kids come to school with less capability and wounded some are even abused tortured kids by parents and other adults and so growth for kids is various things for various children, and it's very very hard to measure contributions that teachers make And the reason teachers are so concerned about performance pay is because the measurements aren't very accurate and the other piece is there's a tremendous opportunity for favoritism by the people who are handing out the compensation. I think if there was a more a very valid way to measure performance that was generally accepted teachers would not have the concerns they have about Merit pay but given the nature of the teaching function. It's very hard to determine performance and successful performance in I mean, it's the gradations before between teacher performance. So, I think that's that's the principal concern. (00:40:19) I would agree with Bob as far as the subjectivity of evaluating staff in regard to Performance. We've looked at it a visitation discussed it and I was continually surprised by business people who would look and ask if you're doing a better job in your classroom than the teacher across the hall don't you think you should be paid more and I think honestly, I'm not concerned about that. It's not a competitive system. I'm concerned and if that teacher wants with some peer coaching we can work together, but I'm concerned about doing a good job in my classroom and not comparing myself with other staff members and in some ways you may be able to reduce it to some performance criteria and then teachers May if that's what's going to get me more than I can I can do those types of things but it's very subjective area and most teachers. I don't think are concerned about competing with other staff were rewarded for experience and education and maybe down the line. There will be a development of some criteria. That would help. That but most teachers don't look at it in the same vein as people from other environments. Lots of good questions. Lots of good answers is go back to the phones. How your own Minnesota Public Radio. Yes. I'm a former student of mr. Barba's and oh quite the audience today. I'm sorry Alan and just to follow up on what he was just saying. I wanted to congratulate him for being such a wonderful teacher and he really did a good job of bringing in the real world into the classroom are our school was small small classrooms and really encouraged outside learning experience and I think that as well as in a number of other things makes him a really wonderful teacher and I've was really fortunate to have him when I went to visitation. Thanks for your call that leads to a question. I was going to ask to that pertains to that. Our teachers been asked to do more than teach just the general subjects. Obviously a well-rounded education that she received from yourself but is that being more required from teachers? (00:42:19) Certainly, I think and as far as I think caring for calling it appreciate him here soon. Wonderful young woman and very active in the political (00:42:30) Arena, which I'm glad to to see but I think this is something a general issue that teaches of have talked about Nationwide that whether its (00:42:42) support groups or (00:42:43) programs for human relations are Multicultural programs or programs for AIDS education or sex education all staff become involved in (00:42:51) those programs. And and so it's not (00:42:53) an isolated situation where you're teaching history new classroom and you don't do anything else more and more staff are involved in more and more things to as the in school. It becomes an institution that has to make up for some other things that are going on in our society and those of course, they become more stressful when your students are not in your classroom because I have to be elsewhere yet. Those other needs are very important to them and it may be common to talk about a you're not necessarily counselor. But you have to be and these are some of the duties and requirements that are put on (00:43:25) two teachers more and more today than ever before and Bob talked about the the difficulties of (00:43:29) the young people coming to school in the family situations. And it's the teacher day-to-day. It may be their only place of a certain amount of security. Hopefully and where the schedule is the same form and they can count on some people that and that may not be occurring other elsewhere. (00:43:45) Perry I just think back in 1964 when I started teaching the big problems we had was gum chewing and whether or not the kids were quiet in the library and there was some problems with spitting remember that I mean I cannot come on so these are issues that in the mid-70s t-shirts and you know having a commercial message on the T-shirt was a problem in the 80s late 70s kids wearing hats and school, but I mean the kinds of problems our schools and some schools are dealing with today are dramatic and different and their life threatening the use of bringing of guns kids on drugs children having children suicides. I mean the stress level on on faculty and students is greatly changed our I'm what's happening is the society these are not school problems. But these are problems that the kids and their families bring the school and in teachers because they care about children their roles have changed dramatically in addition to trying to teach them. They also have to do nurturing a counseling Crisis Intervention and it is a it's a it's a wonderful job, but it's very taxing and if you care about kids it it it it just rips your heart out but there's no question. The job has changed dramatically institutionally. The institutions have to respond to the changing needs of family. We provide early lunch programs for kids and breakfast programs for kids and so in all kinds of Family Services that just weren't required 20 years ago. So the whole the teacher's job has changed and so as the institutional response (00:45:45) Time for a couple more questions. Hi your own Minnesota Public Radio. Good afternoon. I'd like to comment and a question for mr. A strip. I hear him constantly and I hear all academic administrators in the state level raving about our system and how wonderful we are in reading and writing and math and I guess I'd like to know where they're getting their statistics from I am a college teacher who has taught both at the community college and the university level and still do and I don't find that our students know how to either read write or do math and some of the things that he's just talked about are very true. But we have the same problems even at the college level. It seems to me that we have to look at beyond having wonderful statistics and talking about things like getting real talking about attitudes the effects of learning learning to learn problem solving if you listen to our Secretary of Labor who is in the Twin Cities this week or last week. Mr. Robert Rice that was just Never mind, you know can we add one and one and two and get to and have a wonderful piece of statistic? What are we doing to actually teach people skills to learn rather than getting a wonderful statistic that X percent passed the test and know what one and one (00:46:59) are okay Bob. Well, that's a great question. First off. The data comes from State Department of Education Minnesota for the graduation rate. There's no question. We're number one. The United States Department of Education has established a whole series of testing programs to compare results between states and internationally and the data I talked about the kids being number one or number two in math and reading comes directly from the United States Department of Education. And then there are some very interesting groups like The there's International organizations that are interested in educational performance that we use for our data sources as Is there's no question that many children many youngsters who go on to college are in need of remediation. But I think the other side that a lot of people have to understand is in 1940 25% of the children in the United States are graduating from high school in 1990. We're up around 75 percent across the country and college enrollments have have greatly increased over the last 20 30 40 years the children that are coming to college today include all the really bright kids that used to go to college plus kids who are of average ability Etc. So a lot of the children who are going to college today are our last capable or more average because college education has become much more widespread than it once was so the the effect of that is Colleges need to take and have a broader range of services if you work in a college and you only want to work with the brightest kids. I don't know if that's the reality of college teaching today college is Select out very well. Some private colleges have requirements that kids meet certain criteria non sat or act but the real selection occurs in graduate school now for almost four year institutions. Okay one quick question. How your Minnesota (00:49:19) Public Radio? Hello. Yes question for Richard Burr boo Richard on the father of one of last year's graduates from visitation. I hear a lot about the how much better the private schools are than the public schools do a better job. Could you give you any kind of an objective analysis as to why that happens was I mentioned earlier there are some differences as far as class size and a commonality of values and this is not to negate the success in the public school system. My son goes to a Minneapolis Southwest and a magnet program the in a very pleased with the education but in a private school with the smaller class size and a commitment and a dedication on the part of the students the parents and the total Community does I think make for a more effective environment. We do prepare students very well for college (00:50:20) and (00:50:21) Also, hopefully for life and that doesn't mean that it's not going on in some public schools and many public schools Across the Nation who In fairness must meet many more needs possibly than can be done in a private school, but I'm very I do think that those are the three issues I mentioned before and they helped contribute to a situation that's been very effective environment very (00:50:45) quickly Bob. Well quickly, the mission of the public schools is to every educate every child regardless of their socio-economic background or their capabilities or whether they're handicapped or not handicapped race gender the whole nine yards. I think that the statistics show very clearly that public schools are are terrific for high-level kids, and we are mission is very broad. (00:51:12) All right. Thanks love both of you for joining us today great discussion. Thanks for all the calls also. Thank you. Thanks Robert ostrov with the Minnesota education. Ation and Richard Barbeau teaches social studies at a private school in the Twin Cities.