(00:00:01) It's six minutes past eleven o'clock. I'm Paula Schroeder. Just a second (00:00:05) here. (00:00:08) Thank you. I unplugged my might and my headphones and I couldn't hear any things. So we'll get back into the program here. First of all. Thanks to Parry finale for that news update as well. Well today is November 6th 1993 and it's just about time for the first report cards to start coming home. Most of us start out the school year feeling pretty optimistic about our kids after all it's a new year and any problems that might have cropped up last year won't necessarily recur. Will they? Well, they might if you have a child who ranks average or better on intelligence and skills test but who brings home poor or failing grades if this child also has a short attention span puts off work until the last minute fails to complete assignments for gets a lot and blames other people or circumstances for failures chances are that child is what our guest today calls an underachiever. Dr. David Jackel is the founder and director of the human development Institute in organization that specializes in the identification. Ocean and treatment of Underachievers. Dr. Jackie m is a license Consulting psychologist and received his Doctorate in Clinical Psychology from The Illinois Institute of Technology where most of the research on Underachievers has been done and welcome to midday and Minnesota Public Radio Doctor. Jack's good to be here. Well underachiever is you know, it's one of those unfortunately negative titles or labels that could get put on kids sometimes but it but it's used I understand to describe a pretty definite set of traits these kids hate. I think it's important to understand what that term means in a broad sense an underachiever is any child who shows a consistent pattern of performing at a level below their ability or aptitude but maybe more importantly we can look at some very distinct characteristics that define an underachiever and there are really three very clear ones that we can begin to look at one is a consistent inability to function independently for instance the parent can stand over the child. Make them do their homework every night and it gets done. The teacher can remind the child to take a note home and usually gets done but should the parents top or the teacher forget to remind the child the work doesn't happen. The second characteristic is that most Underachievers are not persistent. They start many things but they don't finish them. They start their homework, but they don't finish it or they finish their homework and they forget to hand it in or their stout and interest in a musical instrument and then lose interest the last characteristic is they generally do not adhere to time limits the usually a day late and a dollar short always asking for extensions beyond that. I think we need to look at underachievement as extending beyond the issue of school and academics. Usually if a child is having trouble in those areas at school, you can see other problems and other areas that require Independence and responsibility as well for instance household chores are never done or they're done half-heartedly or inconsistently. Friendships are not initiated or they're not sustained getting a job is often a problem or holding a job is a problem. So the behavior extends from school into other areas that require those responsibilities responses and it sounds like into adulthood. It's very possible. There is a myth that we I think for a long time in working with Underachievers tried to sustain and that is the hope that they would grow out of it that generally does not happen. If it is true underachievement underachievement can extend into adulthood and maybe we can expand on that as we go along but generally they repeat the same behaviors in their adult life career-wise work-wise, even in relationships and marriage y's that are repetitive of the kinds of behaviors. They had while they were in school well to those of you who are listening if this sounds like someone, you know, and you've got some questions doctor Jack em is taking your calls today on the subject of Underachievers, and you can call us here in the Twin Cities at 22. Seven six thousand or outside the metropolitan area anywhere. You can hear our voices at one eight hundred two, four two 2828. That's two two seven six thousand or 1-800 to for to to 828 in the calls are already starting to come in. Dr. Jack mmm, but let me ask you if you have looked at all into what causes underachievement we have and while there's a range of causes depending on the type of underachiever we're talking about I can speak to one broad source of difficulty and that underachievement is usually caused by a difficulty in the child separating from the parents and what I mean by that is psychologically mature maturation wise usually on a developmental scale. We look as a child going from immaturity and dependency to Independence and maturity and Different Underachievers get stuck along the way on that scale and we need to look at where exactly they're stuck developmentally wise psychosocial e wise before we can determine how to help them. So in other words there is it just depends on the child there might there's not something in that child's environment that is causing that that's correct usually have kids in the same family under the same set of circumstances same parents and one out of three kids will be an underachiever. Absolutely. You can have the same behavior the same varieties of behavior in two different children, but the causes and the subjective meanings and the gratifications that a child gets out of those behaviors can be different for each child. So we need to look at each one separately. So we go to our first caller and we're set. Okay, we do our first questioner for dr. Jack em, go ahead. You're on the air. (00:05:57) Hello. I am a teacher and I have dealt with children who are under achievers. I've often been struck by the relationship when I speak to the parents of those children that the children are actually copying. Hey viewers that they've learned from their parents and I'm wondering what you see as the relationship between a parent who is under Chief underachieving in some segments of their lives and how that results in the child's Behavior as (00:06:32) well. That's a very good question. And yes, there is a high correlation between underachievement underachievement and that child's relationship with his or her parents to be very straightforward apparent cannot help a child move Beyond and underachievement issue if they're stuck at that place themselves. That's why it's important in when we work with Underachievers. We always involve the parents. That's a critical piece without them. We can't expect much project project progress to be done. For instance at the human development Institute in the counseling programs. We have parents are routinely involved in that program. Now you have something a definition Kind of an Underachievers fact sheet in one of those says that Underachievers often have successful parents mystery, which is opposite from what our teacher was saying, that's true. Although Underachievers come from all types of families. One of The Uncanny phenomenon. I guess you would say is that some Underachievers come from families where the parents are very successful that sometimes there are there are different reasons of that. Of course for that. Of course be due to the kind of Camp family were talking about but often in a family like that success is determined by What You Do by what you produce and often an underachiever gets stuck in that cycle and a successful parents are ready to fire their child. Like they are an unsuccessful employee that relationship does not work that way with the child. We have to look at more at the process that's going on between the child and the parent primarily. What's the what's the issue around the effort? Why is the child not putting in the effort? Successful parents. Unfortunately sometimes focus on the end product the a is the bees being successful at a sport scoring touchdowns. That's the wrong way to look at it. We need to look at it. The other way. Our motto is is the effort is there the grades will follow let's look at what's damming up the effort and causing that not to happen. Sometimes it happens also that in families where they're extremely successful parents. They have a lot of material success, but they're not very satisfied and underachieving children of successful parents being as smart as they are can figure this out and say if this is what success is all about, I want no part of it. So that's again another reason to look at the effort. Why is that child not getting some internal satisfaction from the effort that they're putting in as opposed to just looking at the end product. You're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio 15 minutes past eleven o'clock and we're talking with dr. David Jack him today about Underachievers and you are next with your question. Go ahead. (00:09:21) Hello. Hello. Yes, you're on the air. Hello. I'm wondering how the underachievement relates to depression and hyperactivity and anxiety because I see some of the behaviors being similar (00:09:37) that's a good question too. And we need to differentiate underachievement out from other types of problems in the past underachievement has gotten terribly confused with other types of difficulties like learning disorders currently add is a very big issue depression anxiety. It's important if one feels that they have an underachieving child to have a specific evaluation intellectually emotionally educationally to rule out any other difficulties that may be confounding the picture having said that I might also say that underachievement is not a physical neurological issue. It is a learned emotional problem. It takes a different approach therefore than someone who has ADD or who is singularly troubled by depression many Underachievers show symptoms of anxiety and depression, but they're the result of the underachievement behavior. So the real the real beginning Point starts with differentiating out making sure that there aren't under other issues clouding the underachievement issue, which is becoming an emotional and unfortunately in many cases a personality problem over a lifetime one of the things that you talked about is the almost the fear of success. Yes, these kids have that's a good question when you know, why would Underachievers not want to succeed. Well quite honestly most Underachievers are afraid of the future it leads to Independence responsibility and success. That's What they want the least to do with in some ways. They're like Peter Pan they don't want to grow up but there's a difference and that Peter Pan wanted to stay a child because that felt like that's where all the freedom and fun was Underachievers. Look at as Ed adulthood and success is providing freedom and fun and they want no part of it. Dear we have another call for dr. Jack. I'm go ahead please. (00:11:37) Hello. I'm I'm calling today because I find that a lot of the symptoms if you rolled down a list and I found myself. I found a few of those lists and I'm in my college years now. And yeah, I never bothered with homework or just did enough to come by with with Dee's and just kind of scoot through high school. And I found myself doing the same in college. Now, we're just big projects or things. I want to get involved in Allah kind of go at it full force and halfway through it all just kind of not be too interested anymore and leave it aside. How did you get into college and that's that's an amazing story just as a smile and that's all you just gotta just just talk nicely to people know what you know, it's really no problem. (00:12:25) What you rated raise the very good issue because perhaps you're the type of person like like some That has some interpersonal skill that can get by conflicts and expectations sooner or later. However, those efforts run out of gas when the competition gets stiffer and that your performance is not based on how well you smile or how well you do on a test. It's how well you prepare and it sounds like that's where you're having difficulty. There's only one thing that would happen. If you continue your efforts throughout the semester and not drop it halfway and that is likely that you would become more successful. We need to look at why that's a problem what sort of fears that might bring up for you. There's a dark side of success. That is the expectation that you'll have to do it again. So an amusing story was a child that I was seeing in the sixth grade whose father was determined to teach him responsibility. So gave him the job of carrying the garbage out twice a week. Somehow every time the child took the garbage out managed to carry it across the living room rug and broke the bag open all over the floor the father got so upset with this. He turned the job over to the overachiever in the family and their the cast was set in talking with the child it became evident that this child if he were able to complete that task would realize that he psychologically capable of doing it. He's physically capable of doing it you'll be expected to do it again and before you know it he'll be responsible for his own garbage for the rest of his life. And that's exactly what he did not want to have happen. Hmm. Does that sound familiar (00:14:09) it does and I'm not in school now, but I did go to school the year before that and I've just been going on and off part-time and full-time and and you know, and I have lived on my own for four years now and I'm not you know, getting any financial support from my folks. I moved out to the Twin Cities here two and a half years ago, but what I you know, what are some things I can do to kind of, you know, just kind of get you know that get me on the right path here. (00:14:32) Well, I think first of all real simply if you haven't done that already talk with a counselor at school to make sure you're in the correct area for your vocational interest. That's a very big one. If in fact you are and you still find it difficult to maintain a consistent commitment, then it might be necessary to consult somebody professionally to talk about more in depth about what kind of pattern you may be repeating that you've learned in your family that you can begin to look at and observe yourself to turn that around and in other words some professional counseling. Sometimes there are career counselors that can do that but more specifically I would consult one who has some real good experience in the area of underachievement. Okay, 21 minutes past eleven o'clock and we're talking with dr. David Jack. I'm from the human development Institute. They work with Underachievers there and you are next with your question. Let me give the phone number one more time though before we get to your question. It's two two seven six thousand in the Twin Cities or outside the metro area 1-800 to for 22828. Okay, go ahead with your question. (00:15:40) Thank you. Dr. Jack and I have 13 year old daughter and I think what you described my symptoms that she has not carrying in her work on time right up until the sixth grade. She was doing fine. And now all of a sudden he's exhibiting the behaviors that you listed earlier and I'm wondering first of all, could you be an underachiever and second of all what are some of the things that I can do to help her any we've gone through the anger thing and I backed off of that and now we have more of a partnership and working to her problem, but don't exhibit those (00:16:14) behaviors. Okay? Well again, we would need to understand a little bit more about why your daughter has gotten stuck most kids most Underachievers do well in the early grades without having to try that hard because they're bright enough when they get into the upper grades often around the last half of the fourth grade, but sometimes after that you begin to see more school problems the straightforward reason for that is that school becomes more demanding one of the realities. Issues hits in the begin to get homework. This is the first time teachers are expecting them to be independent and responsible for their work outside of school most kids have some difficulty in making that transition but Underachievers tend to get stuck there and often they become anxious avoidant and what I mean by that is that the develop all kinds of techniques and excuses to avoid the responsibility for getting their work done. So now Mom and Dad are yelling at them about the homework, they're taking to a neurologist to find out what's wrong with his brain. They're taking it for eye exams and the boy is saying or the girl is saying boy, I really hate this hassle, but this really does prove that they care about me the other fear that's occurring to this underachiever is that if they were responsible and successful and got better grades that maybe Mom and Dad would stop relating them to all together and it's a fear of emotional abandoned that Underachievers carry that cause them to perform poorly forget. Not hand in work and maintain a relationship with their parents around marginal academic performance. Some of the things that I can General things I can tell parents to do without knowing more specific about your case is secondly is do not focus on grades talk about their efforts at school and the difficulties. They're having that way make sure that any other authority figure in the house husband or significant other that you and that person are in sync about your expectations about that child. One of the crucial aspects with underachievement that I find is that Mom and Dad have different expectations. If you cannot come to agreement get an evaluation find out where that child's abilities are so you have it in black and white understand too that underachievement is a choice that it's not happening for Magical reasons are reasons outside of that child. They're choosing to underachieve with that understanding you need to step back and be there to help. The child but not do the work for them. Does that mean to than the parents shouldn't put so much attention on the school work itself. If the child is fearing abandonment emotional abandonment abandonment by the parent and all the parent talks about is school school school, right and and homework and grades. Then there is nothing else for that child to gauge the relationship. It's important to have expectations about a child's work in school. I don't want to diminish that but sometimes that's overemphasized over other areas of the child's life their peer relationships their activities at school. What's the nature of the relationship with their teacher those are important things to look at one of the things that we find with Underachievers is that they have difficulty doing homework. They talk about being bored not being able to concentrate so on and so forth. What we find is what occurs with an underachiever is when they begin to do homework is that they begin to experience a profound sense of loneliness. And so to replace that loneliness and discomfort they become bored they become distracted they get in arguments with Mom and Dad mom and dad are yelling at them to get the homework done not letting the go out until it's done. Now, they've engaged their parents what's happened? They've gotten an emotional connection with mom and dad even though it's a negative one. It's sort of like a negative one is better than none at all. And this is something that we have to look at in terms of changing that response parents need to be more involved in an ongoing way in the process of the child's efforts not just in the end result again and listening to midday on Minnesota public radio's news and information station. And our guest today is dr. David Jack mm were talking about Underachievers. And if you missed the beginning of the program where we listed some of the symptoms, I'll go over those once again and underachiever is a child who scores average or better on intelligence tests, but brings home poor report cards. Has a short attention span procrastinates and puts off tasks until later or in a minute often fails to complete assignments seems to be behind in school. All the time can't save money requires one-on-one attention from teachers spends too much time watching television or just hanging out forgets a lot and makes excuses and blames failures on other people or circumstances. We have many callers on the line who have questions about probably their children at these symptoms. Go ahead with your question, please (00:21:05) hello. Yes. You're on the air. Okay. Dr. Jackson now as a child, I was always why I've always scored very high on intelligence tests and on standardized tests. However, I was also labeled an underachiever and as someone who was perhaps learning disabled and I always found that creating the label changed parental expectations and Was very damaging to me up through college and to the point where I actually had myself tested for those specific things and they said well, no you should be doing X and so I mean there's a I think that there's a real problem with telling kids are telling parents that their children are under (00:21:55) achiever. In other words that that child would then live up to that label our live down to it. Right? Exactly. Yeah, and and you brought up a good point. That's that's why I say that very early on if that is a concern that it's something that should be evaluated. Unfortunately or fortunately for you. You had that done later and could find out that there are some specific things that you may be more interested in or that you could do. Well maybe that should have been identified early and that would have changed the whole scenario but it is dangerous just to use labels without understanding what they really mean. We use it under achiever as a working operation, but there are different types of Underachievers there different types. Of kids and individuals, we look more at individual issues with the child and the family rather than just grouping everyone as an underachiever and treating them all the same. So you're not saying that a child who tests very high on intelligence tests and should in his or her parents Minds be getting A's and is only getting B's that that's not necessarily an underachieving. Not necessarily. I think we have to look at the whole broad spectrum of behaviors that may be occurring. We have another question around the line with for with a question for dr. Jack. Mm and you are on Minnesota Public Radio. Go ahead. (00:23:05) Hello, I am One of the parents that has a one out of three just a second here. (00:23:14) Must have to tend to one of those (00:23:16) 31003 I had to turn my radio off. Oh good idea and my one out of three who is an underachiever and I have a few things every one of the symptoms that you listed applies. He also never needed to work for grades until now seven days now ninth grade and it got good grades up until that time jobs at home aren't done even without having consequences that I would like to know if there would be any books or any strategies that you would recommend that we could work on and I also I am I started taping this because it when I first heard it was coming on. I thought this is exactly what we're experiencing here in Hawaii taped it. Would it be damaging to him to listen to this too? (00:24:09) It wouldn't it would not be damaging but it probably would not be productive because Underachievers A strong filter and he probably would see as many things that didn't apply to him as would apply in probably would not carry through. How old is your son? He's 15. (00:24:26) Uh-huh. It does get fairly good grades, but that we always want to go to conferences. It's always he's extremely bright, but he really doesn't apply himself so he could be getting the a but he's not going to be getting the a because he didn't do the extra credit or he didn't do this or he didn't this whole assignment is missing forthcoming and it's so he is get so you know, what degree is an underachiever. We I guess my husband and I feel that he has been an underachiever in the like dropping the music lessons. (00:25:00) Very very very quickly. I think one thing you can do if you haven't done is is to enter into some kind of contract with him around chores and homework incense give him some sense of input and control over those things. He's at an age That's important. Unfortunately, there's there's nothing on the the open market for parents to read around underachievement. That would be helpful coincidentally. I have a book that's at a publisher that I'm waiting for a word on but for further information, you can contact our Institute. We do have some printed material that we can send out to you and that that might be helpful to you in understanding it. Well as you mentioned earlier, this is so often an individual and each individual situation is different. So it's hard to generalize about in general. We need to understand the motive of underachievement. And that is that it is of it is a an attempt to stay exactly where a child is and not move into the future to to have consistent successes in all areas of a child's life brings on the issue of separation anxiety that child moving into the future and away from the emotional protection of Home whereas in consistent success or consistent failure. I might say diminishes the separation. Anxiety, but then that child never develops a sense of themself away aside from the family. So it is in The Underachievers best interest or so. They think is to have Mom and Dad more worried about their performance in those areas of life than they are and as long as parents are more worried about their performance, they don't have to worry and that's a significant shift that we have to work with parents when we see them in our counseling program. They're feeding into that. Yes. Okay, 27 minutes before 12 noon. This is midday on the news and information station of Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Paula Schroeder. And our guest today is dr. David Jack. Mm and we will take your question next you're on the air. (00:26:54) Yes. My husband is an underachiever and its really a presented some problems in our marriage because I always feel like I have to supervise him to get things done. I've tried not giving any input and things simply don't get done. Sometimes very important things and I don't want to be a nag but sometimes I just can't do Everything and it's just easier to supervise than to not be involved at all. What are some options that I could consider? (00:27:21) Well, I you expressed what I find a fairly common problem in adult Underachievers. They generally will find a mate who at least for a while. We'll take on the responsibility for them and you've described some of them they are repeating the same kind of behaviors that they most likely had with their parents. And so I think at that stage of the game the two of you probably would need some counseling to help him differentiate his responses to you as a parent as opposed to responses to you as an adult and given that you're an adult that it might be helpful for both of you to enter into some counseling to do that work. It sounds like a tough one. It's a tough one. Yeah, it does end marriages. Unfortunately one thing we know that just giving Up and say I'm not going to do this anymore sink or swim kind of approach generally doesn't work matter of fact, most traditional approaches to motivate an underachiever don't work and that's why it often takes some professional intervention. Okay. We'll go to your question next for dr. Jack. Mm. You're on the air. (00:28:32) Yes. I'm interested in what the difference in presenting is for the ADHD adult and the so-called obsessive depressive or compulsive adult and the ramifications of a misdiagnosis. I'm thinking about a reference to a particular article that occurred in the late a Newsweek July 26 1993 where such a case of you know existed and fellow had been diagnosed as depressed or obsessive compulsive throughout his years at one point. He decided that he just wasn't going to accomplish anything and at another point he was diagnosed as an ADHD adult. With stimulants therapy following and has gone on to become competent and successful. But with you know, many many many years backgrounding this we're all attempts, you know seemed you know to indicate wrong kind of therapy including pharmacological intervention and he now is going ahead with successful life. This seems to be a possible Pitfall and I think it's involved in the concept of drug-seeking behavior is so if somebody is interested in finding out what exactly it is, you know experiences fogginess or lack of clarity a thoughts or and all of the other, you know signs which you know, like can't finish the dishes. Yes on one sock you walk through the room you have clutter on your dining table the whole thing. How how is one distinguished from the other and what? Are the differences in presenting (00:30:17) their can be overlaps in the kind of behaviors? You see between the two the good news is that the instruments for diagnosing those different quote disorders are more refined now, so it's more likely that could be done more quickly. There are neurological instruments there even are computerized instruments for determining add often you have both for the for those people who might not know. What a DD is its attention deficit disorder, right? ADHD is Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder, sometimes you can have both and that presents another problem nevertheless. There has to be a good differentiation of that at the beginning so that a tailored pinpointed program of intervention can be made We are talking with dr. David Jack and we've got a couple of phone lines open. Now. If you want to give us a call. The number is 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities and outside the metro area one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight and we will take your question next. (00:31:16) Hello. Am I on the air? Yes, you are. Hi. I'm a parent of a fifth grader who's been diagnosed as ADHD and is on riddle and he's had all the symptoms that you've described. The doctor had said that as long as the underachiever senses, his parents are more concerned with the completion of school work than he is. He'll continue or persist in that behavior and we have taken the approach with our son that if he puts off assignments. He doesn't do them on time. He's still going to have to work on them. Even if he doesn't get credit when they're handed in. Is there a better approach that we should take with him or what? How do we withdraw from from our show of Turn that way that he continued to work on school work as he (00:32:04) should without knowing your family specifically. I'm I can offer a broad piece of advice and it may not be one that you're comfortable with. And that is to let a logical consequences occur that if a child doesn't hand in the homework, then there are detentions their extra work would have you often parents in an effort to save them their child from those kind of stresses will intervene try to get them to do the work. It becomes a very much of a power struggle. You're not out of the loop is what I'm saying and emotionally you're still tied into the struggle and you may have to step back further most of the time forcing a child to do that work. Even if they're not going to get credit is not productive and there's probably some other types of responses. You may need to have to him in addition to that not just stepping off and breaking off from him but having some way of Running to him emotionally that's different than currently occurs. Is it more productive to praise the work that has been done rather than to focus on that, which I think it's more important to praise the effort whether that's homework whether that's chores at home whether that's someone who's really tried to make a friend but somehow it hasn't clicked to somehow reflect to that child what they're experiencing in that process as a way of being involved in that effort. I think is more productive than looking at what's finally done, huh? Okay, you're on the air next with the question for dr. David Jackson from the human development Institute. We're talking about Underachievers today. Go ahead please research shows that Underachievers can be the first second third last. It's more a function of when that child was born in the family. What was occurring in the family at the time and what that child experienced at? What particular a Each that cause them to get stuck on a developmental scale. Birth. Birth order does not relate to underachievement. Okay. We'll take your question. Next you're on the air. (00:34:09) Yes. Thank you. This is an interesting conversation and interesting discussion. Now, I'm 54 years old and I'm a successful engineer with a local St.Paul company and I have been called an underachiever all of my life in the grade school and so forth. All of the teacher said this young man can do much better and and he's not achieving up to his potential and the all of the other things about Not meeting schedules and not sticking with things and all these kinds of things and one of my questions is if an individual returns to the society that which he takes out of it what's wrong with being an underachiever? (00:34:55) I'm not exactly sure what the nature of the question is, but it sounds like in your case that perhaps you were not truly an underachiever did not meet all the criteria that we're talking about but nevertheless that term was used broadly for you on the other hand you say that you're successful underachieving individuals. It is not that they're unsuccessful in many cases, but they do not reach the potential that they could have a my question would be is if you're entirely satisfied with the level of achievement that you've made if you are then it's not an underachievement issue. (00:35:31) Okay that I guess that's the question. Yeah. Yes. I am (00:35:33) satisfied. Okay my level of achievement. Okay, (00:35:35) but many many parents. My wife is an elementary school principal. No, he deals with these questions about a worried parent is saying O my child is not achieving up to their potential. Yes. I guess my it's a philosophical question. Yes. A question is isn't that all right, if the individual especially as an adult d Eyes to set their level of achievement at a certain level without having to necessarily (00:36:00) okay. It's important to understand that that kids go different through different phases. Sometimes they have a bad semester. Sometimes they are they have difficulty with a particular subject. That's no reason to get too excited about that child being an underachiever. If it's a persistent pattern over time semester to semester then maybe we're looking at that kind of problem. The issue that I want to address is that most Underachievers are not aware that they have a problem their parents are concerned about it, but they are not and that is part of the issue it is they bury their responsibilities in the choices. They're making to underachieve and in most cases thankfully not yours, but in most cases those don't go away and those patterns are carried into adulthood. So I hear far more cases of individuals who are dissatisfied with their work in their life having difficulties in interpersonal. Hips and so on and so forth some underachieving adults have an experience they get into a particular work environment or sometimes with a very concerned boss or authority and a process clicks and they're turned around and that may have happened to you. But that's that's extremely rare for most of the time. These are personality characteristics that carry on into adulthood think perhaps what the caller was saying to is that well, if everyone thought that he should have been a doctor and he ended up being a bricklayer if he's happy. So what if he said he's paying his taxes and you know, maintaining a proper lifestyle right? Then we're not talking about underachievement but most Underachievers that I know are not satisfied and upon close examination. If you really talk with them, they have a low satisfaction with their work. It's at least mediocre. It's not bad, but they're not doing terrifically either they said into sort of a mediocre. Of life and at that point it is their choice, but I think we need to help them understand why they're making that choice. Yeah, 15 minutes before 12 noon, you're listening to midday on the news and information station of Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Paula Schroeder and my guest today is dr. David Jack him from the human development Institute. And we're talking about Underachievers all of our phone lines of full at this time, and we'll see how many more calls we can get to in the remaining few minutes. You're on the air. Go ahead. (00:38:22) I yes, if you would like to get assistance have some professional intervention either for a child or an adult. How can you go about identifying where you can go? (00:38:34) Well one way you can do is to call our Institute and we can send you information on that there unfortunately are not a lot of or any organizations that I know of at least in the Upper Midwest that are doing exactly the same kind of work that we are but we have even helped some people out of state obtain some kind of help in their And consult with the person that's working with them. So sometimes that can be arranged but I guess the first step would be maybe to get some information printed from us and that might help lead you to determine whether there is something that actually you want to proceed on and then we can help you with that. Well, should we give the address then now where people can write its the human development Institute. This is kind of a long address. So I hope you've got maybe the phone number would be easy right there. Okay. That's the phone number is eight three five sixty five hundred and it's located in Edina. If you want to get some more someone will return your call and send send you some information and and perhaps talk with you a little bit more on the phone about what your options are. Okay. I hope they're prepared for a lot of calls. We've got a lot of calls on the phone right now here. Let's go ahead with your (00:39:42) question. Hello. Yes, sir on the air. I'm a school psychologist in Burnsville Minnesota, and I was wondering if you were familiar with dr. Sylvia rims work. (00:39:53) Yes somewhat from And (00:39:55) she's written a book. Yes underachieve. Yes, and I just wanted to share that (00:40:00) information. Yes. I'm familiar with her work. She takes a slightly different approach to the intervention on underachievement that we do. I think we look at it more as a emotional response to the demands vocationally academic and interpersonally that a child experiences and it's probably a more intensive lengthy focus on that issue. Then perhaps a doctor Rim takes she involves more of the educational aspect of it and it may be that we're looking at different kinds of Underachievers here the kind that we focus on as opposed to dr. Rim, but I do know a bit about what she's done. Are there more Underachievers now than there were in the past? Unfortunately. Yes first we need to understand that there's always been underachiever. I think Achievers in the past. It's a group of people that's been labeled as lazy or unmotivated there anything but that I might say and I can talk a little bit more about that. But I think it is increasing I think partly because kids are having to move through developmental stages faster the demands on them are quicker and they're getting fouled up and stuck a little bit more. I think the mobility of families and the lack of network and families has contributed some to that. We're in the past if Johnny had to be home at 4 o'clock and do his homework and Mom and Dad were working maybe an aunt and uncle grandma grandpa or around to help check on that now that's not true. So there's no sustaining adults that can help bridge that process. So I think it is increasing and I think even in the adult Work World we can look at declining productivity. And I can only attribute that to underachievement issues. Of course, we talk about alcoholism absenteeism from work and so on but I think those are related to these personality characteristics that we've been referring to. Well since you just brought it up, what do you mean that Underachievers are anything but unmotivated they're extremely motored. They're extremely motivated to stay exactly where there are. That's why it they're sort of an anomaly for them success is a is a negative if they were to become more successful. It means moving emotionally away from their parents. That is the last thing they want on the world. Whereas if they fail that feels like a positive because they've been able to sustain that close emotional involvement with their parents so that that type of motivation is far more powerful than any kind of incentive that we can invent. I know parents that I've taken away everything but the Air Supply and the child just keeps on underachieving. It's not the external rewards and punishments or grounding that's going to work. It's an internal Focus that needs to change. Let's go On to another caller with question for dr. Jack mm. You're on the air. (00:42:45) Yes is aside. Yes. Yes, somebody called in about information and then somebody else also mentioned the works of dr. Sylvia rim, and I realize that the approaches may be different but for people who are interested Sylvia Rim has a lot of available information. If you want, I can certainly give you the address for people who are interested. Okay? Okay, it's Apple publishing. And the street address is W6 050 Apple Road. Watertown, Wisconsin 53094 and I believe that they also put out a brochure and she has also some things I think of. Dr. Jim Fay, (00:43:25) okay. It might be worth a check to your local school counselor as well. They might have some information on (00:43:30) if we have some I'm a learning disabilities person teacher and we deal with a lot of this and we use a lot of the Sylvia room things too. So, thank you. (00:43:39) Okay. Thank you. Let's go on to another caller quickly. Go ahead, please. (00:43:43) Yes. I have my 18 year. Stan the other day why he started having problems and fourth grade and he didn't seem to know was the classic case at the end of fourth grade. He started having problems and I remember asking his teacher and the principal why this was so common in voice and they denied the problem existed and I was just wondering how you can make aware of teachers. What's going on? Because it created a lot of problems of in throughout the whole time. He was in school till graduated. (00:44:12) It's interesting. You say that because I remember when my son was going into fourth grade. His teacher said now, this is going to be a year when there's going to be a lot more expected of him and the work is going to increase and you might notice some difficulties, right? So obviously some teachers know that some teachers know this in defense of teachers. I think they're very befuddled by the underachiever and they're dealing with so many other issues in the classroom these days unfortunately that Underachievers get caught in the cracks and they're expected to grow out of it or they get moved from one grade to another an 18 year old who says I don't know is a good example of what an Underachievers response is they are the most uninteresting active individuals in the world. They have a vested interest in maintaining their unawareness about why events occur. If you ask them why they didn't hand their homework and they say, I don't know or if you ask them how you doing for grades, they'll Okay, I guess one sixth grader told me that he was wondering what his grades were like and what they were doing. He was going to go down to the office and check them out. You know, I felt like the need to respond to say. Well you should because they've been around asking for you. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's surprising you'd think that the individual involved would know again Underachievers do not look internally for the reasons why they are not achieving because it would set off emotional responses that might feel overwhelming to them. There's an automatic shutoff valve that immediately externalizes the reasons for the lack of performance cuts off the anxiety cuts off the worry and what happens Mom and Dad are worried mom and dad can't figure it out after all all the teachers and Mom and Dad have tried their very best to motivate this child. So therefore it must be their fault and most Underachievers would prefer them to feel like Their fault, they are off the hook and many of them say and I didn't ask to be born anyway, so you're responsible for me for the rest of my life yikes. Okay, let's go on to another question for dr. David Jacqueline. We've got about five minutes left in the program and we'll get to as many of you as we can. Go ahead, please. (00:46:23) Dr. Jenkins. I worked with the Minnesota attorney general's task force and child abuse and neglect since 1985. We find that a lot of verbal abuse negative import dumb stupid worthless Longley extended from that point on can do a lot of (00:46:41) it. Yes. Yes. That's a very good point many Underachievers get so used to hearing the negative that they get begin to perform that way if a child comes home with a on a report card and dad doesn't notice but he yells at him immediately when he smelled this pills Coke on the sofa that boy cert soon learns that he gets attention by goofing up. He's going to continue You to do that his dad gets the ulcer and he gets revenge. Let's go to another caller with a question. You're on the air. (00:47:13) Hello? Yes. You're on the air. Yes. I'm asking this question. Can somebody be an overachiever clear up to 40 year honor cheer up clear up to 40 (00:47:21) years. Yes. It is possible. We do see adults that come in presenting underachievement problems. It's not uncommon to go beyond that as well. You sure have a lot of callers on this topic and I guess I'm just amazed at how many people seem to be experiencing the same thing. It's a pervasive problem at as reflected by our informal surveys of teachers in the metro area who tell us that according to the criteria that we talked about they can determine that anywhere between 40 and 60 percent of their students are underachieving that's phenomenal and it's an incredible waste of productivity and successful - and satisfaction for these students. Let's take one or maybe two more callers. You're on the air with your (00:48:13) question. I have a good friend who have son is underachieving and clearly show separation anxiety. What strategies can we use with him to try or she used with him to try to increase our to deal with that problem of separation (00:48:27) anxiety. Okay. How old is (00:48:28) he? I think in second grade now (00:48:31) second grade, that's quite early and the separation anxiety Maybe. A precursor to underachievement. We don't know that but the common intervention with separation and anxiety is to follow through with the commitments despite the protests of the child if he's screaming about going to school he needs to be physically taken that may seem somewhat cruel to parents. But all the literature shows that those strictly behavioral follow through interventions are the most effective at that age if that cancer continues then we need to look at what else may be going in that family with that child that might be helpful to intervene on is it then I've experienced this a couple of times with happened to be a little girls who did not want mother to leave when they were brought some place and so Mom stayed sometimes that comfortable that gets reinforced and and it's Mom's difficulty in letting go more than the child's fear of being left. That is an operation here. So that's another thing. We need to look at if Mom continues. To reinforce that what is she getting out of it? Yeah. Okay. One more quick question. We're going to try go ahead you're on the air. (00:49:45) Hello. I'm 32 and I'm believe I'm a classic underachiever all the mentioned emotional responses and so forth. I can very strongly relate to (00:49:56) and we need to get to your question quickly. I'm sorry, we're running out of (00:50:00) time. My two-year-old son. Now I believe is showing some of the same Tendencies and example. I'll ask him to just do a simple thing like it away from that quarter something and he just totally freezes up. He's unable to do it. Now. How can I at this early stage begin to help him so that he doesn't show the same Tendencies. (00:50:20) I think one of the things that you've identified is that you see some of the same behaviors in him that you see in yourself and I think that's already a step towards recognizing that there's some link between what you do and how he responds and I think that will be helpful to you beyond that. I'm Often reluctant to tell parents what to do with very young children because they're in they're in such a speed track of development that it could be any number of things not including an achievement that could be an operation here. If you are concerned that despite your efforts to change his responses that you feel are maladaptive or Troublesome. Then you may want to consult an individual professional to determine whether that's this is an age appropriate response a two-year-old, you know is in a power struggle most of the time and they express it in different ways. Some are verbal some frees up some do other things so we have to determine whether this is a kind of a normal response and that your experience does not make you feel predisposed to respond to it in a certain way that may not be appropriate check out. Some books. Maybe Child Development. Look at some child development books. What's appropriate for this this age? Dr. David Jack and we've run out of time and it flew by we had many Any callers on the line who we didn't get to once again, I would like to give out your phone number in case they want more information on this subject of underachievement. This is for the human development Institute, which is located in Edina. The number 8 3 56500. Dr. Jack and thanks a lot for coming in today. Thank you was a pleasure. This has been midday on Minnesota Public Radio.