(00:00:00) You know something odd happens to a lot of girls in our society when they are young they so often seem self confident self-assured ready to take on the world and Along Comes puberty and all that self confidence seems to melt away today. We hope to find out why that happens and what parents and teachers and other people can do to help our guest is psychologist. Carol Eagle who has spent more than 30 years consoling adolescent girls and their parents after Eagle is the head of Child and Adolescent psychology at Montefiore Medical Center in New York City. She's also the author of a new book that is a guidebook for parents filled with tips for parents and how to anticipate and handle the problems facing adolescent girls. The book is called all that she can be and it's published by Simon & Schuster. Thanks for coming by I sure appreciate it. Hi subject today is self esteem really of adolescent girls and I suppose the place to start after Eagle is with a definition of terms. What? (00:01:00) Self-esteem. Okay, that's very difficult. If you ask an adolescent girl, how's her self-esteem? She'll look at you blankly and not have any idea but we psychologist certainly and Educators measure self-esteem by questions having to do with how you feel about yourself and the whole concern of this book as well. As all of us in the field of adolescence. Is that the AAUW study of 1990 demonstrated that in contrast to boys girls who feel well about themselves as well about themselves as boys do it eight nine years of age start to fall in self-esteem. Whereas boys are able to somehow whether puberty and at 16 feel as good about themselves as they did at eight or nine years of age girls never recover and only 20% of girls studied feel decently about themselves. So self-esteem has to do with I feel confident. I feel that A capable person. I like myself and I'm happy those are measures of self-esteem girls. Don't feel those things. Those are attributes about themselves and it's a terrible thing about what happens in terms of realizing that they're going to enter young adulthood with these terrible feelings about themselves has this always been the case (00:02:22) or is this something that (00:02:23) we don't know that in terms of studies because this this was what was so mind-blowing when the study came out because we haven't studied it before but I dare say it has been true. I don't think it's a historical change in our contemporary times that this is happening. I think that women have had women and girls have had a very difficult time during puberty perhaps back, you know, the turn of the century or early 20th century, perhaps when we were a country that was less populated and clung more to family Traditional Values perhaps it was easier for girls in terms. Knowing their place and where they should fit in but we're fixing the 21st century and girls are having a very difficult role ahead of them. And that's one of the purposes of this book is to help parents understand that girls are more likely than not going to have to face becoming a single parent of a child that person today is the poorest person in America a single mother of a child as our divorce rate seems to be increasing instead of abating. I think we have to educate our girls that this is the future they have to look forward (00:03:37) to I would think on the other hand though as options have expanded for women in society women's movement all that that that would tend to do serve as a counterforce there and that would kind of boost women's self-esteem or not. So (00:03:53) well, I think sure it's opening the opportunities for them, but I think self-esteem is a Different psychological emotional issue in terms of how you feel about yourself whether you regard yourself with respect and whether you feel that you are equal to an important as the men in our society and that that's the that's the difference. I mean sure I think that opening up opportunities is great and women have to what we want to do with our teenage daughters is be sure that they see all these opportunities and can aggressively pursue them (00:04:30) in terms of parents trying to help their daughters whether the whether the rocky Shoals of adolescent you would divide the girls into three categories each with their own problems fast trackers on timers, I believe right? And then the Late Bloomer Late Bloomer, would you explain those Concepts a little bit and which group has the worst problem? (00:04:52) Well, that's hard to say what those terms are two taken in account different maturational. Measures of girls this is true with boys to obviously the Fast Tracker is obviously is a girl who enters menarche first time a menstruation it 10 or 11 years of age. The on time girl is someone who will begin to menstruate it between 11 and 12 years of age and the Late Bloomer is someone who's going to start to menstruate much later in adolescents even as late as 15 16 years of age. This is all within that bell-shaped curve of normal development. Neither is neither extreme is something to be concerned about there's a lot written about the fact that the Fast Tracker has the harder time because usually her body has matured. She looks far more mature than her 11 years of age or 12 years of age. So she is treated as if she were a 16 year old and since children like very much to be treated as older than they are and they take pride in that the girl can fall into that. Willingly fall into being mistaken for being older than she is the fact is the cognitively she is still an 11 or 12 year old and she does not have the head the wisdom the knowledge the abilities of a sixteen-year-old and that's where I think she gets into trouble The Late Bloomer in a way is better off because she has a much longer period of time in which to grow and not only are we talking about physical growth there but to develop herself emotionally and psychologically. So in many ways girls who are either on time or late bloomers are better off than the early bird the fast (00:06:39) starter Pioneers have a (00:06:41) little tougher. Yeah. Exactly. Good boy (00:06:45) Our Guest today is psychologist, Carol legal our discussion today is is about adolescent two girls and what we can do to make sure that the years their adolescent years don't aren't quite so destructive as they tend to be for some girls. Boost their self-esteem. We've got a caller on the line with a question. Hello. Hello, I did a good job of raising. My daughter's as young feminists. They tell me but now in their early 20s, they tell me what I forgot to mention to them is how many young boys are rabbit anti-feminists. Do you have any advice? (00:07:22) I'm sorry. I didn't hear the beginning of this question. I didn't get the earphones. (00:07:26) Well, I think the I think if I was listening only I think I think the point was that she's done a great job of raising her girls are girls, right so that their independence so on but a lot of people are doing such a good job (00:07:38) with their voice, right and I would answer that in terms of that. There's a book needed obviously for the parents of books of boys and how they should be raising their boys to become increasingly aware of the equality between the genders and the Sexes and to learn that they had they have to learn techniques also of escaping peer pressure in terms of being part of the boys club and excluding girls are taking on unfortunate attitudes that have been Traditional Values in our more patriarchal (00:08:14) society. Let me let me put it this way if all of them tomorrow tomorrow all the Asian man in the society had their act together would adolescent girls still have a problem. I would help you as a purely a question that men are yeah, I'm all responsible. (00:08:32) See, I don't think it's that men have done it two girls if that's what you're implying. And I think that that's you know, I don't want to take that position. I think it's much more complicated in terms of a whole cultural attitude so that women have done it to themselves also and it's a combination of whatever however you can conceive of whatever supports the Cosmetic industry for instance. The girls are very into cosmetics and how they look and is fed certainly and is a growth, you know, commercial Enterprise in America about how women look where does that come from? I don't think men necessarily are doing that to women and and placing all the emphasis on how they look television is doing it, you know magazines are doing at It is doing it all the time and we thrive on it somehow we love it. This is one of the difficulties that adolescent girls get into is how they look they think they look terrible because all the girls they see on TV look wonderful all the adolescent girls that are portrayed they have perfect skin in wonderful hair, you know Wonderful bodies the general run of the mill adolescent girl doesn't look that way at all. I mean she's got problems and it may you know, her skin may be fine, but her hair is terrible or something. So this is a dilemma for adolescent girls is they're constantly being presented with models that they cannot live up to and in comparison, they're failing (00:10:00) should-should the teenage girls wear makeup. Do you think and if so at what age should they start using (00:10:05) makeup? Well, I think again the use the wish to use makeup starts about 11 and 12 years of age and if a 12 year old is going to have a knock-down drag-out fight over wearing lipstick perhaps Mother can serpent. Your can scribed her use of the lipstick to a particular time a particular place like going out, you know to a party or something like that. I think that the usual development is between 14 and 16 when parents feel and I think girls are more comfortable in actual the actual use of makeup and they begin to experiment with different types of makeup. I have an example in the book of myself at 14 when I went to school with like black nail polish on yes for several weeks and I really thought I was sophisticated. I mean it's so pathetic to look back on it that this one indication of my sophistication was going to be the color of my nails. Luckily. I was permitted to do that and then it ran its course and I wasn't interested in that any longer. I guess, you know the world didn't treat me as this new sophisticate, you know, so I think that that happens at 13 and 14 the Well fool around with different things and I think they should be permitted to experiment and try out because as part of defining who they are and what they look like that's callers on the line with (00:11:31) questions. Hello, Iran, Minnesota Public Radio. Hi. I'm a big sister of with the Big Brothers and Sisters organization and you know list and I'd like your guests opinion of mentoring programs. I feel that you don't have to be a parent who contribute to a girl self-esteem and I just like her comments on mentoring programs. Should I go ahead? Yes, (00:11:52) I couldn't agree with you more. I think that any way that we can help girls whether where the teacher where we don't have to be the parent we can be the aunt the grandmother the grandfather doesn't make any difference has the it's the interest in the girl that we show her. So as a mentor, I think you're in an excellent position to help a girl with her self-esteem by showing her the kind of respect interest in her future and discussion with her about the Abilities for her future as well as what she's going through (00:12:24) today. Do you think a an adolescent girl might pay more attention to somebody who (00:12:29) isn't. Oh sure. Yeah. So I said you (00:12:32) give somebody some advice maybe it even works better that way. (00:12:34) Yeah. I really do think that particularly during the pubertal years the girls do pick up more from people outside they do because they're locked into conflicts with their usually their mother and perhaps their father in terms of that terrible conflict that's going on between the push for Independence and the yearning to stay dependent to stay in eight nine year old girl dependent on your parents. So often and Outsider can be much more helpful to the girl during that period as well as later. I think that a lot of role models are picked up by adolescent girls in terms of helping them look to the Future and model themselves after other people without their being aware that they're even doing it (00:13:17) other callers on the line with a question for dr. Carol Eagle. Hello. Hi. I have a question about children having children are a statement. I'm of the opinion that in the case of drug abuse or if a young girl is having a child at a very young age and appears unable to support that child. They should perhaps be given the choice of either abortion or adoption and that perhaps Depo-Provera would would not be unrealistic. I'm tired of babies having babies and whole thing falling back on the taxpayer or you know, and II think that's a realistic option. I don't think there's anything less than morally correct about such such options and I especially Depo-Provera as a long-term birth that control agent and K would be required in certain instances. All (00:14:12) right, right. I don't know if you caught the program just preceding this but what it was on teenage pregnancy and that was exactly the point that was being made by The experts on that program that they felt that it was very obvious that girls who think in terms of the future and have hopes for the future not not only hopes but plans for the future are girls who do more often seek abortion and or adoption as a solution to teenage pregnancy as well as before they even get pregnant taking precautions so that they don't get pregnant. Whereas girls who feel more hopeless about the future are tend to be the girls who do get pregnant and see that this is the only only route for them to follow and it is a tragedy because we know from all the statistics that such girls are really doomed to a life of increasing poverty. (00:15:10) What's your sense? Why do you suppose teenagers at least some of them seemed so reluctant to use (00:15:16) contraceptive? Oh boy. I wish I knew the answer to that because I think it is a terrible. It's a terrible problem for us because it is estimated by the year 2000 the the person most likely to be dying of AIDS at that time as a 17 to 20 year old female and I think that girls who do not practice safe sex are really endangering themselves in terms of the future for themselves. I don't know why that is I don't know what the embarrassment is or the shame or the awkwardness somehow about the whole concept what what what that has to do with but it certainly is prevalent. What role should do what role (00:16:02) do parents play in this? I mean should they be providing their their children with contraceptives? How do they tell their child will look if you're going to if you're going to do it you need you protection, but on the other hand, I don't want you to write about anyway, how do you it seems (00:16:17) like well first first off I would be shocked if my adolescent. Was was beginning to have sex and didn't know how to purchase a contraceptive. You know, I that would that would be pretty shocking. I would hope that any teenager who's ready to have sex knows how to do this. And that is based upon the fact that I feel that parents have got to start having these kind of conversations these kinds of dialogues with their girls back when they're eight and nine years of age and start talking about the future so that it becomes it becomes an automatic issue as automatically so you don't want your girl to smoke when she's going to become a teenager. So it's too late at 14 when she picks up a cigarette to try it out to say. Oh, I don't want you to smoke and just to introduce that idea. Now. This should have started back at eight nine years of age when dangers to one's Health the whole concept of being self-destructive to oneself to one's body is And and expressed as a concern of the parent. (00:17:26) Let's go to another caller. Hello. You're on Minnesota Public Radio. Hi. I was wondering if you have heard about or read. I've been reading a lot of articles about how they the father's feelings of his daughter and the good Rita positive relationship of a father and daughter and the great impact. It has on a girl self-esteem. Just want to give you a few examples. I've been reading that girls that tend to go to the math and sciences tend to have a very good relationship with the father interactive. And also I've read that girls who grow up with a good father relationship tend to look less for Love from boys when it's meaningless. And because they have that male love and a ready and I think it's the girl that that don't have that that are constantly looking for a male love and the first boy that looks their way for whatever reason they seem Too full for that and in if you do agree with this then my next question is I'm wondering even though family law is doing an excellent job on support and financial support from divorced fathers. They do nothing to enforce this patient and when you read all these child studies and they say how important of caring emotional relationship is with parents and yet they do nothing to instill this father-daughter or father-son relationship with a father who does not divorce the children, but just divorce his mother Allah hang up and listen. (00:18:58) Thank you. Have you brought up a terribly important point and I'm so glad that you brought it up because I do think that father's extremely involved in the developing self esteem of their daughters and and and helping them. I just heard it to a father recently tell his daughter that his 13 year old that she was too smart for her own good and that she wasn't going to be able to capture a Been that way with showing these kind of brains now that's sort of kind of a backhanded compliment which is horrendous to me in 1993 that a man would be thinking this way about his daughter. So that attitude I still think unfortunately is very prevalent the way that a father to the degree that a father can support his daughter during these years is tremendously important to her and it does show up in better science and math and I just want to say that part of what I argue is that girl's failure to not be able to compete with males in terms of science and math is also dependent upon this problem with their self-esteem and that is primarily coming from the family as well as from Educators to go to your question since I certainly do agree with you. I don't I don't think it's just in terms of making making A law that fathers have to have to visit their children and support their children because I think that that's a terribly restrictive kind of attitude to enforce a man to do that. If he's not interested. I would much rather that we worked harder on trying to understand why men aren't interested in their children and want to be with them and want to nurture them and see them grow as sort of as it's exactly it's throughout our society in terms of when they picked prostitutes up. They never pick up the John's and the John's aren't responsible somehow for this and I think the all of these things are two way street men and women are involved in this together and that both are equally either guilty responsible. I feel that in terms of the rearing of a child certainly the people who made this child are responsible for the growth and development support of that (00:21:17) child. It's pretty tough is it not for non-custodial parents generally? Many of whom tend to be men to stay involved and to keep up with the as you wrote in your book that girls tend to be not they're not very communicative about all the problems. They're having about what's they tend to keep it all inside? And if you don't see your child all that often to begin with and then she never says anything about what's going on in their life. I would think it would be difficult for that non-custodial parent to really help out as much as they might (00:21:45) want to. Oh, I think you're absolutely right and I think that, you know, I've talked to many fathers who make exactly that point I'm there for her, but she never talks. She doesn't want to talk to me in these can become non-custodial fathers and sofa so I always say to them. We'll listen. This is you know, this is this is normal for her and and the period of time she's going through so what can we do to encourage her to talk? And then I use the example that I also use in terms of mothers and fathers with their children is it's often easier to talk about other things than the girl herself and what she's feeling. Willing and thinking and how how she's handling something meaning to utilize TV stories to utilize film plays whatever you're sharing with your daughter and to talk about the characters that you have experienced together. And what's going on between mother and daughter father and daughter and to bring bring to bear. I think one can have a very meaningful conversation about that in terms of its implications for the girl in her own life about her own self. It doesn't have to be directed to her directly, which is one of the hardest things for adolescents. They die with embarrassment and shame when you say to them as I said before, how's your self-esteem or what do you think about the way your skin looks anything like that is like mortifying to teenage girls. It is two boys, too. (00:23:19) Our Guest today is dr. Carol Eagle who's written a new book called all that she can be helping your daughter achieve her full potential and maintain her self-esteem during the critical years of adolescence. Hello. You're on Minnesota Public Radio. Hi, I have I have raised two children and I just thank God it's over daughter went to high school with a friend who had two abortions before she graduated. And I have heard of young children grade school who are presented early grades like third and fourth were presented with a picture of a graphic picture of a couple having intercourse. This might be right for some children, but the presented to all of them. So sex education is something that disturbs you yes and the School nurses. I wonder what kind of education are giving. Okay. Do you think about the sex education programs at the school is conduct as a rule. (00:24:23) I think they're very inadequate. I think that you have a point in terms of the age of the child. I think for third graders to be seeing pictures of people having intercourse is totally meaningless to them and that they get a very distorted notion about what it exactly is being presented again is as I keep saying over and over again, I think that sex education is something that should begin very early in life. It's not something that you educate your daughter about it 12 years of age but it is something you start talking about in language that is appropriate to a four-year-old a six-year-old. Ten-year-old. That's all those are all different stages of development children at four. Well, I have a niece who ran into the house at four years of age and said Mommy Mommy. Where do I come from? Where do I come from and Mommy explain to her where she came from and physiologically correct terms biological terms and she said no no. No, she was so impatient. She said in a my Russian in my crown, where am I from and so this is your American? Oh, okay. So that's a typical four-year old response to our meaning to the question. Where do I come from parents? I think misinterpret these because they don't understand where the child is at cognitively at that point a ten-year-old again doesn't necessarily want to know all the anatomical details. They usually want to know did Mother and Dad love one another you know, and is that how I came into being or what made? Me it's much more on an emotional level that they're inquiring. It's not really until we develop mentally are into about 14 years of age that we really can begin to comprehend the complex biological issues and physiology of what sex is all about not to mention the emotional responsibility that's involved (00:26:31) at a callers on the line with a question. Hello. Hello. Dr. Eagle. I have a question concerning girls, especially junior high school girls in school given the AAU study and what it tells about girls getting basically short shrift in school in terms of attention and so forth and their extreme problems with self-esteem in those years. Is there any evidence that supports the use of single-sex schools during that (00:26:58) time? Absolutely. There are two or three studies out. Carol Gilligan is one of the people who has Done the most in terms of studying girls and single-sex schools single-sex girls single-sex school girls are able to demonstrably show Superior science and math scores two girls in co-ed situations. We think that that's because as you correctly said because of the self-esteem issue and that the educators are very obviously into maximizing whatever the girl comes into math or science with the fact that girls can and are encouraged to compete against one another that they are encouraged to see this as a challenge to their brains to their mind to their intellect and they are not put down when they stumble don't know the answer or encouraged to give up and that's what's typically found in co-ed education. And is that a girl says? Oh I can't do it. May or may not be able to do it and the teacher accepts that and says, oh well and then moves on and demands from the boy that he do it. He's not allowed to say I can't do it and get away with it. (00:28:16) Do a single-sex school seems to work as well for boys as (00:28:20) well. Yeah. Well, I think so. I'm not sure about the studies on that. But I do know there's a long history about why boys should go to single-sex schools. Also in terms of making them more comfortable. I think this all has to do with more comfortable with competition with your peers and your same sex (00:28:40) peers. Are you also mentioned in your book that there's some evidence to indicate that it would be better at least four girls. If if rather than sending kids off to Junior High Schools, they extended Elementary School basically K through 8 and then start (00:28:53) high school. That's a study that was done. Right that demonstrated that girls were more thrown more for a loop of entering Junior High in terms of the departmental. Moves from room to room teacher to teacher that they flourished better in an elementary school surrounding I don't know if that relates to science and math because I do because I don't think that that's been teased out of that kind of study but it's just in terms of how girls feel about themselves (00:29:23) go to another caller. Hello your question. Yes. I have a 12 year old daughter and one of the things that we've noticed in the past two or three years of her life of that. There's a lot of infighting amongst her female peers, and I'm wondering if you see this as kind of a normal developmental stage or is this a symptom of another symptom of society's pressure that we put on girls to be The Peacemaker and the caretaker of (00:29:47) feelings. Yeah. I absolutely agree with you and I do think it's a normal stage of development and and it's awful to watch and to be involved in whether that is induced in girls and 12 year old girls 11 to 13 year old girls by Society we live in I don't know I would suspect that it is I don't see why it has to be that way but the backbiting and the attacks and The Cutting other girls did and making girls totally miserable seems to be very can be very much a part of that time of development when girls were experimenting with clicks and groupings and trying to use the group as support for their own very inferior insecure feelings, (00:30:38) and and they tend to grow out of that at what? (00:30:40) Oh, yeah. Well dread as they come out of puberty, they'll grow out of it. Hopefully, there's still some backbiting adolescent girls, but they stand out is singular rather than part of a group. (00:30:52) Let's go to another caller. Hello. You're on Minnesota Public Radio. Thank you for taking my call. You had mentioned earlier that these self-esteem problems show up in girls after the ages of eight and nine. I was curious. Do you feel that? Part of the problem could be in more of a primal level for instance when brothers are growing up. You may have a big brother little brother situation. And in many cases, you know might makes right, you know, even though many times this is unfair after the ages of eight and nine into the teen years boys tend to grow larger and stronger than girls could this be a contributing factor to girls self-esteem problem since girls may be disadvantaged in terms of size and strength not only in adolescence but into adulthood, thank you. I'll hang (00:31:34) up. Yeah. Okay, I think girls are definitely at a disadvantage but not in terms of Might makes right or in terms of power and strength. I think this has to do with the difference in the physiological development of males from females. I think that males are admired and complimented and rewarded as they go through puberty in terms of the fact that they're getting to become more powerful more muscle power taller greater strength, thereby. Bodies aren't changing their bodies are just getting bigger and better girls are on the other hand are really changing totally their whole body Contours changing and certainly in puberty. They can go through some Dreadful times of what's called Baby Fat with rolls of fat around their midline, which is totally unexpected and no one knows exactly why that happens to majority of girls. They have lumpy figures dumpy figures all of which and it doesn't help much to say to them. Well, okay darling you'll be out of this by the time you're 14 or 15 because while they're going through it is humiliating 12, I've worked with so many 12 year old girls who are just beginning with breasts with their hips expanding their waist narrowing with they're saying I want to go back. I want to go back to my Straight body of eight nine years of age and they're just thrown for a loop by all of these radicals, you know. Not to mention hormones, but boys have hormone changes do or monel changes, but there's something about the body Contour actually changing this terribly disorienting. I think two girls and takes two or three years to adjust to (00:33:18) is that where the Eating Disorders come in then a an effort to kind of control the lumpiness and everything. They kind of get on that route or how does that gets (00:33:26) to well, there's a theory that it does start there eating disorders are really around 15 and 16 years of age when we know about them, but maybe the precursor does come out of the pubertal years. I don't know. I don't think we know enough about it. But eating disorders is certainly one of the risk that teenage girls are going to be faced with I feel because of the distrust in themselves that comes out of the pubertal time. (00:33:57) Hmm. Let's go to another caller. Hello. You're on the air. Yes. Thank you. Good afternoon. Dr. Eagle. Yes. Hello. Listen, I was wondering if about some clarification on the answer you gave to the first caller and I'd like to rephrase the question. I am raising my girl as a feminist and I noticed that parents of boys are not raising their boys as feminists. So what advice do you have for me in raising my girl aside from taking a book on how to raise their boys and hitting them over the head with (00:34:29) it? Yeah, right. Well that that was about what I wanted to say. I don't you know, what are you going to do with the whole male population except represent your position to the males around you but sure you know, what my advice is my advice is to talk to your daughter about this world that she's entering into as a feminist and and how she's going to deal with men who don't have the foggiest where she's coming from and that's The strengths we can give girls is to help them learn how to use their brains against stupidity and I think that you can help her tremendously from your position that way (00:35:09) the caller on the line with a question or comment. Hello. Hi. I have a question relating to the earlier comment about single-sex schools. Hmm. I think that in my experience single-sex schools for females seemed to work out pretty well, but single-sex schools for males a lot of the rationale behind that is that females are a distraction in the classroom and they'll just get in the way and males can learn so much better. If there aren't these female distractions around like they wouldn't be contributing anything to the conversation or learning and the classroom and a lot of times the attitudes that develop about females from males that come out of these single-sex schools seem to be less than positive and I wondered if you could comment on (00:35:50) that. Yeah. Well, that's a yeah sure that's a typical, you know chauvinistic position to take that. That's why we don't have girls. The school or why it's better for boys to have a male education you and I know that that isn't true and you and I can know that this is why boys May indeed be being indoctrinated already in terms of that. That's what girls are all about. They are just a distraction. They are something to to have around as a plaything a decoration and ornament and I don't know what to say about that other than again. It represents to me the larger society's values that we live in it's not a problem for girls though to I (00:36:32) mean they don't they get distracted by the boys in their classroom, especially in their junior (00:36:36) high. What's your I think it's an equal distraction between boys and girls. Hopefully it's an equal distraction between boys and girls I mean, But I think that there's a more profound issue going on in terms of I think that the caller was referring to the fact that girls are in if we think of single-sex schools for girls, we think of it not in terms of taking them away from the distraction of boys, but taking them away from competition with boys in which they are programmed to fail whereas she was saying in male edges single-sex schools part of the justification for having males without girls is the fact that girls are too distracting to males and it's going to make it easier for them. I think that was the point she was trying to make which I think is true in my experience. I mean the that's exactly what I have heard parents argue what's important for their boy to go to a male School versus co-ed (00:37:31) go to another caller. Hello. Hello. I just would like to ask the doctor's opinion as to why our society has Up to know at least put almost no effort into educating young males to look at themselves as parents and sort of say would you want you for a father? (00:38:00) Excellent? (00:38:01) Excellent and the social agenda now seems to be to put all of the burden on the young woman which in my opinion Is is just accepting the that the norm is that the young males will be able to do as they please without consequences. Right? What are we what needs to be done here too? Well, in my opinion, we just need a massive education program dealing exclusively with males and their role as fathers here and your responsibility. Okay, I'll come it. (00:38:45) Right. Well I couldn't agree with you more. But if you think I'm going to be able to answer why Society is structured this way then G. I've come across as very very knowledgeable. I don't know why it's that way. But as I said before the facts are that the poorest person in America is a single parent woman and this is a tremendous diatribe against our society. I think but why that is you tell me other than we could The our own female chauvinistic position and say that the men have developed at that way. I don't know do you think so. Let's go to another caller. (00:39:26) Hello. Hello. Yes your question, please. Yeah, I'm the mother of a three-year-old girl and I just can't help but thinking there are things that are feeding into her psyche. Now that I go up when she's eight to 12 years old is going to contribute to this drop and self-esteem. What can I be doing now to help prevent that or minimize that and I've got a second real quick question that might be part of this is that when you're around other parents particularly parents of boys and they do something with or to my daughter that the father comes into the mother comes in and says, oh you're just all boy or boys will be boys within her hearing. What can we do to help her deal with that? (00:40:05) Well to the first we have a three-year-old granddaughter and I was very thrilled when her mother what you read. The book said, she went out and bought a baseball and bat for her three-year-old and sure enough when I saw her in California there. She was swinging away at the ball now, it hadn't occurred to them somehow to make that toy. Or that Implement available to her although she's loaded with toys and I thought that was terrific and I think that that's what we can do with three year old girls two year old girls four year old girls is start to introduce Tinkertoys Legos building blocks for them which boy seemed to gravitate towards. So we provide that with them including trucks and cars. I think we should make that in their repertoire of toys as much as I feel that boys should be permitted to have houses and house furniture and dolls and all that kind of thing in terms of your second issue about boys will be boys. I think the only answer to that is and girls will be girls and I think a mother has to step in and speak up for her daughter when this kind of attitude is being expressed by the adults about their son that the the parents of the girl have got to step in and advocate for her. (00:41:28) Let's go to another caller. Hello your question, please. Yes, I've two items one. I just it's quite a coincidence. I just finished reading Deborah tenants book. You just understand right? And I'm just wondering how in fact as I was listening to you today. I thought gee there's an awful lot of parallels heal. Mmm. How does that how does that apply specifically if you could address that and then the second of all I have an 11 year old girl who went into puberty at age 10. Hmm and she insisted she's ugly. She insists that she's fat and all these things. How do I as a single father encouraged her and make her feel good about herself and Anyway, if you can help me out with that, (00:42:14) right? Well the I'm sorry we the tannin book is very much what I am talking about and I think unlike tan and I feel very much that we talk different languages because we're educated differently. And I think that there's no way that we can evaluate or extricate out the loading of the factor of how we're educated and how we were brought up in our society from the way we express ourselves. Do your second question. I think as a single father that you know, besides the obvious thing you can do is to show this girl your daughter respect and for her opinions and for her capacities is to discuss with her the fact that this is a Troublesome time that she's going through and that you can appreciate it. It's not too Jolly her out of it. I think that's a big mistake. We all make when we see somebody suffering or in conflict is we say there there there it's not so bad because it makes us uncomfortable to see them uncomfortable. So we want them to smile. We want them to feel better. I think that does disservice to what the child is actually experiencing and that we can help the child much more by the young girl much more by being sympathetic to and understanding and letting her know that we understand that this is painful but were there for support of her. (00:43:45) Is there any easy way to for parents and other people to determine when a when a child is simply going through what might be called (00:43:55) normal (00:43:56) normal depression as opposed to clinical depression where they really should get some help. (00:44:00) Yeah. I think it really depends on time. It's probably duration and the severity of it. I think it's normal to Certainly get depressed during pubertal years as well as be to go on highs and be terribly euphoric and exhilarated the mood swings are notorious during the pubertal years not to mention the Adolescent years to but all that velch merits stuff that comes in and later adolescence. I think again is typical of adolescence. You know, what am I doing here? Why was I put here what you know, what's my purpose in life? And why do we have all this suffering Etc is is good for adolescents in terms of demonstrating helping them. Think about the real problems. I think that we need to start looking for help. Once we both feel that our child can't be pulled out of the depression either by our own parental efforts or by the usual thing her peers the group she travels with the the recreation that she enjoys these things don't work. Then we're in real trouble and we could be in real trouble with that doesn't necessarily mean we are but we should seek outside help at that point. (00:45:27) Let's go to another caller. When a question. Hello. Hi. I have a question and we have a 10 year old daughter and a 14 year old son. And my daughter is very physically mature and for a ten-year-old she has breasts and and she's very outgoing and at this point she has a good self-esteem. I was wondering specifically there seems to be a fine line between guilt. Sex and feeling good about your body and we were raised I was raised in the 50s and 60s to believe that good girls. Don't enjoy their bodies. You know, it's very hard. I have some girlfriends who don't enjoy making love with their husbands and have a hard time. I mean I enjoy it but it's almost like you shouldn't enjoy it if you're a good girl. Uh-huh, and I'm wondering what we can do to help our daughters feel good about their bodies without promoting promiscuity and having sex at an early age. I think it's kind of a fine line between knowing that it's okay to enjoy your body and feel good about your body. But yet I don't want her to go out and have be having sex sex. Yes at the age of 14 or even she's maturing so (00:46:37) rapidly. Oh, well, you see I don't think there's a relationship. I think you're making a relationship that doesn't have to be made or you're making a relationship that our culture makes the somehow a woman who enjoys her body is going to go out and be promiscuous and very very sexual. I don't think that's true. I think that a lot of women who had Girls teenage girls who enjoy their bodies. Enjoy it through the knowledge that they've gained in terms of say Athletics Athletics is a terrific way for girls to really gain confidence in their bodies and feel good about themselves and I'm not talking about being a track star or anything like that. I'm just saying, you know being an ordinary basketball player or whatever girls can feel tremendously good about it as I say without this necessarily leading them to feel that now now they're going to go have intercourse every day or whatever it is that you're concerned about. I think that one of the healthiest developments for young women is to be able to feel that degree of comfort and pride in their bodies that one of the pleasures that will develop for them is a With pleasure that they can look forward to with an emotional component commitment with someone that they love (00:48:01) like we've got time for at least one more caller. Hello your question. Yes, one of your college was speaking about non-gender toys and I would also like to bring up the subject of household tasks of who's going to do one but and even though I'm weighing my 50s I live alone. Now, I'm divorced have no children the things that I joined enjoy. I know it's part laziness, but on the other hand I find I have to clean the house. I have to do my Lon I do all these things before I can sit down and say write something that an assignment I have or or maybe read a book I find myself doing all these things first and I think the young women nowadays, you know, they really should get into that task assignment where the males Do their share so that women can get to their full (00:48:57) potential right? I raised this issue a lot with friends of mine in terms of who takes out the garbage in your house. You know, that's a dead giveaway that I don't know a couple that it isn't the male's responsibility to take the garbage out in the house. Where is this the woman's females responsibility to do everything else cleaning the cooking and so on there's a nun the results are unfortunate study that was reported in the Wall Street Journal that girls spend 10 hours a week. This is adolescent girls spend 10 hours a week working in the house on household tasks. Whereas boys spend three hours and I agree with you that one of the ways we can help both our boys and our girls is to distribute this sense of responsibility for whatever the smooth operation of the house should be divided equally among the Sexes, (00:49:50) but we go we are about out of time ago. But 15 seconds for you to answer this question you always a lot of times we look at kids. We saw nothing to complain about. These are the best years of your (00:50:00) life. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Not many teenagers will look back upon it as their best years, but I do want to say that one of the most important things we can do as adults is to hang in with our teenagers and our teenage girls specifically and supporting them and respecting them (00:50:18) Our Guest day psychologist. Carol Eagle who is with the Montefiore Medical Center in New York City. She has a new book out called all that. She can be. Thanks so much.