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GARY EICHTEN: Police officers, of course, play a critical role in society. They are the people charged with keeping the streets safe and protecting us from the criminal element. We certainly see police officers often enough on the streets. We hear about them in the news. TV is full of programs about the police, but today we thought we would try to find out what it's actually like to be a cop. And so two Minneapolis Police officers have joined us to talk about their profession.

Detective Sergeant Pat McGowan has been on the force for 18 years. He currently works in the homicide robbery unit, and he is a state senator when he isn't being a police officer. And John Rauner is a patrol officer in Minneapolis' Third Precinct. That's in South Minneapolis. He's been with the police department for five years. Prior to that, he worked as a police officer in New Hope.

Gentlemen, Thanks so much for joining us. Is the job as dangerous as it appears to be? Officer Rauner?

JOHN RAUNER: I think the potential is there. Certainly we've seen that with the Haaf case. But as far as the day in and day out actually doing the job, I don't feel it constantly.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you think about it a lot? I mean, the possibility that you're going to get into a sticky situation.

JOHN RAUNER: I think it's always in the back of your mind, but you can't let it run your life and dominate your outlook.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, do you walk a beat or do you ride a patrol car? How does that work?

JOHN RAUNER: I normally ride a patrol car. I have done walking beats also, and I've been in the same district for the past four years.

GARY EICHTEN: Mm-hm. Sergeant McGowan, what do you do? Now, do you drive around in the car all day or what? Give us an idea of what your typical day as a detective is like.

PAT MCGOWAN: Our typical day is primarily follow-up investigations to crimes that have previously occurred. I primarily work in the robbery unit. For instance, today, now we will work on robberies that have occurred last night or previously in the city of Minneapolis.

We also respond to in-progress robbery calls, such as last Thursday and Friday, we had two bank robberies, of which we responded and two apprehensions were made in both of those this morning. Two of my colleagues went out and had arrested another person that was involved in a series of robberies that occurred in Minneapolis. We primarily do what would be termed follow-up investigation from an original crime, and then attempt to identify suspects in a crime and apprehend them.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, how do you identify suspects? You know, that's-- do you get a lot of tips from-- how does that work?

PAT MCGOWAN: Really, the success of our investigations in large part is the direct result of what Officer Rauner and the police departments do, responding to the initial call. Hopefully, they will do a very thorough initial investigation, obtain witnesses' names, victims' names, telephone numbers. And you just start calling people and it's just kind of like following a trail. One leads to another.

Somebody might give you some information that may identify another person. You call another person. They may yeah, I know somebody so and so by such and such a name. And eventually things just start falling into place.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, Officer Rauner, do people stop you and say, gee, I think I know somebody who did a bad deed here. Or how does that-- do you get tips like that, or?

JOHN RAUNER: I've had that happen oftentimes on the street as a patrol officer. We'll be involved with people who are involved in smaller crimes, petty crimes, oftentimes. They know people who are involved in other crimes and they'll tell us that.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you have to work by yourself?

JOHN RAUNER: No, I normally work with a partner.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, I would think that would be a lot better, wouldn't it? I mean, for a whole variety of reasons, to have a partner rather than having to go solo out there.

PAT MCGOWAN: Well, two sets of eyes are always better than one set.

GARY EICHTEN: Right, right. Let's take some calls. Hello?

SPEAKER 1: Hello.

GARY EICHTEN: You have a question for the officers?

SPEAKER 1: Yes, I do. I'd like to know if they have any idea as compared to, let's say, take a year from the 1950s, like 1955, like how many police officers Minneapolis had as compared to today? And how many arrests did they make and what percentage of convictions did they get in the 50s, per those number of arrests?

GARY EICHTEN: OK, first of all, size of the force, roughly, has it gone up, down?

PAT MCGOWAN: I don't know. In 1955, I was only four years old.

[LAUGHTER]

I would say that from when I started 18 years ago, the size, the actual number of sworn officers has gone down from when I started, I believe. We were up around 900, and I'm not even sure what the exact strength is now 730, 740. So the number has gone down.

I think with the number of crimes, the number of reported crimes is up, and I attribute-- there's different schools of thoughts on this. Some will say, do we actually have a crime increase? It's because we've encouraged people to report crime. More people are coming forward more. There are different schools of thoughts as to why.

But yes, we are having more crime today. And I think one of the things that I've seen is the viciousness and the violence increase in the amount of crime since I've started.

GARY EICHTEN: Officer Rauner, I have to ask you, before you went to work for the Minneapolis Police Department, you worked in the New Hope department, and I would think, on the face of it, that it would be better to be a police officer in the suburban community. It's less dangerous, isn't it?

JOHN RAUNER: I don't think people normally go into police work to avoid danger necessarily. And, you have to have that willingness to get out there and confront situations. And I found that being a police officer in Minneapolis was really the most challenging position in police work in this area. Challenging and very rewarding.

GARY EICHTEN: Get a chance to use all the skills, I suppose.

JOHN RAUNER: That's correct.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take another caller. Hello, you have a question for the officers? Hello?

SPEAKER 2: Yes, I'd like to ask the guests how they feel about the civilian review board. Has it improved police community relations? Do the officers feel it inhibits aggressive police work?

GARY EICHTEN: Mr. McGowan?

PAT MCGOWAN: I would say that it inhibits the police work, because one of the things that-- first off, I want to preface that comment, though, by saying that I certainly do believe that police officers need to be held accountable. The question that I look at is how many different avenues or sources or whatever, are you going to have to do that? One of the things that's happening now is, in the case of a lot of the drug raids that are going about, our officers that work on what we term a high-risk warrant team that serve on that, what is happening now is you've had it where-- at least, I've been told-- is that people involved in drugs and so forth are just going down, making complaints against the officers, hoping that if they will get enough complaints lodged against them, that the officers will back off from taking aggressive police action.

And I think there are avenues through the Minnesota Peace and Police Officer Licensing, the Post Board through the criminal courts. There are human rights. I mean, there are so many different avenues right now that police are having to turn around-- every time they turn around, they're having a complaint lodged with somebody else. And I think, as I said before, if somebody does something wrong-- I know Officer Rauner and myself, all my friends on the department want that person held accountable. But you want to make sure that there's a fair and a-- a fair process for everybody involved.

GARY EICHTEN: Given the community of police officers, if you do have an officer who is getting close to the line, is it common that you might take them aside and talk to them a little bit about it before he goes over the edge? He or she.

JOHN RAUNER: That's very common. There are situations that arise where an officer may step out of line. And I've seen numerous times where the other officers will take him aside and make sure that it doesn't happen again.

GARY EICHTEN: What do you have to do to become a police officer? Do you need special college training now? How does-- what are the requirements these days?

JOHN RAUNER: I believe the state requirements involve a two-year college degree, as well as 8 to 10 week recruit academy before you're even eligible to be hired. And then once you're hired by an agency, you're licensed through the state.

PAT MCGOWAN: I think one other criteria that fits in there also is that along with the two-year formal education is, I believe, it's a 15-week skills course, also that couples in. And then once a person is hired, then they would probably go through that individual, at least in our department. Then we have an individual police officer academy of 6 to 8 weeks or 10 weeks.

GARY EICHTEN: And how do you move from a patrol officer to a detective? Is that--

PAT MCGOWAN: Those-- well, it would go from a patrol officer to a sergeant to a lieutenant to a captain. Those are all civil service promoted positions, all written examinations, oral examinations. In fact, Officer Rauner just finished number three on our written promotion test for promotion to sergeant and had his oral board this morning just previous to coming here. So I wish him good luck.

JOHN RAUNER: Thank you, Pat.

GARY EICHTEN: We have two Minneapolis police officers in our studio today, something a little different here on Midday. Detective Sergeant Pat McGowan and John Rauner, who's a patrol officer in the third district in South Minneapolis, trying to find out today what it's like to be a police officer. Give us an inside look at that occupation. Let's take another call. Hello?

SPEAKER 3: Hello, my question is, in light of the shooting of police officer Haaf, is the police department, are they going to review their manning requirements as far as having police officers patrol alone? Or are they going to pair them up a little bit more, or is that something that's being considered?

GARY EICHTEN: All right. Well, first of all, what is the current situation? It varies. Sometimes you have to go out by yourself, sometimes you have a partner with? Is that--

JOHN RAUNER: It does vary throughout the city. Certain districts almost always involve a two-person patrol unit. And there are other areas that almost always involve a single officer.

I know that immediately after the Haaf slaying, there were a lot of threats that were coming in. Information was coming in to the department. And most of the supervisors throughout the city ran two-person patrol units in response to that. It's begun to go back to the original, but I think it's something that everybody is thinking about and keeping in mind. Whether there'll actually be a policy change on that, I think is rather doubtful.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take another call. Hello, your question?

SPEAKER 4: Yes, thanks for taking my call. I'd like the officers to comment on their experience, if any, in dealing with hate crimes against the gay community, and possibly offer insights on what the police force in general can do to increase its skill and sensitivity in responding to future such incidents.

GARY EICHTEN: Want to tackle that, Sergeant McGowan?

PAT MCGOWAN: Sure. I think hate crimes against any person, irrespective of what group it is, I think is unacceptable in our society by the people that live in our society. How do you attribute a hate crime? How do you identify a hate crime? That has been one of the sources of discussion, I know, not only as a police officer, but also we've had a lot of that at the legislature. And I was involved in passing a hate crimes bill legislation.

How do you identify it? Is it predicated solely on the fact that the victim tells you that? Does there have to be some substantiating evidence? Does it come because the police officer makes a determination?

So you first off try and figure out if you have a hate crimes. I think the sensitivity to any group, the police officers that I work with, and I'm very proud to be part of the unit that I do work in. I think they're probably some of the finest detectives not only in the state of Minnesota, but around the United States. They're there to do a job, and that's to solve crimes. And I think we try and be as sensitive to victims as we can.

I have always wanted to make a system that emphasizes the rights of victims over the rights of suspects. And I think, do we always do a perfect job in doing that? No. We can do a better job sometimes.

And I think each one of us, as an individual, needs to remember the trauma that's associated with a crime. And I think we see so much of it day in and day out that perhaps sometimes you become numb to it, or you forget the average individual that doesn't deal with that devastation it has on their lives. So I think we just need to try and do the best job that each of us can.

GARY EICHTEN: Given the-- given the people that you have to deal with regularly-- in other words, people who have broken the law and so on, do you think that gives you a skewed view of humanity in general? Do you get an opportunity to deal with regular people enough?

PAT MCGOWAN: Well, we always say we never get invited to the weddings, just the divorces. But let Officer Rauner.

JOHN RAUNER: Well, I think the perception that we only deal with criminals is not really accurate. I would say that probably for every criminal that I talk to on a daily basis, I probably talk to at least two or three victims. And very often, that can play as big a part in my outlook as talking to criminals.

GARY EICHTEN: Right.

PAT MCGOWAN: There's also different facets of the job. I mean, it's very gratifying to return a lost child to a family that has lost a youngster and to the joy that you look and that's-- those are the things that recharge your batteries, when you can be involved in something where you look and you really make an impact on a family or you can help a family that's facing something that's very traumatic to them, that has something other than a negative outcome for them.

GARY EICHTEN: Two Minneapolis Police officers have been kind enough to join us, Detective Sergeant Pat McGowan and John Rauner, a patrol officer in Minneapolis. An opportunity for those of you listening and for those of us here to find out a little bit more about what it means and what it's like to be a police officer in the city. Let's take some more calls now. Questions for the officers here in our studio. Hello, you're on the air.

SPEAKER 5: Hello. I was calling because I was wondering if there were any legal or ethical problems of a police officer running a criminal check on someone without probable cause or any criminal activity, just to satisfy his own curiosity?

PAT MCGOWAN: Yes, there would be. Those records are for law enforcement purposes only, and it would be inappropriate for a police officer to be doing that.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take another caller. Hello?

SPEAKER 6: Hello.

PAT MCGOWAN: Hi.

SPEAKER 6: Hello, how are you doing?

PAT MCGOWAN: Good.

SPEAKER 6: I have a question. I was wondering, first of all, do you have enough moral and ethical support for all the police officers. And the second question is, are you continuing your experience ride-alongs as far as your cruisers are concerned?

GARY EICHTEN: What kind of support do you get from the community? Obviously, it would vary, I'm sure, across the board, but in general, are the people pretty supportive of the police department?

JOHN RAUNER: In general, I find the community to be very supportive. In fact, that's one frustration is the perception in the media that there is so little support for us. And yet, on a daily basis, I see lots of support from the community. So I feel very supported.

GARY EICHTEN: Sergeant McGowan, you've been with the force for 18 years. Do you think it's changed at all, or has that basic support remained pretty solid?

PAT MCGOWAN: No, I think Officer Rauner said it very well. Unfortunately, what gets reported is when there is an incident between the police and the community or a disagreement, it seems that reporting overshadows the real support that's out there for the police. And a lot of people-- it's amazing, not only during the Haaf shooting, but during the course of your 18 years, the letters that you get from people that have taken the time to write you a personal letter and say thanks for what you did, I really appreciate it. And those are all the things that keep you going.

But sometimes, you will get people that, for whatever the reason, are reluctant to go on a TV camera for whatever. So sometimes it's just the opposite side that gets reported, and I think that's a misrepresentation. I feel that the average citizen in the city of Minneapolis, the average business owner in the city of Minneapolis, the average homeowner in the city of Minneapolis is supportive of their police.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take another caller. Hello?

SPEAKER 7: Yeah, hi. I've got a comment and then a question. My comment basically is to thank the officers. I think you guys do a terrific job.

Some years ago, I was lucky enough to go on a police ride-along program. It was on a weekend. It was downtown. And the kind of abuse, the kind of difficulties, the kind of problems that the officers I rode with had to face were just phenomenal.

I guess my question is, what keeps you going? In that kind of tough environment, and sometimes in situations where the political people might not be as supportive as they could be, how do you guys get up every morning and go to work? I've got a lot of admiration for you. I'll hang up and listen.

GARY EICHTEN: Good question. How do you do it?

JOHN RAUNER: Let me first say thanks a lot for the comment, and we appreciate that. And I know, I know everybody does. As far as getting up every morning and doing the job, it is a very challenging and stimulating and rewarding job. And I think it's the kind of job that you have to love it in order to keep at it day after day. And--

GARY EICHTEN: What about the abuse, though, that the caller called? I mean, I would think that would be very difficult to deal with and difficult not to respond to, frankly.

PAT MCGOWAN: Well, not only the abuse. I mean, the abuse is one facet of it. And I think you kind of learn, you grow with that. You grow with that.

I mean, I can hopefully now can look and can feel when something is verbally threatening to me versus to what I feel, a verbal threat that will be followed up by a physical confrontation. Obviously, I'm going to be much more worried about the latter than just the verbal assault on me. The verbal assault, sure it hurts. I mean, if people were to sit back and to really be honest with themselves and say, how would you enjoy it in front of a group of 50 people, to have somebody berate you, embarrass you, swear at you, say the worst things you could ever think about your family, your mother, your wife, your sister, threaten your family?

What you get a lot of is people, suspects will say, I'm going to get even with you. I'm going to get your wife, I'm going to get your mother, whoever the family member is, they may do. The abuse is one part of it, Gary. But I think another aspect of it, too, is being able to separate yourself from not only the abuse, but what you go through in a day, the different types of crimes. It's sometimes very difficult for people doing the job that I do, whether it's to go from a homicide scene or a violent crime scene to an all of a sudden you're supposed to, 20 minutes later, be at home to be attending a birthday party for one of your children, or a party for somebody else, and you're supposed to all of a sudden forget one set of emotions and put on--

GARY EICHTEN: How do you do that? I would think that would be impossible.

PAT MCGOWAN: Go ahead.

JOHN RAUNER: I think it's a skill. It's a skill you develop, as Pat was saying, changing emotions and changing hats during the day. You do that not only leaving the job and going home, but you do that on a daily basis throughout the day.

GARY EICHTEN: Doesn't that take a toll? I mean, at some point, you just don't-- don't you need to actually sit back and--

JOHN RAUNER: Sure.

GARY EICHTEN: --kind of well, soak it up?

PAT MCGOWAN: Well, I think one of the things that you do, and each one of us perhaps has our own way of dealing with it. I mean, I'll be very straightforward with you and the other people. I quit drinking eight or nine years ago.

I also-- I don't do a lot of association with a lot of police officers when I'm off duty. I kind of have a separate group of friends that I associate with, some of which may be police officers. One is-- probably two of my best friends are police officers, but we don't talk about police work when we get together. It's more sports or hunting or fishing or something like that.

And you look also to your family for a lot of support. That has been very satisfying for me as an individual, as no matter how bad things get or what perhaps you read about yourself or something that may be alleged against you in a newspaper or something like that, to have the support of your family and friends really means a lot to you in those times.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take another call. Hello?

SPEAKER 8: Hi, I'm calling from Duluth, and I had a question for the officers regarding the issue of police misconduct, or police brutality and the fraternity that exists among police officers. And I think that I know I and my friends have gotten very frustrated when there's been obvious misconduct and the Police Federation or police officers continued to defend the behavior of the officers on the scene. And that was most brutal, I think, with Chief Daryl Gates and his behavior.

GARY EICHTEN: Sure.

SPEAKER 8: And I've seen John Locke speak out against police misconduct. But other than that, it seems like police officers always defend themselves.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Do too many things get swept under the rug in an effort to protect your own?

JOHN RAUNER: I don't think so.

PAT MCGOWAN: No. I think as I said before--

GARY EICHTEN: I mean, it would be pretty normal. And I think in most professions, that would-- the people who work in a given place want to put a kind of a united front to the public, not to hide things, necessarily, but because they're all working in the same place.

PAT MCGOWAN: One of the things that very often, Gary, comes into play is somebody after a factor at a different point in time will come up and will say, let me tell you about an incident that I was involved in, and this is what happened with the police, and this is what went on and so forth. And maybe where the voter or your listener came up with that response was is that it might be a lot of the answers that police will give in either justifying perhaps why maybe that happened. But not being there, I would be very hesitant to criticize another police officer without being on the scene and actually witness what went on from both perspectives.

It's because one of the things that happens is, for instance, we get a call, we get a police call to a party with a gun, let's say. A person calls up the police and says, so-and-so was just in my store. He was armed with a gun, and he just left and he's walking eastbound on Lake Street.

Call comes over a police radio. There's-- and you, the audience, can decide whoever the person wants to be in their mind. But the description of that person, the clothing description of that person, party with a gun. So the police spot that person walking down the street.

Now, to the average person just out and about, they don't have the information that someone just called in and said, this person was armed with a gun. So what they see is that police officers open their car door, either stop, either take the person at gunpoint, or if there's plainclothes officers that can get close enough to them to physically, perhaps grab them to immobilize his arms, do a quick pat search of the outer garment, and people are saying, why are they doing to that individual? He didn't do anything wrong. You're doing it predicated on the information that you've received.

And that's-- and a lot of what you find out is that there's not the full background of information, in a lot of cases, that the police are dealing with. Prior knowledge of people involved in incidents, although, as I say, the patrol officers in the street they go through, they deal with a lot of the same people day in and day out. They know a lot of the people that are armed with guns, that carry guns, that carry weapons that pose a bigger physical threat to them. And obviously, they're going to react differently when dealing with those people to ensure their own safety.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take another caller. Hello, you're on the air.

SPEAKER 9: Yes, I have a question for Officer Rauner. And I would like to know what are some specific ways that we, as members of the community, can assist the police in reducing crime. Thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks for your call.

JOHN RAUNER: Well, I think it's important to recognize, first of all, that our job relies very heavily on community support and people getting involved. And that's a big part of it right there. Citizens in the community, when you observe something suspicious or a criminal act in progress, it's important to get involved, at least to the extent that you call 911.

Stay on the phone. Provide descriptions. Be willing to be a witness if that's necessary later on. That participation on the part of citizens is crucial, and we wouldn't get half of what we get done now without that assistance.

GARY EICHTEN: How do you sort through what it is you're going to do? Now, I would imagine during the course of a day, especially a patrol officer, well, you could arrest somebody pretty much or give them tickets for one thing or another, all day long if you wanted to. How do you-- from jaywalkers on up? How do you sort through and decide to look the other way at this, that, and the other thing? And how do you sort through that?

JOHN RAUNER: Well, a lot of your job is dictated by the 911 system when you're in the patrol unit. You may witness petty crimes. Minor traffic violations occur numerous times during the day. However, you are at that time responding to a 911 emergency somewhere else so you drive past that incident and handle the call.

So in that way, there is some structure, although we never know from day to day what's going to occur. And that's part of the excitement of the job. When we're not responding to 911 calls, then oftentimes we're out doing proactive patrol, looking for criminal acts and traffic violations and things like that.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, let's take another caller. Hello.

SPEAKER 10: Hi. I wanted to make a comment just real quickly first, about the gentleman that called in about the beatings and police brutality. I'm a cop's wife. My husband's been in law enforcement for about 12 years, and he was one of the first in our-- I'm from the UP-- in our area to say that the officers involved with the Malice Green case and the Rodney King case should be prosecuted so that everything can come out in a court of law. People were surprised to hear him say that.

I don't know that I've ever seen the ranks close on cops who had done wrong. And then I just had a question for the officers, I wondered, in the Minneapolis area, do they feel an us against them type of mentality with the cops on the street just with the average person, not necessarily people who are generally involved in crimes, but your average middle class person. Do they feel that any type of animosity or hostility?

PAT MCGOWAN: No, I think it's just the opposite. Rather than say, us against them, I would say it's us with them for the law-abiding citizen. I think that's what we look at. There are many of us, and I would say most police officers, 99% of them, that's what we enjoy doing, making our communities safe so that people can live in a community.

A quality of life is predicated on having a safe community. I mean, that's the bottom line for a lot of people. They want to be able to go out and go for a walk at night. They want to make sure that their children can play in their front yards, at the playgrounds, in their neighborhoods, that their neighborhoods are safe for their families. And so you need to work with those people, not work against them.

Is it us against them when it comes to the criminal element? Yeah, it is. And my hope is that we will prevail over them and we will continue to wage that battle against them because I'm a firm believer that whatever quality of life you have is directly related to the quality of your neighborhood.

GARY EICHTEN: Why don't more police officers live in the city? People who work for the Minneapolis Police department, why are more of them-- why don't more of them live there too? I would think that would improve the community ties and so on.

PAT MCGOWAN: I think-- I'll take a stab at it for myself. One of the things that I looked at is I think we gravitate to where values, morals, norms are similar to what we have as ourselves. And what I found those were more prevalent in the community when I built a home 17 years-- yeah, 17 years ago now in Maple Grove, the Northwest suburb, I felt that was more conducive to what I was looking for.

I was, as a police officer, wanted a place that number one, I could get away from my job at the end of the day, that when I went home, I wasn't-- I didn't want something that every time there was a problem in the neighborhood, somebody saying, will you do something? Will you do something? That's not bad for people to expect that, but you also look for your own mental well-being. And Gary, being very candid and very honest with you and your audience, I think I've seen a lot of my colleagues move out of the city because of the rising crime problem and because of, perhaps, the education system. That's been the two main reasons.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take another caller. Hello?

SPEAKER 11: Hello.

GARY EICHTEN: Your question, please.

SPEAKER 11: I'm a grateful subscriber of Minnesota Public Radio. Excellent program. I'm a third generation from Minneapolis, and I've known John Rauner for 30 years, and I'm grateful Minneapolis has an outstanding person like John Rauner, and I hope he makes sergeant. The question-- what one, two, three suggestions do the men have for suburban white people to understand poor people of Minneapolis urban areas.

GARY EICHTEN: Take a shot at that, Officer Rauner?

[LAUGHTER]

I might add he looks very impressive, by the way, with his blue uniform on and the badge, the--

JOHN RAUNER: I'm still trying to figure out who the caller is, but--

SPEAKER 11: I'm Roger Anderson, and I've known John.

JOHN RAUNER: OK, yes, I know Roger.

SPEAKER 11: A great man. A great man.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. What about people who don't live in the city? What are some tips for people to try to help them understand the city a little better?

JOHN RAUNER: Well, I think what you're talking about here is race relations. And racism is a reality. It's a reality in our society. It's a reality in our culture, and it's something that we all need to work to overcome.

I think police officers are in a unique role in that. Whenever there's social unrest or change that comes about, we're usually in the middle of it. And we've seen that in the city here over the past few years and actually, throughout a lot of recent history. I think Pat can probably give a little more perspective on that over the last 18 years. As far as addressing that issue between white suburbanites and minority people of color living in the inner city, it's a tough issue.

PAT MCGOWAN: I guess I maybe take a somewhat of a different view. Your caller had stated, how do we understand poor people? I look at why do you have to understand them.

I mean, what you look for people-- I think one of the things that as a society, we have become is we have become a much more "me society" rather than a "we society." I think if we want to change things, we need to become more of a "we society." How do we help other people? And I use the key word help, not doing it for them, but helping people help themselves.

And that's one of the things that I believe we must, as a society must do, is stop focusing just on what's good for me. If it's not good for me, I don't really care what happens. And that's unfortunate. I think as far as for understanding, and I'm a little perplexed by the question, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am big on holding people responsible for their actions. I don't-- I mean, I'm always willing to help somebody. I'm willing to give someone a hand.

But I also believe we as a society need to be accountable for ourselves as individuals. And that's where I think the understanding will come from. Not when we say-- and not to lump everybody into one category-- there's lousy whites. There's lousy Blacks, lousy Hispanics. Every ethnic group is going to have people that do not put on a favorable coat for that race.

And I take a look at it, as being a police officer, it doesn't matter to me what race a person is. Doesn't matter to me in the least. All that I want is that we have a set of laws out there that govern our society, and we all need to be accountable for those laws. And if we choose not to respect those laws, then we need to be accountable for our actions and held responsible for our actions.

GARY EICHTEN: 19 minutes before 1:00. Our guest today, Detective Sergeant Pat McGowan and Patrol Officer John Rauner, who works in the Third Precinct in South Minneapolis. Two Minneapolis police officers who have joined us today to try to give us a better insight in what it's like to be a police officer. Reminder that Midday on Thursday is supported by Saint Paul Academy and Summit School, where students discover the world around them and the world of possibilities within themselves. Let's take another caller. Hello.

SPEAKER 12: Hi.

GARY EICHTEN: Your question please.

SPEAKER 12: Yeah, I'd just like to make a comment. I wrote a letter to the Star Tribune, probably about two or three months ago, and it was in relation to Ice-T's album Cop Killer. And I'd like to-- I'd like the officers to respond on that.

What I did was in the letter, I tried to raise a number of issues. One was the fact that I felt that Ice-T's album and his song "Cop Killer" was a result of the way African-American, young African-American males have been traditionally treated by the police in the community, throughout history, and the way it is now in the present. And also just the fact that there seems to be-- I think that the police are getting too much praise as far as in dealing with the young African-American community, because as far as my experiences are concerned, I have only had reluctant experiences whereas I fear the police. And I'm not sure if the police fear me, but I always feel like I'm subject to being abused in any one particular time.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, what do you think about that song?

SPEAKER 12: What do I think about the song?

GARY EICHTEN: No, the guests here.

PAT MCGOWAN: I've never heard it.

GARY EICHTEN: Yeah.

PAT MCGOWAN: I've never-- I've never heard it. I have no intention of listening to it. I would certainly have no intention of buying it, and--

GARY EICHTEN: Do you think that kind of a record and other elements of popular culture that would be described as anti-police, do they in fact affect people's behavior or are they just sort of out there, and?

JOHN RAUNER: I haven't heard the song itself sung. I have read the lyrics, and I think it goes far beyond being anti-police. You're talking about a song here that encourages murder.

GARY EICHTEN: Right?

JOHN RAUNER: And--

GARY EICHTEN: Do you think that affects people? I mean, do you think somebody might actually act on a thing like that?

JOHN RAUNER: --I have no doubt of it. And I'd be-- I'd be very surprised if the young men involved in the Haaf killing, hadn't heard that song at some point in their life. Whether that inspired them to do what they did, I can't say. But when you have songs like that constantly being played to kids who are 12, 13, 14, 15 years old, they're very impressionable, and I can't believe that it doesn't have some impact.

PAT MCGOWAN: I think maybe an analogy, Gary, might also be is that I think I've heard repetitively from certain psychologists and people that will link pornography with sex crimes. And I think you look at this, you draw the same correlation between that and what this is. And I think the amount of violence that we see on TV and the violence that's glorified and that's also that's just taken as part of oh, it's no big deal. We just killed seven people in the movie, or we killed how many in Terminator 2 or whatever.

And the lack of respect for human life in a lot of this stuff, and I think it's about time that-- I hear all the time from people as a legislator, well, why don't you regulate what can go on TV? My question becomes is, where are the parents and where are the people turning off the TV set and governing what the heck their kids are watching?

GARY EICHTEN: Right. Let's take another caller. Hello, your question?

SPEAKER 13: Yeah, I'm a law enforcement student. As a matter of fact, I'm one of Sergeant McGowan's students at MCC. And I was wondering if either of the officers have any advice from their own experience to help students such as myself better prepare themselves for the job?

GARY EICHTEN: Any way to actually prepare, short of getting your proper education, going through your training, and-- anything else people need to do?

PAT MCGOWAN: I think they really need to make sure that this is what they want to do in life because it gets glamorized a lot, I think, from the TV shows is that there's always something that's going on. But I think I've seen the makeup and composition of police officers change a lot in the 18 years that I've been on the department. And I think-- I had a conversation over the weekend with a gentleman that called me at home that's going to Mankato State that just asked if he could talk for a little bit about the very thing that your caller just said. And I think it distilled down to he's got to make the decision if this is the career that he wanted to choose.

GARY EICHTEN: Let me ask you this, and then I think we'll have time for one more caller. Are there any TV shows or movies that have accurately portrayed life as a police officer? I mean, the rest of us can't be police officers because we're not police officers. But if we're kind of interested in getting a better idea of what it's like to be a police officer, are there any TV shows or movies that have accurately captured what you folks do? Officer Rauner?

JOHN RAUNER: I'm not sure there's any that I can really think of.

GARY EICHTEN: They're way off base, all of them?

JOHN RAUNER: Well, I would say probably of the ones out there, the show, in my opinion, that probably came closest was the Hill Street Blues series. I enjoyed it a lot. It was a good show. Again, though, not totally accurate.

GARY EICHTEN: Sergeant?

PAT MCGOWAN: I really don't watch a lot of police shows.

[LAUGHTER]

And I-- and I guess that's I feel just like John does on it. I think you can look at different shows and you can maybe say, yeah, that's partially true. But I think for the most part, they're glamorized for TV in what the police officer goes through in them is far from what a normal day brings in.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take another caller. Hello.

SPEAKER 14: Hi. I have three related questions.

GARY EICHTEN: OK, quick ones?

SPEAKER 14: Yep. Can both of you share with us what continuing education or ongoing training programs that police officers need to make their jobs safer and/or less stressful? That's one question. And then comments on any situations or situations that you have faced, where an ongoing training program may have made your job safer or less stressful.

GARY EICHTEN: OK.

SPEAKER 14: And then the last question, if there was a training program, what type of a price tag would there be on that?

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Which one do you want to take a shot at that one?

PAT MCGOWAN: Well, I would say, first off that we are regulated by the Police Officer Standard and Training Board in the state of Minnesota, and they do set out license requirements with continuing education every year. We have to have so many hours every year to have your license renewed in the state of Minnesota. And a lot of that direction either comes from the legislature as to what will be taught from the standards from the police community itself.

The training cost, I can't really say. I know one of the things that we're focusing on now relates back to what one of the previous questions was, and that is on victims understanding victims' rights a little bit better. What's involved in legislation that has been passed to help victims throughout the system?

What has helped me in the way of training? All of my training has. I mean, you can look at one time or another, you've probably done something that's involved all of it. The thing that I guess I always remember is my officer's safety training. I figure the most important thing is I want to make sure at the end of a shift that my partner goes home and that I go home to our families. So that's the thing that I really stress is officer safety.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's take one more caller. Hello. Your question please.

SPEAKER 15: Hi, I was kind of interested in just making a little statement and then see if you had a comment on it.

GARY EICHTEN: Very briefly, we're running out of time.

SPEAKER 15: OK. For public perception of police nowadays is kind of a real important issue. And I think most people's perception is not so much coming from their views of the big incidents like the King beating and things like that, but the everyday interaction with police. And I'm a pretty law-abiding citizen. But I'd say more often than not, I've been met with antagonism and kind of a sarcastic attitude from a lot of people, a lot of police, probably about 70% of the time. And I don't interact with police a lot.

GARY EICHTEN: OK.

SPEAKER 15: But I think a lot of that, and I understand--

GARY EICHTEN: Your question? Do you have a question then?

SPEAKER 15: Well, the question is, what is the role of professionalism? I think there's a lot of good professionals in the police industry, but I think there's a lot of people that kind of lose that professionalism.

PAT MCGOWAN: Sure. What I would encourage to all of your audience, Gary, is that I would encourage him to go on a ride-along with their local police department.

GARY EICHTEN: Regular people can do that?

PAT MCGOWAN: Regular people, yeah. Call your local police departments and tell them you'd like to ride along with your police officer. I mean, they're the police officers that represent those communities. And I think what's really important is for people to get to know the police officer outside of a crisis situation, i.e., the crisis situation, when the police officer stops you either for some violation. Get to see what they go through on a daily basis.

See, my first thought that on the last caller's question was, sure, sometimes we're short. Is the reason we're short because we have just come from a car accident where a child has been killed in? Have you just come from a shooting call or a stabbing call or a rape that has affected you before? And I would just encourage people, I think the best way to see what police do, the best way to understand them, go ride with them for a night or for a shift. And I think that would do good for both the police officer as well as the members of the community.

GARY EICHTEN: We, unfortunately, have run out of time. Thanks so much for coming in, both of you.

JOHN RAUNER: Thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: John Rauner, who is a patrol officer in the third precinct in South Minneapolis, and Detective Sergeant Pat McGowan, who's also a member of the state Senate.

PAT MCGOWAN: Thank you, Gary, for having us.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks a lot.