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SPEAKER: Welcome to the studio, Gleason Glover, who is going to be at a dinner tonight, along with a lot of other folks at the Minneapolis convention center who'll be gathering to honor Mr. Glover as a national leader in the Civil Rights movement in this country. He has served as the president and CEO of the Minneapolis Urban League for a quarter of a century. He recently announced his retirement from that post. Gleason Glover was active in the Civil Rights movement back in college in Virginia, where he organized sit-ins.

He was one of the major architects of the Minneapolis civil rights ordinance, along with Mayor Arthur Naftalin. And he was one of the early organizers of selective buying campaigns, which resulted in affirmative action programs in the corporate community. In the 1970s, Gleason Glover was president of the National Urban League council of executives, and he has served over the years as one of the chief spokesman for the National Urban League and its affiliate. We're happy to have you here in the studio. Thanks for coming by.

GLEASON GLOVER: I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER: Well, who do you think is going to be at the dinner tonight? Have you started hearing from people?

GLEASON GLOVER: No, unfortunately, I've not been a part of it. A group of friends, of people who thought I did something, decided to do it for me. And they've only told me to be there at 6:00 o'clock. And so I haven't had any other input in the process. And I find it very difficult, because I've been giving so much in my life, I don't know really how to accept. And it's been a nervous day for me because I don't really know how to accept things. I've been giving so much of my life.

SPEAKER: When you were in Virginia and in college, why did you personally decide to become active in the Civil Rights movement?

GLEASON GLOVER: All my life I had seen the injustices take place. And I said to myself, as Rodney King said, why can't we just live together? I thought there had to be a way of changing what I saw and was affecting all of us to such an extent that something had to be done. The separate counters, the separate living conditions, the hostility of race. That was very important.

SPEAKER: You had lived this in, was it one of the Carolinas?

GLEASON GLOVER: Virginia? I was born in Virginia. I spent most of my formative years in the South. From the time I was born until I left in 1961. And so, I was a product of that environment. I saw it, and I had a vision that one day, if I could do anything to change those conditions, I wanted to do that. And the Civil Rights movement gave me that first opportunity to really pursue that interest and that vision.

SPEAKER: Now, with race relations changing in the past 25 years, I suppose the key question is, how have race relations changed?

GLEASON GLOVER: That's a hard one to deal with because, to some extent, they have changed. But on the other hand, it's the same. If you look at the commonality of concerns and the way our young people interact, in many cases today, you see a lot of interracial marriages, a lot of White and Black and people of color integrated in ways that they're finding themselves friends and enjoying life. But when you look at the hard statistics of reality, you ask yourself the question, what kind of economic gains have taken place and what kind of gains that betters one's life? We find that that's on the negative side.

I'd be less than candid to say that individually, Blacks and other minorities have gained on an individual basis. We have the Colin Powells you can look at, or the late Richard Greene's, or many other examples of people who have achieved great success on an individual basis. But when you collectively look at what has happened to the African-American community and communities of color or people of color, you find that economically and socially, we're worse off than we were 15, 20 years ago.

SPEAKER: Who now do you think are the groups or the individuals carrying the banner of the Civil Rights movement for Black people in this country? We have the leaders of prominent national organizations, the Hooks and the Lowery's and the Glovers, who have been on the scene for a long, long time. And then we have the rap musicians. We have sports figures. Who are the people being listened to?

GLEASON GLOVER: I think that to try to identify that as leadership in a definitive way is impossible, because I think African-Americans suffer from the same thing White American suffer from. Who is carrying the leadership in White America? Well, you got the same people, the rock musicians, the athletes. And people always try to find that one leader in the African-American community, that a Jesse Jackson or who is it?

And I say to myself, if I were to ask you what White person could marshal all the White support in America, who that person be certainly wouldn't be the president, and it wouldn't be anybody that I know. I mean, so I guess what I'm saying is that what you see in the African-American community is really a mirrored vision of what is happening in society as a whole. I mean, our whole society is fragmented on the basis of leadership. There is very limited leadership as I see it today.

SPEAKER: We always look to the 1960s as the era of gain, unprecedented gain, unparalleled gain. You, I have the impression, though, I have an analysis of the 1960s as a way that, yes, there was gain, but we also transformed the country in a way that is having some very negative side effects.

GLEASON GLOVER: Yes. When I look at the pre-1960s, and I look at the '80s and '90s, I see some very different things. The '60s were a period of time where American minorities and people of color made substantial gains. There was an awakening of America, the sensitivities of race relations in a way it was never done before. But in doing so, we destroyed all the existing standards and values that prior to that time guided us in terms of how it would be.

The whole question of pursuit of excellence, the idea of caring, many of the values that we have embodied in our whole society were destroyed. And the result of that today is that we have a society that doesn't care. We have values that have not been transmitted down to our young people. So we have a cultural clash in terms of values. And one of the best examples that I can give is the gang situation in this country today. Our young people, our traditionally, place a value on life that we had never thought of.

For example, when I was coming up, and in the African culture, life is a very precious thing. I mean, you wouldn't kill anybody. I mean, but after the '60s and after the '80s and after the values were taken away, we find a system now that our young people set up a value system that's in contradiction to the majority value system of our society. And this isn't true among minority youth. It's true among white youth, too.

SPEAKER: I gather, though, there's been a reaction. I hear, as you certainly hear, of efforts by groups in St. Paul, Minneapolis, and indeed across Minnesota, to either form mentoring programs for young Black men, for example, or young Black women, both groups, other kinds of efforts, whether it be by individual business leaders or organizations, to make an attempt to reach out. That is happening, I gather.

GLEASON GLOVER: It is true.

SPEAKER: But I sense that it is obviously not enough.

GLEASON GLOVER: No, it's not enough. Because when you look at-- these groups only meet a small number of those youngsters that are out there. The kind of mentoring that takes place now are going to be the drug dealers, the pimps, the people making the easy money. And part of that is because, if you look at the majority of society and you look at the scandal on Wall Street, where the billion-dollar scandals and SNLs, I mean, the question of honesty and integrity as a value just is not as pervasive across this country. So people think nothing about cheating and stealing and doing things.

Now, if you cheat as a banker, you're considered embezzling money. So they'll give you a nice little tidy jail cell, or maybe nothing if the company doesn't want to press charges. If you steal a loaf of bread as a Black, you get put in jail. I mean, the value that we use is still being worked with in terms of dishonesty and lack of trust, but in terms of the outcome of it, it's going to be worse for the minority or people of color than it is for the White. But it's a value crisis in our society today.

SPEAKER: Let's talk for a moment about housing patterns in Minneapolis and St. Paul and suburban areas of the Twin Cities, primarily since that's the focus of much of Minnesota's Black population. Still, heavy segregation in terms of steering by real estate agents, in your opinion?

GLEASON GLOVER: Oh, yes, of course. There's still a pattern of discrimination in housing that has taken place in the city. I mean, we've seen it in the redlining of banks who just don't make loans in certain areas, although it's against the law. I mean, we find that it happens not only here in Minneapolis but around this country. People don't really understand that racism is still alive and well in our society today. I mean, it's disguised in many forms, but it still exists. And I think until we face that reality of trying to eliminate it, we just won't make it.

SPEAKER: What's happening on the housing front when Black people move to a suburban location? You happen to be a resident of Golden Valley. What kind of reception did you get?

GLEASON GLOVER: Well, Golden Valley. I mean, the Blacks have moved out there for the last 20 or 30 years. I think generally, you don't get the kind of negative reception you used to get. But when people come to the city and they come to the city with a company or something, the real estate agent just don't show them places in the inner city. They show them places outside the city or places where they think they'll be comfortable.

SPEAKER: What do you hear about what is happening to Black families when, as they are, when they move to Bloomington, to Burnsville, to Eagan, to Eden Prairie?

GLEASON GLOVER: One of the problems that a lot of companies have had as they recruit African-Americans have been because they are isolated, that many of them decide to leave soon. So they get here, and then they don't get the comradeship or the things they're used to, the food they're used to, the social life they're used to, so they end up going someplace else. And so in a short period of time, they come here, they make a mark, and they come. Then they're ready to pick up their bags and move someplace else where they feel more comfortable.

SPEAKER: What is the community doing to respond? Is the community doing anything to respond, either white people as part of a group or individuals? Do you figure anything?

GLEASON GLOVER: Well, I think a lot of things have been done. I mean, there have been groups in certain suburban areas who sort of bring these people in more. And Black groups have-- a lot of the Black people, African-Americans, who come here connect with this fraternal groups or their social clubs that they bring from the city. So they do have a social life to some degree that's different. But by and large, the isolation, the feeling of the culture not being attuned with what they've seen in Atlanta, Georgia, or either Detroit or Chicago, caused them to want to go other places.

SPEAKER: Do you think some of the difficulty that people, white people, have in relating to Black people is as much class-based as race-based perhaps?

GLEASON GLOVER: To be honest, I think it's survival based. I think one has to understand fully that the world is changing. I think the most recent demographics that I've read indicates that only 16% of the world is white, 84% is his non-white. Projected demographics for the year 2056 says that 60% of America is going to be Brown. I think Minnesota and Minneapolis is just beginning to feel that aspect of life.

I think that a lot of it is based on an advantage that has been White so long that's suddenly beginning to change. I mean, there has been, in this society of ours, a distinct White advantage that's being threatened now, not only by the color race in America but by worldwide competition. Jobs are being taken away, the global economy in which we live. And so, for the first time in a long time, White youth or White people who had a future could look at advantage now is saying, oh, my God, I can't find a job.

I mean, that was best symbolized by what happened in Chicago when they were looking for jobs at the hotel there. You saw master's degree people, college degree people couldn't find jobs. Now, this has been a problem in the African-American community for centuries. But now, all of a sudden, White Americans are taking it.

Now, the thing about it, now if white America gets angry because they can't get something, then nothing is said about it, but if African-Americans or people of color express anger or dissatisfaction, then they're ungrateful. They shouldn't be here. They haven't tried hard enough. I think it's a double standard out there. Until we face the reality, we're not going to be able to solve the problem.

SPEAKER: I'm told the Minneapolis school board will apparently embark on a major study of desegregation and in the topic of neighborhood schools. Now, what do you think that that school board should be looking at in the study?

GLEASON GLOVER: Well, I think the reality of it is that if you go back to neighborhood schools, because the segregation pattern is still there, you're going to end up with White and Black situations. There's no question about that. The issue in education, to me, is not so much the school you live at, or the district you're in, but the attitudes of teachers and the attitudes of the system to want to educate African-American and children of color.

I mean, the state of Minnesota did an in-depth study called the Black Learners Report, which looked at the barriers that prevented Black students from learning in the school systems around the state. They came up with some rather interesting findings. One finding was that many White teachers had had stereotypical attitudes about their Black students. They didn't think they could learn, so therefore they didn't challenge them.

African-American parents were not involved to the extent they should be. They were not Blacks in decision-making and policy levels within the educational institutions or within the structure of our system. So the issue is much more than just desegregation. Most African-Americans I know aren't too caught up in whether they live next to a White person or not. What they want to do is have their child get the best education he or she can get, and most are tired of being the sacrificial lambs of the White power structure.

SPEAKER: Finally, and not last, but certainly not least either. What's your warmest memory of your life of work in the Civil Rights movement?

GLEASON GLOVER: Well, I think the state of Minneapolis-- I mean, the city of Minneapolis, in my experience here, has been the most rewarding experience I've had, because it has allowed me to realize a vision or a dream that I've had. Although this dream or vision has never been fully realized, it has given me a chance to at least achieve part of it.

I've always loved people, and I've always believed that people could work together. I've always believed that Minneapolis, of all the cities in this country, could be the model for making America work. We have the resources. The problems are not so large or magnificent. I'm using the wrong word, but they are not large problems.

But what happens is that I haven't seen the development of our human resources on a par with the development I've seen in our downtown skyline. When I came 25 years ago, we had the Foshay Tower and that was it. I mean, now you come into Minneapolis, it's a beautiful city. You see all the beautiful edifices downtown. But beneath that, the shadow of downtown, you have the homelessness, the underprivileged, the unemployed, the poor, the disadvantaged people.

And although a lot has been given to correct that, the enthusiasm and the energy that I see going towards having the Super Bowl come to Minnesota or the Final Four in the NCAA, you don't see that kind of mobilization and kind of energy. And I ask myself, what would have happened had we done that?

And so part of my 25 years here has been to prod our system into adjusting to that. And I think part of it. I've been very successful in doing. Although the dream has not been realized, I do think that the state of Minnesota and the city of Minneapolis has given me a good opportunity to pursue that opportunity. And to me, that's what I consider the most enjoyable part of my life here.

SPEAKER: Gleason Glover, thank you very much for coming by. Thank you for your years of work as president of the Urban League of Minneapolis.

GLEASON GLOVER: Thank you for inviting me on.