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PAULA SCHROEDER: We asked Minneapolis Police Chief John Locks to join us as well, but he declined. Locks says he will make a statement on the issue at the rally today. Welcome to both of you. Thanks for coming in this morning.

ANN DEGROOT: Thank you.

ROBERT JACOBSON: Thank you, Paula.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Let's begin by explaining what you want the Minneapolis Police Department to do. Robert, perhaps you can comment on-- are you also looking to this issue of having police decoys in gay areas?

ROBERT JACOBSON: That's one of the requests that we're making. We have several requests that we're asking of the police in order to work better with the gay and lesbian community and to improve the climate. Several of those requests are, we would love for the Minneapolis Police Department to begin a police decoy program similar to what they have in Houston. We think that that would be an excellent way both to apprehend gay bashers and also to foster some trust between our communities.

We're also asking that the Minneapolis Police force start hiring openly lesbian, gay and bisexual officers within six months. Currently, chief Locks says that there are several people who are gay within the police force, but none of them are open with their sexuality. So there is nobody who we can look to, to serve as a liaison between our community.

We are also asking that the Minneapolis Police Department start a full-time bias crimes investigative unit that would operate to solve crimes based on religious hatred, on racism or on homophobia. We feel that all of these crimes are interconnected and that it will take a full-time investigative unit to solve all of these properly.

And finally, we're asking for the police to become more educated about our community. When they first found out about the murders, they didn't even know who to call in our community to talk about it. And so there needs to be some more education about what resources we have. Because we'd like to help and we'd like to be able to assist them in any way that we can.

PAULA SCHROEDER: The murders that we're talking about, of course, are those of Joel Larson and John Chenoweth. Both occurred within the past month, the past couple of weeks, actually. And have these kinds of requests gone out to the police department before or is it just in reaction to these murders?

ANN DEGROOT: There have been requests of the police department for many years. There was a request a number of years ago that there be a liaison established. And there have been requests for education and training for a long time.

I would agree with everything that Robert said about what is needed. I think in addition, we need an established liaison to the police department or the city from the gay and lesbian community so that we have that relationship. Our main concern is that there are hate crimes happening all the time.

Murder is one thing, but we have heard in the first six months of this year of 130 reported cases of hate crimes. And they go the gamut from verbal harassment to murder, including physical threats and physical threats with weapons. So we want to make sure there's an ongoing relationship, and that there are some ongoing solutions, and that we don't get all worked up because of a murder only, and that we make sure that there's some protection along the line for a long time to come.

PAULA SCHROEDER: I think we'd like to reiterate that we wish we had someone from the police department here to speak to these issues, but perhaps you can, in as unbiased a way as possible, tell you what the reaction has been to these requests from the police department.

ANN DEGROOT: My sense of it-- and Robert can say, too, what he thinks, but my sense is that the police are open to talking about something else, some kind of a relationship. For the first time ever, the police have recognized the Gay and Lesbian Community Action Council as an organization that they will work with. They put us in press releases as a place for people to call if they need assistance or they're a witness and they want help going to the police. And I think that's a big step and I'm very appreciative of that.

So my reading is, and I'm going to go on this assumption that they're open to doing something else. I also think we have a very, very supportive mayor in Minneapolis of exactly what Robert has laid out here. So we'll be working with the mayor's office as well to ensure some of this.

ROBERT JACOBSON: Yes, city officials have been very cooperative in helping us to organize this rally. And we're hoping that this cooperation continues after today. Mayor Fraser will be answering some questions during the rally, and it will be a good opportunity for him to put forth some more good faith efforts.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Let me ask you about a comment that one of the police officers in the piece that we just heard said, that he was one of the decoys. And he never believed that there was any fear in the gay and lesbian community. And it seems to me that most of these crimes seem to be targeted against men. But is this also a factor in the lesbian community?

ANN DEGROOT: There is a hate crimes against women, which, by the way, there's no state law protecting women in general from hate crimes. But many times, when those incidents happen, the woman is called dyke, or lesbian, or queer or ball-buster or whatever. And there are certainly some lesbian tinge to it. And there are lesbians who are assaulted because they are lesbians. So there are hate crimes related to sexual orientation for women.

What you're hearing about now mostly are related to men, in part because it's easier to identify that, I think, in a way. And so it's easier to talk about men and to pinpoint that that's what's going on. As women, we've been called those names for years so we don't always separate those things out. But I do know that rape centers and shelters for domestic violence are seeing women who have been assaulted, who have been abused because they're women or because they're lesbians.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Robert, can you talk to us about this fear issue? Is that prevalent in the gay community in the Twin Cities as well?

ROBERT JACOBSON: I think there are two types of fear that stem from the hate crimes. There's both the original fear that happens whenever a person walks out onto the street. They have to look both ways and make sure there's nobody around there with a baseball bat. Most people I know nowadays carry a police whistle wherever they go.

Recently, there was a meeting in Loring Park to discuss ways that our community could respond to this, and there were about 50 people there. And a question was asked, how many people here had been the victims of hate crimes? And about two thirds of those people raised their hands.

But the other type of fear comes from dealing with police. Unfortunately, there's a good deal of mistrust between the police and the gay community. And that's reflected in terms of statistics where the GLCAC, the Gay Lesbian Community Action Council, has a good number of reported cases of hate crimes. Police have virtually nil. And that shows that people simply are afraid to call the police when they are the victims of a hate crime because they're afraid that they'll be victimized twice.

PAULA SCHROEDER: There are some people in this community and elsewhere around the country who would say, well, if you are so fearful of walking out in the street, then why do you insist on being openly gay?

ROBERT JACOBSON: The reason is we have the right to be openly gay. Being openly gay is not a privilege that's bestowed on us by a nice, paternalistic society. We have the right to be who we want to be, and anybody else does too. We have the right to go out in the street holding hands, or kissing in public or just going grocery shopping, if that's what we want to do. And we have the right not to be beaten up or killed because of it.

ANN DEGROOT: Hear, hear.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Any legislation that you see upcoming or are you just going to be dealing specifically with local communities, with cities, trying to get the gay rights ordinances passed? For instance, in Saint Cloud, I know it failed this past year.

ANN DEGROOT: We need to have-- actually we need to have a federal protection for gays and lesbians, but we also will be working on the state level. My organization will to do several things. One is to establish a human rights law that protects gays and lesbians. That's inclusive actually, of sexual identity, which is a little bit broader range.

We hear from people, by the way, who are perceived to be gay or lesbian, who might not be, who are also victims of discrimination and assault. In addition, we're going to be pursuing the repeal of the sodomy statute. And we will be working in the future toward establishing rights for gay and lesbian families and so on and so forth. Because we have a very different set by which we operate. So those legislative changes are absolutely critical in terms of maintaining an environment in which people feel safe, and comfortable and are respected.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Do you hear from people in the gay and lesbian community from outside of the metropolitan area? And if so, what is the reaction to them in rural Minnesota?

ANN DEGROOT: Well, as you know, there were two other murders in Minnesota this year. There was one in Fargo-Moorhead and there was one in Duluth Superior. And people in those areas are very angry at the response from their police departments and also from the state in terms of the murders that they've seen.

People around the state want statewide protection. Very often, communities around the state who are small and rural have small gay and lesbian communities who feel like they can't speak out. So what they say to us is, please pursue a statewide thing. Please don't go city by city because that will never happen for us.

So we take that very seriously. And I think that they're right. We're also working to encourage an atmosphere of understanding through education, and training, and bringing people together and working not just with gays and lesbians, but also with our allies and all of those communities because there are plenty of them out there.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Robert, you mentioned the use of police whistles. Are you involved in instructing gay and lesbian people in safety measures? Is that one of the things that you're working towards?

ROBERT JACOBSON: Yes, there's a group called Bashers Get Caught headed by Dallas Drake. And they're currently handing out safety cards, telling about what gay men can do-- gay men, as well as lesbians can do to protect themselves and to stress the importance of reporting these hate crimes both to the GLCAC at 822-8661 or to the police department so that these do get reported. Also, they're selling police whistles. And I urge everybody to buy a whistle to protect themselves.

PAULA SCHROEDER: And tell us briefly about the rally this afternoon too--

ROBERT JACOBSON: Sure.

PAULA SCHROEDER: When and where.

ROBERT JACOBSON: We'll be gathering at the Hennepin County Government Center at 4:30. And we'll be starting out with some chants there, and then we'll be marching down Third Avenue to City Hall. At 5:00, we'll be hearing from different speakers, including Mayor Fraser, Patty Abbott, who works for the Gay Lesbian Community Action Council, the Reverend Dan Geslin from Spirit of the Lakes, a church for the gay and lesbian community, and from Sharon Sayles Belton, who was the city council president.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Thank you very much for joining us today.

ANN DEGROOT: Thank you.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Robert Jacobson help organize the rally this afternoon that will be held in downtown Minneapolis. And Ann DeGroot is executive director of the Gay and Lesbian Community Action Council.