for American individuals and institutions Mr. Tom, Kalinowski executive director of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency joins us for the hour today answer your questions about environmental concerns in the state of Minnesota Tom. Welcome. It's a pleasure to have you on the program. Thanks. Bob. Tom has been executive director of the PCA since 1984 prior to that. He chaired the Minnesota Environmental Quality board for a year. And before that. He was chairman of the Minnesota water planning board. So he has a good deal of experience over the past decade or so decade and a half in the area of the environment and environmental controls Tom. There's a news item out today that I think might be worth chatting about briefly to begin with. It is a new survey by the Environmental Protection Agency. They checked a ten state area and found more radioactive radon gas than is recommended. Now, Minnesota was not one of those States but in this survey the highest percentage of Holmes exceeding the level is found in Colorado at 39 percent and the other states with their percentages above the guideline, Connecticut 19, Kansas 21, Kentucky 17, Michigan 9, Rhode Island 19, Tennessee 16, Wisconsin 27 and Wyoming 26 how serious a problem is radon gas in Minnesota. We don't know exactly but there's no question that radon gas is a very serious environmental problem. In fact, I think Lee Thomas a director of the Environmental Protection Agency has listed it among the top three environmental issues that his agency is going to have to deal with given the fact that there are high radon levels in Michigan and Wisconsin. We clearly would have reason to believe that that Minnesota would have high radon levels. It's a it's a naturally occurring function which is based which results from the type of geology. It comes right from the from the ground. Certainly iron deposits and and the geology up in northeastern Minnesota would be conducive to the creation of radon as would number of other parts of Minnesota. So what is the health threat from radon the health threat is that is that when inhaled radon gas is a very high carcinogen. In fact, it poses a very direct threat of lung cancer in particular. That's where the where the small radon radon particles reside and in some tests. I know Audi's the the threat of lung cancer was extremely high in one house in particular. I think they found that the resident had a one in ten chance of of Contracting lung cancer based on the amount of radon it it actually seeps from the ground into cracks in the foundation and other other crevices. And in the home and becomes part of the indoor air of the home, what are we doing in Minnesota about this? Well first I should I should indicate that it is not the pollution control agency, but rather the Minnesota Health Department that deals with indoor air and indoor air pollution issues, so it isn't my agency but but the health department is very aware of the problem. They are doing their own surveys similar. I suspect to the kind that the Environmental Protection Agency are are doing with the first step being to define the extent of the problem and there are through the health department. There's information available as to where a person could get their their home tested if they if they are concerned that they might have a high radon level. And as I say, the the first thing to do is figure out how serious the problem is and then in terms of what actually can be done with the home primarily it involves sealing up the pathways that that the radon would travel. It's very difficult. As I say it's a natural occurring phenomena. And it's there's no question. It's going to be difficult No Big Industry polluter to point the finger at in that case not this is right from the earth. Well, we have Tom Kalinowski with us today and he can address any of your concerns be they are or water pollution or hazardous waste disposal even even problems with household waste you can call us in the Twin Cities area with a question at to 276 thousand 2276 thousand in other parts of Minnesota. Our toll-free number is 1-866-560-4440. Another are type of problem. I think your agency may be directly involved in is the issue of carbon monoxide at some intersections in the metropolitan area. I think there was a study report came out was it last week showing that used to be University and Snelling was the problem wasn't it? And now you've identified some additional ones? University and snowing has always been pointed to as a problem because that's primarily where we've looked for the for the carbon monoxide. We've had an excellent monitoring system there we knew it was a heavy traveled intersection and we have found violations of the carbon monoxide standard. I think we've suspected all along that if we looked at other busy intersections be they along University Avenue and st. Paul or some of the busy intersections in Minneapolis where there's an awful lot of traffic and stop and go traffic that we probably would find the same kind of problem and that's what the test results that the Metropolitan Council released last week indicated. Is that there there is a problem. So what do we do about that? Well, that's the challenge the PCA has the Environmental Protection Agency has required that by the end of the year. We come up with a plan as to how we're going to address the carbon monoxide problem. One of the things you always look at is how can you change the roadway pattern the the traffic patterns so that you don't have the number of vehicles stopping and creating the problem. I think we've done a number of those things along University Avenue. We've tried to do it in Snelling and University and I'm not sure that that alone has been enough in other states. They have gone to mend ettore vehicle emission testing. Is that a likely development here don't know if I go so far as to say it's likely but there's no question that it's going to be seriously considered that that we'd look at an inspection and maintenance program in the Twin City area to determine that in fact the the pollution control equipment on on all the cars are are functioning properly. Early course at the extreme and in metropolitan areas like Los Angeles and other cities there are some very radical things which which the government cities are looking at including an outright ban on traffic in certain in certain city areas and you know forcing forcing different Transportation patterns, which which really wreak havoc with people's everyday life but at but at some point the problem can get that extreme, we don't we don't have that kind of problem here. We don't have an ozone problem which most of the Metropolitan major metropolitan areas in the in the United States have and it's basically the ozone and the carbon monoxide together that have forced the more drastic measures, but but clearly it's vehicle inspection maintenance is something we're going to look at lots of folks on the line with questions for Tom Kelly Kapowski today. So let's get some of them on the air your first go ahead, please. Yeah. I had a question about the radon gas thing you were talking about earlier. Isn't the radon gas Associated specifically with granitic geologic formations. And so wouldn't that is it that is that true? Is that only then associate with a certain part of the state of Minnesota the areas that have granted because I know Minnesota has very complex geology. There's different like here. It's all sedimentary rock in the Twin Cities. Yeah, and I'm by no means a technical expert but I but you're correct in saying that it that where it has been found is primarily a function of the of the Deep Rock the granite and that would include of course a lot of a lot of areas of the state of Minnesota, but you're right not specifically the Twin City area. All right. Let's move on to your concern next, please. Hello. You're on the air. Thank you. Yes, I would like to ask a question about environmental organizations. For example, how would you estimate the relative quantity of well lobbying or pressuring you get from them these days compared to in the past? And it's also how would you estimate the relative? Influence of the environmental pressuring or lobbying as a compared to corporations and businesses. I'm a I'm a member of several very many organizations. I was just wondering how it looks to you from the PCA. Okay. I don't have a long history to compare it to in terms of the past. But there's no question that that Minnesota has a number of very active environmental groups and my experience over the legislature is that is that the people who make policy decisions listen to these groups? I think that we're a long ways away from the 1960s where environmental groups and environmental concerns were seen as as kind of a fringe concern that that that what there wasn't all that important. I think I think that government Minnesota has come to recognize that a that a clean environment is absolutely critical not just to the our state's pristine Beauty but to two basic everyday life we have to Have clean water to drink we have to have clean air to breathe. Our economy needs a clean environment. So I think that that a lot of the basic environmental concerns are really embedded in the laws and policy of the state to the extent that environmental groups don't have to come out and do battle on every issue. I think that that we have a strong Pollution Control agency, which is recognized as a strong enforcement agency on the other hand. There always are our issues of conflict whether it be business climate or or jobs issues where where their environmental concerns and and I've in my opinion the environmental groups that are active at the legislature and active over the pollution control agency have been been very effective in our listen too. Well in the 1970s there was a tremendous amount of environmental legislation passed a lot of the opposed by industry at least as things went along. Under with with the increased concern about the state of the economy and with the emphasis on competitiveness and job creation and so on if the pendulum might be swinging back a little bit. Do you feel that maybe the environmental movement and the environmental the PCA has to take some of those things into account little bit more, you know about I think there's that perception out there, but it but if you actually look at what's going on, for example, let's take the last legislative session it it while it didn't get a lot of publicity. I think it was a it was a historic session in terms of Environmental Protection. The legislature finally went out and established a program to deal with non point source pollution and they put money into it the legislature appropriated 10 million dollars for the state Superfund program the legislature appropriated 38 million dollars for the pcas program to build sewage treatment plants to help municipalities the legislature for the first time recognized the need to Have an air toxics program in the pollution control agency and and funded that effort. So I mean, I think that that while job and and business concerns seem to be getting a lot of the publicity. I personally don't believe it has been at the expense of the environment. I just I just think that a lot of the things that that were fought for in the in the 60s and 70s are now simply a part of government that businesses in Minnesota accept and that and that the legislators recognized as having to to be there lots of folks with questions for Tom Kelly Kapowski executive director of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency and Iran with him now, go ahead please. Well. I had a question about removal of household waste. I removed a small amount of asbestos from my basement very carefully and then had a big grey yellow trash bag of asbestos to get rid of and in calling the state. I found out a couple of things one is that homeowners are not restricted by law. From just leaving it at their curbside to have their trash man pick it up and take it wherever he takes the rest of the trash. Although I was asked to dispose of it properly and in doing that I found it very difficult to do there is no Central information place where one can find information about an economical way to dispose of a small amount of toxic household waste. Well, okay time you get done you hit on an excellent question and there's no question that there is a serious problem and it's one that we've been aware of for the last few years at least and what we found it just kind of interesting interesting background. We did some monitoring around landfills generally out outside the Twin City area and landfills in which we were fairly certain that there were no industrial polluters. There were no companies that were using the landfill or big businesses that generate chemicals and surprisingly enough we found in the groundwater a lot of the same solvents and a lot of the same hazardous chemicals that we found in places where there was industrial dumping and what had led us to an to to conclude is that clearly the kinds of ways that every one of us have in our garages and houses the kinds of household products end up in the garbage can end up in the landfill and ultimately end up in the Groundwater, there's no question. But that number one the regulatory scheme isn't there there isn't the same fines and enforcement by the PCA. If someone puts a puts a can of Varnish in their in their garbage can and it would be impossible to enforce but more significantly and I think the caller hit the nail on the head there really is nothing that individual soldiers can do without without great expense clearly. They're not going to ship ship their can of hazardous waste to Chicago as some businesses have to do or to some other state. So what we've done at the PCA as we began first with a pilot program to have hazardous waste pickups in in 20, some communities across the state to determine first of all what's out there and what's sort of of collection techniques seem to be the most effective in this last legislative session and I guess this is another accomplishment of of the legislation of the recognition of a problem. They funded on an ongoing basis a program now at the PCA to have permanent. Household hazardous waste collection sites and I think we'll have about my recollection is 26 of them across the state. There will be some that will have one time pickups. There will be some locations where it will be ongoing where people can actually bring their waste in and keep it out of the landfill and out of the ground water. All right, and as far as the specifics on asbestos again, that's the health department rather than rather than the pollution control agency. We regulate landfills and it's clear that you can't just put asbestos in landfills. I'm not sure other than other than being collected and taken some place where it can be disposed of in a hazardous waste facility that there's any easy answer for for home owner or I should point out. However that there is a an information line at the at the pollution control agency. Where where by calling the number PCA staff will try to advise you and give you a technical advice on what to do with with any particular waste you want to give that number. Yeah that the number and the Twin Cities is 2967352. And well, I think that that probably is a is as good a number. I've also got Bob some a toll free number which is which is probably easier for All State and it deals not just with household hazardous waste but with all kinds of pollution issues and why don't I give you that the toll-free number on and that's one eight hundred six, five two nine seven four seven eight hundred six, five two nine seven four seven for outside the Twin Cities with any kind of pollution question, right toll-free. It's a toll-free hotline or line to the PC and in the Twin Cities. The hotline number is 296733 52. That's the specific household. Hazardous waste number hazardous waste. All right. Well, let's not give out to me. Or phone number showed us we get everybody totally confused. But those are a couple of good numbers to jot down if you're concerned about those specific things and you're on the air now with Tom Kalinowski. Go ahead, please. Hello. I work on Building Maintenance and and I have to replace old fluorescent light light ballast occasionally that are leaking black sticky substance and I have been told that some of those contain pcbs. Do you have any information on this or any advice on how to approach this problem? I guess I'm not specifically aware that that the fluorescent lights would have pcbs. In fact, I don't I don't believe that's the case that that clearly is a pcbs clearly are a problem in some electrical equipment primarily the larger Transformers and things on the other hand. I don't I don't purport to to be an expert and again, I guess I would recommend that you call in directly to a hazardous waste hotline Bob if you'll forgive me. I have one more number to give out. All right, and and we can deal with all hazardous waste issues on this hotline number and so any callers that have specific questions like this might want to call the number and and that is 2967436743643. Anything dealing with hazardous, right? Okay. All right. Let's take your question next go ahead. You're on the air now. Could you please give an address where more information can be obtained about the radon gas problem? Thank you. It's the Minnesota Department of Health. And and I'm sorry I don't have the specific address in front of me. I'd if I get a phone directory or if you can look at your phone directory, it's the Minnesota Department of Health located over on the University campus. Okay? All right, Tom Kalinowski executive director of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency is in the Studio's today as we talk about environmental concerns. And you have a question for Tom. Go ahead please. Hello Tom. I called your agency a few weeks ago about getting rid of my old auto batteries and he told me that a new laws going into effect soon and I see in the paper today where it's January 1st or something like that, but the problem is I'm not sure that old batteries that I haven't purchased that I purchased before that date are going to be covered. And what should I do? Should I put them in the woods behind my house and forget about them or should I? To find another place that will take them. What am I going to do with these old things? Please don't put them in the woods. There is a new law and my understanding of the law is that it's very similar to the law that was passed on on oil which basically says that if you sell new oil you have to take old oil and and with the same will apply to batteries that the dealers that are in the business of selling batteries. Either have to accept old batteries or have to direct you to some place that will now I am not aware that it's only purchasers of new batteries that that can Avail themselves of that again, I guess I'd have to ask that you call the the PCA to see if there are collection points and and if there's not you may just have to wait until the new law takes effect. And the Dealer's then will be required to tell you where to where you can take your battery, but it would not be best apparently to let the trashman take the old batteries. No. Clearly another another problem that we've had in landfills the lead and other pollutants that are there in the battery have can clearly create problems for groundwater. Okay, two two seven six thousand is the telephone number if you have a question about environmental matters for Tom Kalinowski today, and we had the lines absolutely jammed a few minutes ago if you tried to get through and were unsuccessful, you might try again at 2276 thousand for Twin Cities area callers in other parts of Minnesota the toll-free number 1-800-695-1418 your next an area. That's not exactly rural but we're well beyond Municipal Water and Sewer. I wonder if you could give some guidelines for maintaining a healthy septic system and about water testing. How often do you need to be concerned about testing and what kind of expense gets involved when you test Beyond just for bacterial contamination? Okay, there's no question that let me let me talk first about the water your well water and and I you know part of the part of the advice I give you would depend very much on on the specific facts of your case. How old is your well, how deep is it? And and have you experienced any problems. Do you have reason to believe that in the area there? There is a problem with with pollutants other than the standard nitrates and coliform and and basically all of the County Health Department's will provide water testing for domestic Wells for a fairly nominal fee. I think it's about 15 about $15 where they'll test for nitrates and and and cola forms. And and these are of course are the basic the basic kinds of problems that are found if if you're either getting some kind of septic leach into your well or if because of agricultural practices going on you're getting fertilizers or other things. It gets very expensive to test for specific hazardous waste. So unless you have some reason to believe that that you've got the potential for that kind of problem. I don't think anyone is recommending that that you just go out and do those kinds of tests. But again, your the county is basically responsible for for the water supplies. And and the county health department is the one that can can answer your questions about testing with regard to to your septic system. Again, it's it's a factor of whether whether your system is old you there clearly are maintenance things, you know, you should have it pumped out every year you if you've got any evidence that it's backing up or that it isn't functioning. You should have someone out to look at it. Other than that we found that properly installed septic systems do work and and and they do Job in areas where where Municipal Services aren't available. Okay, Tom Kalinowski is with us today and we'll take your question for him now. Hello there. Hi Tom. I heard about the pigs. I waste water treatment plant over on Good Morning America. They said that the whole the ash out of state and they recover gold in the gold is sent back to Minnesota. I told that to another engineer and he said that that's actually not true that it's dumped on an Indian reservation in South Dakota. I was wondering if you know anything about it and whether the state of Minnesota would be liable for any waste dumped out of state on an Indian Reservation. No, I don't know very much about the specifics. I know that the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission, which is the operator of of the pigs. I plant has entered into a contract to to dispose of their sludge. I don't know anything more about the specifics. I certainly don't know that they're that it's going to an Indian Reservation out of state with regard to liability again, I can't speak specifically this instance, but let me just say in general that the we at the PCA are very concerned about what where Minnesota waste goes. And what happens to it after it leaves a state on a number of our hazardous waste cleanup. So under the Superfund, for example, it really is the state of Minnesota that becomes responsible for the waste that we that we dig up and and because we don't have disposal facilities here in Minnesota and many cases that waste has to go out of state. It we are very careful about what kind of out of state facilities we ship the waste to we have our staff on the site viewing it because of our concern that if sometime down the road those facilities have pollution problems clearly the potential of them coming back to all of the people that use the facility and attempting to hold them liable as is a very real potential. So it's easy to think that that you can go out of state with something and it's out of sight and out of mind and we don't have to worry about it anymore. But clearly that's not our attitude. We are concerned about the environment of other states and we're concerned about legal liability. So we take all the precautions we can gold gold in that sewage material. Is that a possibility? Oh, I think there's just about anything anything you could look for in sewage material by there's no question that there's that there's metals and and I have heard of gold being extracted. I suspect it's not the mother lode that someone might want to find there. The but clearly there are there are heavy metals and and some of them may be a value if you can actually extract them from the sludge. All right, you're on the air now with Tom Kelly Kapowski. Go ahead, please. Yeah for a good many years John Key course the head of the PCA and the Duluth area has been outstandingly efficient and conscientious and controlling pollution. We've heard from time to time that influential polluters were trying to have him removed from that job. And of course now he has been transferred out of it was he too active against the wrong people. John you're absolutely right. John has been a valuable resource for the PCA for many years up in Duluth and John continues to be that and and absolutely not there has been no fact, there's been no lobbying or any attempt at all to remove John from the Duluth position Tom Kalinowski executive director of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency is with us in the Studio's today. We have a lot of people with questions moving right along go ahead, please you're next good afternoon gentlemen, gasoline's now contain all things like toluene and Benzene xylene that are proven carcinogens cats cancer-causing components. I'm wondering just why the PCA hasn't taken a public stand and endorsing products such as ethanol. That's not harmful to the environment. I'll hang up and listen to your answer. To the contrary the PCA has taken a very strong public stand fact, we testified at the at the legislative hearings in support of in support of ethanol legislation last year. Not not just because of the Hazardous components of gasoline, but because of from a pollution standpoint and auto emissions standpoint ethanol Burns cleaner, so so we have we have supported that. All right and you're on the air now with Tom Kelly Kapowski. Go ahead, please good afternoon. I have a question in regards to the st. Paul Munitions plant in Arden Hills. I just recently read in the local newspaper that it's going to take up to two years before they get to recovering and digging Wells because of the solvent and heavy metal contamination. My question is why such a delay if in fact there is that much dangerous material in the groundwater. I'll hang up and listen to your answer. Thank you. Well, there's no there's no question that in the past there has been considerable delay in foot dragging on the part of the army and there's been a lot of problem with jurisdictional questions. However, what you're referring to is the announcement last week that we have gotten a signed consent order an agreement with the army that they will do the cleanup. What we're talking about is is contamination over about a 25 square mile area and there's no question that cleaning up that that contamination and doing it right is going to be a very complicated thing. So when we look at at this two-year time period we're talking about a an extended period of time that really is going to be involved in taking samples and doing the kinds of studies that are that are necessary to find out where the contaminants are where it's going and then to look at what the options are to actually clean things up. So the the two-year cleanup period is not at all. Foot dragging or not at all a delay. In fact, it's very typical of how long it would take to clean up a complicated site and it's unfortunate. It's taken us this long to finally get the Army to recognize that they are responsible for the pollution. But now that we're at this point, I think we're on a as reasonable and is fast attract is as we could hope for to finally get things cleaned up Tom. There is a person who listens to this broadcast regularly every day from a construction site and is unable to get to a telephone and he called the station with a with a question that I will put to you here. Are there any colleges are technical institutes that teach classes on waste management and where can somebody go for training in this field? That's a good question. And it's one that's never been posed to me and frankly. I don't know obviously a lot of our staff at at the PCA come out of have engineering or science backgrounds, which may touch on various aspects. I'm not sure if there is actually a course of study in Waste Management if there's not they're clearly could be and and I guess in my opinion should be I can't think of of sim a single subject that is of Greater concern to the environment than waste and what we do with it, whether we're talking about our daily garbage hazardous waste radioactive waste clearly the environmental problems of the of the future are going to to a large extent revolve around how we deal with our waste. All right moving on to more folks with questions for Tom Kelly Kapowski from the telephone. Hello. You're next. Yes. I moved here a year ago from Claire Wisconsin and moved to the city of fredley. I've never been sick a day in my life. And then lately in the last probably six months. I've had problems with infections in my urinary tract. Well in Fridley our Waters terrible, I live right by FMC sometimes 346 times a month. Our water turns black now is a city of Fridley responsible for testing our water or is it up to the state? I assume you are talking about City water from Fridley and if that's the case clearly the city is responsible there. They are regulated by the Minnesota Health Department as a municipal supply of water. The health department has rules and regulations that require periodic testing. They clearly require action where where problems are detected and under the regulation of the health department the city ought to be ought to be making sure that what's coming out of your TAP is something that you should be able to Ink moving on to your question then go ahead please Tom is listening. There are no trees planted and I think trees are very very important ecologically because they neutralize another monoxide on any three and we have them in our in our residential areas. But I think they're needed more and more on those areas to neutralize the carbon monoxide and other over to enhance the ugliness of University Avenue with Rel that area is really extremely ugly think that that would be one suggestion. I would like to make now if you have a specific question, ma'am, can you then? Yes, the other question that I asked her is Minneapolis and with regard to the trees, I would like to comment about that. Okay. All right, Tom do Take the tree issue first sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure. I'm not sure to what extent the city has explored that clearly they're aware of the of the pollution problems and you're right both from aesthetic and environmental basis tree serve a useful Purpose with regard to your odor complaint odor is a pollutant and an area that the pollution control agency is involved in we basically deal with the issue on a complaint basis and to the extent that you convey your complaint to the PCA will send staff out there to try to determine the source of the odor determine how the the company or the the polluter can change the way they do things to try to reduce the odor. All right. We have another questioner for Tom Kelly Kapowski. You're on with him now. Hello. Hi Tom. I recently noticed in the paper a noticed for public hearing that was proposing a number of changes. Isn't PCA regulations? One of these was a relaxation of effluent quality standards for certain Municipal wastewater treatment plants. My question is why is the state proposing to relax the standards when most other states are actually making them more stringent? Thank you. I'm not sure what specific rule or specific standard that you're referring to. We are involved right now in a major overhaul of our of our water quality standards in no way do I think what we're doing can be could be characterized as a relaxing of the standards and again without knowledge of the specific provision you're talking about. I can't answer you. But but certainly I'd be happy to have our staff talk to you about about your specific concerns because Minnesota has had among the most stringent water quality standards in the country and and it's certainly not our intent to back off of that in some cases. We're just getting rid of some some old language in some cases were better reflecting the regulatory practices, but clearly it's not our intent to back off of our protection of the state's Waters and we'll take your question next. Hello there. Good afternoon. I heard you say that. There has been no attempt to move John P. Gore's the former head of the Duluth regional office of PCA out of his position. I think that's a little misleading because mr. Count house key knows did mr. P course has been demoted from his position by his supervisors at Pollution Control agency though. He is still in the same office and given his long and distinguished record of accomplishments and Ad Agency. I believe he's worked there for at least 15 years. I think the public deserves a better explanation of why I'm John teager's was demoted and and it seems to me like it was because this critical the way PCS been caving into industry. I don't know how much you want to get into internal management questions of the PCA. I'm happy to to attempt to answer the caller's question. If you want to go a little bit further you before that's fine. But I think we spent a lot of time on a personal that me let me just say emphatically again that there have been no outside pressures at all to make any changes in mr. Fieger's position or in or in the management of the agency that any decisions that were made were done from Strictly a management standpoint and a determination as to how to best utilize the skills of mr. Fieger's and and we intend fully to continue to utilize his skills in the Duluth area. All right, let's move on to some more folks with questions about environmental matters Tom Kalinowski executive director of the PCA is with a senior on with him now. Hello. No, I've got two questions one is I'm wondering how homeowner can go about having their home test their home for Radon in the cost. And I'm also wondering if there's any danger of contaminants and living close to the freeways. in the soil for gardening with regard to the to the radon ma'am. I'm sorry. I'll have to refer you to the Minnesota Health Department. And I'm sure they can give you the answer on on testing what it would cost. I know there are a number of companies in the Twin City area that do provide provide testing. And I think you should talk to the health department first to get their advice on whether you're a likely candidate and whether it's worth the expenditure of money to to look into the raid on with regard to gardening near the freeways. I'm not sure I'm not sure I can give you a very definite answer. Obviously. We know that automobiles pollute. We know that we've found increased soil lead levels for example near heavily traveled roads that clearly are a function of leaded gasoline. There are other pollutants. I'm not aware that that there are specific pollution problems from from roadways that would affect the the The quality of your of your produce or the safety and from a health standpoint of eating what you grow. There are through the University of Minnesota testing available where they where they can do take you can take a soil sample and they can do an analysis of it. And in offer tests. I'm afraid that's the best I can offer. Do you see the day coming when the leaded gasoline be gone forever? Clearly that's been our strong urging to the Environmental Protection Agency and and there has been a move in that direction a little slower than we'd like to see but yeah, I do. I do think that that day will be coming we have about 20 minutes left with Tom Kelly Kapowski. So let's move the head to your question, please hello concerns to the carcinogenic levels of radon gas coming from naturally occurring very widespread sources. What kind of specific action is practically possible to prevent exposure? Well, I again it probably gets more complicated than we can get into at this time. But but what it what it basically involves is trying to figure out how the radon is getting into into a home and that's the primary concern of course is that it actually get in the indoor air where where there's not as much room for it to disperse than it actually is breathed by the inhabitants. And and so I think the first step is to figure out how it's getting into the home and and to try to seal off those Pathways. That's that's the the quick and dirty answer and obviously in a specific case with with older homes. For example, an older foundations it can it can get pretty complicated. Let me raise another issue that hasn't come up yet. We might get some further questions on it if we talked about it briefly a garbage burning seems to be the big thing now in the in the area and some people think well, there's there's nothing been proven wrong about it. So go ahead and do it and others say Well, since we don't know what's wrong about it, we should do it. Do we do? What's wrong with it? What do you feel about that? Well there probably is no more difficult issue that the PCA is grappling with right now and I've found an attending National meetings that were not alone. I think just about every state is faced with the same kinds of concerns you start off with the basic problem that our past practice of burying landfill is been proven to be burying bearing garbage in landfills has been proven to be bad and has been proven to contaminate the groundwater. So there's no question but that we have to get away from from burying garbage the question then becomes what what sort of alternatives are there to landfilling at one of the Alternatives that has surfaced over the past several years is incineration either Mass burning of the garbage or turning it into some kind of pellet or product that can be burned. We have a number of facilities in the state of Minnesota that have permits from the pollution control agency to burn solid waste. There's no question that there are concerns raised about the emissions from garbage burning facilities and their concerns that were were very much aware of what we've attempted to do at the PCA in terms of our policy is to recognize that some amount of incineration of garbage is is probably a reasonable component of an overall solid waste management system. That is it should involve Recycling and reuse and composting and and perhaps some incineration what we have required in the facilities that that want that proposed to burn garbage is what we call the best available control technology. That is the best and newest and most up-to-date pollution control equipment to reduce to the greatest extent possible any kind of Airborne pollutants. We have issued some permits under these conditions. There is always An area of unknown within within any new technology and so I'm not going to sit here today and tell you that it's a hundred percent risk-free on the other hand were very comfortable with the kinds of controls and the kinds of modeling that we've done of emissions and with the very strict monitoring requirements that we put in these permits that number one. We don't think there's going to be a problem in number two, we're fairly confident that if any problem should occur in the future that that will have the ability to deal with it and what we're talking about in terms of these pollutants aren't the kinds of things that cause immediate problems there were talking about very miniscule amounts of in some cases chemicals, which up until a few years ago couldn't even be measured and we're talking about potential risks from long-term exposure to these amounts. So again, we feel through our through our approach of stringent controls. That monitoring that that we can use this as part of a solution to the solid waste problem, but certainly not not the only answer. All right, let's go back to the telephones and more listener questions. Hello, you're on with Tom Kalinowski a comment with trees. I've noticed in Manhattan that both the ginkgo that's been around since the time of the dinosaurs and the Sycamore are the ones apparently that can stand up to pollution from heavy automobile exhaust. The second comment is that when it comes to recycling some of the suburbs have ordinances against composting and the question that has bothered me more recently is the magazines that I get now are covered with clear plastic so you can see the Her and it's got a sticker with your address on it. That's from petroleum products. And if they used paper that's a renewable resource, and I just don't know that there's any way you can get back to the publisher and say why do you cover my magazine with plastic that comes from petroleum instead of just using paper like you used to do there's no question that you hit upon the basic problem. I we have become such an over packaged society and and I'm not sure I'm not sure how you get at the problem. But it but there's no question that the more problems we have with dealing with waste in the more costly that becomes the more we have to start looking at the front end and in basically get at how much waste we generate and and I think that the only way ultimately that we're going to make some changes in packaging is if consumers Like yourself let the manufacturers know that we don't need it. We don't want it. About the refillable plastic milk butter naan refillable plastic milk bottles is another one that has come onto the scene recently. Now, there's no question. And in fact, we're seeing a great greater and greater share of the of the contain bolg beverage container Market is becoming plastic and that raises those same questions. The the pollution control agency has taken a strong position last year that the we should have container deposit legislation in Minnesota. I expect we're going back to the legislature next year again to to raise that concern. It just makes sense that you that you re use the resources we found in poll after poll that minnesotans are willing to go to the little extra trouble of bringing their containers back and getting a deposit. It has tremendous benefits from a litter standpoint tremendous benefits from a resource recovery, and and it's it's certainly a It's Time Has Come ban the can the issue that won't die. Let's move on to another question or here. Go ahead, please. Many apples would not allow you to put a well in I was trying to get one and they would not allow that. I'm sorry. I can't answer that the health department is the the state agency that deals with drinking water and and my agency is involved in that. Alright, and let's move on then to your question. Hello there. Yes. Thank you. I'd like to ask I work at a gasoline terminal in the Twin Cities and I wondered if the Minnesota PCA had any plans regarding vapor recovery. Well again vapor recovery is one of the one of the options for for reducing pollution. I'm not sure specifically where what's your question refers to one of the things that's being looked at is is requiring some kind of vapor recovery right at service stations. So that that both the in self-service the driver or in full-service, the employee aren't exposed to the vapors and also so ultimately the air isn't and that's one of the other options that that a number of cities including and a number of States including Minnesota are looking at to reduce air pollution. It would that be a deal where you'd have to where they'd be two hoses on the gas pump Bob. I'm not sure specifically at what the configuration is, but it would it would take place right at the pump. Yeah. Yeah moving on to your question then please yeah. If salt put on our roads every winter and I would just wondering what the long term effect of all that salt will be to our ground and ground water and so on. Thank you. That's not an issue that that we've that I'm particularly familiar with in terms of specific environmental problems that have been attributed to the to the roadside salt. I know there's obviously a lot of concerns about what it does to the car and in some cases what it might do to some roadside foilage, but I'm not aware that that poses a threat to the groundwater as such. Okay. Go ahead please with your question for Tom Kalinowski. Okay. I've just wonder if you look around the state capitol and notice all the marble ornamentations around the doors and the windows and that type of thing are all deteriorating and I just wonder why someone hasn't taken it up with the newspaper made some publicity about it sent photographs to boschwitz and durenberger and President Reagan to see if we can't push this business of cutting down on the acidic condition of our state. Well, it gives me an opening to talk about acid rain and there's no question. But that acid rain has been documented as a as creating serious problems with buildings and monuments infected one of the things that I don't think got enough attention with all of the hoopla over the the refurbishing of the Statue of Liberty was the role that acid rain played in causing the Statue of Liberty deteriorate and in Minnesota, we have we've attempted to deal with the problem as best we can as one small island 2 by setting up some some very strict regulations, probably the strictest in the country with regard to emissions of sulfur dioxide, which we believe has been have been proven to cause acid deposition which in fact have clearly caused Forest damage and and and threaten our lakes and threaten our monuments and there's no question that we need National legislation to deal with what is a Perhaps even International problem and we've got rules here in the state. And what were our efforts are now in Congress to try to get National legislation Tom Kelly Kapowski with us for a few more minutes and we'll put you on with him now. Hello there. I do a lot of swimming in the Minneapolis or the Mississippi River and I was wondering if I am I putting myself in any danger. Well, there's no question that there are pollutants in the in the Mississippi River. I I don't the goal the goal of the Clean Water Act is that all Waters be feasible and swimmable and I don't think that that's specifically the Mississippi River meets that though that swimmable standard right. Now one of the major concerns of course is raw sewage, which is still being coming into the to the river every time we have a rain event because of the fact that the the Twin City area sewers have not been separated and and so an overflow of rain will cause raw sewage to go directly into into the river and and obviously there are some health concerns about that. Legislation enacted last year has finally put the city's on a firm schedule a firm tenure schedule in those of you who who live among those neighborhoods with the streets torn up know that the cities are are finally moving now to get those sewer separated so that so that the sewage will clearly go to a treatment plan to not directly into the river, but I'm not in a position to provide Health advice but there's no question that the water the quality of the Mississippi isn't what we'd like to see it be and it's not what it's going to be in a few years. Once you get the sewer separated will that end the major source of pollution in the Mississippi? I think there's no question. That's the major source. They're also of course our are pollutants from runoff that that come through the storm sewers, but there's no question that the major problem in the in the in the stretch of the Twin Cities here in Mississippi is the is the sewage. Okay? We have another caller with a question. Go ahead. You're on the air now. Yes. I have just recently noticed a lot of He's damaged or trees with damaged limbs can that be directly attributable to the acid rain issue? Our studies in Minnesota have concluded that there probably is not specific tree or Forest damage attributable to acid rain. We found that that really are lakes are more sensitive environment. However, there are combinations of air pollutants ozone and other other kinds of pollutants which come from from all kinds of combustion cars and power plants and everything else which in combination may cause some problems. I'm not sure if what you've observed is specifically attributable to to air pollution or not on the other hand in some cases It's a combination of things where a plant or a tree is weakened from some other reason and and much more susceptible to problems that that air pollution got would bring about we might be able to get everybody who's waiting a chance. And here let's see. Go ahead. You're next. Do you know of any serious programs to educate the public in their own lifestyle that would reduce pollution use of polluting items in our lives. And what about the eastern North Eastern states that have recycling laws now and recycling plants that we could study with regard to education there clearly is an expanding program in the schools to try to get that kind of education curriculum available for students that from the earliest grades on at the PCA. We have a public information office. We have a booth at the State Fair. We have packages for teachers at various grade levels to to set up programs and there's no question that that's the key to the future is that is education and getting people to understand that in some cases. Need to change our lifestyle with regard to the recycling and container deposit. In other states. We clearly have gotten a lot of information from from states that have done a much better job of recycling and in clearly have done a better job of getting their beverage containers back by by enacting deposit container deposit legislation, and and we're trying to put these facts together for the legislature to try to show what can be done based on what other states have done and you have a chance now to talk to Tom kowtow ski, go ahead, please. Thank you so much pollution control measures are control lawsuit and there are seven knots. Mapo 7 is and filters Etc expensive. I'll hang up and listen. I don't think and nor is anyone from the company suggested to me that that was a direct Factor. There's no question that the the whole iron ore industry is extremely volatile minds are closing other companies have shut down that that haven't been been subjected to the same kind of pollution control expenses as Reserve. So I really think that there were a lot of other factors that came into play in that in that bankruptcy and I think we have one more question or two more. Let's see we can get you on for sure. Go ahead. Good afternoon. We read a lot about the Environmental Protection Agency the pollution control agency the Met console and waste management board amongst other agencies. What's the difference between all these agencies and how does the pollution control agency work with them to control pollution and protect the environment? Okay. I know we're short of time Bob. So I'll give a real quick answer the EPA was given by Congress the charge to clean the air in the waters. There's Federal. Asian that restricts air and water pollution the EPA in effect has delegated to the Minnesota Pollution Control agency The Authority within the state of Minnesota to carry out those laws and to issue those permits. So about half of the funding of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency comes directly from the federal government to carry out those federal laws. We have additional state laws that the EPA doesn't enforce and of course we have staff from the legislature to do that. The the waste management board was given a very specific charged with regard to the sighting of a hazardous waste facility. They also are the grants agency they handle planning and assistant and grants making in the waist area the Met Council handles primarily planning and assistance in the metropolitan area with regard to waste issues and and some other issues as well. So obviously we don't have the time to get into the whole scheme of things. But that's at least a quick outline short course in Relations, right? Yeah, Tom, we have indeed run out of time. Thank you very much for coming in and visiting with us today. Thank you Mama. Obviously a lot of interest in environmental issues around the state of Minnesota. Tom Kalinowski has been with us today. He is executive director of the Minnesota Pollution Control agency. There is time to briefly recap the weather forecast and it is not an unpleasant one at all partly to mostly cloudy skies across the area with cooler less humid conditions today temperatures ranging from the low 60s in northern Minnesota to the mid 70s in the South and then tonight clear in the East partly cloudy in the west lows in the 50s and 60s tomorrow partly cloudy and a little warmer chance of thunderstorms in the west highs from the upper 70s to the upper 80s from the north to the South today's broadcast of midday.