(00:00:01) The important and sometimes controversial topic of sex education is the subject of this hour. My guest is one of the nation's best known sex Educators doctors saw Gordon. He is the director of The Institute for family research and education at Syracuse University. He's a prolific author appearing in a variety of magazines. He's written quite a few books including one called raising a child conservatively in a sexually permissive world with his wife Judith Gordon and electrics frequently in the United States and abroad dr. Gordon. Welcome. It's nice to have you in the studios. Thank you delighted to be here. You have been in this sex education business for a long time. Now, what about 25 years or more? Right? What kinds of changes have you seen in those 25 years our kids today more sexually active than those of 25 years ago. Of course they are but that's their we don't have a correspondence corresponding progress in sex education you see I must say things like the reason why we have all this decadence is because of sex education in the schools. We have fewer good sex education programs now than we had 15 years ago, you know less than 10% of American school children are exposed anything approaching a sex education if I was described American sex education programs, I would describe a course in plumbing a Relentless pursuit of the Fallopian tubes. Well, they say there's you know, some schools claim they have sex education. They have two classes of menstruation for girls only with a Walt Disney film. So things have gotten worse in every way and and the corresponding need to correct the situation is not in evidence, you know, we have in the United States the highest rate of unwanted pregnancy venereal disease and abortion of any developed country in the world. Our rate is four times higher than in Scandinavia, six times higher than Holland and you know, the difference is that those countries have really good sex education programs and they Ready availability of contraception. So the people who claim that if you have you know, it's the pill it's the pill that's making girl screams / Miss. Qiu has that's ridiculous. You know, the promiscuous girl is not getting pregnant. She's on the pill the girl is getting pregnant. There's a girl who doesn't believe in sex. She supposed to sex our parents and Ministers of made of guilt even thinking about sex thinking, you know guilt has not reduced sexual behavior is simply reduced preparation planning for sex. Do you know that in this country less than one in ten young people use any reliable form of contraception the first times they have sex whereas in Scandinavia nine out of ten young people use contraception the first time they have sex. So you're saying that the kids who wind up pregnant are the ones who are badgered into being into not having any sort of sexual activity by their parents that get themselves caught in a situation and there they are they don't know what to do. That's right think it's swept You know, it's like you hear people say it can't happen to me. You know, you can't get pregnant having sex the first time even in this day and age. I took one of my mother's pills, you know, or it's so romantic just to let it happen. It's not romantic. Just let it happen. It's stupid just to let it happen. Those are the messages. I mean, I'm pretty conservative in this field. I don't even think teenagers should have sex. Hmm. Well, let's talk about what should be in sex education in the schools then in the role of sex education in the schools and how much you have sex education should be done by parents by Churches by other organizations. Well, you see parents are the primary sex educators of their own children, whether they do it well or badly and they might as well do it. Well, if you're an Eskimo parent your children will ask you questions at 3:00 and at foreign at fine, and we say to parents answer those questions say answer truthfully and don't use inappropriate language. What is this? We we peacock out kind of languages that use penis vulva vagina. Those are the correct words. And when you give your child the information that he or she needs don't tell the child to keep it confidential, you know, the chill the parents who give misinformation never tell their children to keep it confidential. It's about time that our children became the sex Educators in the neighborhood if your neighbor doesn't like it get another neighbor. I mean, why do we always have to move let them move so that the focus here is that parents are the primary sex Educators now, they can't be the exclusive sex educator, you know, you have extremist who are no nothing's in this field say things like, you know, I want to be the exclusive sex educator my own child. How can you be the exclusive sex educator of your own child in order to be the exclusive sex educator of your own childhood have to wrap the child and cotton not with the child watch TV. Listen to the radio have any friends go to any public school bathroom in the United States. You can't be the exclusive you can be the main the most important and here's another important point. We sometimes even sex Educators intimidate parents and they say, yeah, Have to be comfortable with your own sexuality. Well who's comfortable about anything anymore? I mean Comfort is finished. When is the last time somebody said don't worry and you stop the point is this that the next step is not paralysis, you have to educate your child whether you're comfortable or not you see and and and it's very important if you're in askable at 3 and it for and it fine then they'll ask you questions at six and seven and at 9:00 because I'm hopefully at 15 and 16. That's right. But if you're if you have children that are already teenagers and you haven't talked to that to them and you try to talk to them and they say things like oh Mom Dad that's gross. You know, they won't even let you talk to them and here's my advice to parents who haven't spoken to their teenagers if if they respond and then want to talk to you. Please don't start talking to them about their sex problem because they see it as an invasion of their privacy start talking about, you know sex in general, you know about what Dear Abby Or how Ann Landers respondent, you know open up the subject become credible as somebody who can converse with about the general area of sexuality, you know can also kids like gossip, you know, they like what's happening in our society about other people's sex lives, you know, and and and then if then get ahold of my I have a book for teenagers, it's called the teenage survival book. It's you know published by Times books get a hold of that book is made of comic books and it's graphically very interesting and the average teenager be willing to read it get ahold of it. Put it on the coffee table and say don't read this Buck almost no kid can resist that you say so so that's the role of the schools. That's a role that parents. All right. I want to stop here and give out the phone number. So people get in with questions. Obviously we can go on for quite a while here without that. But we want to give you a chance to participate in this conversation to to 76 thousand in Minneapolis st. Paul 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities and in other parts of Minnesota toll-free, One 865 to 9700. Dr. Saul Gordon is in the studio. Now before we take a listener question briefly the role of the schools in sex education the role of schools are supplementary to the parents that you can't substitute, you know for the role of schools. The church's own. I believe that we need to deal with with the real issues. You know, we have surveyed in at Syracuse University. We've gotten a fifty thousand questions and in anonymously submitted by teenagers from all over the country. Not one teenagers ever asked the question about the Fallopian tubes, you know, we need to talk about decision making about love about masturbation about homosexuality. These are the questions young people have I believe in a moral sex education. You know, what whose morals well hours when you mean ours we're talking about this is a democracy. We need to teach the highest aspirations of the Democratic Society. We live in you know, We're against sexism Against Racism were against exploitation. It's okay to say to a kid. Listen, I don't think you should I don't think you should get pregnant. You better not add that if you have sex before marriage, you're going to go to hell because that's none of your business. You don't know it's you're not allow the proselytize we have separation of church and state. So I believe in a moral sex education as against a moralistic sex education. And in that context we can teach about any controversial subject we can talk about abortion. But if you if you teach about abortion, you have to present both points of view, you can present your own personal point of view using so that's that's what I believe and we have to talk about real issues and if we get a chance, I'll talk about the most important question young people have and you know what it is. How can you tell if you're really in love? Alright? Well, we'll save that one for a few minutes from now. Let's move on to some listeners with questions doctor saw Gordon is here and your first with your question. Go ahead. (00:08:55) Please number one. What kind of a doctor is dr. Saul Gordon number two? In the local scene and we've had a conference Planned Parenthood and one of the participants said they would like to see on TV like Dallas or something my condom or yours number three when it comes to the conservative political, right? It bugs me tremendously that they would like to legislate the kind of morality or teaching that I could employ. (00:09:31) Well those are all good questions. And first of all, I'm a PHD psychologist the October issue of the current issue of Psychology today has a lead article by me on the subject. So I'm known as a pretty important person in this field for that's for my credentials the I believe we need to use media for sex education. We need to be able to for on Dallas on Dynasty for somebody's to say If somebody says listen, if you really love me you'll have sex with me. Hey, that's a line. You know, I'll go crazy. Well go, you know, you know, I'll just stay in for a minute. You know, what a microwave oven the point is we have to give messages to young people that say that sex is never never never a test of love and we really have to be able openly and freely to tell kids that it's not true that once a boy starts. He can't stop. You know, what do you find on media? You know a girl walks past a guy and immediately his brains fall out. I mean, that's the kind of socialization we offer men no men, no wonder 90% of all males 90% of all males who make teenage girls pregnant abandon them. I mean, we're talking about a national disaster of a million 300,000 pregnancies. And as far as people trying to impose their Moral point of view I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, this is a democracy. This is not a Christian, you know people seppuku. We want to create a Christian Republican. Jerry Falwell says, you know, oh, I want to create a judeo Christian Republic. I don't want to Christian Republic. I don't want to judeo Christian book. I just want to Republic where all religious groups are free to express themselves in whatever way they want. But if you're going to run for president, I can tell you your subject to ridicule you subject to criticism. You can't back up and say I'm running for president. I'm a Christian Canada. You can't criticize me you saying we have to be open about these things and and and you know, we cannot impose one's own religious point of view. I mean, what's it all this Judea Christian, I mean, there isn't a single practicing judeo Christian the whole country who we talking about sex education is our subject today with Saul Gordon, dr. Saw Gordon from Syracuse University and author and lecturer and we have more listeners with questions your next go ahead please (00:11:58) I was surprised in a sense. And another sense. I was not surprised to hear. Dr. Gordon say that there is less sex education available to kids in the public schools today than 20 years ago. I wonder if he could expand on that and give some more details as to advances and Retreats in the number of sex ed programs that are available in the school's over the last 20 (00:12:23) years problem has been that administrators and superintendents of schools have been overly responsive to extremists, you know, sometimes you have three or four people opposing a sex education program and that's that's what happens and that's what's happening all over the country we have in people who are easily intimidated. We don't realize that 83 percent of the American people favor sex education schooled and then the few places where we do have by the way, there are only two states in the whole country that have mandated sex education. That's New Jersey that's recently mandated in Maryland. So, you know, we have less programs because People are afraid they're afraid of controversy man controversy is part of the American way of life. I don't understand it. So what's happening is when there is sex education in the schools, you know, people say there's a lot of opposition to it. We don't know of any school since District in the whole country where there is sex education where more than one or two percent of the people opposed it, you know, there's no compulsory programs. You can always get your child out of it so that when there are programs, you know here in Minnesota. There's a family life educator was voted teacher of the year marvelous lady. She's been teaching sex education for years and years. She said over a thousand students she had over a 20-year period one parent withdrawing the child. So where's all this opposition coming from? It's coming from vocal extremists who are intimidating. I was invited in Jenison, Michigan to speak, you know for people from the Eagle Forum protested and I was cancelled then And hundred students marched on the board of education demanding that I be given a right to speak, you know, and then the board reversed it. So and when I spoke I spoke to a you know, I got a standing ovation from the kids the instead of 70 people in the in the in the Board of Education in the the parent Teachers Association, meaning the worth thousand there when you say to the people who oppose sex education on the grounds that to talk about sex education is to condone teenage sexual activity. Well, you can say that all you like you can say anything you like there's no evidence for it is a matter of fact all our research the no exceptions to This research revealed that yet parents who talked about sex with their kids. There's there the kids who delay their first sexual experience and when they have sex they are more responsible is schools here is schools here in Minnesota, you know, Minnesota's you can't use Minnesota as a model, you know for sex education you could use it as a model because there's more sex education programs in Minnesota than almost any other state. Eight if the and they're doing reasonably well and that's why Minnesota has one of the lowest rates of unwanted pregnancy of any state in the Union you see and then in places where they've experimented with the school clinics, for example in st. Paul they've been able to reduce pregnancy rates by 25 to 30% So and then if you think about it in Scandinavia where they have sex education and people openly talk about it. So of responsible messages are on the media contraception is readily available their rate is far far lower in pregnancy venereal disease and abortion than ours. So we have all the evidence. Let's move on to some more listeners with questions. Go ahead you're on saw Gordon is listening. (00:15:49) Yes. I'm I'm curious about the history of sex education in countries like Scandinavian countries are in Holland. You mentioned those two. As opposed to our own history. What is it about America or the United States? That's different. Why why don't we and you said there's a vocal opposition in the school's I understand that but am I correct in assuming it's not just a difference in level of sex education in the schools that there's also something different about about the way parents in these two parts of the world approach their children or isn't that right? It is the schools no (00:16:30) course not it's you're quite right where we have puritanical background old-fashioned religion had a big impact, you know, we're still saying in this country. We're still saying if you have sex before marriage, you'll have nothing to look forward to a marriage will be no surprises a marriage. I say if that's the only surprise in marriage don't marry. I mean he you'd be an idiot to marry for sex. We still say this when less than 10 percent of couples are both virgins on their wedding night. I mean the parents in Scandinavia or not that hypocritical you think they understand that young people will have sex and and and if you're going to have sex don't get pregnant, you know don't Sprint venereal disease. There's a whole societal attitude. That's quite different We're a nation of Hypocrites. The only message we have to young people is just say no, that's all that's all we have. You know, we have all these people in the all these people in poverty and all these people are victims of racism and sexism. You know, we have these girls who think that the only way they can get themselves out of a horrible horrible poverty is by getting pregnant and just say no and if and if you interfere being molested you (00:17:50) just say no to you molesting them alistel hop away, (00:17:54) you know, we have we eliminated rock music, you know, and and that's the way we'll Stop all this promiscuity. You know, we had we did surveys of lots of kids who we asked them. What do you know? What's the ask them to write out the words the lyrics of the rock music. They don't know them, you know, who knows them the wives of the Senators who were studying this rock music using they know it. Well, I mean, I don't say these things don't have any influence, you know, everything has an influence but you know, the big influence is poverty. The big influences is a society where there with his whole segments of our population that are impoverished alienated feel that they'll never amount to anything they'll ever know how we can respond to them just saying, no, you know, there's also a lack of Education. I don't say if we had sex education in schools. We would eliminate our problem, but we might reduce unwanted pregnancy by 20% That's a lot. Let's move on to some more listeners saw Gordon is in here talking about sex education today and you're on with him next go ahead, (00:18:58) please. Peter I would like to say, I'm really happy to hear you today Saul and I especially appreciated what you were saying about being able to teach sex education with some moral values and not being afraid that because you're saying there are moral values involved that that necessarily means that it's Christian values are religious values. I think that's one of the reasons that we've declined in our sex education is that we're all of a sudden afraid but two of the we're going to go over the division between church and state and I really appreciate what you had to say about that. Thank (00:19:29) you. Thanks. You see that's a terrible confusion, you know values clarification got that whole thing confuse. I'm not a not that I'm against it, but they began to concentrate on unimportant things. Like if you had the four people in three row boats in a desert island. What do you do? I mean the thing is ridiculous. There are values it is wrong to exploit another human being it's wrong to say to a girl you loved her in order to have sex with her. You know, there are Certain compelling values of our democratic system. We don't say listen honey. It's listen kids. It's you know, there are two kinds of pedestrians those who litter the streets and those who don't both equally good choose one, you know? No we say don't Litter the streets. We don't say listen, there are four social and economic systems in this world is communism Fascism and akane democracy all four equally good choose one know we're committed to democracy. This is the kind of society we care about and we believe in and we're committed to and the same way we don't want the people to exploit each other. We think it's a mistake. It is a health hazard for teenagers to get pregnant. There's no question about that, you know half of all the people in prison today were born to teenage mothers every index of Psychopathology in our society is positively correlated with being born to a teenage mother. Of course once a kid is born we have to do everything we can to help the kid, but most of them are not Helped, you know, we were all these people who want who want compulsory pregnancy, you know where they helping these poverty kids in the ghettos and the inner cities. Where are they when when these kids cry for help, you know, and they're on drugs and the being beaten and so on. Let me ask you a practical question. You said at the beginning the broadcast that if you're an approachable parent the kids will start asking a questions at 3 6 and so on if you're not an approachable parent and you can't make yourself being approachable parent, is there someplace else the kids can turn not really they'll turn to their friends which will give them this information. That's where kids get most of their information. That's why if you feel that you can't handle it get a hold of a book, you know, they're plenty of books in the library, you know, go to October is National family sexuality Education Month most libraries have exhibits The Librarians are alert to this even little kids at three and four get ahold of that. Go to the library get ahold of did the sunshine before you were born. You know, there's so many books my raising a child conservatively in a sexually permissive world is a book that answers questions that parents have you know, it's based on 30 years of experience of hundreds and hundreds of questions appearance of hand. What do you do if your child walks in while you're having sex? How do you handle playing doctor? You know, what if your kid asks you a question in the supermarket? These are all questions that we respond to and we don't play no games. You know, we say blah blah blah blah. We tell them we give them the best of our information if you don't like it don't use it. All right, let's move on to some more listeners with questions saw Garden is in the Studio's today and you're on with him next. Go ahead. (00:22:54) I read some of the books that my daughter brings home from school that they buy for just getting the kids in the library to read and these are well their romance novels for teenagers and they always end up with having somebody in love with somebody right away as soon as everything all get straightened out or the kids seem to think that that being in love is something that just happens not something that grows. They don't talk an awful lot about six but I suppose that's because of the type of (00:23:34) thing there. So what so what's your question specifically ma'am? (00:23:38) Well, I would just like to know what dr. Gordon has to say about these kids that talk about Simply being in (00:23:44) love. Yeah, that's a really good question. And I thank you very much. You know, a lot of these romance novels are Just Junk novels but it's this is no harm in it, you know, they we have to sort of provide other kind of information and other kind of resources, but you know, it's a terrible light and our society that most marriages don't work, you know half of all marriages break up in five years time. So we're talking about the family and marriages and we're not paying attention to the most important question love that you can people say love is blind, you know, well love is blind for only 24 hours and then you have to open up your eyes and see whom you're in love with, you know, love at first sight. I advise people to take another look, you know, here's if I have one message that I'd like to get across the young people it would be to think through this whole thing about love listen to this. If you feel yourself to be in love you are unfortunately the two kinds mature and Immature Immature love is Hosting you tired all the time. You can't you too tired to do your homework. You're too tired to shower me wash the dishes. I'm in love and you have what we call a hostile dependent relationship. You can't stand to be with the person you supposed to be in love with and can't stand without them when you without them. I miss him. I miss him miss him when you've got the they fight and argue most of the time and one of them usually says the other you really loved me. You really love me. I advised the other person say no you'll have your first authentic conversation that way and then people confuse love and hate, you know, a kid a high school kid came to me and said I could see her boyfriend beat her up. She had a big black eyes. What happened? Oh my boyfriend beat me up. Has he ever done this before Oh, yes several times beat you up several times. Why do you stay with him? I love him you love him and he beats you up. I have news for you. If somebody hits you that means they don't like you write that down pass that around as a rumor every city in this country has a shell. For battered wives if somebody hits you that doesn't has nothing to do with love and has to do with hate with Neurosis. If you have a mature relationship you care about each other your desire to please the other person who's a little bit more important than that person pleasing you your you have energy you can wash the dishes you can take out the garbage in nice to your parents. You even nice to a younger brother and sister you don't give up your friends the most important aspect of a mature relationship is energy and optimism. You want to please the other person. Why can't we teach that in the schools? So Gordon sex education expert and more listeners are waiting with questions. Go ahead please. (00:26:28) Dr. Gordon. I'd I'd like to challenge you on some of the databases that you keep mentioning. I'm a health researcher. But first I want to make a side comment and I'm really disturbed by your total intolerance of people who disagree with your point of view. You've been you've called them in these few minutes extremists know nothings puritanical Etc. And you're very intolerant of people who disagree with you. (00:26:54) Well, let me comment on that. They'll listen people call me, you know, they want me to be polite but when they attack me, they call me America's leading pornographer perverse, you know, there has to be a little drama on our side. We can't just have drama on your side so to speak so I'm open I'm free. I say what I like people are attacking me all the time. This is a democracy. There's a country Social issue and I have a right to express myself and the way I understand it, you know, there's a lot of Statistics in this field, but there are a lot of Statistics, you know figures don't lie. But a lot of people a lot of people lie about these things, you know, I have an article in today in the current issue of Psychology today when which I document all this stuff. Let's hear a little bit more about your comment (00:27:42) now things that you are worthy. They're hard and so on they have that we have a hundred times more than that. We have 10 times more than say that even (00:27:54) didn't say that you see you don't even get my figures right? I said four and a half times higher rate of abortion unwanted pregnancy and the venereal disease. I said four and a half times (00:28:07) the comparison it was made in Famous paper and family paying perspectives left all countries, which in fact have very much lower rates of abortion VD and out-of-wedlock pregnancy and have do not have sex the militant sex education. The comparison was never made with countries such as Ireland some of the Mediterranean countries. And (00:28:31) so what we're talking about developed countries were talking about Japan were talking about England were talking about Canada we're talking about come. What does Ireland got to do with United States. I mean we're talking about when making comparisons that make (00:28:42) sense in health research and look at you know, the variable you think is making the change and and if in Ireland you don't have these high rates, but you also do not have the militant sex (00:28:53) education. You know, what you're talking about is the three million people in Ireland's is a Catholic country. There's a you know, there's why do people not stay in Ireland because it's a repressive country that has one of the highest immigration rates in the world. How do you relate to that people? Our are angry people when they want abortions, they go to England. I mean you want to know stuff like that abortion is illegal in Ireland. So tens of thousands of Irish women just cross them in the chat with you know, it across that see and they go to England. What are you talking (00:29:26) about out of wedlock births that they haven't course they do they agreed in young people. (00:29:32) Oh, what are you talking about? You see in Sweden in Sweden. They they report all are all this suicides. It is now estimate that less than one-third of suicides are recorded. It's all called accidental death. I mean you can use figures in the most distorted way. I'm really surprised at you and you consider yourself a health educator and researcher. I must honest we're talking with saw Gordon sex educator author lecturer and we have a number of listeners on the line with questions. You mentioned a moment ago that there are so many kids that I grew up in a single-parent homes and so on and so forth today that it seems to be kind of a standard situation. What kind of Role Models do kids have our kids growing up today? Assuming that that's the standard thing. It's sad, you know, I don't you know, I have to tell you I don't think teenagers should have sex they really too young the two vulnerable there too readily available for exploitation. The they don't know the first experience of sex is grim. I mean, it's a health hazard and but we were so dumb. We just say no, we have to give messages to young people that that's say things like listen, if you're not gonna listen to me at least use contraception. The single message is not working with drugs. It's not working with alcohol. It's not working with sex, you know, it's beginning to work with alcohol to double message. You know, I don't think Tina's just drink but if you get swept away you get carried away your drink anyway, it's pure pressure. Please don't drive. Hmm. That's the that's the message that's beginning to work. You know, I think it's okay for parents to Also, I think you should wait until marriage before you have sex, you know, the talmud says that if you should expect miracles, but don't count on them. You know the chances of your child waiting until marriage about 1 in 10. I mean, let's be realistic. No wonder we're not making any any progress in this country in this field because we're totally simplistic recently. It's not a question of single, you know of a you know, they're perfectly good we have to stop blaming mothers and and we have to stop blaming the single parents, you know, there are some single parents who do a much much better job than to quarreling angry hostile parents, you know, so and also I want to reassure single parents and it's okay if you have boys too in your mother to sexually educate them, you know, you don't have to have a father necessarily it's better. Of course. It's better to have two parents who are nice to each other who love their kids and and and it's better for a child to grow up in a home with both biological parents and still there when you get ready to go to college that's only two thirds of the home one. Third of the kids already live in homes where they don't have to biological parents, so But we can't make this a tragedy we have to make the best of it and whatever we do and and that's why I say we really have to move towards educating your children, whether you're a single parent stepparent whatever, you know, and we can't visit the sins of the parents on the children we have to do what we can so that this vicious cycle isn't promoted and repeats itself over and over again more listeners are waiting with questions and we'll take you next. (00:32:51) Hello. I have two questions for Sagar and one I read your some of your books. I really liked a lot of the lines that you have four girls, which is something which you just mentioned but I think you need more lines for boys know that boys can say to their Macho friends who sit around boasting a lot scoring and so on so I wish you'd come out with some more lines for (00:33:12) boys. I'm coming. I'm thinking about that. You're quite right. I think I'm trying to spread rumors though. Like for example, if you anybody who boasts about sex is a liar. There's no exceptions to that rule or anybody who says they don't masturbate. That's the person who masturbates the most so, you know in a way I'm trying to convey in a dramatic way. And by the way these I don't have any research, but I know it's true. I mean the kids who lie the most of the ones are the biggest boasters, you know, they talk about all this scoring and scoring and we know when we talk to them personally and in clinical settings that they're lying, they're lying through their because of their insecurities it and and people say everybody is doing it. So you have to say regardless. Well, then you won't have any trouble finding somebody else to do with, you know, we have to and we have the and I'll tell you another thing we have to say the boys girls have to say this and boys have to understand it. That boy says once you start you can't stop. Where is that establish? It's not in the Old Testament not even in the noon some boy made it up. They all line. Is true though, isn't it boys will be boys and girls get caught. It's right boys are supposed to have you know, there's a different social agenda, you know boys have sex because this is not Instinct. This is not biology. This is socialization boys have sex because of the possibility of sex and girls have sex because of the possibility of Love Tennessee Williams once presented in a really nice way. He understood this thing. He said promiscuity represents the possibility of love. It's powerful you think this is why don't why do so many women go to men go to single bars and have they know that if they have sex the first date the guy won't call, you know, they know it but they keep repeating this terrible experience over and over again. It's you know, there's a book called Swept Away by Carol Costello and by abandoned paperback, which he she deals with this agenda that it's Dreadful, you know, the way to test the relationship is not to have sex not only for teenagers but also for adults Don't have sex at the beginning. You can never never never test the relationship. You've never find out anything about a relationship by having sex at the beginning of a relationship. Those are messy and we don't even say stuff like that to kids to schools. You know, who I wanted to be spontaneous. I've never heard of a spontaneous boys planning and organizing this thing for you here is using television certainly communicates that message to but let's move on to some more listeners with questions at all. Saw Gordon is here and he's listening (00:35:54) mention the case of a woman staying with the battering boyfriend and because she loves them and also you just talked about women trying to bed single spires right away with guys. I just want to if you what do you think of this theory that I have that many women are brought up in homes where whether you know not respected by their fathers at the fathers would rather have boys and so They're used to being treated as caretakers rather than a full human beings and the used to being treated without respect so that they was tend to stay with the guy that doesn't treat him with respect and even beats them up because that's the sort of behavior. They're used to from men. They won't recognize as masculine any man that would treat them. (00:36:46) Well, all right. Unfortunately it is a you're right. There's a I don't say it's the total reason but there's an important element there. They a lot of women are socialized to think that if the men beats him up it's because they deserve it, you know that they didn't do right. They could have done more. So it's a horrible modeling that the lot of young women see and of course a lot of the men see the fathers of beating them up beating up their wives and and you know, there's a tendency to identify with the aggressor, you know, if you've been beaten you can tend to beat if you've been molested Tend to molest that's why we have to give messages, you know, hey, if you've been molested it you didn't like it. You know, it's like program and says be the father you would have liked to have had rather than the than the the father you had. You know, it's it wasn't your fault. Don't do what somebody did to you that you didn't like those the messages. We have to give that we have to intrude upon the almost compulsion that people have of identifying with the aggressor. It's like a repetition compulsion and a it's the saddest thing and why can't we tell teenagers listen if you've been molested it wasn't your fault. Don't do that when you grow up when you have a a the best revenge you want revenge. The best revenge is living well have a good family be the mother. You would have liked to have had not the mother you had Let's move on to some more listeners with questions. Go ahead saw Gordon is (00:38:19) listening. Hi, dr. Gordon. first of all and the fact that he Did not have sex but my question that I wanted to ask you about. If you could give your opinion perhaps on what effect is it on the children in the home when the parents are having sexual problems. And or one of the partners say is an incest victim or been sexually abused and then the other question was what about what suggestions you might have as far as education for a nine-year-old son. (00:38:59) Yeah. Well, you know, I these things are hard. You know, I don't I'm not about to be a hero in somebody else's situation in these are difficult than I can say that the best way to deal with all situations like that is to openly acknowledge. We made mistakes. Let's turn it into a lesson. Let's get some help. Let's get counseling instead of bearing the whole thing and pretending it didn't exist or has never existed. We have to open it up and you know, I advise you to read my book raising a child conservatively in a sexually permissive world because it answers a lot of these questions as best as I know how and it recommends different books that you could have available. But I have to say though that you know, I'm not for just a single message. You know, I have to say if you're not going to listen to me use protection it's wrong it's evil to bring unwanted children into this world and you know, and also in the school's, you know, I see sometimes people giving these birth control lectures two kids not a single kid is listening, you know, if there's an old zen expression that says when the mind is ready the teacher appears, it's only when the mind is ready does a teacher of a it doesn't matter what you say you have to get kids out. I've discovered the teenagers. For example our have a 30-second attention span for sensitive subjects. If you want to deal with a sensitive subject and you want to kind of get a message across 30 seconds like My birth control lecturers 30 seconds. Listen, you girls and after I said, I don't think they should have sex. But if you're not going to listen to me, you know, listen, if you're not on the pill use contraceptive home, be sure to put it in before you have sex and if the boy can't afford 50 cents for a condom he's too cheap to be allowed in. Well, I'll tell you the they'll remember cheap that we have to that's the kind of message. We have to get across to young people. We're playing games were telling about 10 different birth controls and then nobody's paying any attention. Mmm. Let's move on to some more callers. We have a phone Bank full of people who want to ask questions of Saw garden and your next go ahead. (00:41:07) Okay. First of all, I'd like to say that I appreciate that you're saying things like that sex is not a test of love. I think that's a very good observation. However, I would like to reinforce what an earlier caller said that you do seem to be to be very intolerant. People who disagree with you understand that your answer to that seem didn't make any sense. It is the fact that people are intolerant of useful somehow you have the right to be intolerant of them. (00:41:38) I'm using drama. I mean people people are speaking they're expressing themselves. I mean, what are we talking about? The the fundamentalist the right-wing fundamentalist have almost complete control of Sunday morning, you know Pat Robinson gets 200 million dollars. We don't have a single person on our side on Sunday. We we have to find we have to find ways of getting our message across. I'm I'm I'm open I'm dramatic everybody expresses their point of view and people attack me, so I can't respond. I mean, what is this? I'm supposed to be polite and nobody's polite to me what we have to be able to express ourselves openly and freely and the other point of view has 90% of the Airways. I mean, I need a little space. I don't think the people that will that point of view would agree with you sir? But let's move on to another caller in any case your next go ahead. (00:42:35) Yes. Thanks very much for your fine work in this field. First of all, I just knew that you want me to plug a very excellent resource for parents during the month of October locally. It's a course called how to talk to your kids about you know, what and the presenters are. Dr. Michael Resnick of the Adolescent health program of the University of Minnesota and Kathy and loaf who's coordinator of health services for the public schools in Minneapolis. And for those interested in this it's a on Tuesdays beginning October 14th from 729 at Northeast Junior High School through the Northeast Community School System scholarships are available for those who couldn't afford the cart or it's very low costs only (00:43:27) 58 No, thanks very much. So those are people I know that's a terrific program endorse it a hundred percent and thank you for mentioning it we have about 15 minutes left with saw Gordon. Let's see how many callers we can get to. Hello. You're on the air now. (00:43:40) No, I'm calling from cocaine and I'm enjoying program very much. My question is what if anything is being done to educate the team's about lifestyle lifestyle choices and the consequences. For instance AIDS. Thank (00:43:55) you. That's right and very little that's that's the problem. We don't do we don't talk about consequences very much. We just say just say no and nobody's paying attention to us, you know, so, you know AIDS is terrific, you know venereal disease. We had several million new cases of venereal disease among teenagers last year alone. And you know, it's not only AIDS which is a deadly disease of course, but what about the fact that 16th? I was in teenagers last year were rendered sterile because women because of untreated undiagnosed venereal disease. I mean, these are great tragedies and you're right. We're not teaching about consequence if you say hmm, if you give the double message, no, but if you must use contraception doesn't that really condone the sexual activity? I think that's people are concerned about that. It's a good concern at know. It makes sense it just the we have to look at the scene and see that no doesn't work. No, we don't we don't know of a single high school is country after 15 years of drug and alcohol education that's been able to reduce drug and alcohol consumption. We have to look at programs. We have to look at what's been having it isn't working. No, we don't think you know what it says though. I'll tell you what it says. It says the kids are not perfect. Just because you tell him not to they don't listen that's not a young people and adults are not perfect. They make mistakes and it's up to us to turn those mistakes into lessons parents need to give messages to kids. Listen. Nothing that ever happens to you will ever be made worse by you're talking to me about it. There are consequences. We don't you know, you'd be surprised how many kids have talked to my parents you got to be kidding. They'll kill me. My mother said if I ever come over pregnant, you'll kill me. I can't talk to them, you know parents give the message to young people that you love them you care about them that nothing that they will ever do will ever be made worse by talking to me about it. Here's another listener has been waiting for a while. Go ahead song Garden is listening. (00:46:15) Yes. I first like to say that I'm really enjoying the show. And secondly, I'd like to ask it seems to me that we as parents need to say to our kids that sexual attraction and desire what we used to call lust which sounds from the Bible, you know, like a terrible thing is really a good thing. It's a wonderful thing and a normal thing and that that should not necessarily though be confused with love and I think even married people have trouble with that. I think that adds to our divorce rate and it seems to me if we can say sexual attraction and desire and wanting to have all these feelings as good and that you should you should not confuse that because otherwise you say if I feel this it's a dirty thing unless I'm in love and therefore I must be in love and therefore since I am in love then sexual activity is okay. So it seems to me that if we can separate sexual attraction and desire and say that's good and love is good and sexual activity is good, but they have to separate all those three things it would help teenagers for sure. It would sure help married people as well because sometimes we're sexually attracted to other people put too but that doesn't mean we're in love and we ought to quit our marriages either. (00:47:20) Absolutely. That's it's a very good point, you know, we have to get across the idea that all thoughts all dreams all fantasies. All attractions are normal. You know, Behavior can be abnormal at you. You know, I'm married and I sometimes see a beautiful woman. I want to have sex with her. Now. The woman doesn't know it and my wife doesn't know it and I enjoy my walk you see we we have to understand that just because you're married you don't have blinders on if only kids and adults would appreciate you can't help your thoughts. They come from the unconscious sexual attraction is normal. That doesn't mean you marry that sexual attraction. That doesn't mean the next step is lost that does mean next step is rape. No, you understand that that's part of growing up and developing and and and you make moral choices. That's when human beings are all about moral and spiritual choices and let's take this caller. Go ahead, please. Run OS all Gordon. (00:48:12) Thank you. I'm from Rochester and I would like dr. Gordon to address the subject of sex education and young individuals with handicapped. (00:48:22) And yes, I feel that you know, it's terrible if we think that you know handicapped people just because they're handicapped. They have no sexuality, you know, it used to be that if you're handicapped you have enough troubles who needs sex, but but but people with handicaps are just as sexual just as much a need for love and caring and marriage. Is anybody else, you know, and and and we have to endorse and help them understand and appreciate their sexuality. And you know, I I personally have written a lot on the subject by the way, if anybody wants a full list of Publications and bibliography and sexuality you can write to me so Gordon Syracuse University Syracuse New York 13210 Syracuse University Syracuse, New York 13210 and we'll send it to you Gratis. Okay, let's take another caller at about 10 minutes before the hour. Hello. (00:49:18) Hi. My question is I would like to know if dr. Gordon has ever met. Movie or have any plans to do so I would be really nice to have some alternatives to the Dallas stuff and have the other boy in a real glitzy way. I'm ever done that (00:49:32) thank you very much. By the way, the the home video that I recommend is strong kid safe kids with Henry Winkler. It's fabulous. It's a lot of the stores rented for free and it's an all the libraries and it's a wonderful introduction the sex education and I was a consultant for that one but in but in February on Valentine's Day Paramount will come out with a video called how can you tell if you're really in love? It's dynamite. It's with the stores of family ties and cheers and it's based on my work. So and it's going to be inexpensively available in all the video stores, you know for 20 or 25 dollars. So that's the kind of work that we're trying to do and videos the way to go. I guess that is the message these days, isn't it? Here's another listener. Go ahead. You're on (00:50:17) good afternoon to you both. Doctor, I'm just addressing this to you in the course of your reply earlier on to a listener. You gave the impression that you couldn't possibly make a comparison in the situation in Ireland, which I am Irish incidentally and the United States or any developed countries because it was sort of backward and that's the reason so many people had to leave. I just would like to say to you that the reason that young people have to leave Ireland is that because 50% of young people are under the age of 25 with the youngest population in Europe. And the reasons are purely economic. We had a constitutional amendment two years ago in Ireland in which the vast majority of the people voted to insert into our constitutional right to life to The Unborn that's why it's illegal because we choose to do so, that's why about (00:51:08) 25,000 Irish every year gross over the to England to get their abortions. Let's move on to another caller here as we continue chatting. Dr. Saul Gordon on the topic of sex education. Go ahead, please you're on. (00:51:23) Yeah, Central Minnesota hasn't addressed the subject of homosexuality and in sex education. And is there any solid opinions on the cause of it? I'll hang up was not radio. (00:51:39) Thank you. You know, we don't know why people are homosexual, you know, the more we know about it the less we know. The only thing we know is that nobody chooses to be a homosexual. I never heard of somebody in his adult life who says, you know, I'm a heterosexual but I prefer a homosexual lifestyle homosexual is a person in his or her adult life who has finds themselves irresistibly attracted to members of the same sex and and has sex with members of the same sex. It's not okay to be anti-gay. Nobody chooses to be a gay some people heterosexual. Some people are homosexual. We're all God's creatures and that's that's that's why we we It is inappropriate. You know, I hear so many even intelligent people say if a faggot of approached me, I'll kill him. Why do you have to kill him? Why can't you say you have a headache or no? Thank you, or I'm going steady already. I mean we have to stop this that is you know homophobic in our society homophobia. You know, there's a whole is homosexual rape in the prison's, you know, the homosexual rape in the prison's is almost entirely a heterosexual phenomena some heterosexual male sodomized another heterosexual female Nicole that homosexual rape and prisons, you know, so we have to have a more fair, you know, we have it 5 to 10% of the population is gay and that's it. What are we gonna do throw them away? If you have a handicapped child what you're going to say? I don't want a handicapped child. I'll throw that child away. You know, we're all I'm religious. We are I think we're all God's children and and God created a multi-faceted opportunities. And disabilities and so on and we all have to live with it and find ways of living with each other. All right, you're on next with saw Gordon. Go ahead, (00:53:26) please. Thank you. I have two questions one is that I worked at the past both an abortion clinic and also in a rape center as a volunteer for counseling and the first question has to do with incest victims it appeared in a couple of times that giving talks to a large group of Mary teenage women that some of them had had incest experiences whether it was in it from their family or someone else that they had known in our neighborhood and I was wondering if saw had any idea of numbers as far as in the especially with repeated pregnancies for unwed mothers and the second question had to do with the area of abortion. I had heard that I don't have any statistical information on that. There are sometimes in a teenage pregnancy that ends an abortion because the child the child I'm saying child does not want to have the abortion they go out and Again become pregnant and so again another question is if he's heard any numbers as to the people that have had abortions one time, but then either decided that they really wanted to go through with the pregnancy went out and got pregnant again. Thank you. (00:54:32) We don't have any data on the second point. We think that maybe as many as 10% of boys and girls have been sexually molested and during some time before late adolescence and but not everybody who's been molested, you know become delinquent or molesters, you know, most of males who are molesters have themselves been molested. That doesn't mean that if you've been molested you become a molesta, the females have been molested most of them don't become molesters, but they are engaged in inappropriate and responsible sexual behavior or criminal Behavior. We have some studies in a Texas prison where in one prison 70% of the women in this prison were He molested at one time or another, you know, so it's a great Tragedy by the way, in terms of molestation. You might as well know the worst consequences of being molested is when you tell somebody and you're not rescued that's even worse than not telling anybody at all. We have time for one or maybe two more questions. Let's see. Go ahead please your (00:55:39) next checkup - fully Minnesota. I've been an educator for eight years and I've also been working in the field of chemical Abuse Prevention and I've been working with literally thousands of adolescents and I just want to say that so much of what you're saying is for my experience absolutely true. And so many of the messages that you are giving today, I think are real accurate and I just want to comment about the people who are calling in and talking about your intolerance and to have been accused of being intolerant of people in the past and my answer to those people is yes, I am intolerant. I'm intolerant of unwanted children being brought into this world. I'm intolerant of adolescents having to suffer the effects of the venereal diseases and the And the the other problems that come with sexual activity and which comes too early and people who get in the way of preventing those things cannot be tolerated. Yeah, and I just really appreciate what you have to say and I just want you to know that that my work with adolescents supports a lot of that and keep up the (00:56:35) good work. Thank you. And also there's a big connection between alcohol and a responsible sexual behavior. And and and that's why I think we all have to work together. I mean talk about intolerance, you know, I'm prevented from speaking, you know, two or three people protest my giving a talk talk about intolerance, you know suppose. I have a lively way of responding. I'm intolerant but people actually ban me from speaking they they they censor books and they're talking about intolerance. Well right on to this last speaker. All right, I don't think we have time for another call. I just want to ask you saw Gordon. Are you going to be giving any any public speaking speech is around the state of Minnesota? The next day or so. Well, I have already I was in Grand Rapids Minnesota and I'm on my way. I'm on a national tour now and I've decided to become a missionary. My my my mission is to say to everybody loud and clear knowledge is not harmful ignorance is harmful unresolved Curiosities harmful, but not knowledge. Don't let these nobodies tell you that if you tell kids about sex, they'll do it that's ridiculous all our research reveals that young people who are knowledgeable are more responsible. Well doctor saw Gordon, we've run out of time. Thank you very much for coming in and visiting with us. It has been a lively and stimulating our as always saw Gordon is one of the nation's foremost sex Educators director of The Institute for family research and education at Syracuse University.