(00:00:00) Weekend is made possible by economics laboratory products and services for household institutional and Industrial Cleaning worldwide. In the past few weeks. There's been a good deal of attention paid to the issue of child abuse seems like it's been in the news practically every day. Most of the attention has centered on the victim. Today. We're going to be talking about it from a different angle the angle of the abusive or potentially abusive parent this noon we have in the studios with this Jocelyn Tilson who is active in the Twin Cities chapter of a group called parents Anonymous a National Organization. And also one of the members of that group, her name is Gale. We may have somebody else joining us in a little while to will be opening the phone lines for your questions and comments and just a little bit but let's find out just a little bit about parents Anonymous and and what its purpose is with child abuse Jocelyn parents. Anonymous is a prevention intervention and treatment program for parents who are concerned about their potential to abuse their children or who have abuse their children. How long has it been in operation? The first parents anonymous group began in California by a parent who was desperately looking for some help and her and her therapist began meeting with other abusive parents and found that it was the only thing that had helped her stop abusing her daughter and in the Minnesota area 1978 the first people started being interested in parents Anonymous and there were about five chapters around the state organized at that time some funding mate was made available in 1979. And for two years, they were then 26 chapters in Minnesota more recently. There's been less funding in there are now only 12 chapters in Minnesota. Well, what what do you define as child abuse? What kinds of activities do you do cover parents Anonymous recognizes six forms of abuse physical abuse. Physical neglect verbal abuse emotional abuse emotional neglect and sexual abuse. We don't differentiate that any one kind is more damaging than another kind to a child, which is more common. I think maybe Gail can answer that better than I can tell you're a member of the group, right? That's right. I would say offhand. Of course. I don't have any statistics to base this on. But from what I've heard and from my own personal life, I would say verbal abuse. All right. Tell us a little bit about how you got involved in the group Gail at what is your background been? Well, I grew up in an abusive family system. There was not only those kinds of abuse going on that Jossie already went over but my parents were both chemically dependent so there was other kinds of abuse going on to as far as chemicals were concerned. My father was physically abusive verbally abusive. My mother was very sick when I was growing up because of her disease and I was emotionally neglected a lot. And then when you had kids while you passed it on I unfortunately I made about that. I was going to be the kind of mother or the kind of parent to my children that my parents weren't to me and typically as an abused child does grow up and no matter how much they want to be different. They they act out what they learned as a child and they role model what their parents have taught them. So that's what happened to me. I had a lot of emotional problems that I was unaware of and I was in a high risk situation. I was became a mother when I was 17 with my first child unwed so right away, you know, I had that This day, you know, I think stacked against me, but I tried to do with it the best I could and a lot of times that was just by denying it existed. I tried not to to admit that I had a problem that I was really just like all the other parents and that I was no different but inside I knew that I was doing the same things my parents had done and it hurt because I didn't want to I loved my children. All right five minutes past the hour talking with Gail a member of parents Anonymous and Jocelyn Tilson who runs the program here in the Twin Cities area 2276 thousand if you have a question for either of our guests in the Minneapolis st. Paul area in other parts of the state, we invite your call toll-free at 1-866-376-8255 is News 2 to 7, 6,000 elsewhere within the state of Minnesota one 865 29700 course, this is an issue that does not respect State boundaries. So if you're listening to us in any of the bordering states or in Canada, we invite your call. You can place the call directly to area code 612 2276 thousand and we will put you on right away. Alright, we've talked about some of the different kinds of abuse Jocelyn. How is Gail story fairly typical that is a parent who is abusive has come from an abusive background as it cross generational lines, like in her case. Yeah about you know, as far as they can tell between 90 and 95 percent of all parents who abuse their children were abused as children. So that seems to be the most productive, you know predestined pattern that exists is that if you were abused as a child the chances of are very very great of you doing the same things to your children that were done to you. That's the other thing is that if what happened in your family was that you were Had your ears pulled the chances are that you will pull your the ears of your child. If you whip were whipped with a belt the chances are that that's what you'll do with your children because that's what you've learned is appropriate. Even though as a child most children say I'll never do this when I grow up to my kids. All right, then the question becomes how do you break that string of behavior? How do you put an end to it? I think the first thing is that you need to recognize it and you need to recognize that what you're doing is is hurting yourself as well as hurting your child and I think Gail can maybe talk more about how that process works because she's been through that right? First of all, I think when you begin to recognize that you are doing this and you ready to get help you ready to say something's wrong here and I want to do something differently and I can I'm unable to that's the big the first step because then you reach out of your isolation and you find out that you're not bad children as an abused child. I learned that I that something was wrong with me. I'm that I deserved what how I was treated because children love their parents no matter what how they treat them if they beat them to a pulp children love them. And so I like other children assumed that it was my fault, you know, my parents were God and and so therefore I was doing something wrong and so I had to break out of that shame and as a parent I was stuck in that cycle. I I was again inflicting abuse on my And I was afraid to say yes, you know this hurts and something's wrong here because I thought well it's my fault and something's wrong with me. So breaking out of that isolation and saying I need help and I'm worth getting him and then finding out that people are there to help you and you are worth being cared about and people will respect you and accept you and you not this monster with horns on your head that you're a human being and that the reason that you're acting out like this is because you your needs as a human being you're the fact that you need to be cared about and nurtured and loved we're not met and you need to learn how to get those needs met all over again. We are open to telephone calls this noon 2276 thousand for Minneapolis st. Paul area listeners with a question about child abuse. Our guests are from parents Anonymous Jocelyn Tilson who runs the Twin Cities chapter and Gail who wants to remain anonymous A member of the organization 2276 thousand for Minneapolis st. Paul area residents and in other parts of the state the toll-free line is open as well at 1-800-669-9133. I think we have a caller on the line. Okay. Go ahead, please you're on the air. Would you put your headphones on Gail so you can hear the listener? Hi, you're on the air. (00:09:01) Yes. I just want to make a comment concerning about I maybe they don't mean to imply this but it seemed like every time a child may use a belt or something apparent on a child that it's inferred that this is child abuse. I myself have I know this is going to probably go inside what they said, but I do not view abuse children. In fact, I work a great deal with other people's children, but I think that there is a balance between A parent who is disciplining a child and a parent who was abusing and with all of this going on. I really feel it over. The problem with abuse children has been going on for a long time and has not received the attention that it should have but now it seems to be going overboard and I'm finding out and finding now that children at 12 13 and even younger and of course older are now threatening parents with with with the with the idea of any type of discipline would they please respond and I'm sure (00:10:06) Joseline I think you're right that there is a balance between disciplining and abuse and that that balance is who's in control and who's not in control a parent who is in a rage and out of control and is beating their kid with a belt is abusing their child a parent who has made the decision that the kind of discipline that is going to affect the behavior that they wanted their child may not be abusing their Child and using the same tool in the same technique. I think that it's a very delicate balance and we need to look more at who's controlling it and who isn't controlling it parents Anonymous parents don't usually feel good about what they have done with it when they're disciplining their kids most of the time parents feel guilty after they've discipline their kids. They feel ashamed guilty and they feel like they don't know what to do with the behavior that's happened to their children. What are they supposed to do? Well, what are some of the warning signs that a person is becoming potentially abusive? I think that each person needs to be able to see where it happens very quickly when that when you lose control with your self and that goal is to get so that you can see that you are beginning to lose control and make a phone call at that point make a decision to do something besides take that lack of control out on your children warning signs are different for each person. Some people might get sweaty Palms your heart might beat faster. You might some frequently parents will flash on when their child says something sassy to them their child parent will flash on what they said that to their parent and what happened to them and so they will then due to their child what was done to them when they did that Might know more about this. Okay, some of the things that I noticed in myself were that I get this sense of Shame right away. I am again the child that I was and I hear myself telling myself things like you're stupid. You're dumb. Why can't you handle this? The reason this you're my daughter if she's acting out the reason she's doing this is because I've been a bad parent. I beat myself verbally in my mind. My self talk is very negative and I beat myself. And so I start to before I never heard myself do that. I would just I would do it and then I would lose control now I can hear myself. I start to hear myself. I'd slow down I say I can hear that. I'm you know, I'm really not I'm telling myself a lot of negative things and I need to call someone and say, you know, I'm this is what's going on, and I need to hear some different feedback. I need to hear some. To feedback something that I'm not able to do at the time. Okay, 14 minutes past the are here's another listener or the question. We also have more lines open in the Minneapolis st. Paul area 2276 thousand 2276 thousand if you have a question for a two guests Jocelyn Tilson and Gail from parents Anonymous. Okay, you're next. (00:13:27) Yes. I'm calling from st. Paul. I've just been reading an article in the spring issue of free inquiry magazine called Ultra fundamentalist sex and child abuse. I'm also aware that at least one fundamentalist group in the Twin Cities area cells paddles with the inscription spare the rod spoil the child my question to the guests. Do they have they noted any correlation between fundamentalist religion and child abuse. (00:13:58) Joseline I think that I don't know that there have been studies done about this that generally how we discipline. Our children is considered a family affair and nobody's business and that that the fundamentalist religions strongly believe that as do many many other aspects as does our whole society believe that it is nobody's business how we are going to raise our children. The the problem is is is is making the decision that what you're doing for the children is whether you're in control or out of control and whether or not it's damaging or not damaging to the child and I don't think anybody can decide that for somebody else and how they're disciplining their children that that you know, you have to take the individual parents who belong to the fundamentalist churches and see where what they are actually doing and whether or not they're in control or out of control and and whether or not they're doing second. You know one issue in that is that if there's injury done to the child physical injury done to the child. Then it's no longer a family affair. It is considered an assault and it's in a different range of abuse. But most of the abuse that happens to children does not result in physical visual injury, what are the state laws regarding the reporting of the child abuse any professional social service person doctor must report any suspected abuse and the law defines physical abuse as an injury. So if you see an injury that you think might have happened because of abuse you're obligated to suspect that the investigation is done by the police to determine whether or not that's happened and and child protective services for emotional abuse and neglect. The law is not as clear because there it's more difficult. I'm to make a judgment about those things and individual standards vary so much wouldn't they? Okay, 17 past we have another listener with the question. Go ahead please (00:16:11) the gentleman who called immediately before me ask my question. And that was how do you determine the difference between abuse when we when we hit someone that's an adult it's assault and battery and is there I had heard that there was some kind of pending legislation regarding the corporal punishment of children, and I wish you would respond to that. Is there is that true or is that not true and I'd like to hang up and find out. Thank you. (00:16:42) Jocelyn I'm not sure if there is or not. I know that there every once in a while I hear rumors about that. There is some pending legislation on one thing or another but I'm not familiar at all with okay. Alright, another listener is waiting. Go ahead please you're on the air. (00:16:59) Hello. I'm calling from it. what you want to talk about but I have grown children now and I'm wondering if because I had some behavior problems with them when they were younger and I realize now that maybe I might not have handled them in the correct manner. Is there a possibility that they may react when they have children and punish use the same kind of punishment and that they received not that they were abused they were never abused, but they were punished only because maybe they did something wrong and is it is it right to discuss it with them and say well because you were punished this way, maybe you shouldn't punish your children in that (00:17:51) manner. I think that there's a very good likelihood that they will grow up doing to their children the same thing that was done to them and that if they want if you and they want to do something different about that that you do need to talk about it. They need to know how you made the choices and decisions that you made about your disciplining them and they need to know what the possibilities of doing something different are one of the things about parents Anonymous is that in most incidences of child abuse parents who abuse their kids are real isolated and they don't have an opportunity to talk with other people about what they're doing with their kids parents and Anonymous provides the opportunity for parents to in a very safe environment talk with other people who are feeling and doing similar things with their children and making a commitment to try to stop and when they when they do it again, they're given a lot of support for what they did differently this time, even though they may have abused their kid again. And and so there is ways parents Anonymous is in a national study that was done was proven to be one of the most effective methods of stopping abuse and of helping parents to actually end the physical abuse first and then the verbal and emotional abuse after It go ahead go one of the ways PA has worked for me. Is that as I stated before? I didn't get my needs met as a child emotionally physically in a lot of ways. I didn't get my needs met. PA gave me an opportunity to break out of that isolation where I could admit I need help. What can I do? I began to build trust relationships. Sometimes the first in my whole life where I could really be myself and ask somebody else for help and trust that they were going to be there for me and that they cared for me. So I began to learn how to get my needs met and a lot of parents who abuse their children don't know how to function the in that way in our society. They don't know other other people may take for granted the fact that they have friends that they can ask for help or if they're having a tough time. Will you please take my kids or You cook dinner for me tonight because I know I'm not feeling well or I'm under a lot of pressure parents who abuse their children oftentimes earn in a in a cycle where they can't reach out for help. They're too afraid to ask for help. And so they're unable to get their own needs meant kale. Do you consider yourself? Cured? No, and I never will be dealing with my abuse will be a lifelong process. I have made Leaps and Bounds as far as growth in that area, but there is still abuse going on in my household. It's not in in the same magnitude as it was a year and a half ago when I first joined PA, so there's definitely an improvement but I'm still in the process of learning how to get my needs met. I in many ways. I'm still growing up myself and getting a lot of consoling doing a lot of things for myself for the first time and as I grow that is reflected in the way. I My children, let's take another listener with a question for Gail and Jocelyn Tilson. Hi, you're next. (00:21:26) Hi. I'm calling from Minneapolis. I wanted to make a supportive comment regarding this idea that children who have been abused may or may not necessarily grow up to be child abusers. I think that there is a matter of perception that has to be looked into here. If a person has come to realize that they are abusing their children the there's a fairly good chance that they will apparently what the guests that was maybe over a 90% chance that they will feel that there was times during their own childhood that they were abused but that percentage is not necessarily the same percentage as the number of of children who were abused who will grow up to be abusers and I'm a child care provider and I've Did workshops on this subject? I'm definitely not an expert on the subject of abuse. But what I've been told is that children who have been identified as being abused by some outside Authority where there was some intervention and who were Then longitudinally followed into adulthood that the numbers are more like only fifteen twenty twenty-five percent of them will later on go on to abuse their children. So this is not an absolute guaranteed Destiny. There are some people are fortunate enough to to avoid this but in support of what your guests are saying, I would like to say that I feel that all parents and all child care providers do need to talk to other parents and child care providers to not be isolated and to have outside support on all the difficult questions of disciplining children and being kind to them and raising them to be good (00:23:15) adults. All right. Thank you for your for your comment. Any response Johnson? Yeah, I think that in those longitudinal studies those children all had intervention. They weren't isolated alone in families where their parents were doing without anybody knowing abuse to them. They were all in an instance where there was intervention and what we do know is that the earlier the intervention the greater the prevention and that that the studies are showing that so that's true. All right, 25 past we have lines open in Minneapolis and st. Paul at 2276 thousand have questions about child abuse. Our guests are Jocelyn Tilson runs, the Twin Cities chapter of parents Anonymous a support group and an organization that helps people deal with with abuse and also Gail who is a member of the Twin Cities chapter. In other parts of the state. Our toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418. Stop. Maybe have your question. Yes. I'm calling from Minneapolis while listening to (00:24:17) Swim and speak about their experiences. I found myself thinking about what it might be like to be a child abused in a family and have a parent or parents come home and say that we are making a change of life and that we can't help what has happened before but we want you to know that it's going to stop what what what are the various ways children have responded to parents changes like this and does the group the PA group provide resources for children, so that families can put themselves back together. And is it true that they can be put back together largely not hang up now. (00:24:53) Thanks. Well, definitely. Yes, children families can be put back together. It does realistically take a lot of work though a lot of commitment to the fact that you're going to change the behavior of the abusive behavior in because it isn't just if one parent is primarily doing the abuse, then the other parent even though they're not actively involved that they're a passive abuser and they're still responsible for that their role in that and so it takes a lot of work to decide that you're going to you're going to change the family system. The other part of the question was about the kids. How did the kids respond the children react usually they act out worse at the very beginning when you come home and you say well I'm we're going to you know, we're going to do something different here or the first step when I came into PA was that I began to say, I'm sorry and before I never had the courage to do that because I was afraid wife that will what's the use of saying I'm sorry, if I'm no I'm going to do the abusive thing again. So the first thing I started doing was after something abusive had happened. I would go to my child and say I'm sorry it wasn't your fault. Mommy was angry and I didn't I didn't behave well I had bad behavior. And so the child usually reacts they don't understand what's going on there very insecure about the new behavior that you're showing and they're used to getting their needs met by acting out in the negative way. So they're used to getting your attention by the abusive behavior that you were inflicting on them before whether it was verbal abuse physical abuse or just ignoring them. That's that was their security so they are scared and so a lot of times they act out to begin with And you have to do a lot of reassuring is there some danger in bending over backwards too far? In other words, you have been too strict a disciplinarian. You really hit the roof too many times when the toys haven't been picked up or whatever the case might be. So all of a sudden everything anything goes and the kid kind of takes over. Is that a danger? Oh definitely, but I think that along with PA there's a lot of educating as far as parenting skills. When I came into PA. I began to read literature on parenting the sponsors of the group. Let me know that there were classes being available in the Twin Cities area on parenting skills. So I learn Alternatives and so there is the danger of bending over backwards, but I think that you begin you'll earn a balance Jocelyn a quick comment then another call one of the things about PA does provide resources for children connected to every PA group that the parents are is a children's program and Children's programs work differently, but they all provide feedback for parents about disciplining children with specific behavior problems and provide another form of discipline for the children and the children all come and they love it and they know that that's they're involved in the process of change that the family is going through. It's not just something the parents doing the children participate in that another listener question. Go ahead please you're on the air. (00:28:15) Yes. I'm calling from Plymouth and I have a couple of questions one is related to our my awareness of silence is used as a form of abuse perhaps--and neglect and if they see that as a as a problem and I'd like to know about exactly what happens at a parents Anonymous meeting. Is it based on the 12 Steps of AA or Al-Anon and I'm concerned about confidentiality. (00:28:48) Silence has neglect who wants to take that one silence is definitely a form of abuse. That was one of the things that went on the most for me as a child my father when he was angry, he would ignore me for days other than you know, the the verbal communication that had to take place between us so silence I think is a very very definite form of abuse. It's emotional abuse and I think those kind of scars last longer sometimes than the physical abuse or the verbal abuse. All right. Now what happens at a parents Anonymous meeting and what are the techniques used? Well the confidentiality that's you wouldn't have to worry about it. They were that's one of the ground rules we go over every time we started meeting is that it is confidential. The only thing you have to worry about is that if you're still a beautiful Your child and then the group would confront you with that fact, and we would ask you to report yourself or we would collectively, you know, as a group report you we don't Harbor child abusers there. But what you say in group is confidential we wouldn't go behind someone's back and report them that we would first say we see this problem. And in that it's not stopping. Let's say if you were repeatedly physically abusing your child, which is with something like that would be if it was life threatening to your child. Then we would ask you to report yourself and give you all the support you needed in order to do that, but you wouldn't have to worry about if you came and said well, you know last night I pushed my kid down the stairs that wouldn't be repeated. Does it follow the 12 steps of Alcoholics knows? No, I'm also involved in a a and It isn't the program is anything like the 12-step program of a query function. The way that that PA function is that we the parent has a safe place to express its needs to break out of the isolation and to begin to deal with the shame that they grew up with in the shame. They're experiencing with their abuse cycle with their child and to stop that and to teach the parent that they are worth and they are cared about and they can do something different. All right Jocelyn atopy a group. There's each group has a sponsor in the sponsor is a professional Human Services worker whose role is to help the group process along in his passive away as possible and give the responsibility for how the group functions to the chairperson of the group who is a parent who has been taught some group process skills and who becomes the model for the The group the other parents in the group of positive Authority and positive change that chairperson is usually somebody who has a good handle on their abuse and is progressing real well in terms of stopping it. So what actually happens is that the parents take control of the group and they facilitate the group they lead the group and they provide the support to each other. The sponsor is there to make sure that there is reporting when it needs to happen and to make sure that the group process isn't going to hurt anybody reporting you're talking about to the police in the skies, right? And how large is it typical group usually not more than 10 people and often 45 will show up at any given meeting 24 minutes before one Jocelyn Tilson is with us and Gail Jocelyn is the director of parents Anonymous in the Twin Cities. And Gail is one of the members of the chapter 2276 thousand we still have a couple of lines open in the Minneapolis st. Paul area and in other parts of the state X5 29700 is our toll-free number. Here's another listener with a question. Go ahead please. (00:32:54) Yes. I'm calling from Minneapolis and comment first that you've covered a lot of issues and I'm supporting this program. I was in PA with my wife for about six months and we left feeling that we had reached a point where we could handle our own Affairs. I'd like you to touch on that part of it that the PA were I agree. It can be a lifelong process of change and I agree more with that since I have now gone through a divorce. That there is a point where you can handle your own Affairs. I think the unissued that I haven't heard is really an honesty of you know, where you are and what you're doing. And once you reach that point, it's some then you can look at this more self-examination this able to take place. (00:33:54) Okay other words, I think our caller is saying that for him it wasn't necessarily a lifelong process and observation Jocelyn. I think that what I've heard from PA parents is that that there is a point at which you leave the group and you decide to that you've gotten as much help as you need and and things go pretty. Well a lot of parents say that it's it's comforting to know that they can go back if they need it and that they don't know that they're going to and some parents don't go back. They find that that they're you know, they have learned the skills to identify how to stop abusing our caller was in the group for six months. I think Dale you said you've been in for a year and a half what are the ranges of time periods up to four five six years. Some people stay involved. The 18 months has been determined by a national study to be the optimum length of time that about 18 months parents have should have a pretty good grasp on it parents who come Longer come because they like it and they find it real personally fulfilling they have a usually stopped the abuse long before that. But but it's very supportive environment. It's a it's an incredible trusting place. All right, here's another listener with a question. Go ahead, please. Hi, you're on the air. Go ahead. We're waiting for your (00:35:23) question. Yeah, my name is I'm calling from Minneapolis sir. I am a 60 year old man. And the reason why I'm calling because I was abused when I was a child and because by my father and so the statements you need to me, you're nothing but a retina bloodsucker nobody's going to hire you at all. And then the far I didn't do enough work for him. He would give me a piece of old potato and a glass of water in a hard. Some bread now sir. I I have tried very hard to forgive him and it's got to be sold at I am very sensitive towards the people. In fact, I do a lot of volunteer work now a long as I'm a retired man at the Northwestern Hospital and this particular afternoon. I worked extra hours. I would go there on Sunday and bring recorded music along or are with me and I thought that my very close friend who I think a lot of mrs. Mason would say something and she didn't and I felt to myself that I was that I was hurt. Maybe he's right. Maybe I'm no Gordon. I'm just a rat in a (00:36:55) bloodsucker. Thank you for your call. Obviously. This gentleman is still suffering. Some of the effects isn't a of Of his own childhood. That's right. Yeah. I think that that that's that's the result of being abused as a child affects the whole way you live every minute of your life. And that's what p8 that's why I believe so much in PA because it gives people the opportunity to learn something different that can affect the rest of their lives not only their lives but their children's lives and then their children's lives because it does go on from generation to generation. Okay. It's what about 21 before the are here's another listener. Go ahead, (00:37:33) please. Hi. I'm from Minneapolis and I have practiced Pediatrics for 24 years. I'm a father of three children and our grandfather of one and in all those years. I have never ever Seen a single solitary justification for laying on of hands on kids. There is no rationale and I'm totally distinctly diametrically opposed to the comment by one of your listeners as well as perhaps the moderator condoning even in disciplinary situations the use of this particular technique God knows we have others much more saying much more rational approaches to this and I'd like you to comment on that. Thank you (00:38:27) Nora Jocelyn. I think personally I agree with you a hundred percent that there is no justification that any time I were to lay a hand on my child that I feel like that that is inappropriate and wrong. I know that there are lots and lots of people in this country in this Society who do not believe that a spanking to a child is wrong 90% of people in In cultures spank their children as normal forms of discipline. It is not socially it is not considered wrong. There are people like this doctor and myself and and many other people who believe that it's always wrong but that is not generally the tone in our society that it is wrong spanking slapping the hand of a two year old who's reaching to touch. The China is considered right? Not everybody agrees with that but and and I don't slap the hand of my two-year-old, but I know that there are people who would think that I was wrong not to and that those people are not necessarily abusing their kids. I think that was the point you're trying to make is that there's a wide range of what is considered acceptable disciplinary behavior, and it's not necessarily abuse. Okay, another listener with a question. Go ahead, please. (00:39:44) Hello. I'm calling just to say a couple of things. Number one. I just want to say that I think that the people Are involved with parents Anonymous ought to be supported for their efforts in trying to seek assistance for themselves and their families and I guess the second thing I would just like to ask about is with the comments about the fact that most abusive parents are kind of isolated and feel they can't reach out. How do people who are in this situation learn about PA and is or is it in an intervention situations? They with court services or something of that nature. I'll hang up and listen to your answer. Thank you. (00:40:21) Yeah, unfortunately often times it is after the fact after the act of abuse and what that the parent is already involved in the court system that they get help. I'm working to make it so that parents can get the help before they abuse their children to have more preventative programs available for parents who feel they're in the high-risk sector that that are you know that they grew up maybe in an abusive home and that they can See some of those qualities in themselves and to get the help they need before they get stuck in the cycle because that's what really keeps apparent isolated is the fact that once they've done it then they deny it and then they feel guilty and then they can't live with the guilt and they get angry and then they do it again and so on and so on and so on. Okay here we have another listener with a question for Gail and for Joseline Tilson. Go ahead (00:41:19) please. Even if they have kids will they be abusive to their children? Also, (00:41:47) I think that if if you if you know that there's a potential for you to be abusive and you reach out and you get some help that the answer is no all those people will not be abusive to their children left alone left isolated left without getting information. The chances are very great that those people will be abusive to their own children. I would like to add to that and say that in my family I have other sisters and brothers and although my parents treated them the same way. They treated me, although maybe not they weren't as my parents were chemically dependent. So maybe their disease had not progressed to that point when I was growing up because they're older than I am but that all children react differently to the abuse that is inflicted on them. Some children have more survival skills and their the way they're made up genetically their character Bill makeup is they React to it differently so that the way that they're going to take on those scars or act that out in their later life may be different than another parent. So I think that's an important thing to remember when you're saying well that if you grew up in an abusive home that when you start parenting that you're going to be abusive, it might not come out that way it may come out in another area of your life. But that in one way or the other I think you are affected by it. Another caller is waiting with a question. Hi, you're on the air. (00:43:11) Hi. I've worked with children for about the last ten years. And one thing that I found with special with with certain kids whose parents seem to have been abused is that rather than that? They would abuse the child physically, they would go to The Other Extreme and that really gives a child any guidelines at all and I worked with kids who, you know, their real mean to other kids. The kids are kicking biting way past an age when that, you know should be happening. I was just wondering if you Comment on it how parents sometimes when they come from that type of background, you know in a reaction just go to the Other Extreme and don't try to teach the kid any the child and he sort of boundaries or discipline them at all and how that can be just as abusive for the child, especially in a school situation or when you're out with friends (00:43:58) Jocelyn. I think that that there is some of that and usually the parents who are like that are parents who are desperately trying to hang on to some control and that they know that if they interfere with their child, they'll lose control so they make take the route of not interfering it comes from the same base of Shame and the same feeling out of control that parents who are in fact hitting their kids and that parents who need to you know, discipline their kids in the sense of teaching their kids the right things to do. And not always punishing them for doing things wrong that always well, I guess the difference between punishment and abuse is is that punishing is saying this is what you did wrong. You need to learn about that and and discipline and the difference between punishment discipline discipline is saying this is what you need to do right now. How can we teach you how to do that? Those parents who are real over permissive are afraid of crossing the boundaries and and need to get some help in order to learn some other things to do because it doesn't do the kidney service either does it? No, it doesn't. All right. Here's another listener with a question. Go ahead, (00:45:08) please. Yes. I'm calling to Minneapolis. And I'm calling about a question about homes, which wouldn't necessarily be labeled abusive Gail mentioned putting parents in a sort of a god-like position. And I think maybe a lot of us have done that and this imposes a lot of guilt on kids wouldn't it be appropriate for us as parents? Sometimes they use a disclaimer and say to the children. Well, I'm not coping well or there's lots of day left and there's nothing left of me and it's not you it's me and wouldn't children be relieved of a lot of guilty if we would take that position. I don't think it would lessen our position with the children. Maybe it would really make it better if we were Frank and admitted to them that we were sometimes at fault answer. (00:45:51) Well, I mentioned this before that that's one of the first things I did in order to stop the abuse in my household was to begin to say I'm sorry when I did do something and to to accept my own feelings to accept the fact that I am human and to allow myself my anger to not deny. To say I'm angry right now. It's my anger and I own it, you know, and maybe I would like you I've done this to my child before it said please go away right now. I need my space. I'm angry right now and I need to deal with that anger and it's not your fault, but I just need to be alone right now. So please leave the room and give me 10 15 minutes to be alone. And I think that's a very excellent point that you brought up because it allows me If you deny your anger it's not going to go away. It's still going to be there. You need to accept it and deal with it in a healthy way rather than stuffing it and then ending up like a pressure cooker losing it and then ending up doing something you're sorry for afterwards. It's 12 minutes before one o'clock more listeners with questions. Go ahead, please you're (00:46:58) next. Your gifts are just terrific. I started an interest in what you folks are concerned with back in the 30s as a school teacher and then I progress St. And social work and today I can see that the individuals who have this problem of viciousness or hatred or unkindness toward other people whether they are parents or whether they are not parents most of them. I have found out in the last 50 years when I have spoken with any people involved in those kinds of activities, they will rationalize in justify their viciousness hatred Whatever by pointing to either other figures of Authority or by pointing to institutions in our culture, which do support viciousness and heater and this then does seem to Wait the kinds of behavior that both of you have so beautifully Illustrated. Now, I think today that a great help can be extended to those people who come to you for help. If you can make those connections in addition to the find things that you already do. If you can connect up to those people that their behavior is in their minds being in many cases justified by what they see on television what they read in the newspapers and what they hear in many cases from authority figures. For example, I have Channel 2 on right now and only 10 minutes ago a very prominent journalist made some comments about the fact that Sees nothing wrong with the cutting off of the school lunch program for two and a half million children in the last three years, (00:49:26) sir. Thank you for your call. I think we'll let our guests comment then move on to some other listeners who are waiting. Awesome. I think that your comment about Authority is really really true and that one of the things parents Natomas has recognized is that parents generally have a very poor view of authority of scared to death of authority and also feeling desperate about having some Authority as a parent and that comes from the fear of it that one of the things the model of the PA group with the chairperson and the sponsor really works on is people's fear of authority and people's taking Authority in a positive way and in an appropriate way and making some good decisions about that and really Matt whole procedure and process within our lives. Okay, seven minutes before one another listener is waiting. Hi, you're on the (00:50:19) air. Yes. I guess that I'm joining the pediatrician and social worker who have called in. I'm a registered nurse and I'm very concerned with the way a couple of things have come across on this program to innocence give people permission to continue to hit their children. I in Most states. It is illegal to hit your child with any kind of an instrument including a belt and there's no question in my mind that this is very wrong and very damaging and I'm coming from this from a very personal experience. My first husband wasn't as a practicing physician and he was abused by his mother. However, no one would have ever identified the abuse because it was always in the form of spanking it was frequent. It was malicious. It was done with hands it was Sticks it was done with spoons. It was done with switches and it simply fit into the discipline patterns that are acceptable in this culture and incidentally in fundamentalist religious cultures as well. And I'm concerned about the way that is come across in this program as being an okay thing this man paid with for his experience with his mom by losing his entire family of being unable to relate to other individuals and any kind of a caring or friendship kind of--can kind of way, even though he's an accomplished professional his his wife and child ended up leaving him because he attempted to murder them and was out of control many many times in spite of ten years of the most excellent kinds of counseling. (00:52:10) Okay spank Comment number five Gail I think wants to take that. First of all, I maybe I heard your question wrong but PA what PA is trying to do is help parents who who aren't happy with their behavior. They want to change it and we don't recommend one thing or another in group. We don't say well, well, you know, you should hit your child. We try to help the parent to find a way a healthy way for them to feel good about themselves and feel good about changing their child's behavior and to teach their children things and with their parenting skills. Unfortunately, PA doesn't have influence over what is acceptable as the as our society. We I agree with you our society does condone a lot of spanking and corporal punishment and I don't I'm not personally an agreement with that I that is not an option for me physical punishment with my children is not something I don't think I'll ever be able to do and feel good about but the fact is that we are free country and that it's I think what you're talking about is more political issue than an issue that has to do with PA or or abuse because we have no control over that that's a personal issue and something that you that people need to make themselves about what they want to do and how they want to teach and raise their children Jocelyn sounds like in this case spanking was great too far. Yeah. It sounds like it was and PAs definition of physical abuse says that any physical contact with the child that is a means of the parent venting their anger is abuse and the and parents must in order to participate in PA groups must say I will not abuse my children anymore. And so all of the parents who are in the PA groups are stopping all forms of spanking and verbal and emotional kinds of abuse. Time for a few more calls. Go ahead, please you are (00:54:17) next to get on I think your guests have been fantastic also, and I think they're trying to say is specially Gail is that we have to do more preventative things and I think jail is a beautiful example of how she is taking care of herself. She's going places doing things but I think we as parents and in the Human Services can do more by talking with parents and don't putting up ourselves as super parents ourselves, but saying that sometimes parenting is hard, but sometimes it's so beautiful and asking them if there's anything they'd ever like to talk about and then leaving room open for talking. Thank you. (00:54:55) Okay. I think that I really enjoyed your comment. It's so important for parents for parents who feel that that they maybe they're not at the stage where it's out of control and so they haven't taken a look at their parenting skills, but being able to have the climate to be able to Talk about how you feel about your child and how you feel about parenting. I think that is so important because then it leaves the parent a chance to be open-minded and to talk about and to get some feedback about something that feelings that they may have that they haven't been willing to look at before that that might be able to help them from getting stuck in the into a cycle of abuse or or parenting skills or that aren't parent types of parenting that aren't appropriate or healthy. Okay. We have one call left. We're almost at the end of the hour worked out very well. Go ahead please your comment. (00:55:54) I'm calling for Rochester. I have a very brief question on that is I just married a young lady who came from an abusive home where she was abused emotionally and two minor extent physically and also verbally my question is what can I do as a spouse? Does PA have some help for it? House has ordered for it those who are not parents yet. And in a related question is would it be wise seen as we've only been married about two months to to put off for time having children? And what would your comments be in that regard? Johnson what do you think? (00:56:32) Excuse me? I think that there are spouses who do come to parents anonymous groups. There are no people who don't have children who come there are some organizations around in different communities that are helping parents make decisions about whether or not to have children and helping first-time parents with the the problems of it's really really focused at prevention meld is one of them and I know that they're all over the state and there's a lot of different kinds of organizations, but I would suggest getting some help to figure out that decision out and too taking it seriously as a problem one final question. Is there a telephone number people can call during the week if they want more information about parents Anonymous in the Twin Cities? Yeah, the parents Anonymous of Minnesota phone number is two nine one eight 5452918 Five for five. Okay, and that is not the Christ a crisis line for any crisis calls for parents who are concerned about wanting some to do something right now. They need to call their local communities Crisis Line. Okay. Very good. Thank you both for coming in Jocelyn Tilson who runs parents Anonymous in the Twin Cities and Gail a member of the Twin Cities chapter of that National Organization. Thanks to all of you who called as well the engineer for the broadcast today was rat Olson on a think Charlie Bentley for answering the phones weekend is made possible by economics laboratory products and services for household institutional and Industrial Cleaning worldwide. This is Bob Potter. Now the forecast for the Minneapolis st. Paul area calls for partly cloudy skies windy conditions today with a high in the upper 40s, 25 to 45 mile an hour winds are forecast this afternoon, but the wind should begin to diminish this evening tonight. It will be clear and cool the law in the middle 30s, then tomorrow cloudy once again and a chance of showers in the afternoon. This is ksjn in Minneapolis. And st. Paul the news and information service of Minnesota Public Radio the time now one o'clock