I think by way of introducing this topic very difficult topic. It would be safe to say that murder would be an easy act to quantify and punish that would be the Assumption of many people. I think but anyone who has viewed a couple of murder trials or who is Retta counts of murder will tell you that a few acts of murder fit neatly into the category of premeditated murder or manslaughter or whatever label our legal system devices, perhaps a couple of questions illustrate. The murkiness of defining murder wear for example is the line between murder and self-defense or put another way under what conditions can homicide be justified or viewed with understanding Well author and Joan says that before those questions can be answered. We must understand something about this country's legal system Jones is the author of the book women who kill and she points out that our legal system is one that is devised by an elite of white males for them.And before we ask her about that point, I want to welcome to Minnesota public radio's Maryland. Keebler was joined us in the Twin Cities to put a few questions to Anne and just a few minutes. We'll be giving out some telephone numbers that you can call after a while to ask your questions of and Jones. I guess. That's the first point. I want to get to Ann is this issue of our legal system in the fact that two or what you believe is a legal system devised by an elite of white males really? Can you tell us the importance of that in how it affect how women are treated in our legal system and are treated according to the the whims and the myths that men hold about them the legal system that we have is you know comes down to us from English common law with our own additions and deletions, but it was fashioned originally by men and it has been administered and enforced primarily by white men are all the way through our history.So just as the law as all of us know discriminates against ethnic minorities, so there's a kind of built-in racism to the law. So it discriminates against women with the built-in sexism. Now that has meant at times in our history that women have been treated better than we should have been when man that went by what they called chivalry and that felt it their duty to protect ladies patricide was thought to be Unthinkable. For example, yes. Yes, if a nice girl like Lizzie Borden for example could kill her papa at what was to stop other young ladies from doing the same thing. So when in the 19th century when men were trying to protect women from a lot of things such as education and jobs and equal pay they also had to protect us from the punishments of the criminal law, but that has gone back and forth and today.Women are much more likely to serve stiffer sentences than men for the same offense is so today that the law is harder on women than it should be. I can't remember if it was a special you had in your book or from some other source, but it was something to the effect. Well, if women want equal treatment in all areas were certainly going to give it to them, especially in the area of Corrections. And that leads me to the next when I wanted to ask you about which is the connection that some people try to make between feminism and Rising crime rate among women. I guess. We've probably all heard folks who argue that the feminist movement has caused an increase in crimes among women and that you speak to that rather early on in your book and I'm going to give us the details of why you think there is no link. It's hard to find a social ill these days that isn't attributed to of feminism when I started writing this book about 5 or 6 years ago.The notion was very popular at the time that women's Liberation was going to leave to widespread murder and Mayhem on the part of women. This notion was popularized by a woman criminologist who called women's who called and Rising crime wave among women the Shady Side of women's Liberation. She arrived at the the notion that there was a great crime wave on the part of women by manipulating statistics in some funny ways. Actually if you look at FBI figures collected Nationwide the rate of Crimes by women is increasing no more rapidly than the rate of Crimes by men except in certain property crimes and particularly petty larceny things like that crimes that are obviously crimes of hard times when women can't make ends meet and support their kids.But interesting ly enough, what I found is that this scare about the increased crimes of women attending feminism has record in our history about every 50 years. In other words, every time women get uppity somebody usually a criminologist comes along and says if women alter their social position in any way, if you give them the vote if you never lies divorce laws, if you pass the era women are going to commit murder and various other crimes in and out in in history, but the scare has been present at each. In history that you refer to a couple of times now that Marilyn hiebler Falls up on a couple of points are around this emission has joined us in the Twin Cities to ask you a few questions. I wanted to give a bit more background on and Jones before week about the telephone.Numbers that pokes can call to ask questions and lives in New York City and I'm reading now from the dust jacket of the book. I can be excused because I just met her I think about 20 minutes ago. It's not as though we've had a long-term friendship you hold a doctorate in American literature and intellectual history from the University of Wisconsin. Then she has taught at City College of New York and served as coordinator of women's studies at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst all along. I've been trying to remember the anecdote that you relate in the book about why you decided to write this book in the only part I can remember is that you were sitting in a class and women's literature course at the University of Massachusetts at the time and as you know, many of the books by and about American women and with the insanity or the suicide of the heroin, that's a very very depressing role model for young women and one student asked me one day if there wasn't anything a woman could do with her life in America besides kill yourself.Just in an effort to lighten the mood I said, well I suppose you could kill someone else and then I realized that of course, that's true and that very often homicide and suicide are psychological alternatives to each other and as we bring up girls and boys in this country, it's the boys who are trained to act out their aggression and who are far more likely to turn to homicide women are trained to internalize their aggression to take it out on ourselves by going crazy or by committing suicide. So the woman who commits an act of homicide is very extraordinary indeed only about 15% of homicides are committed by women.And most of those are committed in self-defense, you've already raised several interesting points that I'd like to go back to the very beginning till the title of the book when I saw a book named women who kill I wasn't quite sure how to react and I was shocked and it made me a bit nervous. I've noticed as it lays on my desk that people who come by look at it occasionally nervously laugh ask about it. It really draws attention. You think it makes you nervous and upset us. So I think because I said, well as we were just saying women are not supposed to do this women are the nurturers of life, right? We give life. We don't take it so that when a woman commits an act of homicide that act seems to be not just a crime against the person she is killed or a crime against the state but even a crime against nature it flies in the face of everything we've beenTalk to believe about what women are and how women should behave so of course, it's it's very upsetting to us to think about women killing. I picked this title because I thought that women who kill was the most simple and objective possible description of the contents of the book but people say to me over and over it so Sensational, it's so scary not the words it is as you correctly said the idea that scary. Okay, we're going to get the list of the chance to call here in just a minute. But first of all, I'd like to ask it's your research. It's your book. It's very comprehensive. Could you tell us that and say three or four sentences who women kill and why they kill women almost always kill their intimate. We kill our husbands are lovers are children in in that order and I think that that's a measure of the more constricted lives that women lead. When we are pushed to the point of committing homicide. Which as I said is it is an extraordinary act fee.Any woman, it usually takes place within that very confined Circle where most of us lead our lives and very often as I said before in self-defense or in response to an attack. For example today. Most women who commit homicide are doing so as battered wives retaliating against their assailants are simply defending themselves as best. They can in in an attack situation in some states. No studies are coming out of the prisons that show that as many as 80 or 90% of the women in prison for homicide. Maybe women who killed their batters in what the women describe the self-defense situations yet. They're serving terms for murder.We're ready for Alyssa's calls now. If you'd like to call and ask Ann Jones author of women who kill a question in the Twin Cities, you can call 227-6000, or you can call our toll-free number one 800-652-9700 those numbers again in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand or the toll-free number one 800-652-9700. And while we're waiting for our first caller you touched on the subject before that. I believe is a fairly widespread belief right now that women get off more lenient in terms of the law. And in your book, you mentioned several times throughout history where that's gone back and forth a currently. What kind of a situation are we in? Currently? I think we're in a backlash. Against feminism against the women's movement and that backlash takes many different forms, but one of them is this belief that we cited before that women are turning more and more to crime and that therefore they must be punished more severely so we find women today much more likely to be arrested prosecuted convicted and given long sentences than they were before. It's interesting that here in Minnesota there there seem to be a widespread belief that women indeed were treated very leniently by the criminal justice system, but when the researchers went to work to gather the data, For the sentencing guidelines commission. They discovered that in fact that wasn't true at all. I might just quote from us Dept of Corrections report the guidelines commission discovered that proportionately more women go to prison for Less severe crimes than males and conversely proportionately fewer man guilty of serious crimes go to prison than female another with the woman is much more likely to get sentence for something that a man wouldn't be sentenced for a simple little property crime that the man wouldn't go to jail for and on the other hand when very serious offenses such as homicides are committed. The woman is again much more likely to serve a stiffer sentence. The man is more likely to be let off in the case of battering and the women who kill in response to battering four examples because the law looks at that attack and counter attack from the point of view of the So-called reasonable man, and the standard is what would be applied in a fight between two men a woman who picks up a weapon to defend herself against her husband usually cannot be tried on the basis of self-defense. She is likely to be tried and convicted of murder on the other hand the man who beats up his wife and kills her in the process Which is far more often. The result of these incidents is likely to be seen as in a way Justified. He may be tried only for manslaughter because there is still this widespread belief that the man has a right to beat his wife. So for example of an Indiana prosecutor refusing to indict for murder a man who had beaten and kicked his wife to death in the presence of witnesses said, well, he didn't mean to kill her. He just meant to give her a good thumping. And we see that happening over and over again so that the man maybe in those circumstances indicted for manslaughter and served a couple of years and be out again, and that's the inconsistency in the law, right? Okay. I believe we have a caller on the line now, but afternoon you're on the year of your question, please. But I've been noticing. With the effectual Freedom so-called a lot of young girls are having babies and in such desperate Straits that it does happen. Occasionally that she does a terrible thing of abandoning that I have yet to see a weird of empathy for the terrible situation. She must have found herself and never seen the question. Did she know was there a man that could have been helping her and wouldn't and I just think there's no feeling at all for these poor kids course. It's a terrible thing to do but we we forgive other crimes but they have I have to agree with you and I certainly do feel that sort of empathy towards the young women in these situations again, there are ways in which those young women can be helped by dissemination of birth control information and and certainly other ways of reaching them. But so often we let People get into these situations we refuse to help them and then when they find themselves in a bad situation, we condemn them for the actions that they feel compelled to take might just draw the parallel here again was battered women who are completely abandoned by the legal system. Nobody comes to their aid and the police won't help them prosecutors won't help them when they finally are pushed to the point of Defending themselves and kill their assailants. Then we crack down for Law and Order and then the moralist Russian and say this is a terrible thing you've done you must go to jail. Thank you for your call. And I believe we have another caller waiting. Good afternoon. You're on the air. What did you question place? I was sent by the statistics that you were quoting about. The number of women in prisons in the resources. In that area and I was wondering if anything has been is that you know of anything going on retroactive look at those cases and I'm guessing that since what you talked about in terms of just the cases that are coming into court now and the kind of grim perspectives that are still held that maybe that's not happening. But do you know of something that took? Well, there's nothing across the boards. Of course, every one of these cases must be looked at on its individual Merit and once women have been convicted in these ways, then they fall back on the standard appeals procedures or applications for clemency or parole. It varies from state-to-state depending upon The particular laws they fall under but what I have observed in traveling around the country and visiting a great many prisons and visiting women who have received the sentences is that many of them have simply been abandoned in the prisons. They don't have the resources. They don't have people on the outside helping them because the typical situation of of a battered woman is that she has been isolated. She has no friends. She has been cut off from her family. So many of these women have have no hope whatsoever and although we have heard a great deal in recent years about the cases of a few battered women who killed their husbands in self-defense and then were acquitted those cases are very very rare. And in fact women are being sentenced all the time for long terms for this particular kind of killing. I don't I don't see any simple way out of this. Thank you for your call. We're talking now with the author and Jones who wrote the book women who kill in her books rate of some very provocative some issues that she's addressing today. If you'd like to talk with an Jones, you can call her in the Twin Cities at 227-6014. Call our toll-free number one 800-652-9700 in the Twin Cities. It's 227-6012 free. Number one 800-652-9700. And I believe you have another caller on the line. Good afternoon. You're on the air may we have your question place going from Minneapolis and I'd like to make a comment first. I find the crime of battering is extremely important and frightened phenomena at the same time. I find the Revenge killings to counter that kind of behavior equally important and frightening and I was wondering what kind of a Psychological profile occurs that allows people to kill weather be in response to previous attacks or in the case of those women who do not kill as a result of battering of self-defense. What kind of a psychological profile goes into the makeup? I think it's less of a particular psychological element then it is a particular set of circumstances. Let me just say that you would you seem to assume in the way you phrased your question that the women who kill their batteries are acting in Revenge and I must point out that most of them seem not to be acting in Revenge, but I think it's the Revenge that we are afraid of many of them killed simply by accident a woman is being beaten and say as in a recent case I examined in Georgia she happen to have a paring knife in your hand because she was making salad her husband who was drunk and swinging at her slipped and fell against the knife. And because there was inadequate medical service in this world Community. It was three hours before he was in the hospital. He died in what most of us would regard as pretty much accidental circumstances or series of bad accidents or unlucky chances yet. The other woman who was holding that knife is now serving a life sentence. That's a fairly common story. So many of these killings are not Revenge killing but simply the result of accident or a desperate set of circumstances most battered women. Do I leave the men who are battering them? It takes some longer that is some women longer than others to get away. It may take some women years to get away. But what commonly happens then in the cases that wind up in homicide is that the husband will not let the woman go and he comes after her and brings her back off at gunpoint or by threatening her life threatening the life. The children or her parents or friend so that the woman becomes almost a literal hostage and when she can get no Aid then from law enforcement and when she has exhausted every possibility that she can see it's at that point that she's likely to act in her own defense because she literally can find no other way out know what that says to me is that that is a preventable homicide if we went to that woman's Aid if we insisted that the police arrest those assailants if we insisted that that crime of battery be prosecuted as the felony it is and that those men served prison terms if necessary for that crime, we could prevent that homicide and we could also prevent the far more frequent instance in which the Man simply beats the woman to death. I believe we have several other colors waiting on the line now. Good afternoon. You're on the air. May we have your question, please? Books with male and female inmates and I noticed that there is a real difference in the attitude of the prison officials towards men than they have and I'd like you to comment on this the attitude I saw them having towards meant was that essentially they're looking for them to respond with something like I did the crime cuz I have to do the time that is I did something wrong and I have to pay for it the response that they were looking they weren't looking for any response from when they had a view toward the views towards women what women were mad then they ended up in a mental health system or that women were bad children and they had to be taught a lesson and the way they talked to him this last one was by making the punishment exceed the crime and phone both senses. They didn't treat women as responsible adults who did something wrong and had to pay for it. They treated them either as mad with For as children and I was wondering whether you thought this is the way women are treated in the private prison system. Yes, I think it does and I think you've described the situation very very well. Women are often treated like children in and out of prison. So, of course when they're in prison the prison which is supposed to shape them up for their release into the outside world treats them as they will be treated when they get out. It's interesting also that women who have committed crimes and particularly women who have committed homicide have been regarded as insane throughout history. And this again is the One Plea on which a battered woman might escape the the charge of murder these days is if she pleads temporary insanity because we would rather's acknowledge that a woman is crazy to kill a man. And that the fault that's lies with her. Then we would be willing to acknowledge that her act might have been Justified under the circumstances and indeed no more than any reasonable man, or woman might have done under those circumstances. I'd like to take a chance here. If I could to ask you to just comment on the most recent trial I guess or widely publicized trial of Gene Harris. You had some interesting perspective on that the other day when we talked what where does that fit into this whole saying what did that teacher has the Gene Harris cases an interesting one, I've written and additional chapter about that case for the paperback edition of women who kill which will be coming out in the fall. I think that the hair is case is designed to reassure us all and to help assuage some of our anxiety that we feel in the wake of all these killings of batterers by the battered women the trials that we've heard so much about in recent years are those kinds of cases where the woman kills out of fear, or as a previous caller said a parent revenge in any case, it's clear. She doesn't like that guy. So that makes us all very nervous. And especially when we believe someone mistakenly that women are doing this all the time murdering man all the times open season on husband's. So what the hell is case was designed to teach us is that no matter how independent a woman becomes no matter how educated she is no matter what a good job. She has or how much Prestige or Independence she cannot get along without the man she loves and she will indeed be driven Crazy by her her jealous passion for him and then is not responsible for her actions it fits in with all our old stereotypes about why women kill in fact that kind of jealousy killing is a very rare kind of killing for a woman to commit but we're led to believe that that's standard procedure for even the most liberated women these days do we have a case of society hearing what they want to hear we certainly do. Okay, we have several callers now waiting to talk with you, but afternoon, you're on the air. May we have your question, please? When I first heard about this is how I want things I thought about was that a couple of Fascination temps in prison for women. And I was wondering if they had any relation to what you were talking about it. It's President Ford was maybe a symbol of men in their lives and I'm taking it out on here. But what about those would-be assassins in women who kill largely because they missed so they weren't really women who committed homicide and and didn't fall into the book. I think that they are very rare that the woman terrorists who kills or attempts to kill for political reasons is rare in any. Although there have always been some who did it. I didn't look into those particular cases because I was concerned to look at what seemed to be the typical patterns of homicide in any. And they they're so unusual that I didn't look at them. The usual woman who killed is not a woman who holds political convictions Not a woman who favors feminism or women's Liberation in any way most women who commit homicide are women who are the most traditional feminine and try very hard to fit into that traditional stereotyped female role. They try to be good little wives and mothers until they just can't take it anymore. So they are the least likely types to wind up his political terrorists and thank you for your call. Let's go on to the next caller now good afternoon your on the year and your question, please I listening. I found your comments insightful and gripping but unfortunately not real shocking. I think that's how it's become callous in our society to this. What disturbs me though is the parallel you drive with feminism Justin, of course, you're talking about women who kill a lot of murders could probably be drawn to economic reasons sexual hang-up. And that tell me your comments, please on some of the underlying or maybe even a greater sickness that would allow this to happen that would even allow women to seek Liberation with watch let that in Ferris is a Anon Freedom or I need for release right? Let me clarify that I'm not saying that women killed because of feminism. It's it's the least liberated women who are most likely to wind up in these homicidal situations where they kill someone or where he kills them and it is primarily an act of desperation some of the things that contribute to that aren't the sort of myths that we have about what a woman's proper place is as I mentioned the women who wind up in these situations are most likely to subscribe to those old stereotypes that they ought to stay home and and be good. Is Mother's the anything that contributes to keep women dependent upon men contributes to those unliberated situations in which women because of their oppression may be driven to violence. So in other words the fact that we still don't have equal opportunities for education for jobs for good pay and so on for women keep them oppressed and as we move towards greater equality for women and greater liberation of women, we can expect to see some of those conditions that have provoked women to violence in the past disappear. So another words the the greater equality. We have between the Sexes the least likely women are to resort to violence. I'd like to raise another Point here. I believe you address to send the book the fact that women do not kill as often as men has some upsetting implications. Would you care to comment on that. The fact that perhaps if women are less violent by Nature? That's an upsetting thought. Yes, it would mean that we are morally Superior. No man likes to think that anymore although they were willing to go for it in the 19th century. I think that we can't really talk with any Authority about what is our nature anymore because it whatever are given nature is it's been so overlaid by cultural factors that we can't really track it down. So I think it it's interesting to talk about those cultural factors the way that we've been brought up the way that we've been socialized as as it were and certainly the fact that women are so much less likely to resort to violence indicate some things about the way we bring up kids in this society and it would seem to indicate that we ought to bring up man to be more like women, which is also being upset. Right it is well, it seems to be upsetting I think to two men who are deeply convinced that Macho is the only way but I think we see now in an ever-increasing number of men who are profoundly concerned about that Macho image and profoundly concerned about the untenable unbearable levels of violence in our society. And I think we may slowly be coming to the realization men and women alike that we can't stand this anymore and that indeed we are going to have to change those images of masculinity and what what it means to be a man in this Society. It doesn't mean to go around hitting people. We have several colors on the line waiting to talk with you. Good afternoon. You're on the air. May we have your question, please? I was wondering during your research that did you check out. Between minority. It's anything between minorities and women. I mean regarding men and women. I mean, is there a disparity in between in between then? I'll hang will listen to you. Yes. Yes. There is as your question implies. We know that members of minorities are apt to be more stiffly penalized by the criminal justice system, but within any given ethnic minority the women are apt to be even more severely punished. So while there is this building racism, there's also built-in sexism so that the woman who is also a member of an ethnic minority gets it twice. I see we have several other callers. No, good afternoon. You're on the air at what is your question? Please became about being interested in this what other things she's done with her book. She may have written and we have a little bit of that book a few years ago called Uncle Tom's campus, which is about my experiences teaching at a black college in the South. It's a book that attempts to show how a black college may serve to perpetuate racism in our society. I guess I'd I came at that through my interest and involvement in the Civil Rights Movement. I came at this book women who kill through my interest and involvement in feminism. I am interested primarily in underdogs people who get it in the neck. And so I find myself taking the side of students against the college or of ethnic minorities against to the the white elite that runs the country and the side certainly of women against that same white male Elite. Thank you for your good afternoon your on the Army. We have your question, please. you mentioned the fact of crime against a tooth that stuck in my head because I thought Often referred to as a crime against nature apparently if you also mean a crime and I'm wondering about this at do you mean a crime against nature or a crime against social conditioning when you said that this up you do literally made a crime against nature has in some of the strange Falls murders. You don't write something. I didn't know I was trying to suggest that homicide by women is seems to be a crime against what we regard as a woman's nature or we tend to regard women as incapable of this kind of violent act. So in that sense, it seems to be a crime against nature on the other hand because we expect men to be aggressive and indeed Foster and encourage that aggression when a man kills. It's much more understandable to us, and it does not Shock Us in that same way. Thank you for your call. We have several other colors now. We're talking with Arthur and Jones who wrote the book women who kill good afternoon your on the year. What is your question, please she was speaking a lot about the different will her research was done about white male Elite, you know the whole structure here in United States and I was wondering if she did any research and studies of other countries know I've confined myself to the United States in this book. But of course as far as the legal system goes so much of our log came originally from English common law that when we talked about that white male Elite, we're really going centuries back to the original Shapers of of law in England and then on down through the years. And I believe we have another caller. Good afternoon your on the air. What is your question, please the fact that women are Housewives and how their subjugated or whatever in this society that that they are more apt to kill then if they were liberated. Yes. That's what I said. Don't you think that if women are liberated there would tend to take on a more Macho image or they would tend to take on a image where it would be it would be not right for them to kill but it would it wouldn't be surprising us that they would kill so that It would seem more likely because that they would kill because they would take on a whole different type of feeling or something. Okay, what you are voicing sir is the common fear and it's the fear that is fostered by a great many things. You you read I can follow your logic, but what's it was implied in your question is that if a woman is liberated she will begin to act like a man but we are afraid of is that women will become man. I hasten to assure you that no one knows better than women how miserably Macho has failed and Liberation does not mean to most women to try to emulate men. It simply means an expansion of our own opportunities and expansion of Are options to become all that we may be in other words to become fully ourselves to become fully women and all the statistics going all the way back to the beginning of this country bear out the fact that as women have moved towards greater equality. The reasons for their violence have declined their rate of violent crimes has declined and indeed Justin's the last wave of feminism in this country the rate of violent crimes by women has begun to drop again, and I Payson to say it's only 10% at the moment. So where it where a very Peaceable lot. Thank you for for your car. We still have several callers on the line. Let's take the next right now. Good afternoon. You're on the air. May we have your question, please. Yes. I'm calling from the new hope. And I was very interested in what you were saying about 10 minutes ago and about two for half. So there's something to be said for the fact that the competitiveness that we train into male children is something that we we need to stop and then pacifically what I'd like to ask you and I'm sure know there's a theory in sociology that you're going to have so many violent deaths per 10000 population in some of the Scandinavian countries with murder and suicide rate is constantly brings it up here in a while. I'd like to know is that you're saying that the women who murder? They are about 15% of people who commit homicide and also a little bit of our men are also much more likely to commit suicide men are far more likely than women to commit any kind of violence that you can think of against themselves or against other people. So again, I can only reiterate that we we need to think very clearly about how we bring up a little boys and begin to change that if I were a man I'd be very uncomfortable with those rates of violence some of the answers then might lion the socializing process. Yes, very very clearly. I'm from the first moment that we say boys will be boys. We begin to excuse and in fact in Courage enormous levels of aggression from from men. I think it's interesting also that as many men are calling in to talk with you. Today is there are and let's go to the next caller. Good afternoon. You're on the air. May we have your question, please? Mancala I would like comment done now women and capital punishment and in particular if she believes we will ever see a woman in the electric chair and if she knows the anecdote of Alaska hanging in this date if she could relate that to the audience and the Lansky case. Yes and 1859 the one and only woman hanged in in Minnesota hang to prove that Minnesota was on the side of Law & Order. They weren't hanging man who killed their wives at that time. They were sending them to prison for a couple of years or 5 years, but when and Lansky was accused of killing her husband, they decided to make an example out of her. It's one of the classic cases of inequitable Justice in this country as to your question of whether or not we'll ever see a woman in the electric chair you seem to subscribe to an old myth that miss that we have always been more lenient towards women. In fact a great number of women have died in the electric chair in this country many many women have been hanged in this country hundreds and hundreds of them many women are on death row right now. In fact many women. We're burned at the stake in this country a fate that has never befall in a man of because men could not be charged with crimes for which that was the panel takes. So women have fallen to Capital Punishment and they will again if capital punishment is reinstated. I myself am very very vocally opposed to Capital Punishment. I don't believe in violence on any level certainly not Violence by the State against its citizens that raises an interesting point. I I know that after I talked to you for the first time someone asked me if you condone murder are women killing their husbands and quite adamant in your answer. Women read the book called women who kill and claims to be a feminist it a lot of people grow fearful that I'm advocating murder as I'm kind of Final Solution in the war between the sexes. In fact, of course my interest in this book comes out of my profound interest in non-violence and what I hope to do by charting the history of women who committed homicide is to track down some of those sources of violence so that they can be eliminated so that we can get that homicide rate down. I think we have time for one or two more calls, but afternoon, you're on the air. May we have your question, please? Can you refer brother lightheartedly to women's moral superiority? I think I would agree with you on that not too light-hearted like but I was wondering about the matter of social opportunity to commit murder. Since men are obviously at least up till now. I've been asking more active in the so-called outside world that is outside the home with perhaps more opportunities to commit murder and perhaps more seeming reasons to solve the problem that way as opposed to someone living in the home with social opportunity would statistics bear out that murders are just as related to social opportunity as they are two other forms of social conditioning and in the case of the Gene Harris, by the way, it wasn't her defense based on unintentional homicide rather than sanity you do mention. The Gene Harris trial was one that might have well been designed to a switch in the or or perhaps fit into a pattern that we had grown comfortable with was that did I misunderstand your analysis? It's designed to assuage our our fears that women might be killing because they dislike men it shows us that when a woman commits that desperate Act of Killing a man. She does so only because she loves him so very much but to get to your question about opportunity increasing homicide. I think it's not so much whether women are going to move out of the home and have greater opportunity it is as you correctly say in your question, the is the methods that we learn to solve our problems and homicide has always been the point of Last Resort for women men are taught to solve their problems by physical aggression, but not women so I would have to argue that it's that social. Malaysian process that has much more to do with those violent rate than simple opportunity. Now, this is not to say that if women were given an absolute equal break today that some of them might not take do the same kinds of killings that men do but that's that's you know, even if we could prove that that we're going to happen. That's the chance you take and the quality is simply the only morally right course for this country to take then let the chips fall where they may I believe we have time for one more very quick question. Good afternoon your on the area question, please. You mentioned that many of the women in serving time in prison. Now for murder killed in assailant was battering them. How about women who may have killed an assailant who was raping that woman and that she didn't know the woman either they have you come across women serving time for that. Yes. I have that's a rare instance and women who kills a rapist who is unknown to her is more likely to be able to make out a self defense case and she stands a better chance of being acquitted on those grounds. We don't permit a Woman by and large to defend herself within the confines of her own home and most women who are being attacked are being attacked in their own homes by the men they live with we had a number of interesting calls today. I want to thank and Jones the author of the book women who kill