Crime is Big Business the cost of minnesotans in 1978 for all categories of property crimes such things as car theft burglary and larceny condemned if you was 50 million dollars a few weeks to call the FBI reported that the rate of increase in crime from last year was 17% less statistic does not necessarily apply to Minnesota in the first three months of this year according to the Bureau of Criminal apprehension. There was a slight decrease in state crime rate in the month of March cording to BCA statisticians the crime started edging up two categories of crime tend to show what is happening across our state serious crime include such things as murder rape and aggravated assault the BCA reports that there were 20% fewer murders in 1978 and in 1977, it was a 3% increase in the numbers of rapes and aggravated assault II General category property crimes include such things as burglary larceny auto theft as we mentioned the reported incidences of burglary and auto theft decreased slightly.Soda from 1977 to 1978 the instances of larceny increased with all of those numbers. If not impressed. You you might consider this the rate of increase in reported crime in Minnesota from 1968 to 1978 was over 50% more about the next half-hour on. Midday. We're going to learn what those statistics tell us who is committing the crime what some of the sentences are in the trends that can be observed. We have three guests with us is Cindy Turner who is director of research for the Minnesota Crime Control planning board. Cindy has a PHD in child psychology from Yale, which is she pointed out Merriman not be important for her job and does she is a native of California and has been in Minnesota for about 12 Years. Also with us Kenneth Young director of court services for Hennepin County is been with Hennepin County government since 1953 Bachelor of Arts degree in a master of Social Work degree from the University of Minnesota is a native of Minnesota and is 55 years old and can head to the apartment that has about 350 employees in it and one of the employeesIs Ray Cummings who is director of planning and evaluation evaluation for their parking of court services for Hennepin County. He has been with court services for just over one year The Bachelor of Arts from St. Thomas and master of arts and a PhD in sociology from the University of Minnesota. Welcome to all of you. And the first thing I want to get at is this 17% statistic that the FBI sided not too long ago and Cindy what is the definition of it? What does that statistic rather tell us about the increase in crime. Most people are aware a statistic in and of itself tells you very little and I assume that's why we're here today to talk about interpreting statistics and in particular crime statistics. I think that the listeners ought to be aware if they're not already of several limitations of looking at just a percentage change in particular from one year to the next door from one quarter to the next without knowing the numbers involved. It's very misleading to say that there has been a 50% two hundred percent.Whatever change if the numbers are very small that may not indicate anything significant and it may very well be a random sort of fluctuation one other limitation of looking at the reported crime, which is what we're talking about here crimes reported to the police. There are a number of crimes that are not reported so that this does not give a very good picture of the true level of crime either in Minnesota or nationally generally speaking. The more serious crimes are reported such as your murders. There's been quite a bit of variation in the reporting of rape over the years with I think they're reporting rate is now increasing on that one, but some of your lesser crimes and your property crimes up to 80% may not be reported. So we are talking about crimes that are reported to the police and that is one limitation.But with all those reservations, let's get to the meat of the question. What do these Trends mean? And in particular in the first quarter of this year 1979 both nationally and in Minnesota, there was quite a substantial increase 4.7% in serious crimes in Minnesota 11% nationally and of that the violent crime in particular appears to be going up against 17% nationally 39% in Minnesota. And I think that has caused some people to have some concern. Is this a significant trend is this something we ought to keep our eyes on 1/4 doesn't tell us much and in particular first-quarter in Minnesota does not necessarily predict the rest of the year so that may turn around that is something serious crimes ending meaning such things as homicides are solved especially aggravated 7 index crimes that the FBI include the ones that you mentioned before but isn'tThere isn't it that robbery and aggravated assault that show most noticeable increase Trend you have that's coming after a couple of years when crime has gone down in Minnesota as they offer some other parts of the country. I'd like to turn to Ken young and Ray Cummings to get some picture of that for an urban area in Minnesota namely the Metropolitan Twin Cities area where Hennepin County what you know about and also I'm curious about your reaction to the FBI statistic of 17% increase camp.Again, I ask a guest. So we tend to look at it in terms of local community some and when you look at FBI statistics across-the-board, they may represent something that doesn't necessarily apply to a community like Hennepin County or committed like Ramsay or whatever and here at least in Hennepin County again, we've had a relatively stable if you will love crime rate at such and we haven't seen those significant changes and increases that have been noted at the national level Ray. Maybe you've got a I was absolutely fascinated by those figures from the FBI the after years of decrease in most areas, except I think the rape category as we have this not just a slight increase but a dramatic increaseFor the first quarter of 79. My first thought was is this dude artificial factors? And that's always a question in any kind of statistical reporting as are there artificial factors. For example, I have the expanded the net of reporting stations have they read to find things and but I believe it's in the verify this. I believe that the crime statistics supporting network is pretty standardized and actually pretty good from the local level right on up through the national FBI levels. Hope we've probably throw that reason out there is something going on. That's not artificial the second observation that I had was I took a look at the metropolitan areas around the country and noticed that the scene that several of them. If you were were carrying the statistics. In other words is a few metropolitan areas where you had dramatic increases and that brings the overall national average of Texas seems to be in trouble. Pardon Army Texans, but Dallas and FortIn Houston have had tremendous increases almost across the board of Baltimore Boston Newark, New Jersey, especially in the motor vehicles tremendous increase it on the other hand cities where you might expect High increases like Detroit Chicago Cleveland, they weren't there. If you were to give a particular reason if you had to choose from among three or four reasons why these Trends are occurring and let's say an increase in serious crime. If you were given to such options as coming recession inflation, or he cannot generally economic conditions an increase in a particular segment of the population for young people more teenagers in our population or any other option. Which of the various options. Would you cite as the leading to an increase in crime in this country Cindy? I think one thing that you've simply got to look at just what's happening to the baby. Boom.Now the baby boom was responsible. I think especially over the last 10 years for a lot of property related crime. They were going through the juvenile years there now out of the juvenile years and into their twenties and early thirties and I would suspect that there in two more adult type crime property crimes tend to be related with the juveniles the number of juveniles in your population. Some of the more violent crimes tend to be with an older age group of a group of drinking for instance, which the juveniles well most of them worse and we may be seeing more of these aggravated assault in and things that are related to stress to alcohol to drugs and I think the overall economic situation probably adds to that stress as well me to pick out any one one factor that says, you know predominate I guess I would agree with Cindy.The whole drug culture questions going to have been a new phenomenon in the country and perhaps it has contributed to a certain degree of the Murrah crimes of violence relative to getting drugs and use of drugs and stuff. And I think her observations about the young adult population increasing is correct. For example, in in Hennepin County. We have had a significant decrease in in juvenile crime at least reported to us as an agency and it still continue in on a downward Trend in a really reflects a lower population in the juvenile area. So that have a definite that cause a relationship I think to to crime in a moment. I want to ask both of you where the crimes in Hennepin County are being committed because I think we associate City with crime but Cindy I want to get an overview from you you mentioned earlier. In fact that that we are seeing more crime and rural areas. What is the picture for Minnesota? Where is it? Where are the crimes being committed a crime in the metropolitan area?There has been a tendency for that to be going down over the last few years and that's not true in the rural areas of the state. The trend has been up now. That's not to say that the bulk of the crime still isn't in the metropolitan area because it is and the crime rate is higher. The crimes per capita is still higher in the metropolitan area, but we are becoming increasingly concerned about the rural areas of the state and what can be done to reduce that and can to get back to what you say. You have seen in a decrease in the incidence of reporting of juvenile crime. What else have you seen in Hennepin County? Yeah. I'm perhaps I should make one thing clear is that part of my Association statistics relates to those crimes that are being at referred by there or those offenders are to be referred by the cord, which is perhaps different in terms of the whole legal process of reduction of certain types of offenses to lesser offenses that whole process a relation to ultimately with Statistics come out the end of the show.Fire Department in juvenile crime, for example, I guess we're beginning to see a little bit of a shift toward a larger proportion of suburban youths committing crime as compared to City youth there still a large or fairly identifiable pockets of a crime in certain inner-city areas, but there has been a definite shift from the Metropolitan or The Loop for downtown areas in City areas out to the suburbs. And I think that pattern is also began to shape up as far as the adult criminal activity. Maybe Ray has got a little bit more of a handle on that.Well, I was my mind is kind of drifting back to the other question about crime rates and and index crime crossed many many years and some of that my say-so Seidel contributing factors like a recession send them. I don't think we should fool herself into some state of complacency that statistics P will are sort of artificially representing situation that the Bureau of Criminal apprehension printed a very dramatic table on since 1936 to the recent time on crime rate and compared it with population and numbers of crimes and populations increase roughly double crime rate 6 x so there is a problem. There's no doubt about that. Although the last four years in Hennepin County have kind of plateaued in terms of crime rate knob I question I have for myself is how we going to now see us pert as has been the case over the last 40 years there.Plateau is usually during time of recessions. I noticed very interesting of the postwar World War II recession. It was a kind of a flat Towing the late 50s recession kind of a plateau, but then there's always a kind of a spurt. Is that what we're going to see? No, I don't know. Another question about Trends in crime the people who proposed gun control in this country would have us believe that there are more guns more handguns, especially than ever before more Firearms. Generally. Are we seeing an increase in the use of firearms in crimes committed by people in this state and we'll take our rotation starting with Cindy. I guess. I only look that up as far as murder was concerned.There isn't anything that dramatic that I could find proximately half of murders do involve firearms. And I don't think that has changed a great deal over the last few years. Is there any difference so I should ask all of you to comment on this to as we go around are the murders domestic murders generally that is to say I'm on relatives or among strangers most are friends and relatives. And that seems to remain the same and can you don't notice any increase in the use of firearms in hand? I really don't have the answer to that but I would like to come and I was in Los Angeles a couple of years ago at a conference on the Juvenile Justice and the rather alarming. Events going on at their relative to the youth gangs you for gangs and all I was attributed to get into the availability of handguns in at least in that county. There were seeing am an increase in the use of handguns in a salted salt and in murders, I guess what's most alarming about it again is the availability and it was pointed out that many years ago kids would grass make their own ZIP guns and many times. You weren't all that lethal. But today they're real guns and they kill real people and it was a significant difference in what's been happening. Before we leave this section of defining the problem of crime and get to the issue of what we can do to control crime how much crime isn't reported of all of the numbers and statistics we have sighted how much crime is not reported depends very much on the type of crime. There was a victim is Asian survey done in Minneapolis several years ago by Ellie a and the results there were very typical of the results around the country. Although they did tend to concentrate on you urban areas the less-serious the crime the last reporting and it varies by age group as well, which I found interesting the younger the people involved the West reporting the elderly tend to report crimes better or more consistently than any group. So there's an interesting Trends there to commercial property crimes against commercial property in very high reporting. If you can get insurance for your loss, you're much more likely to report it as required get individual insurance on individual. Maybe that would help the reporting. So what you're saying is that there is a lot of stuff happening to people on the street or in their homes of such things. For example of spouse abuse. I'm thinking child abuse to which just goes unreported petty larceny. I think this is some successes satistics would like 11% reporting I even assault 25-30 40% and maybe it's because oftentimes those as you say then the year the salt is against people who know each other. So there's a hesitancy to report link to it occurs to me that I was wonder if this tied in with the increasing crime reporting is is that there has been a lot of emphasis on the victim becoming involved and reel push toward having them report crime in this is also really mad that I don't know if you measure it but it certainly has to affect the number of crimes reported and a lot of the push to for victims to report. I think it's been the last couple of years. Number of protons have been funded to for victim services for programs for rape victims that would encourage them to report which is often a very difficult thing in the past. It was to get them to do because of embarrassment. Another thing. I'll just leave this very nicely into the second part of today's discussion, which we'll get to in just a moment after we remind listeners that it's 46 minutes before 1, this is midday on Minnesota Public Radio talking and talking with Ken young who is director of court services for Hennepin County and a Ray Cummings who is director of planning and evaluation for Hennepin County in the department of court services. Also with us Cindy Turner director of research for the Crime Control planning board in Minnesota Cindy just a few minutes ago. You mentioned three very of a very important acronym the leaa the law enforcement assistance Administration. It was a name we heard a lot about a few years ago. It was in the Johnson Administration wasn't nothing leaa was conceived and funded I may be wrong on that but then started Sources of federal funds for Crime Control and I wonder if you could give us the picture of how much money is spent in Minnesota for Crime Control. Well from the federal level we get approximately 6 million dollars a year that may sound like a lot of money but when you put that in perspective in that the state as a whole considering local as well as state government spends 280 million dollars a year on the criminal justice system. You can see that the federal funds are really a very small percentage of them of the money. So that would include everything from the local in the village policeman all the way up to a 900% of Minneapolis City Police Department in all the courts in the state all areas of the system law enforcement would include prosecution and Department of court services in Hennepin County is 280 million dollars spent in Minnesota for your for your money. Where is the money going is it being spent mainly on Hardware is it's been feeling is being Bent mainly on programs to professionalize police forces or help victims or how is the money being spent? Well, they have been used and were intended to be used primarily for Innovation. Another words not to support the system. Is it now functions which is really is primarily a responsibility of either local or state government but to try out new ideas to try new ways of doing things to see if they work and if they do work to hopefully continue them and we have had a number of our programs a very high percentage continued after the three years of federal funds because they have proven themselves and the local units have wanted to pick them up and put them in their budgets. I think in many ways. We have stressed crime prevention as much as possible. I think the feeling has been that wants a crime occurs. There is very little that can be done for one thing. Most people don't get arrested for for the crime. The clearance rate in the state is about 20% Which isn't all that high so you can't expect the criminal justice. Semper say the police and the courts and corrections to solve the crime problem for us because they really don't see most of the people who are involved and they can do the best they can with the ones that get there, but that's not the bulk of the problem. So we have stressed neighborhood friends neighborhood crime prevention programs getting communities involved in trying to take responsibility for their neighborhoods for their neighbors houses when they're away and I think this is had an effect. I'm curious about that for Hennepin County Canon Ray, the operation identification program for example was very popular of those kinds of crime prevention programs at what can you tell us about how successful they have been well law enforcement can comment better on that. But personally I heard that has been very successful and I must admit that I don't subscribe myself, but I probably will after this program having set a time of the year, but I've heard that it has been a successful effort and it's that kind of innovation with Cindy. We need more of the cost. It would fit Central talkin money. Right now. The cost of Corrections for example is just like any other commodity if you will in this Society is going up the cost to incarcerate people that cost to even put them or have them in Community Corrections residential programs is going up and so well, we're going to have to all sit back and say where is the best cost benefit for for this signal for this money? I think Cindy makes a good distinction between prevention or diversion and if you will leave your system after the Defenders been adjudicated in our department again, we're dealing mainly with adjudicated offender. So a lot of our efforts have been more toward Correctional programs in our application rally $8 reflected that for example, we've been very much a part of an infective. Developed into Institute of the drive toward the alternatives to prison for adult residential programs. We have a pot of four including one residential program for adult female offenders in in Hennepin County. And these are designed really to have an alternate between a few of Probation and institutionalization and these came out of Ellie $8 an hour funded through County and through Community Corrections act dollars, but I really think the correct the majority of those dollars really should go for prevention diversion and I was real glad to hear you say that we're not going to affect the crime rate all that much from our end of it. So if all of our operations were put away today, I guess this would necessarily solve the crime problem many minutes. Can you add a lot of go ahead ran to a point with quite a bit? Cuz he's my boss. I think we should not slip to quickly into the Trap that prevention will take care of it all in my mind prevention is Thing that everybody in the system has a responsibility for and that includes the judges who sentenced to probation officers who supervised the jails who supposedly into Rehabilitation or even just a custodial their prevention is a responsibility of every part of the system to the extent that every part of the system is successful. We will prevent cramps some people still believes or I should say some people believe strongly that jail is the best deterrent to Crime. What are we seeing in the way of people being sent to jail? Her number is increasing decreasing over the past years one in Hennepin County. There has been an increase in the use of Institutions not so much at the state level. In other words commitment of offenders to state prisons. All of that has increased very slightly, but our bench who are judges tend to be using more often a local adult corrections facility for short term institutionalization many times as part of a total probation plan. There seems to be I think an attitude that what are the best ways for to datura an offender from repeating is to give him a short if you were shot in an institution then return the relatively short time and we have seen the last few years is somewhat of a decrease in the use of probation the small increase in the use of a tickly local institution facilities What About Dre the area of serious crime and Cindy two murders aggravated assault are sentences longer generally are we seeing then? I don't think that's true at the state level. Of course it in terms of State length of sentence. That's pretty much controlled by the Matrix system that was developed a few years ago. And that the two factors that go into how long you serve are really the seriousness of your crime and how many prior offences you had and that's just basically fit into the system and that determines how long you will serve. So I think that's been fairly stable since they put that system into effect may be a slight increase. I think we're seeing the beginning of a. Were they'll be more incarcerated fraps and longer. I think some of it is a reaction to public opinion. I was going to ask you that and so the benches feeling pressure pumping. So is the parole board and anybody that controls how long people will stay in it in a prisoner and determine who will go in developing guidelines, which the legislature will then look at him and perhaps adopt that will pretty much determine the sentences within a given framework that will be handed out at least in the district courts in the state. There was a feeling certainly a few years ago that perhaps sentencing wasn't as standard across the state as it might be although they're pros and cons of that some people think that you do need to tailor sentences to the individual and that it shouldn't be all that standardized. But that's exactly what the sentencing guidelines commission is now trying to determine In an effect to one of the major thrust of the sentencing guidelines commission is to reduce discretion of judges in effect. They'll all be a operating under some standard procedures and give him some discretion within 15% on the high side to 15% of the low side, but that should bring into into play a more consistent and reduce disparity in sentencing that might have any current affect. Nobody knows that for sure, but if people have a better idea of what kind of sentence they're going to receive for a certain crime as opposed to play in the various games that go on now with plea bargaining and other things getting involved. It might have a deterrent effect. We really don't know that these are complicating the judicial process and perhaps encouraging crime. I wouldn't go so far as to say that we have recently completed a three-year study on plea bargaining in Minnesota in the district courts, and there are some interesting results that dumb. I don't think it's her. It is not an indictment of the plea bargaining process by any means as a matter of fact, it just really plays up what we have all learned about the criminal justice system is it there is discretion at every level but by and large the more serious criminals who probably do need the most attention are the ones who do get sentenced and the ones who fall out either through plea bargaining or police discretion or whatever else perhaps they don't really deserve to go the full route. Anyway many studies, especially predicts very well for them not to getting into a life of crime and as the judicial process is lengthened then cut made more cumbersome. We may be getting away from what is it? Good deterrent factoring. Then there is a lot of talk every now and again about the Minnesota being a relatively Crime Free State and I guess I'd like to conclude our discussion on that point and talk about that just a little bit is that necessarily true Cindy that Minnesota. Especially after our discussion today generally it ranks. About the middle or better compared to other states. And so we aren't, you know, crime-ridden by any means but I do have a few figures here that I did put together a mature about a year old, but the national part 1 crime rate in this is the number of crimes per hundred population was 5055. Minnesota's was 4308. So, you know, we're less than the national average but not all that much less. All right. I'm can do you or Raid you have figures for Hennepin County. Which indicate whether or not it's a simple? Yes, crime-ridden as some people would believe that it's it's a level over the last few years, but it's there. It's a terrible thing for our people and I think that we shouldn't the fall into a state of complacency that they will because we're blow the national average. Therefore. We don't have to worry about it. I think each of us in our families and our neighborhoods and they're bigger Community should take a look at our neighborhood our community and say what is our problem here. Do we have a problem? And if if so, what are we doing about it kind of a Grassroots? I need to set up and if you will and then dealing with the problem rather than waiting for the federal government to come in with money and take care of it. Finally. I'm thinking about a kind of crime that is in a way a reaction crime in it. A few days ago when I saw a story of the Associated Press about a man in Florida who had rigged a 22 caliber rifle attached to his door in his house and inadvertently or I should say the the Trap was tripped by a neighbor entering the window of this man's house and they were who was a friend and I certainly the neighbor was not intended to be killed. I'm wondering if we are seeing among citizens in our society of a dramatic rise in this kind of attempt to foil crime by that method and whether or not we can expect a problem in crime in that was a problem of crime in that way that people's fear of crime may not be in reality a relation to the actual problem that they have in their neighborhood. And again, maybe that means we need to do more public education in community is about what is the actual problem is Ray was saying you'll find especially some elderly people who are just afraid to go out at all. And I think that's a shame because it is a matter of fact the elderly Would have the lowest crime rate in terms of being victims of any age group in our society, but they fear it the most and perhaps part of that is an educational problem in terms of what realistically what major should they take but maybe perhaps Their Fear is out of proportion to the actual risk of being a victim people have become somewhat numbed to what's going on and it's kind of a hopeless situation. I have a recall people saying that in Philadelphia their parents are signs and hotel saying you go out after dark at your own risk, which is the extent of the reaction in people don't go out our people say while I was burglarized again this week if they live over by certain areas by University for example, and kind of leave it at that. What what what may be a healthy thing is organization at neighborhood levels not just in the near city or inner-city areas, but Suburban areas as well where people are Not necessarily farming vigilante groups, but are trying to get more organized about what we can do. I guess I'd like to think to at least a Minnesota and then in the county where in there is a if you want more of a willingness on the part of the system to move out and really involve Community individuals groups and so on and it's very easy as Ray suggested before they get someone complacent if you would travel around the country little bit you'll find that the kinds of things that have happened here and not having else work that again doesn't mean we we we sit back on our laurels in in the neighborhood idea. I was at a meeting just the other evening in my particular neighborhood of Marion called him and asked me to attend then again, it was a small item that had to do with traffic noises and some vandalism but the group got together. It was a lot of sharing and out of it. They came with a very specific ways of handling at that. I'm sure are going to be a lot more productive than setting up a 22 caliber rifle in your home to trick somebody. All right. Thanks to all of you for joining us today. We run out of time for this portion of midday and let's hope we don't have to talk too much in the future about crime in Minnesota. We've been talking to Kenneth Young who is director of court services for Hennepin County and Ray Cummings who is director of planning and evaluation in the court services department. Also with us Cindy Turner director of research Crime Control planning board for, Minnesota.