Well, I don't know if it's a crime to success story. That sounds like I stole a bunch of money and then I got away and made it here. Anyway, I don't know I think that basically you just grew up in Minneapolis and and wound up falling in with around the wrong crowd. Now. My mother tells me that's the wrong crowd because you know, I always wanted my my mother always told me that you're hanging around with the wrong people and I assume that the other kids I would hang around with it their mothers told him the same thing. So you never know who was the wrong person but, you know just kind of misguided misdirected. I came up at a time and in school that if you if you had any taint of of not being one of the regular kind of people the coaches didn't want you on their team names and those kinds of things. I was six foot four inches tall. Is it as a sophomore never played basketball?In high school until I know it but probably if I had been involved in sports in some ways maybe different kind of thing would have occurred but it didn't but I think the after my involvement originally in the in the drug world and and then involved in criminal activities and went to the institution on a number of occasions three occasions really I was in the Reformatory that you know, every time I went there somebody, you know, they kept working and working and although we don't like to say that I mean that some people don't like to to acknowledge the fact that that Rehabilitation does and it can and does occur in institutions the fact that matter is there were people there who were saying things to me and that caused me to think about what I was doing it took me 3 times. Maybe I'm a slow learner. I think I came out at the right time. I think that that the timing was good. I'm an ex-addict at a time when people wereDogs in and they didn't realize it in your talk about junior high schools and grade schools. So I'm all of a sudden around the community speaking to two high schools and junior high schools in grade school kids about the dangers of drugs and in this at the other end and so I got a lot of lot of notoriety because of that and I really enjoyed it and it was good for me to make me a kept me going in the right direction and I know what I wanted to do and what I didn't want to let you know that my time was totally taken up in the in the whole Direction was towards positive things. There was no way I can go other than that which I did I am my 10-year anniversary out of prison was December 23rd of 1978.And I mean it's relatively short. Of time to travel from one side of a table to another side. That's right. And you appeared before the parole board on a number of occasions. What does it feel like to be before a group of people that do, you know the future your own future in their hands. It's an interesting thing because you don't see a group of people. Normally it was as I went into the room and you are very very intense kind of a time where you can't thank and you can't talk.And and you did the chairman is one that's talking to you. And so you're listening to what he's saying, but but the words that you're trying to to hear our when am I going to get out when can I get out sooner and and listen to what I'm saying? Because I'm not really who who you think I am. I want to be out of prison. I promise you I won't come back kind of internal thoughts. It's an intense time. All of the things that I I knew I wanted to say at least most of the times I've been before the board the things I knew I wanted to say, I forgot every time never could figure out what was going on. And so that makes up the moment. I walked out of the room. I say what I want to say. The last time I was in prison third time and in a time is it that I will get very tired. I think or sometime around February or so of 1968 and 1/9. This wasn't the name in February. But the last time I went to prison my aunt and my great-aunt is really my father is not it was just ancient at the time was the only one who wrote letters to me and she would send me books like prayer power in prayer can change your life in those kind of things and I wasn't necessarily into that the time and so but I would read the last or the first and last chapter of each of the books so I could comment on the book and let her to be I got this book called The Power of Positive Thinking by dr. Norman Vincent Peale strange as it may seem that you know, sometimes hesitate this to tell people this but I started to read Miss. I usually do the first chapter in last after I start to read the first chapter. I got all the way up to the about the third fourth chapter the book the book again. I got to about the 6 chapter that book and at that time I had some drugs in my cell and needle at stuff. I picked it all up went to the toilet dropped in the toilet truck since that time, you know, I don't know what happened in that 2 and 1/2 hour. Of time at that moment, but but it was just some drastic kind of things have occurred at that moment and maybe what happens at Norman Vincent Peale book put all the things together for me that all these Correctional people my parole agents mothers and father. Those can people have been telling me all these years. Are you more religious now? I I don't think so. I think that I understand mean clearly M am of the belief that that somebody or something controls my life. Because some things happened to me yet in December of that in my cell at night that clearly said that's that that's something happened. My whole brain hoping had turned around 2 to not being in any kind of a turmoil situation. It was simply that I had decided to do what I wanted to do when I felt like doing it I believed at that point that I basically I'm a good person the things I really wanted to do it for you go fishing and hunting and and be involved in sports and and hot rods and things like that. And so, you know rather than then run around the street and stand on the corner talking slick out the side of my mouth and smoking dope and drinking wine, and I didn't want to do those things. They weren't fun to me and it's so you know what some of the things I would rather do like fishing and hunting and things, you know, and I am clothing-wise. I know where I grew up was of of Cadillacs and and $300 suits and and $100 shoes and those kind of things when I was really into it. I mean I wanted to be into blue jeans and tennis shoes and sweatshirts and Harley Davidson funeral and so, you know that there is some conflict there eventually when I was out I have I got into those things. You know, I got have the biggest nastiest Chopper you ever seen in your life right now that I'm I'm selling it at a big Harley Davidson Super Glide that I had had the neck Camino frame cut all up and stretched and raked and went down the guy wasn't I went to Wichita Kansas on it with my wife. She's passed around like going to Wichita Kansas last year and I hesitate to think about the picture that the vice chairman of the Minnesota Pro Bowl. Presented cruising down the down the freeway laid back on this side this actually huge machine, you know what the high bars and whatever with a leather vest on blue jeans and boots. It's hard to picture that but that and now you're the head of the parole board. Do you feel trapped in that role? Do you feel trapped with that title know I think that you know, maybe in the past I might have but but I feel the kinship of parole agents of Department of Corrections staff of the people who are the other board members, you know, and and Community people like I've gotten so many letters about me up from people, you know, and congratulations and things like that and that other people seem to be a very excited about this, you know, I don't feel trapped or I feel pressured. I feel like I can continue to have to be the same person that I was before and that And then if it you know that I'll be supported by by my friends and by my colleagues that I always have to ask advice, you know from people that I that I know and and respect throughout the system. Now, there's too many people around that are at the telephone or I can have somebody on the street to know if you were the situation what would you do a lot of pulse of the community? Kind of a of a situation that you're always in in that you are representative of the pulse of the community. I see myself in that role and although you it is not a you're not a name in a popularity contest in terms of public opinion because in the end, you know, the public is not always totally informed on the total situation. However, the public pays my salary and I certainly have a right to question into to say, you know, I don't think you should do this and then I think you should do that and if I can explain to them why I'm I am doing it this way then maybe I better be look at my position in and see if maybe they know as much as I do have taken away from your experience as a prisoner before the parole board. What have you learned from that and are you applying it to your present job? I think that the basic thing and I've learned from my experience who prison is is is that what it's like to be in prison and get the feeling that the pressure the pain, you know that the suffering a I understand what it means to do time, which sometimes I think you know, if we don't I forget sometimes you explain to people that we're sitting and boarding and we continue someone's case for a year. Text 2 seconds to say it but that's a long time 365 days is 12 months is 24 hours a day. It's it's a long time. It is serious punishment in the question about that and I think that people most people don't understand that being locked up in a prison be that I'm going to care if it's a country club prison if you're locked up and in a society that thang dearest possession is your freedom your personal freedom to go where you want to and do what you want to do that. That's the ultimate punishment in that is to to have that taken from you short of something that we don't have a Minnesota regarding crime in that capital punishment. But clearly that the the the taking away of one's freedom is a very serious kind of a punishment. I'm clearly that if if someone is a danger to the public and you simply cannot change them, you don't have the ability to change them and they have proven that to be the case over or number of different kinds of opportunities to the change and if not changing of continue to hurt people then what you do is if you incapacitate you simply take them off the street and keep them off to expiration of the sentence. The concept of Rehabilitation is that what you do while you're doing your punishment time? If you take something from someone you're punished for it. It's a good word to use. It's it's been around for 50 years or longer nap in terms of Minnesota Corrections. It's always been here when I was in prison. They always said Rehabilitation and that's what I was in prison for. But I was in prison with six seven hundred other guys who knew why they were there. I mean they were there for punishment because I did something they weren't supposed to do and do while you're out in the street doing those things that if I get caught I'm going to go to prison not to be rehabilitated but as punishment. While I'm there, I want to take advantage of the things offered then, you know, I can can make sure that I don't come back again. I think that's the the the thrust of of Corrections is to at some point when someone is released from prison that they stay out in the length of time really doesn't make any difference in terms of how long you stay in and accept it if it makes a difference in terms of the severity of the more severe the more time you going to do as punishment not an abusive amount of time, but I think enough to be clearly say that it's punishment. I think most prisoners are cynical about that word Rehabilitation about the word and and I know I was cynical about the word Rehabilitation basically because The general thrust of Corrections at one time was that a of keeping people in prison for their own good so that we can rehabilitate them and then let them out. The problem is that there are no other clearly that the people who are out. Who statistically don't commit new crimes homicide cases? That may be a reason for not committing crimes is that they are in prison such a long time, but I feel about about the concept of Rehabilitation but not about the concept of punishment and not about honesty when when we started in 1974 many people present. You know, I'm here for rehabilitation be honest with each other people may have told you that in the past and maybe it melt made him feel better or something. But the reason that you will put people put you in prison is as punishment while you're here if you want to do something so you don't come back. That's it. That's up to you. And I think that when we get that concept straight Amongst everybody in the system. I think it is, you know pretty much now that people are out there sanctions placed upon illegal behavior and that sanction is not vocational training. It is not completing High School. It is clearly Interruption of your freedom for some. Of time. Do you think because you had the prison experience and you were tuned to the prisoners experience you feel a kinship with them do you feel if that makes you more lenient and granting paroles no deal with very carefully is is to make sure that as I as I begin to make decisions that I'm not trying to show anybody anything either inmates or Community people the concept of the ex-offender on the parole board hole watch out, you know, open the door in line them up and running out. You know, I I may have to make sure that I'm I am not trying to to give people the impression. I'm not doing that by being more harsh or and also not trying to give inmates the the impression. I'm a nice guy by opening the door. I think that another thing about being in prison. is that I was in prison with people who are dangerous who are dangerous while they were in prison would not want to be somewhere with or I didn't have anybody that can protect me. There are some dangerous people who are in prison who preyed on other people in prison who prey on people when they're out of prison and while their aunt is making a difference and I think that in terms of my leniency or whatever, I I think I'm reasonable and rational about punishment time that the reason you have a parole board he or the other people in place of victims is that need all that? You do not talk about vengeance as a concept you're talkin about punishment and I think that when someone kills someone's wife or daughter or a relative, but there is no way that that that if they get out of prison if it if they stay in prison for two years is not enough time if I am still alive when they get out there about 2. And so are the concept of victims doing but clearly they expect us to say it to to punish people in now you start talking about a number of years in prison and is a very severe punishment you go from from 22 to 27 in prison a long time, you know, it seems somewhat short in terms of both when you're out in the community, but but that's a long time. The concept of Rehabilitation is one that occurs within the punishment time the concept of ex-cons being not be able to get being able to get housing in those kinds of things. And not necessarily of a truism. I think that we have have too many Community kinds of businesses that are involved in in the in this Corrections kind of a thing that they clearly text that kind of concept away that that that kind of community involvement in the corrections system means that the kind of jobs at persons may not get because their ex offenders are clearly in the security kinds of jobs and and that may not be true anymore. I think that guy was in the institution with the back in there in 68. I was at the Reformatory walking in to do a do hearings, you know, and I saw this guy Damn, the deputy sheriff know a lot of ex offenders who are law enforcement people ex-offenders at the Reformatory in terms of employment. The Department of Corrections, hire ex-offenders custody staff security staff at the Reformatory. I mean the the squad the security Squad member of ex-offender caseworker ex-offender lot of sex offenders in the system. This Department of Corrections preachers would have to practice what he preaches, you know, when they say hi or an ex-con they do it in the whole state does a whole states has an ex-offender is as we believe so much in our own Rehabilitation that we put Brian ex-offender as a highest ranking for all the fish in the state.