Human sexuality is a topic that has been receiving a lot of attention lately. I believe because of the many how to do it books put out fire by a people who may or may not have expertise in the area of human sexuality and also human sexuality is so is a topic in people's minds these days because of much of the credible scientific research being done some of the most extensive scientific research being done is at the University of Minnesota in the human sexuality program that is a part of the department of family practice at the University with us today as part of midday is dr. Owen Sanderson whose particular area of research in human sexuality and sexual physiology and we'll be talking about that bit later in our conversation. Welcome. Dr. Sanderson.I'm curious first of all about some historical aspects of human sexuality. I guess first about the University's program in human sexuality, which is not always had an easy time of it in terms of acceptance among people in the state of Minnesota. When did the program begin began and it was begun to teach medical students it it was first formed as a training program for medical students who were complaining because they weren't getting any kind of sex education and they were being turned Loose as doctors feeling that they couldn't deal with sexual problems their patients might present with your work is classroom work with medical students in right that's what were the sexual problems that they felt they could not deal with that it quickly the whole range of sexual problems that they weren't getting much education at all.I'm what they were finding was that their own attitudes toward sexuality got in their way of there being able to communicate with patients. So in many places in many cases, what happened was they didn't even get the problem from the patient in the first place because they didn't know how to ask about it. And if the patient managed to get up enough courage to talk about it the doctor off and managed to turn them off because they didn't know how to talk about it even what is the emphasis now on the training that you give the medical students is the emphasis on there being the person who handles the problem or is the emphasis on them helping people find other sources of Hell, their education has a two-party emphasis. The first is in which they go through us are which is a sexual attitude reassessment seminar in which they look at their own attitudes. They find out what their own attitudes are. So then they can deal with patients knowing what their own attitudes are. And then the other portion is a course in which they get didactic teaching.So that they know about the range of human behavior. They know what kind of treatment is available for different sexual problems. And then they learn to assess the severity of problems so that they can say well this is a problem that I can deal with I've had enough training. This is a problem that I need a little bit more training to deal with and I may choose to get that training or I may not depending on my interests as a physician and then there's the final group of problems where these are deeper problems. They're difficult to treat it needs a longer. Of time than I can give and I will refer from instructor. You are also a scientific researcher and you are a counselor as well. And in your area of research deal with sexual physiology and I would if you could describe what your work is Led You to there?What we're doing is trying to describe Sexual Health in terms of numbers of till no sexual health and sexual physiology. What happens to the body as it becomes sexually aroused has been only observed but nobody is putting instruments on and got numbers for what happened. And the reason we want to do this is because the I can be deceived if somebody is observing somebody do something particularly in that area as delicate as sexuality. They can be misled they they can expect to see something they have heard that so and so happens to the bodies it become sexually aroused they watch the body and they see it happening. Where is your fasting instrument to the body?And you find that g that's not happening after all. I just thought it was subtle things like changes of color the I very easily it can be deceived. So what we're trying to do is to put some instruments on the body have people become sexually aroused through masturbation and monitor what happens to their body the numbers you'll presumably fashion some theories and ideas about what is happening. And what will be the application would be one application and the other is just an interest. It's nice to know.Just the general idea of people knowing more about themselves. This information will be available hopefully to the the public and not in the form of numbers, but in the form of conclusions as to what can happen to the body and then they can say Chief this happens to other people as well. And then the other side of it is is she helping people who have what we called dysfunction sexual problems. And if we know what happens to the body normally when there is no dysfunction, then it can help us to deal with people whose bodies aren't working quite right. It's hard to imagine for example, laboratory conditions and then a person becoming sexually aroused in a laboratory for the purpose of scientific study. How do you approach this? First of all, where do you find people who are willing to cooperate and that we can tackle that question for a second of all, what must be your attitude in this in this whole matter?Our subjects are all volunteers there all people who say you should they hear about it. We're the most so it's always been a subject and they've heard what A good experience. They had being a subject how much they learned about themselves and how good they felt being able to contribute to a larger pool of knowledge. And so they send their friends along and some of our subjects come through personal contact with us. There are personal friends. And right now we've not done any other recruiting we've just had volunteers. We don't pay our subjects. We think that people should do it because they want to not because they're being forced because they don't have enough money and would like to get paid for it.And then once you approach the people about the nature of the research that is being done. What do you find is the reaction of people once they learn it is a laboratory environment that there are machines monitoring their sexual arousal first thing they ask is is anybody going to watch me and we say no nobody's going to watch you. We're not interested in what the eye sees were interested in the instruments. So you'll be in a room by yourself. They'll be auditory communication will have an intercom but we won't be watching you. So that's the usually they're at their first concern then most people say, you know, I'd like to do that, but I'm kind of anxious about that. That's something I've never thought about doing before she could I tell my friends about that and then they think about it some more and particularly if they talk to someone who's done it.And they asked more more questions and then you say, you know, I'm ready to give it a try. I'm anxious, but I'm willing to try. The point you may just a few minutes ago. Was that some of the people who come away from those laboratory experiences feel they have learned more about themselves. What are some of the statements that they have given you as to what they have learned about themselves. A lot of people have said I never realized what I was doing as I became sexually aroused I never realized what was happening to my body. A lot of people think if you're going to become more and more aware of what's happening to your body that's going to take away from the enjoyment of sex that if you're paying attention to muscles Contracting or Bloods lower your heart rate or whatever that somehow that'll make sex less enjoyable less romantic and are subject to say, hey that didn't happen because I become more aware of my body. It's as though there's more ways I can find pleasure. I I can be fine pleasure in muscle tension wears before I didn't even know I had that muscle tension before it was just an experience that I didn't know anything about now. I can pick out individual portions of experience and enjoy it even more and I think the analogy I would use would be someone who doesn't know much about you music listening to an orchestra and enjoying the music but someone who knows more about the insurance and the sounds of the different instruments and how they all week together and Joyce the music much much more and so too with our subjects, they're saying hey, I just enjoy it before but now there's so much more. It's so much more complex and so much more there to appreciate being done. There's little groups here. And there at one of the bigger ones is staying at Stony Brook in New York, but the kitty very quiet. They're not publishing books. They're tending to publish intrasex research journals. They don't tend to publish that much for the general public just yet. I think one of the reasons that they're keeping quiet is because they don't want to set up new mix and that the particular interests of ours is it there's been so many missed in the sexual area that we don't want to give out research results before we really know that these are true results. We want to have enough subjects come through so that we can say yeah this applies to most people if you publish too early if you go public to early you can give results that suggest something is happening at then somebody repeats the study and finds that it doesn't happen and we don't want people to Have you miss laid on them perfect transition to the next question you couldn't have scripted it better than that as I was doing just a small amount of reading in preparation for this conversation. I was struck with the amount of care and caution the People Express about their scientific findings in the area of human sexuality. Remember reading a statement by Saul Gordon. Dr. Saul Gordon that the studies by William Masters and Virginia Johnson had been widely and wildly misinterpreted and we're being used for all sorts of various theories and I'd like to return to your statement to putting new myths into circulation. What are some of the most common myths of human sexuality that you encounter in your work. Nowadays, I don't encounter so many of the myths about penis size making a difference and how enjoyable sex is those kind of Miss aren't so common anymore lately miss. I do see no are much more subtle and therefore sometimes much harder to deal with one of the less subtle ones is about multiple orgasm. It's known that women can have multiple orgasm and there's an impression now that many people have that women should have multiple orgasms because they have that capacity will in my work with women. I found that some women don't have multiple orgasms and if your failures because they don't and I don't think they should feel a failure. It may even be physiological that some women can't have multiple orgasms their bodies are built that way. I don't know that I'm not saying that it is physiological but it may be entered to say that all women can have multiple orgasms there for women should really does a lot of harm to some women. What about the I don't know if it's a myth. I think it was a belief for a long time though among many people that unless the man and the woman reach orgasm at the same time. The sex act simply wasn't as enjoyable. And and what do you have to say about that? It's nice when it happens, but it seems to happen most frequently to couples who aren't trying for that. It happens by chance. And I know many couples who described very enjoyable sex life who never have symbol taneous orgasm. In fact, they say they don't enjoy those as much they say that orgasm for them is a very individual internal type of experience. And so therefore they like to go inside themselves and if their Partners having orgasm at the same time, they can't appreciate the partners orgasm. So what they like to do is have their own and joy it come out of themselves and enjoy their partners. Does it ever strike you that we are obsessed with sex in this country. I mean this conversation I suppose is an extension of who we are talking about human sexuality and yet I think it's an irony that while we are talking about human sexuality in this way. Our country seems to be obsessed with sexuality in other ways Express through our advertising to our entertainment and other forms on the pages of of magazines. Is there a dangerous contrast? Is there a dangerous irony? Do you think between the kind of work you are doing and human sexuality and the kind of sexuality you see Express in the media or in the entertainment areas. For example, are we raising expectations? That should not be raised. I think I see this sensationalism with sex in the ads and I looking at it historically. I see it as a swing of the pendulum. There was the Victorian era were sex was kept very secret very quiet. Nobody talked about it and this is just the other side. The queen that the swing of the pendulum so that no Everybody's Talkin about it. It's all superficially anyway, nothing to talk about it's the topic and I would hope that it would settle down and it would be another area for serious non-commercial research and interests. So it is an interesting topic people like to talk about what happens between them. So I don't see the fact that people talk about sex a lot as a bad thing, but I am concerned about the use of sexuality and sex in advertising and that kind of thing. Is there an is there a connection do you think between these sensationalism of sex in advertising entertainment and the connection between that and people tending to be more conservative in areas of sexuality such as the availability of contraceptives or sex education, I mean by that because sex is so sensationalized in the in the media. Is there a reaction against it and people say well we simply Make contraceptives less available in sex education generally less available so that they'll be less promiscuity their connection. I'm not sure that's a very difficult question to answer and the research I've seen doesn't really answer that question partly because it's so difficult to get at what people's attitudes towards sexuality are the studies that have been done have been quite for many of them the effect of the advertising the studies that are done it very difficult to get it just what effect the advertising does have. So it's hard to tell whether they resistance to having contraception freely available and the resistance in some areas to some set your sex education is as a reaction or whether it's the result of the historical development. It is very difficult to tell what is your educated or your personal opinion about the availability of contraceptives for young people. For example of especially young people teenagers, will it increase their sexual activity? This is my own personal opinion and it is that it won't they ones that are sexually active are often the ones who are not using contraception and I was particularly struck by a statement call Gordon made in one of his books and which they looked at the sexual knowledge of virgins and non-virgins. These were teenagers in a high school and what they found was that they ones with the sexual knowledge with a non-virgin. For the virgins the non-virgins were they the ones who didn't have the knowledge they had actually had experience but they had very little knowledge about sexuality. Where is The Virgins who had chosen not to go ahead and have sexual experience at a much wider range of Knowledge Learning about human sexuality. One of the things that we found Andre come to accept recently is the fact that we are sexual beings from the time we are born or perhaps even before we were born until we die and therefore sexual education starts from the moment. We're born it's not a matter of do we give sex education or not? We are educating our children about sex from the time. They arrive is a question of what kind of education do we give them and parents have a choice what kind of education they give their children? Place for many parents in this day and age is a choice between how much the parents will say and how much responsibility they will give to the educational institution. If it's a private or a public school for example, and along those lines. I'm curious to know your reaction to the programs offered by public schools, especially for example, I guess I assumed that many of those programs talk about human sexuality without values without the value side of the argument. They teach more less than mechanics biological side of human sexuality is that we're human sexual education should be at for public schools. You think I'm not a general sex Educators. So again, this is just a personal opinion. I believe that very much value should be taught at the same time that sexuality information is given people have a right to have the information but I think students should also be exposed to a variety of values. To see that other people have values other than their own and they should be reinforced in holding on to their own values that it's good to have values in the sexual area and it's good to hang on to them. But don't try and force your values on someone else that other people have values just as strong as yours and they should hang on to theirs as well would think between various interest groups who among various interest groups who will say that there should be no sex education others that say there must be a sex education and it must be very complex sex education must cover a number of areas. We've covered 2/3 of your job with the human sexuality program at the University of Minnesota in the department of family practice, you are classroom instructor, you are researcher you're also a counselor and I'm wondering about that work as a counselor. If you find that people generally are open to talking about human sexuality. Not only among adults but for children as well, or if you find that there are very conservative attitudes among most people varies a lot depending on the people the people that I see her come for help. I see them in a clinic setting they have come in saying I have a sexual problem. So at least at that point point they can say I got to talk about my sexuality because there's something wrong with it. There's something bothering me. So even if they have conservative attitudes, they can still talk about their sexuality either. Somebody has referred them or they've come on their own and I wonder about their willingness to participate in a counseling session. I would imagine that some are much more willing to participate than others and with those who are extremely uncomfortable with talking about human sexuality. How do you proceed I try and make them feel comfortable by acknowledging that yes. This is a very difficult area to talk about and I realize that you're having some difficulty. So take your time. We've got lots of time you don't have to find just the right words. I'll try and match your language. You tell it in the words that you know, and then I'll check to make sure that I'm understanding what you're saying and just acknowledging that it's difficult to talk about and then giving them permission saying it's all right to talk about sexuality. When you talk with them about sexuality, what do you find monk among the people you talk to it? And we're talking about their conservative attitudes. The people have come to you either referred or on their own. Well, and I guess I'm sort of groping for the right way to to approach this question. How often can you help people? Depends on the problem and it depends what their goals are one of the things that we do very early when we first see them is push them to Define what their goals are because research has shown that the more you define your goal the more specific you are about your goal the better chance you have of reaching that goal. So someone who wants a better sex life doesn't have as good a chance of reaching that goal as someone who says I want to talk to my partner and have them talk back to me about sexuality. I would like to have intercourse three times a week. I would like to have orgasm twice someone who is very specific has a better chance of reaching their goal. So when it comes to how how much we can help them. It depends what their goal is. I think it's helped for everyone at some level with a sexual problem. What are the most common problems are the most common goals of people express to you his shift I think over the few years. Offering these kind of services. It's been a real shift in the kind of problems that we see at first. It was men who are impotent women who couldn't have an orgasm men who were premature ejaculators those kind of things pretty simple dysfunctions the kind of dysfunctions of Masters and Johnson treated quite easily, but they're more and more people have been trained a sex therapist and are now working in the community. So I sent her as a referral center is tending to get the more complicated things now things that the people in the community are having trouble with their not women who can't have orgasm women who cant have orgasim although we still see some of those we don't see as many missing things more into relationship things deeper things couples coming in saying, you know, we just don't seem to have sex anymore. She says, I want it three times a week. He says I'll Three times a week and yet they don't even have sex once every 3 months and there's deeper kind of issues going on between them power and control issues who's going to be in control of the relationship that kind of thing. So we're seeing more complicated things and the other thing we're seeing is more and more incest victims and victims program is the women's group for incest victims through the Family Practice Department human sexuality program at the department these victims range in age. I presume they come to you as adults do any children know we don't have a program for children right now. We don't have one for teenagers. Although we're hoping to set up a teenager's group. But right now what we're running is it a group for women who were molested as children and who over the past few years is fed. I need to deal with that that that that I had that episode that traumatic episode in my childhood is in flu. Missing how I deal with people in my daily life and I don't like the way it's influencing what happens to my daily life. So I want to deal with it uncomfortable with first of all admitting to any Outsider that they have a human sexuality problem that they that they are the victim of incest. What is the course for them to pursue in in following and coming to grips with that and perhaps approaching a counselor such as you so I think for someone with a sexual problem of any sort they have to admit that they have a problem if they want to get help and they have to realize they are going to have to talk to someone that they can't you just deal with it themselves. They may if it's very simple be able to read a book but they have to be careful what books they read because some books can get them into more trouble then can help them and then they have to realize they're probably going to have to talk to someone and that nowadays. It's quite acceptable. It doesn't say anything. About their worth is a person to have to admit that they're having sexual problems people go in and say I'm I'm having trouble with my digestion or I get abdominal pain or having trouble breathing to get help was so too. They should be able to go and say I'm having problems with my sexuality and I would like some help as far as the incest specifically goes. We haven't proved yet that all victims of incest are harmed by it. So it's only those people who think that they've been harmed by it that in some way. It's influencing what happens to them now and there are various agencies in town including the program in human sexuality who are no starting to offer groups and services to help them. Look at these problems. If they think it's a problem short time ago. You mentioned that there were therapists or counselors who have been trained to go to the community or who are now in communities. How can people get in touch with them? That's rather tricky because at the moment there's no National licensing. Anybody can say I'm going to be a sex therapist and put the name of the phone book is sex therapist. So I would recommend if you're looking for a sex therapist to go to someone you trust and ask for a referral to go to a physician go to a minister ask for referral. Another way is the American Association of sex Educators counselors and therapists shortened to a sect is no licensing therapist and you can write to them and ask for a list of their licensed therapist American Association of sex Educators counselors and therapists. How many quarks are there at work? How many people do you think calling themselves? I guess you won't know how many I should ask her. What is the prevalence of quacks who called himself self there a sex therapist one guideline that I use for my Is because I think it's very important is I have any clients that are looking for sex therapist asked. Is there any sexual or any touching between the therapist and the client and I personally and this is very personal opinion believe that they should be no sexual contact between the therapist and the client and that if any of that occurs, they should not go to them. What is the term that some therapist will use to describe that to call Tara p physiotherapeutic? Dr. Owens Henderson from the University of Minnesota is with the Department of Family practices human sexuality program. Thanks for joining us today on midday a fascinating discussion and perhaps in the future. We'll have you back to cover some other areas of human sexuality many areas. We did not get into including the history of human sexuality research the work of William Masters and Virginia Johnson important to few years ago still important than our much new research being a part of that and the work of Alfred Kinsey many years ago and perhaps we'll have time to chat about that 13 minutes before 1. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio.