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SPEAKER: Point 2-0.

SPEAKER: Checkpoint 2-0. Be on the lookout for two subjects with knapsacks. Two subjects with knapsacks. They've turned away from the perimeter at County Trunk A and Union Junction. Believe they may try and hike through to Cherry Road, as they did suggest they wanted to get into the abbey. Be on the lookout for these two subjects. Over.

SPEAKER: Zero 10-4.

SPEAKER: 4-15, stand by that location. I'll have someone pick them up there.

SPEAKER: I want everybody to know that we have established maximum security measures in the area to preclude any disruption. These security measures include the movement of armored personnel carriers throughout the perimeter. In addition, both motorized and foot patrols have been increased and checkpoints strengthened so that no movement in or out of the area will take place.

SPEAKER: Should we, as good men, sit here and let some outside rabble rousing sons of bitches come in here and tear Shawano apart? I have and I worked my ass off for what I got here. And by no means will I let some son of a bitch like that come in here and ruin it. I would kill that son of a bitch so fast, it'd make your head swim. Never in hell would I let him do it. And there was another 150 or 200 men here felt exactly the same way. We were all loaded.

SPEAKER: I cannot emphasize too much the need for your continued and peaceful cooperation at this critical time so that we conclude our efforts to bring this peaceful and honorable settlement to a conclusion.

SPEAKER: I think Indians are going to get stronger if there is a shootout because they know that confrontations like this will lead to death. But I think their determination will get stronger.

SPEAKER: Hey! Hey, pig!

[VOCALIZING]

SPEAKER: I put out the word to bring in 100 to 150 men with guns. And I told them I want men with brains and guts, and they'll take orders. Now, we were not going to take the law into our own hands. We were merely going to be in reserve.

BOB BRYAN: Snowmobilers going in every night, including last night, in the wee hours of this morning. And in mass, attacking the novitiate with heavy gunfire. This happened last night. It happened early this morning. It happened the night before and the night before and the night before.

SPEAKER: Well, I guess they did. There's no question on that at all. Somebody had to try to jar them loose. The guard wouldn't do it. They had no intention of doing nothing to get him out of there.

BOB BRYAN: The Warriors only want peace.

SPEAKER: These 40 bandits, and they call themselves Warriors. And they run off and hide behind women and little kids. What the hell kind of a warrior is that?

SPEAKER: Sir, you have twice made allegations that local citizenry, as you say, have attacked and shot at the novitiate set on various nights. What hard evidence and facts do you have to back up that--

BOB BRYAN: I cannot divulge that at this point. I know it's not the National Guard that's riding in on snowmobiles.

SPEAKER: Well, what evidence do you have to make a broad statement that local citizenry-- do you know?

BOB BRYAN: Well, maybe these large numbers, they come in on snowmobiles each night and attack the novitiate. I've been in the novitiate during four nights when at least two very hard attacks were made on the novitiate. Maybe these people are being flown in from Africa or somewhere. I don't know. Europe?

SPEAKER: Mr. Bryan?

SPEAKER: If you don't know, why are you making this blanket statement?

BOB BRYAN: I'm telling you. I'm telling you, the evidence is there. I cannot divulge it.

SPEAKER: Mr. Bryan, could you suggest to Colonel Simonson that perhaps some representatives of the news media be allowed to sit-in there for a night? We get conflicting reports from you. I call farmers in there. They say all the shots are coming from the novitiate. Snowmobilers say the novitiate shoots at them. And the National Guard says snowmobilers shoot at the novitiate. Could we send a pool of reporters in there?

BOB BRYAN: That is something you will have to discuss directly with Colonel Simonson.

SPEAKER: Point 2-0, say again. What's your status there?

SPEAKER: I said they're still shooting at us, but they're not coming. The incoming isn't all that close yet. But we have troopers on the outside looking around for possible personnel trying to leave the area of the abbey. Over.

SPEAKER: What's the position of the firing coming from your location? The subjects' firing from your location. They're behind you or where?

SPEAKER: Some of them are directly north of us. Some of them are to the northwest. And a few couple rounds came on the direction of northeast. Over.

SPEAKER: If the newsmen can't get in there today through these lines, we're going to truck in newsmen.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Voices from many perspectives, many views of issues surrounding the monastery seizure by Menominee Indians near Gresham, Wisconsin earlier this year. Controversial? Yes. Informative? Not entirely. Divergent points of view from a 34-day occupation clashing in the listener's mind as he or she tries to make sense out of a very complex and confusing event. Much like in many ways, the truncated coverage of any continuing news story by the press, radio, or television.

Bits and pieces to the reader, listener, or viewer. Bits and pieces assembled together for generalization by the reporter, whose perception of events must pass for an objective reflection of reality. But in truth, objectivity in reporting, whether it's in the news or a courtroom testimony of an auto accident, is a myth. It's not possible. Not for reporters, not for anyone else. In news coverage, objectivity is an abstract goal, never a realized entity.

Too many things get in the way. Deadlines, the intended audience, other news fighting for attention, conscious or unconscious bias, the values and points of view of the reporter, those of his employer. The point of view in the New York Times is different from that in the St. Paul dispatch and vice versa. CBS Television doesn't come away with the same perception of an international story as does Parimatch, nor should it really for conversely, there's much in the criticism that news is too similar, with little variety or differing perspectives.

But the point here really is that the limits of the reporter's perception, confine, shape, and direct the report, which the public is then handed oftentimes as fact, the objective picture of what happened out there. [INAUDIBLE] The reporter is a person, not a robot. He sees and hears. But most importantly, he edits. Some facts go in, some don't. Some facts are juxtaposed in space or time with other facts.

Balance a sense of fair play and factual accuracy. These are realistic goals. Objectivity is not of this world. All of this, I guess my little essay here on mythology and the like, puts me in mind of a film called Rashomon. It was shot in the 1950s under the brilliant Japanese director, Akira Kurosawa. At first glance, the film Rashomon presents itself as a sophisticated crime story laid in medieval Japan. In the middle of the forest, abandoned waylays a traveling samurai and his wife.

Inflamed by the woman's beauty, he rapes her after first assaulting the man and tying him up. Later, the samurai is found dead on the scene of the assault. But all these happenings belong to the past. Rashomon reviews in retrospect the events that led to the murder, if in fact murder it was. The story of what happened in the forest is told by three participants, as well as by a woodcutter, who pretends to have been an eyewitness.

What is so utterly striking about the film is that each version is pictured in a straightforward manner from the point of view of the respective narrator. The bandit boasts of freeing the man and then killing him in a fair sword duel. The woman declares that she fell into a troubled state of mind, and then stabbed her husband herself. The dead samurai employs a medium to convey his own testimony, and that is that he committed harakiri.

In his story, the woodcutter confirms the bandit's version but with a major difference. He says that the bandit savagely murdered the samurai at the behest of his shameless wife. To the movie viewer, it looks as if these conflicting accounts were assembled for the express purpose of reconstructing the crime in the forest. But the identity of the real criminal never leaks out. And there is no final attempt to reconcile the four versions.

Well then, what happens to the search for truth? What is the viewer to think? Perhaps, Kurosawa, the director, is suggesting that there are many truths and not necessarily a fact-bound reality that each one of us could agree on as objective. Differing accounts in the news may not be so blatant in their disagreement, at least at first glance, first listen, and first view. But perception of events often is.

And accordingly, the decision to publish or air certain material or not to has to be a chancy business, based on incomplete, if not sometimes, inaccurate information. It's the nature of the business. Something happens and one knows that all the facts will never be in. With this in mind, I'd like to spend the remainder of the hour sharing the sounds and voices of some of the experiences and people caught up by the seizure at Gresham. Not all of them, but a few which came the way of this reporter behind within his walls of perception.

The motives of the Menominee Warrior Society, whose members took over the unused Alexian Brothers' monastery in the early hours of New Year's day, when perhaps much of the public was still out celebrating, may ever be shrouded in controversy. Whether the Warrior Society members were bandits, as some have described them, or saving revolutionaries as others have said, may never be known. But to me, one thing is clear.

A 34-day armed Indian occupation in the middle of some woods in Northeastern Wisconsin didn't occur in a vacuum. There had to be a context. And for that, one useful point of view to get a barest handle on such motives might be some sketchy background on the overall Menominee tribe. It's a subjective consideration. But for that, I shall read you verbatim from a road sign erected a few miles from Gresham by the Wisconsin Historical Society.

According to that sign, when the famous French explorer, fur trader, and Indian pacifier Jean Nicolet first step to the shores near the present site of Green Bay in 1634, the Menominees were living in peace with their neighbors on both sides of the Menominee River on the present sites of Menominee, Michigan and Marinette, Wisconsin. Language and legends stamped them as Algonquins, an Indian nation which included most of the tribes in the United States and Canada north of the Ohio River and east of the Mississippi.

The Menominee name was bestowed upon them by the Chippewa. It means "people of the wild rice." As white settlers encroached upon their lands and treaties then were made with the US government, Menominees reluctantly moved from one reservation to another. By 1831, they had transferred to Eastern Indians half a million acres at $4.50 per acre, and another one-half million acres to the federal government at $5.50 per acre-- the money to be paid in annuities.

Land disenfranchisement continued in 1836 when Wisconsin became a territory. The Menominees were forced to sell 184,320 acres through the Fox River Valley, for settlement and lumbering, at $0.17 per acre. And they had to move again. In 1848, the government sought to move them to the Crow Wing County of Minnesota. But this time, the Menominee, under the leadership of Chief Oshkosh, refused to move.

In 1852, they were relocated on the Wolf River. And there in 1854, they were granted 10 townships. This is the present Menominee reservation. The sign doesn't mention this, but Gresham is just off the reservation. Also, not mentioned is the fact that Menominee reservation became Menominee County in 1961, pursuant to a 1953 act of Congress which terminated the tribe as a federal trust. What this meant was that Menominees were no longer recognized as Indians by the federal government.

Termination left a legacy of bitterness and frustration among the Menominees. The reservation became a county. And for the first time in their history, what was left of Menominee treaty land became taxable, a concept totally foreign to the Indian landowners. In a few years, the county was the poorest in Wisconsin. The hospital and school had closed. Land developers had bought up thousands of acres for rich resort speculation. And the tribe was in shambles.

This year, 1975, after more than a decade of efforts to re-tribalize to go back then to protected reservation status, the Menominees will again become a federal trust. But the bitter legacy of termination still exists. And this was one of the catalysts for the seizure of the Alexian Brothers' monastery. Inside the surrounded building during the occupation, Warrior Society spokesman Mel Chevalier, Jr. offered some background.

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Just prior to termination, we sued the federal government for $10 million for mismanagement of our forest, which is our way of life here. About two months ago or three months ago, there was a picture in a paper taken from a satellite from 700 miles up in the air. And it showed the upper peninsula in the northeastern part of Wisconsin.

And the very outline of our reservation boundaries that is shown on the map to show county lines and everything-- you could see it from 700 miles up that we were totally blanketed with forest. And all the surrounding areas around us were barren. And it just shows the Indian's love for his land and that he doesn't go and strip mine it and tear everything down in the name of mass producing for money and prosperity and everything else.

And it shows from 700 miles up. You can see a clear outline of our reservation. And quite a few years ago, the BIA who handled everything, they clear cut it. They permitted clear cutting. And we sued them for $10 million. And they weren't going to let us get by with that. So I don't know if it was along with that. But Senator Samuel V. Watkins from Utah who was a Mormon-- and if you get into any kind of Mormon religion, Indians are the chosen people according to their religion.

He come up here and he tried to convert us to that religion. And the Catholics-- boy, they saw that right away. And they had us burn our bibles and everything. So Mr. Watkins, he didn't like that. He was the one who addressed Congress and pressed for termination. The way they did it was really sneaky. A lot of our people weren't educated. They didn't understand English. They didn't understand a lot of stuff.

And then when we won that $10 million suit, they broke it down after they got it done. It was about $7 million. They divide it up into $1,500 payments. And Watkins told the Menominee people--

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: $1,500 payments for each Menominee?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Right. That was on the rolls. Mr. Watkins told the Menominee people that they wouldn't get $0.01 of that money unless they voted for termination. When the people did vote, they thought they were voting for this $1,500 payment. And by no means was it anywhere near 2/3 of the required vote. There was something like 97 people who voted for this.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Out of how many who could vote?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Oh, I would say around 3,500. And the whole thing, when he addressed Congress after he came back, that yeah, the Menominees wanted to be terminated and all of this. But the way he put it to the Menominees was-- listen. The BIA is a thorn in your side, man. They're calling all the shots. You can call your own shots? No. We'll take away-- like if you have $10 million in the bank, you just pay for your own school.

This is what we were doing before termination. We paid for our own school. We paid for our own hospital. We even paid the federal agent's salary that was on this reservation. We paid his salary.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: The Indian agent?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Right. We paid all of these things and still had money in the bank. And we were a very prosperous tribe in that respect. When Watkins told the Menominee people-- he says, listen, you no longer have the BIA standing over your shoulder saying this is right and this is wrong, do this and do that. You'll be able to do it on your own. So they kind of buttered the people up and cajoled them into termination.

When he addressed Congress, it was always the policy of the United States government saying they wanted to civilize Indians. They wanted to educate them. And this was supposed to be helping them, according to their thoughts. They actually knew what they were doing. But the American people thought this was great-- that they were going to educate these heathens. He told the Congress that the Menominee Indians were 3/5, I think, acculturated to the white man's society by 1930.

And if that was so, I shudder to think at what point we are now, somewhere above 1 and 1/2. So he really talked it up good and he got it passed. And it was all because we didn't want to be a part of his religion. And we didn't really have any say over it. It was the Catholics who said, hey, get out here. This is my moneymaker here. The priest in this area, he took two trips around the world a year. He had constituencies in every country, in every part of the state, begging in the name of poverty-stricken Menominee Indians.

And all this money was sent to him and rechanneled to the Green Bay diocese to various parishes who couldn't afford the upkeep of their church and everything. So they exploited the hell out of our people in the name of God. This is why we have such bitter feelings for the Catholic Church.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Most Menominees would share Warrior spokesman Chevalier's abiding hatred for the Termination Act and its partner legislation, Public Law 280, both for the devastating effects they had upon the tribe. But not all Menominees approved of Warrior Society methods and seizing that religious estate near Gresham. For the first two weeks of the 34-day occupation, one of the Warrior's harshest critics was Ada Deer, the head of the interim tribal council.

Interim refers to the current transitional period between termination and restoration. The 39-year-old Ms. Deer, who possesses social work degrees from the University of Wisconsin and from Columbia University, chairs the restoration committee in concert with two other women. All three deplored the takeover. Initially, Ms. Deer referred to the Warriors as militant invaders, dissidents, and political malcontents, some of whom she said had tried unsuccessfully to gain elective seats on the restoration committee.

She strongly condemned the occupiers as self-interested anarchists. But as the occupation lengthened, Ms. Deer came under more and more pressure to gap the growing factionalism within the tribe. Another week passed, National Guard strength around the monastery was bolstered. Women and children were evacuated from the building. The explosive atmosphere in the white community intensified.

And finally then on January 19th, Ms. Deer called a press conference under National Guard auspices at a motel in Shawano, the county seat in the white community near the Menominee reservation. Indian hecklers, many of whom were family or relatives of the Warriors, gathered at the motel in demonstration against her early anti-occupation position.

ADA DEER: Several members of our tribe are now occupying the Alexian Brothers' novitiate.

SPEAKER: Right on. Right on.

ADA DEER: It is time to speak out bluntly on the root causes of the occupation. We Menominees and all other Indian tribes are engulfed by racism. This is one of the chief causes of the occupation, which has been conducted by frustrated Indian people with the best of motives. I believe in choosing my words carefully. But I also believe in calling a spade a spade. Let me give you a few examples.

In the Shawano County courts, we Menominees do not receive equal justice. Excessively large numbers of Indians are arrested and jailed. The judges and the white man's law weigh the scales of justice against us. The juries, which seldom include Indians, convict and hand down harsh sentences because they don't understand us. We are sent to prisons in disproportionate high numbers and are then mistreated.

Adoptions and foster care cases are other areas where Indians are treated unequally. Before termination, we Indians had our own courts and legal systems. In 1953, Public Law 280 took away jurisdiction and forcibly imposed state jurisdiction without the consent of the tribes. There is now a national movement to abolish Public Law 280, which has been discredited along with other termination doctrines.

The point is simple. In order to receive equal justice, we Indian tribes must administer our own justice. The pressure by white citizens on our lands and treaty rights is unrelenting. Throughout this state, we must conduct daily struggles to retain our ancestral lands and hunting and fishing rights. The churches have failed us because they have not taken these moral issues to their members. All churches must begin to concentrate much more on reality and much less on business.

[CHATTER]

Would you let me finish? The State Attorney General's Office--

SPEAKER: Could we have your cooperation please so we can get this over with? Please.

ADA DEER: The State Attorney General's Office must establish an independent division of the Attorney General's Office to prosecute discrimination claims on behalf of American Indians. The office must be staffed with at least 10 lawyers. It must be directed by an American Indian and must have a free hand in combating racism against American Indians. The state and the federal government must join in a comprehensive study to liberate Wisconsin Indians from the shackles of Public Law 280.

I call upon the United States Congress to hold oversight hearings in Wisconsin Indian country to expose the injustices of Public Law 280 in Wisconsin and to return to Wisconsin tribes their rightful control over the administration of justice on Wisconsin reservations. These proposals are essential to eliminate basic inequities, which Menominees and other Wisconsin Indians face. But we all know that there are other crucial business at hand today, the protection of life and the solution to a desperately serious situation.

The Menominee Restoration Committee issued a detailed five-point proposal on January 10th. Two days ago, several Indian organizations expanded on that proposal and pledged all their resources to that proposal. We believe that those proposals should be pursued. And I want to say very pointedly that the Alexian Brothers must themselves make some compromises. To date, it appears that they have not done so.

I have no instant solutions, but I do have some general comments which I hope will prove helpful. The American Indian Movement has been here from the outset. Accordingly, after giving the American Indian Movement time and after mounting personal concern, I called upon other national Indian leaders to come here to help us. To save lives is my concern. And I call on all people to join me in this endeavor.

The National Tribal Chairmen's Association has sent their treasurer, the nearest ranking officer, to help us. The National Congress of American Indians has sent their area vice president to help me find a solution. They have also sent their prayers and support and the willingness to achieve a peaceful resolve without loss of life. The Great Lakes Inter-Tribal Council and other Indian organizations have lent their support.

In the past few days, many hours, day, and night have been devoted to the lives and feelings of those inside the novitiate. And from all this, I have learned that much more is needed to prevent further confrontation of this kind. I hope that the white community, the people of Shawano, have learned from this experience and can now begin a process of social, legal, and moral change that will give proper recognition to the humanity and plight of Indian people.

I accept my share of criticism. But I hope that our people will remember that the Menominee Restoration Committee is but an interim governing body with the specific task of developing a government and an election process that will establish a tribal council to solve problems. Those of us in leadership positions in the tribe are aware of and are sensitive to the frustrations and the feelings of those tribal members who are in the novitiate.

It is time for all tribes to examine their governmental structures to be certain that all tribal members are represented, from the youngest to the oldest. We Menominees will address these issues as we draft our constitution and bylaws. As the members of our tribe leave the novitiate, we welcome their active participation and the governmental processes of the tribe. The MRC pledges itself to that goal.

Criticism is proper, but working together is necessary. Let's not fight among ourselves. We need all the help we can get. This includes the Warrior Society and the American Indian Movement. We will create a system built on Indian principles and ideas that will respond to the social, cultural, and legal problems we now face. All Indian people will understand me when I say respect your brother's vision.

Here with me today are two Indian representatives who join me in this statement. They are Mike Chosa, area vice president of the National Congress of American Indians, Rick Baker, national treasurer of the National Chairmen's Association. We're pleased to answer questions.

SPEAKER: You're from Washington. That's how [INAUDIBLE]

SPEAKER: Go back to Washington.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Ada Deer and others. Later the same day, upon the reservation, a newly formed group of tribal elders called the Menominee People's Committee which had been set up to negotiate with the Warriors, condemned Ms. Deer's remarks.

The committee conveyed to about 200 listeners a list of Warrior concerns, which included a demand for the outright deed to the Alexian novitiate, the desires to return to traditional Menominee cultural practices, the pursuit of ancestral land claims through the courts, the push for a reservation health delivery service, an Indian-controlled school, housing and law enforcement programs. Ted Boyd, chairman of the seemingly moderate people's committee, carried these and other demands to the Indian audience.

TED BOYD: Fourthly-- and this is a sensitive thing for me to say. They want to reestablish the male's dominant leadership role in the tribe.

[APPLAUSE]

They were emphatic about this. They didn't want any compromise. These, we agree, are the major issues. They are the issues. They want this conveyed to the Menominee people. They want a commitment to work for these things by the committee. They want to see the Menominee people work for these things. I emphasize again that they are willing to die for what they are trying to achieve. There is no question in our minds that they are willing to do that.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: The response from this Menominee audience was strong in approving of all the Warrior Society points. A wide majority of listeners then signed a petition to Wisconsin Governor Patrick Lucey, asking that the posture of the National Guard be kept non-violent and that a peaceful negotiated settlement of the three-week-old confrontation be pursued at the state level. In other business, the people's committee called for the resignation of Ada Deer and of the two other Indian women who hold the interim tribal leadership positions.

TED BOYD: If we can't support our own people, have our leaders support them-- well, I say kick them the hell out of here. That's the way I feel.

[APPLAUSE]

I was never-- never spoke like this before. In fact, I always was with my father's position. I talked to my father. And I talked a long time with him. And he says, son, if that's what you think, go ahead and do it. By God, I want to do it too.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: One of the speakers was a Menominee woman who reinforced the Warrior demand that the tribe be returned to patriarchal control.

SPEAKER: I waited a long time for Menominee men to be our spokesman. It's going to happen because we've got them here today. We are going to support them because they are men. It is not tribal tradition for skirts to lead a tribe.

[APPLAUSE]

The skirts have got to go.

[APPLAUSE]

I like men.

SPEAKER: I like men.

SPEAKER: I like Indian men.

SPEAKER: Me, too.

SPEAKER: Me, too.

SPEAKER: And I would also like to conclude with this statement that I support the Menominee Warrior Society because they are men!

[APPLAUSE]

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: The people's committee and ad hoc group of nine men seemed impressed by their recent mediating visit to the abbey, a visit arranged by the National Guard.

TED BOYD: The thing I noticed about these young people seeking-- their reason is seeking their identity. It's something beautiful to watch with people. Something that they're after is beautiful, only an Indian can describe. We come to these Indian dances, you hear that drum. You feel it. That's beautiful healing. How do you Indians lost some of that? You think it's something else. These people are trying to seek that. I was impressed by their activity. Respectfulness, they showed us as an Indian.

What they're losing faith in is our government. County government, state government, federal government. It's kind of a joke. Your government officials, they swore on the Bible. They don't know what the hell is in there. In there, they're seeking the treaties. But the Indian land, these people want. They're seeking the treaties. When the government made the law, it made these treaties. They took their inspiration from the Bible. In that Bible, you look back in the book of Leviticus. It says, the land shall not be sold in perpetuity.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: While several points of view were being advanced in Indian country, there seemed to be a solidified reaction in the white community. Disgust, anger, and hatred. In Shawano, I spoke with Charlie McBride, a local snowmobile dealer. McBride is spokesman for the White American Movement and for the concerned citizens of Shawano County. Didn't hide his feelings.

CHARLIE MCBRIDE: To me, I can't see how somebody can take your property at gunpoint and negotiate. Now negotiations are things honorable people sit down and negotiate over. If I hold a gun at your head, you're at a great disadvantage.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Would you change your mind if you learned that the Alexian Brothers' property was Indian treaty land? Would that make a difference?

CHARLIE MCBRIDE: Not at all. Not at all. Because if those treaties were a couple of hundred years old, they mean nothing today.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Even if the treaty land was taken by gunpoint at that time?

CHARLIE MCBRIDE: Well, we've got to go back in history. And if the white man did take something at gunpoint, let's face facts. It's been taken. Now we can't suffer all our lives because our forefathers 200-300 years ago did something. I would say then, every white man in the United States would have to move out because this whole United States belonged to the Indians' one tribe or another. Now if that's our attitude, let's move out and give it back to them.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: How do you think the National Guard should have handled the problem here in Shawano County?

CHARLIE MCBRIDE: I think they should have continued in the same method that Sheriff Montour was using. They would had him out of there in probably a couple more days. Now I don't say they should shoot anybody. But they should have kept the current off, not give them any food, no medical supplies. And I'm sure that within a couple of days, they'd have walked out of the building. Now if they'd have been stupid enough to stay there and freeze to death or starve to death, then that falls on their shoulders, not on ours.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: And how do you think the governor played a part?

CHARLIE MCBRIDE: Well, by being soft. He told them, feed them, clothe them, give them medical expenses, bring them television sets. Anything they wanted, whatever they requested. Down to the Sunday newspapers, they delivered in there little carrier boys. He allowed women in there. For people that don't want to work for a living, when you got everything you can think of plus women, why would you ever want to come out?

It seemed to me that our governor, our National Guard, and everybody around here is telling our young people, if you want something [INAUDIBLE] get together and grab a gun and go take it. Now when you think of it, they will probably get minor sentences. So they get a couple of years. What is the easiest way to pick up $750,000 worth of property? Really, $6 million worth of property is what that novitiate's worth, if you had to replace it. I think anybody would sit-in jail for a couple of years for $750,000 or million or $2 million, wouldn't you?

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Charlie McBride. And now from the monastery itself, we rebroadcast an interview with the Warrior Society.

SPEAKER: For nearly a month, Menominee Indians have occupied the Alexian Brothers' novitiate near Gresham, Wisconsin. Negotiations for a peaceful settlement resumed last night in and around the novitiate and continued throughout this day. Tonight, the fifth and final part of an exclusive interview from inside the novitiate, a conversation with Mel Chevalier, Jr., spokesman for the Menominee Warrior Society. Reporter Kevin McKiernan tells us the novitiate's two-foot stone wall muffled the sounds of gunfire, which punctuated their discussion of Menominee religion.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Is it pretty hard to be an Indian in 1975?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Well, I personally don't find it hard to be an Indian. I've come to understand a lot of things. I would say in the last year, I finally realized I was an Indian and what it means to be an Indian, what our religion means. Our religion was taken away from us a long time ago. And the Catholic religion was thrown upon us and we had-- man, I remember when I was little. Went to the Catholic school. We got beat up because we didn't go to church. We got beat up.

Anything that had to do with indianism, we got beat up. Those people up in [? Zorra ?] are traditional people who were exiled from their very brothers and sisters because they wouldn't give up this way of life, their religion. They were exiled by the United States government at the point of a gun. And anytime we associated with those people, we were punished for it. And they said those are pagans. Our way is right way. Their way is paganism.

And finally, after all of these years, we didn't believe in either one of the religions because first of all, we didn't get our Indian religion to understand it enough. And the understanding we got from the Catholic religion has been compromised year after year after year after year. And it holds no credibility. It gives us no condolence in it. So as a result, we have a lot of alcoholics and a lot of broken marriages, a lot of broken homes. All of this stuff is a result of taking away our religion. And we can recognize this now.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Is some of this channeled, some of this understanding? Perhaps some of this hatred. Is some of that channeled toward the Alexian Brothers who own the building that we're sitting in?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Some of our brothers who are at certain levels of awareness, they understand. Some of them are still back in that stage where they are totally frustrated. And they hate all white people and they mistrust all white people. But once they come to understand their religion totally, they will know that white people are our brothers, as well as Indians, Blacks. We're all brothers and we all have one creator.

The methods in which we honor our creator and worship him are very essential to various cultures. An Indian can't practice a white man's method of practicing a religion and effectively find anything in it. A Vietnamese couldn't practice Catholicism and find any comfort in it or anything and vice versa and all the way around. But they took this away from us. And they never could take it totally away. And now we see a mass movement towards us.

And it's just cooperation between visions of a lot of our old ones and a lot of philosophy and a lot of the prophecy in the old Bible before it was revised and compromised and everything. We don't actually hate anyone. I just like to make that clear. We don't hate people because some of them don't understand what we want. Some of them don't understand what they're doing. And we must just have patience that maybe one day, they'll wake up and they'll stop doing this.

But these people who run the United States government-- President Ford, he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. He doesn't know that he's working for the money elite people-- the Rockefellers, the Carnegies, the JP Morgans, all of these people who control almost every part of the world. The exploitation that happened in South America. The overthrow of that Chilean government. All of this, it's all done with money. Shit. I know what the hell's going on out there.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: What happened?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Somebody shoot him. So that's what that's all about, man. Yeah. Why don't you check it out? Let us know what it is, man.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Is there a lot of shooting lately?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: No, not lately. We've been more or less in status quo status. Like, the negotiations are-- we hope they'll be resumed Thursday.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: That's automatic, isn't it?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Well, he got automatic weapons.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: M16s? The guardsmen?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Yeah, right.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: That was definitely from the guard?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: I don't know. He just went to check it out. Maybe it was. The Sheriff's Department, they really violated a lot of their agreements to own ceasefire agreements. In a lot of their promises, they wouldn't tighten the cordon. And the other day, we noticed the National Guard unloading troops right up here in the west of our position in the tree line. Went out there and had a confrontation with them a little. Sporadic firefight.

And they lied about it to the media. And they said, no, it wasn't us. We know that they try to blame it on the vigilantes. But we know the vigilantes don't run around with 25 radios and M16s, with starlight scopes on the little green uniforms jumping out of these pipes. So we know what kind of enemy the government is.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: When the Sheriff's Department had a couple of hundred deputies surrounding this estate, were they using automatic weapons?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: I couldn't definitely say yes. But because when they had fire from our direct front, they had about 40 people up there. 40 cops. And when they all said at the same time, you couldn't tell whether it was automatic or semi-automatic or what it was. But it was just a barrage of lead flying in here.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Are the people here who are Vietnam veterans who could compare the intensity of firing here with some of the action they saw in Vietnam?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: It's a totally different situation. I was in Vietnam for a year with the First Marine Division. I was in the infantry. So I had a lot of experience with combat. And we're dealing with an entirely different situation here. It didn't take me long after I was in Vietnam to figure out what was actually going on there. It just another exploitation of some innocent people. But in this case here, what we're fighting here, I couldn't relate anything to how it was in Vietnam as to what's going on here. We're fighting establishment here.

We're supposed to be dealing directly with the Alexian Brothers. We want to deal with the Sheriff. We don't want to deal with the government. We don't want to deal with the state. We don't want to deal with the county. We want to deal with the Alexian Brothers.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: That's about 30 rounds.

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Yeah. We want to deal with the Alexian Brothers. So the government has been intervening. We know that the CIA is out there and the FBI. And supposedly, they're giving those people information or advice how to handle a thing. And they're actually calling the shots. Like, the Alexian Brothers. I'm sure, all the pressure they're getting from the church and everything.

And if they are what they profess to be, they wouldn't allow for any bloodshed. They wouldn't allow for something that they got for nothing, especially when it's our property. They would give it to us without question. But because of the government intervention here, they're trying to-- first, they tried the waiting out tactic and starve them and that kind of thing. So all we have to do is be strong and hold our position. One thing that we have that they don't have is they dangle this thing, death, over our heads.

Death doesn't mean to us what it means to them. Death is the climax of life. It's when we meet the one who created us, the one who created all of this, the Earth. We meet him then. And if we die fighting for our people to recognize this-- to have the communication with the creator that we had before the white man came, before they took it away from us. If we have to die to restore this, it's not a sacrifice on our behalf.

It's a commitment. It's our responsibility. And we're not hurting ourselves to die this way. A lot of people say, well, those guys are dying for a worthless building. There's no reason for it. It's not the building we're dying for. It's our people and our religion, our way of life. That is so important.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Are there any terms under which you would come out of this building?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Yeah. If they guarantee us the title to this property to the Menominee people. Like I said before, when we first come in here, it was my intention to come in here to provide an opportunity to get our treaties into court, to get them recognized. When they bring charges on us for this, we can use this as our defense. And with the eyes of the nation upon them, we expect the United States government to honor the very laws that they wrote.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: How long has it been since there was a gunfire exchange like the one going on outside right now?

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: A couple of weeks. No, I take that back. Other than the other confrontation with the National Guard last weekend-- just a minute. Yeah. Who's shooting?

SPEAKER: The guard out there.

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Oh, he probably didn't. He probably didn't. Vigilantes. Close the door. It's not for that window there.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Does this window here face the--

MEL CHEVALIER, JR.: Woodline right back there.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Menominee Warrior Society spokesman, Mel Chevalier, Jr. The atmosphere in and around the Gresham novitiate continues to be tense. 300 white members of the Concerned Citizens Committee in the area of the monastery have extended to this weekend their deadline for the National Guard to end that nearly four-week-old occupation. After that time, they say they will act on their own to clear the armed Menominee Warrior Society from the religious estate. For National Public Radio, this is Kevin McKiernan.

As the Menominee Warrior Society occupation lengthened from a few days to a week and then into several weeks, it was clear that the original demand of reclaiming the ancestral treaty land for an Indian hospital was only one of many Warrior Society grievances. In fact, it wasn't long before the Warrior Society accepted professional advice that the Alexian estate was too cumbersome for a hospital, and that it was better suited for an Indian school.

But as it happened at Wounded Knee in 1973, the novitiate seizure came to act as a forum for issues much larger than itself. To the Warriors, the five weeks of attention generated by the occupation gave conditions of health, unemployment, and education among Menominees, an erring they had not had. However, on a day-to-day level, it was, as one observer described it, a painful chess game.

The lives of farmers and others in the immediate area of the abbey were disrupted. An Indian inside the estate and a white snowmobiler outside the National Guard perimeter around it were wounded by gunfire. The Alexians, a health service-oriented order of Catholic brothers, came under tremendous pressure from the state governor's office, from the National Council of Churches in Washington, and from many segments of the public.

In the end, they dropped their demand for $750,000 and allowed the property to be deeded to the Menominee tribe for $1 and future undetermined considerations. The Alexians had been donated the 237-acre estate in 1954 reportedly by an heiress to the Nabisco cracker fortune. In 1968, after new professions to the order had dwindled, the brothers vacated the estate. Several times, they had made attempts since then to sell the property, once to the Wisconsin Highway Patrol for the asking price of over $1 million.

The patrol was seeking a training ground for state troopers, but apparently found the price or the estate itself unsuitable. The Alexians continued its upkeep reportedly at $40,000 a year and maintained a caretaker near the 64-room mansion. He and his family were driven from their home when the estate was seized early January 1st. Throughout the 34 days which followed the seizure, the chess game was played in and around the monastery.

In the first few days of the standoff, 300 local Sheriff's deputies dueled with the Warriors. Gunfire exchanges were heavy. Tensions mounted in the white community. And then on January 7th, in an effort to calm the atmosphere in and around Gresham, Wisconsin Governor Patrick Lucey activated the National Guard. Peaceful negotiations commenced. Heat and electricity were restored. Food and medical supplies were permitted through the blockade and into the monastery.

However, the occupation continued. And after about 10 days, whites in the area began to pressure the National Guard for a forceful settlement. When no settlement was forthcoming, the pressures escalated to threats and ultimatums. Unlike the FBI agents and federal marshals at Wounded Knee however, the National Guard more and more became a buffer between angry Indians inside and angry whites outside the seized compound.

And unlike the federal agents, many of whom had volunteered for assignment against Indians on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, national guardsmen did not seem to be where they were out of choice. They were weekend warriors who no doubt wanted simply to do their job and to go home. And if there should be tribute paid to someone for ensuring that loss of life in that very explosive standoff did not occur, the tribute should be paid to National Guard commander Hughes Simonson.

Simonson bent over backwards in conciliation efforts, both toward the adamant occupiers and the enraged citizens of Shawano County. The control of his men was exemplary, especially in view of their double defensive role. When firefights broke out between armed snowmobilers and armed Indians, the National Guard was often in the middle defending both flanks. Colonel Simonson's posture continued to be as it had been when his troops arrived the first day.

It was then he told reporters, the abbey is not worth one drop of human blood. Throughout the confrontation, he remained a deft diplomat working behind the scenes, trying in public to satisfy both sides. The latter task often called for attempting to say opposite things simultaneously, to generalize, and not to be specific. It was often maddening to newsmen.

SPEAKER: Colonel, do you see the build up of American Indian Movement supporters here making this a possible tinderbox under the present conditions around Gresham?

HUGHES SIMONSON: I'd rather not comment on that. I haven't evaluated it. I don't know what the situation is as far as that's concerned. No comment on that. I know what we're doing. Everyone else knows what we're doing. The people in the abbey know what we're doing. To me, that's the important thing.

SPEAKER: Do you feel negotia--

HUGHES SIMONSON: Communications with the abbey.

SPEAKER: Do you feel negotiations are progressing effectively at this point?

HUGHES SIMONSON: They definitely are progressing.

SPEAKER: What is the direction you're taking right now? Where are you--

HUGHES SIMONSON: The direction toward an honorable settlement. That's the only direction we've ever taken.

SPEAKER: Colonel, could you respond to the statement which was made yesterday, the fears of the Warriors inside that there would be an attack by the National Guard?

HUGHES SIMONSON: No. I don't think that they fear that at all. They're Warriors and they have no fear.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Colonel Simonson made that statement in mid-January. Similar statements followed every day. It took patience. But in the end, it proved to be a wise policy, one which perhaps saved the National Guard and others from potential tragedies like that in Kent State or Attica. Stakes in the chess game were the highest on February 1st when Governor Lucey called a press conference in Madison at the state capitol.

There he announced that he no longer believed a negotiated settlement was possible. Lucey then ordered the National Guard strength doubled, bringing the cordon of soldiers to 850. He then ordered armored personnel carriers and a tank to firmly seal off the novitiate perimeter. Just a day earlier, in a last ditch negotiation attempt, Colonel Simonson allowed several new mediators to enter the abbey to speak with the Warrior Society. American Indian Movement leader Dennis Banks himself, one of many mediators in the past, elaborated.

DENNIS BANKS: Father Groppi, and Father John Garvey, and Attorney Bob Bryan, and Marlon Brando made a commitment to stay in there and to help develop proposals through negotiations. And to stay in there, if it meant dying with the Warriors, then so be it-- that they were willing to take those chances and stay until the very end. I think that in the event that there was no alternative but to go in there. From the governor's point of view, he was going to take it by force. And I think my commitment is to go inside and be with those Warriors.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: But the building was not stormed. And on February 2nd, only a day after the governor's announcement, Warrior Society Attorney Bob Bryan revealed that a settlement was in fact at hand.

BOB BRYAN: A settlement is not contingent upon amnesty. These brave Warriors, men and women, are willing to die for what they believe in. And if they can get amnesty, they're willing to go to jail for it.

SPEAKER: At this point, they consider this a victory inside?

BOB BRYAN: Definitely. 100% a victory. And they're very pleased. And their hearts are, I think, one of joy, peace, and love. And tremendous amount of satisfaction that there has been so much understanding that has come out of this among the non-Indian world.

SPEAKER: Do you feel there will be a peaceful evacuation? Tempers in Shawano County are very high. Do you expect gunfire tonight? Do you expect a difficult evening?

BOB BRYAN: We expect this to be the most difficult evening. The Colonel has assured us that he will step up security measures around the perimeter. I think if there's any bloodshed tonight, it will certainly be very unfortunate because all that these people want is peace. All the Warrior Society has wanted from the beginning is peace. And I think it will be very unfortunate. And I hope that the citizenry of this community, the Shawano area, Gresham area, will look at this as Christians and as people, with love in their hearts rather than bitterness and hatred.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Are there very many people in numbers in Shawano County who are prepared to do that?

BOB BRYAN: I'm sure there are.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Can you give me some estimate how many men would pick up a gun and take the law into their own hands?

BOB BRYAN: Oh, I know of probably 2,500 to 3,000 that have offered themselves.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Have offered themselves to the Concerned Citizens Movement and the White American Movement?

BOB BRYAN: That is correct.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: From some National Guard reports, it would appear that there may have been hundred or 200 who were armed and on snowmobiles who were assaulting the abbey the last night before the evacuation.

BOB BRYAN: I won't answer that.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: A few hours after Attorney Bryan's statement, Alexian Brother Maurice Wilson confirmed that the novitiate would in fact go to the Menominee tribe.

MAURICE WILSON: The Alexian Brothers care. We have been serious about caring for the past six centuries. Our purpose has been and will continue to be to save life and to raise the physical and spiritual quality of life. We, the Alexian Brothers, have searched our hearts in order to understand all sides of this conflict. We have listened with an open mind. We ask all concerned and interested people to do the same.

This action is also in keeping with the Alexian Brother's efforts and negotiations begun more than a year ago to dedicate the novitiate property for use by the Indians. These efforts were thwarted by the occupation of the novitiate. During the 30 to 60 days that remain before the Menominee regain tribal status, seven trustees will manage the property until the new tribal government is elected.

The time has come for all persons in the Shawano and Menominee area to heal its wounds and to ensure a constructive outcome from this distasteful conflict. An atmosphere of trust and Christian forgiveness must be promoted.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Brother Maurice Wilson of the Alexian Order. Later the same day, February 2nd, Richard Stadelman, Shawano County district attorney, met with reporters.

RICHARD STADELMAN: They're making a brief statement. There'll be no question and answers at this time at all. We'll be leaving shortly. We emphasize that we had nothing to do whatsoever with these negotiations. We wish to stress that we disagree with the armed and violent methods employed to gain title to this property.

Since an evacuation is imminent, however, we as law enforcement officials strongly urge that there be no violence and that all unauthorized persons stay away from the perimeter area for their own protection. Criminal prosecutions are already in progress and arrests definitely will be made. Thank you.

SPEAKER: Will the Indians inside be arrested?

RICHARD STADELMAN: No comments at this time.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: The following day, 39 Indian men and women surrendered to the National Guard. They were then arrested by Shawano County authorities and Wisconsin State troopers. According to the Sheriff, several times that number escaped from the abbey sometime during the occupation. The arrested were all charged with gross misdemeanors, disorderly conduct, and criminal trespass to a building.

Five leaders were charged, in addition, with multiple felony counts. As of today, the leaders are still in jail awaiting trial. Actor Marlon Brando was not charged. And he met with reporters in Shawano the night of the evacuation.

MARLON BRANDO: These people are prisoners of war. And I think that they should be accorded the same accords that we treat other prisoners of war. And that all Indians-- this is not really a question of Menominees. It's not a question of Sioux or Papago or Onondaga. It's a question of all Indians and indigenous rights of people to maintain a life that is determined by their views and their values.

SPEAKER: What was it like in there, Marlon?

MARLON BRANDO: It was a little like Disneyland in the beginning. And then when we were up on the roof and the bullets started to fly all around us, then it was a sudden change of reality. It's the first time I was ever under fire.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Marlon Brando. Dr. Herbert Carr, a 48-year-old white physician who ministered to the Warrior Society inside the novitiate, was not charged either. However, subsequently, he was sentenced to 90 days in the county jail when he refused to testify under subpoena in the state investigation of the novitiate seizure. Just after the evacuation, Dr. Carr spoke with me about what he considered his most impressive experience inside the occupied compound.

HERBERT CARR: All the time that I was there, there was an eagle flying/soaring over the building. Every day I went out to pray, I saw this eagle. An eagle. Now the eagle is what we call in our traditional religion a helper. The eagle is one of the greatest helpers that you can get. And I'm quite sure that when the National Guard apprised him of the fact on several occasions that we did have an eagle as a helper, they didn't believe it. When they finally came down and they saw that eagle, they thought a second time.

And it was beautiful to see the expression on these people's faces when they actually saw this eagle soaring over the monastery. Well, he was sent there by a great spirit to let us know that he was with us at all times. That's why we didn't have any real problems out there. That's why we succeeded.

KEVIN MCKIERNAN: Dr. Herbert Carr. And for one perspective on the seizure at Gresham, this is Kevin McKiernan.