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SPEAKER 1: Mid 60s, Sunday highs around 75. And then back for the beginning of the week, we've got mostly cloudy skies predicted here, a 30% chance of showers and thunderstorms, highs 75 to 80. On Tuesday, slight chance of rain but warmer weather coming for the beginning of next week and highs around 80. It is 55 degrees and partly sunny here in downtown Saint Paul.

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GARY EICHTEN: And good morning. I'm Gary Eichten, inviting you to stay tuned for Midday here on Minnesota Public Radio News. Coming up this first hour, Minnesota First District Congressman, Tim Walz, 2,400 Red Bulls are on their way to Iraq. We'll focus on their mission and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We'll get started right after the news.

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LAKSHMI SINGH: From NPR News in Washington, I'm Lakshmi Singh. CIA Chief Leon Panetta says the US should keep troops in Iraq past the 2011 deadline set for US forces to withdraw if the Iraqi government requests it. Panetta spoke during a Senate hearing on his nomination to serve as the next Secretary of Defense.

LEON PANETTA: If confirmed, my number one job will be to ensure that America continues to have the best trained, the best equipped, and the strongest military in the world in order to make sure that we protect our country.

LAKSHMI SINGH: The head of NATO says he firmly believes Afghanistan's security will not get worse when American troops start leaving next month from that country. And Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen says the US allies will still be there. Earlier, Germany urged the US not to withdraw too many troops from Afghanistan in July. President Obama has not yet disclosed how many troops he plans to pull out the summer.

Vice President Biden and top congressional lawmakers are resuming talks on raising the government's debt ceiling. NPR's Giles Snyder reports pressure is growing as the August 2nd deadline looms to keep the government out of default.

GILES SNYDER: Lawmakers on both sides worry that time is running short. The Fitch credit rating agency is the latest to warn that it could consider cutting the US' rating if there's no progress by early August. White House Press Secretary Jay Carney says all sides know the government needs the power to continue borrowing.

JAY CARNEY: This is not about additional spending. This is about honoring the obligations that the United States government has made and the consequences of not raising the debt ceiling, as some of these rating agencies have suggested, would be severe.

GILES SNYDER: Republicans are demanding spending cuts before the debt limit is raised. Democrats warn, if they're too big and come too soon, the economic recovery could be harmed. Giles Snyder, NPR News, Washington.

LAKSHMI SINGH: The latest snapshot of the US trade deficit shows the gap narrowing in April by 6.7% to just under $44 billion. US companies sold more heavy machinery, computers, and telecommunications equipment overseas, which drove exports up to a record level. And imports from Japan fell more than 25% after its recent earthquake and tsunami. A much different picture in the US' trade deficit with China, which has grown 19.4%

The number of people filing for unemployment for the first time remains high. It's still hovering around 430,000. The Labor Department's four-week average, a less volatile measure, has dropped again, though, to 424,000. That level is still higher than it was earlier in the year reflecting a slowdown in the jobs market. At last check on Wall Street, the Dow was up 66 points at 12,115. And the NASDAQ had gained 12. It's at 2,687. You're listening to MPR News.

SPEAKER 2: Support for news comes from Cargill, working with customers around the world to connect ideas to opportunities across food, agriculture, finance, and industry. Cargill.com.

JOHN WANAMAKER: From Minnesota Public Radio News, I'm John Wanamaker. South Carolina Congressman Joe Wilson is backing former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty in his campaign for the Republican presidential nomination. Wilson will be the co-chairman of Pawlenty's campaign in the Palmetto State. Wilson attracted attention several years ago after yelling "you lie" during a congressional speech by President Obama.

FEMA officials say Governor Mark Dayton's request for individual disaster assistance for the May 22nd tornado is still under review. The agency has approved Dayton's request for federal disaster aid for Hennepin and Anoka counties, meaning the state is now eligible for federal public assistance. Preliminary damage assessments estimated more than $16 million in costs and damage to public infrastructure in Hennepin and Anoka counties. FEMA assistance will pay for 75% of debris removal, emergency medical services and repair and replacement of damaged public facilities.

FEMA spokesperson Holly Stephens says there is no timeline for deciding whether to approve the state's request to aid individuals as well.

HOLLY STEPHENS: They look at the insurance coverage. They look at the overall impact of the disaster to the community, and also looks at the capacity of the state to be able to respond, as well as the local municipalities.

JAY CARNEY: Stephens says both property owners and renters would be eligible for disaster assistance, but how much they'd receive depends on their individual circumstances. North Dakota's Public Service Commission has approved a site plan for EnXco Development Corporation to build 100 wind turbines in southeastern North Dakota. EnXco planned to sell the wind power to Excel, but the utility dropped out of the project in April over fears it would harm rare bird species. EnXco and Xcel are suing each other over Xcel's decision to drop out of the project. This is Minnesota Public Radio News.

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GARY EICHTEN: And good morning. Welcome to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio News. I'm Gary Eichten. New York Times had a troubling story the other day, reprinted in both Twin Cities' dailies. The essence of the story was that US troops are facing the prospect of deadly attacks as they withdraw from Iraq. All US troops are supposed to leave Iraq by the end of the year, and most of them will be traveling down a 160-mile road through the desert to Kuwait, making for presumably very inviting targets for the militants.

Now, while attention has largely shifted to the war in Afghanistan, the danger to US troops in Iraq was underscored again this week with news that yet another Minnesota soldier has been killed in Iraq, Army Sergeant Emilio Campo of Madelia. He was killed in action on Sunday. On Monday, six US troops were killed in a rocket attack, the deadliest day for US troops in two years.

And 2,400 Army National Guard troops, members of the famed 34th Infantry Red Bulls division, most of them from Minnesota, they're on their way to the war zone. They'll be responsible for protecting those convoys running between Kuwait and Iraq. During this hour of Midday, we're going to catch up on the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, for that matter.

Joining us this morning is Minnesota First District Democratic Congressman Tim Walz, who served 24 years in the Army National Guard. Congressman Walz is the highest ranking enlisted soldier to ever serve in the US Congress, having retired as a Command Sergeant Major. Congressman Tim Walz joins us from Mankato this morning. And if you'd like to join our conversation about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, give us a call 651-227-6000. 651-227-6000. Toll free number 1-800-242-2828. Or you can use our online address. Go to mprnews.org and click on Send A question.

Congressman, welcome back to Midday. Thanks so much for joining us.

TIM WALZ: Thanks for having me, Gary.

GARY EICHTEN: Not to be an alarmist, but will this Red Bull's mission-- could it be a lot more dangerous than many of us had assumed? I mean, you keep hearing, well, the war is over.

TIM WALZ: Yeah. No, I think, and these guys aren't certainly thinking that. They are well-trained, and they assume the worst, hope for the best, but take nothing for granted. And I think they are fully aware, as their leadership certainly is, that this is a dangerous time. Anytime you're extracting forces it presents some vulnerabilities, and you need to make sure that you're alleviating those on every case.

And I'm pretty convinced that's why this unit was tasked with this important mission. They proved themselves beyond anyone's expectations, I think, in their single longest deployment of any unit since World War II, and they did it with a professionalism that has gained a strong reputation in the Pentagon. So I don't think people are screaming alarmist. These guys certainly understand the risks, but they are well-trained. They're prepared for this, and they will do it with every bit of professionalism to minimize those risks.

GARY EICHTEN: You mentioned, Congressman, that the division has already served longer in Iraq than anybody else. Why are they getting sent back?

TIM WALZ: Well, it was part of the rotation schedule. And the Pentagon makes these decisions based on troop needs and things. I do, though, suspect to a certain degree the professionalism and the expertise, the readiness of this group is well-known. And when it came up, I think they felt like they could handle this mission, I think. Obviously it's a nod towards their professionalism, and they will do it. That's the one hallmark of our military forces. Give them a mission, and they will complete it.

Our job needs to be to make sure the mission we give them is winnable. It's necessary, and it's done in a manner that they can accomplish in the safest way as possible. So I think it was a combination of those things. And I can tell you, being at a lot of these departure ceremonies over the last several weeks, they're prepared to go. They're prepared to do what's asked of them. And I think there's a sense of pride in that. Basically, this will be winding this thing down.

GARY EICHTEN: What is the situation in Iraq? I mean, we really just don't hear very much about it? Is mission accomplished? The war over?

TIM WALZ: Well, I certainly don't think I would say that. I'm not sure that very many people could define what that mission was. It's certainly changed over the years, and I've made no secret about it that I don't think we, as a nation, and certainly the Congress did not discuss this in the detail necessary before we got involved with Iraq. With that being said, the mission had evolved into one, where Iraq becomes a stable partner in a volatile region, acts as a buffer to Syria, Iran, and others that might not be as good of actors.

With that being said, Iraq is still very volatile as we saw with our troops this week and the assassinations of Iraqi leadership and political figures, that the fight to fill that vacuum is still there. And those unintended consequences of US involvement in this are going to be felt for years to come. So I think what's been accomplished is every mission given to US forces has been accomplished perfectly. But with that being said, the Iraqis are still ultimately responsible for their own security in this transition phase makes them very vulnerable at this point as well as our troops.

This is a logistical operation of almost unimaginable proportions. I tell people that, when they think, let's just bring them home or whatever, it's the equivalent of packing up every single citizen, building, car, and piece of equipment in Mankato and moving it to the other side of the world. At the same time, people are shooting at you. And at the same time, you need to keep the institutions running here the schools, the police force, the firefighters. Very, very complex. And that's what's going to be these Red Bull's job, is to make sure that comes off like clockwork.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, all the troops are supposed to be out of Iraq by the end of the year. But incoming Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said today that, if the Iraqi government asks for troops to hang around, we should say yes. Do you agree with that?

TIM WALZ: Well, I'm really torn. And that is the true question. And it's one that we spend a lot of time on right now. The problem is going to be that there's no Iraqi politician that has the political will or the courage to say that because they're caught in the bind, that if they ask for that, they're going to be under intense pressure back home. I think they may need it still. But I have to be honest with you, Gary. My point has always been what is in US national interest? What is in the best interest of the US?

And I can tell you, my constituents here in the first district, they want us to wrap this up professionally, safely. They know it's our sons and daughters, husbands and wives that are going to do it. They want it done responsibly, but they want it done. So any talk of extending that mission, I think most of us realize there's going to be a continued presence. And to say that we've shifted from combat forces to logistical troops, they're the same soldiers. These guys were fighting in 2004, and now they're being asked to transition out.

So that's a bit of a misnomer. So I do think there will be the need for at least some presence on the ground. But I think we need to be very, very clear what that role is, what they should accomplish, and what were asking. This thing's approaching the trillion-dollar mark in terms of treasure, 4,400-plus plus a young man from Madelia this week. The American Public has sacrificed a lot for Iraq. And I got to be honest, people are telling me it's time for them to do it.

GARY EICHTEN: We are talking about the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, for that matter. Our guest is Minnesota First District Congressman Tim Walz, who himself spent 24 years in the military. He has joined us today to talk about the wars that the US is involved in. I'd love to have you join our conversation. 651-227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828. Online address again, mprnews.org. When you get there, click on Send a Question.

Congressman, you were opposed to the troop surge in Iraq, serious questions about getting involved in the first place. In retrospect, here we are the troops, at least theoretically, will be leaving at the end by the end of the year. Was it worth it? Saddam Hussein is gone. Iraq at least has the patina of a Democratic government. Some say it's become a kind of beacon of freedom that the Bush administration frequently spoke of. Was it worth it?

TIM WALZ: Well, I think history is yet to speak on that. I think we're looking at it from act two of a multi-act play that's going to play out in Iraq. I certainly would never-- the idea of the US surging forces to try and create that window of opportunity to provide stability, my question was wasn't ever whether we could do that or not. It's whether the Iraqis would seize upon it and make any use of it.

And at this time, I don't think it's yet to be seen. I think there's still massive corruption inside the Iraqi government. They've got 30% unemployment. We've been training their police forces for time that I-- they keep telling us they're almost trained up. I'm like, if they don't have PhDs in security forces by now, I don't know when they're going to.

Because I know how long it takes to do this. We can take a raw troop off the street, send them to Fort Benning. And by the end of summer, they come back as functioning basic entry infantry soldiers. And so I'm not yet going to pass judgment on that. My take has been that, once we were involved in this, I've always said that I would fully support making sure that our troops had the equipment and the things necessary.

Last week was a good example, and I had many heated conversations with my colleagues, who I think brought up a good resolution, saying that we don't have enough information on Libya. We need more information. The president should provide that, and that we should go back to our constituents and be able to explain that. And I said, you're right about that. But those questions were not asked in Iraq. And in fact, if you asked them, you were said you were cutting and running. You weren't supporting that.

So I'm still deeply skeptical of why this mission was necessary for US national interests. I do not deny Saddam Hussein was a bad guy, definitely oppressive of his people. But I think what we've seen, at least in the Arab Spring, and again, that story is not all written yet, that we have these popular uprisings that have the potential to have far greater impact on these societies than a forced intervention by the US to plant the seed of democracy.

No matter how good that is of an intention, it's hard to make it work without them taking ownership. And I'm still not convinced that the stability-- I mean, the Al-Sadr is still there. The Shia-Sunni split is still there. The mischievous nature of the Iranians in cross-border incursions is still there. So I think that's yet to be written.

GARY EICHTEN: Are you surprised, Congressman, that the war or the situation, or how are we supposed to describe it now, the situation in Iraq really receives so little attention? After all the attention, all the deaths, all the money spent, it really gets almost no attention at this point.

TIM WALZ: Yes, I am. And I have to be honest, Gary, I'm disappointed. I certainly don't want us to dwell on the past. But I think it's important for us to, when people say, well, that's in the past, don't look at it. That's a recipe for disaster. That's how you repeat. I do think we learned a little bit, possibly. And I know some of your listeners are saying not much with Libya, maybe. But I can tell you Congress is much more responsive as the check and balance on that. Whether we're able to do anything or not will be yet to be seen.

But yes, I am disappointed. And I don't say that the public is disregarding the sacrifice. I just think, when you've got 1% of the population that's serving, it certainly isn't out of sight, out of mind. Not that they don't care, but they're worrying about their jobs. They're worrying about getting the kids to soccer. It's summer and those types of things and what we put into this.

My concern is, and I've said this all along, this may be approaching. As I said, I think the number from CBO was $805 billion. That's not including the decades long of care that we're going to need to do in the VA, where I've been focusing a lot of my attention, TBI, PTSD, employment, transition back home. I would think there would be more attention, I have to be honest with you, Gary. But I don't think it's because the American people don't care. I just think that such a small number of people are involved in actually doing it.

GARY EICHTEN: Should we reinstitute the draft so that the sacrifice is shared more broadly?

TIM WALZ: Well, I know that's an argument that's out there. I personally am not a fan of that. I do not think we should. I think the volunteer force is highly professional. And it's not to say that a conscripted soldier would not adapt. I just do not think that's the right way to go. I do think there should be an honest discussion. And as we're discussing debt ceiling, I know we just heard about on the news there and those types of things.

Be sure you understand that a part of that debt, a nice chunk of it was created by this. And it's going to continue to add to it because VA services are expensive to wounded soldiers. And I think, in that regard, there should be a little more of a discussion of how you're going to pay for this. I know I've heard the discussion of people said, put it right on your withholding tax of what this money is going for. That balances the budget. It doesn't add to the debt. And it lets people know, because all of this money that's being spent goes to the debt not paid for.

And so I think there's ways to make the public more aware of this. But if it appears like you don't have to pay for it, and it appears like you don't have a personal stake in it, it becomes less important. I really do think there is some truth in that.

GARY EICHTEN: Talking about the situation in Iraq, situation in Afghanistan with Minnesota First District Congressman Tim Walz this morning. Love to have you join our conversation, 651-227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828. Online address is mprnews.org. Eric is on the line from White Bear Lake. Eric, go ahead please. Eric?

ERIC: In Afghanistan and 10 years in the regular Air Force stationed overseas. And Congressman made a comment that it's time for Iraq to step up and start taking care of their security. Well, what about Japan? What about South Korea? What about Germany? What about UK and all of the other bases that we got stationed overseas? When is it their turn to step up, take care of their security?

Because of our debt, I don't think we can afford to keep military stationed all over the world. And I think our national interest, given the debt, needs to shrink between to what is between the Canadian and Mexican border and the East and West Coast.

GARY EICHTEN: All right. Thanks, Eric.

TIM WALZ: Well, it's a fair point Eric brings up. I think that the question is always when you have a forward military presence in the long run, what is the interest of having that for national security? I don't think many make the argument anymore that the troops stationed in Germany are there for protection of German sovereignty, or, if you will, the free Western Bloc or whatever. I think it's more of a staging area for operations to more distant areas, specifically the Middle East, Africa and so forth.

So I think that he's right that we do have to assess this. I think it's right if you're looking at long-term debt and fiscal responsibility and fiscal stability as part of national security, which I do. I think Eric's right. The situation I have, though, is I think we always have to keep in mind there is a temptation to collapse back within ourselves, to take care of our stuff inside our borders. Unfortunately, the world is much smaller now. It doesn't recognize those borders.

Cyber attacks can be carried out from anywhere. Of course, we saw with 9/11 and other things that physical terrorist attacks can be carried out. And sometimes the US has to have that reach. Now, whether it's the most cost efficient to have a military reach or not is the absolute question we should be asking. And I think it's fair to ask for savings. The Simpson-Bowles Commission found $1 trillion in savings in the Defense Department that they say will not weaken our national security posture one bit.

So it's a good point. I think, though, that we have to understand that our leadership role in the world is going to have us be a little more. And I know people say, well, why always us? Well, one is we can, and we're willing. And countless generations of Americans have literally laid down their lives for freedoms of people that, not only aren't their neighbors, they're not even their fellow citizens, they're in other countries. And so I think it's a balance. Eric brings up a good point, and it's part of the discussion that he is right in forcing us as representatives in Congress to have.

GARY EICHTEN: Are our allies, specifically NATO, pulling their fair share of the burden?

TIM WALZ: Well, I think they're trying, and they're facing-- I mean, this has been a global debt crisis. This isn't a new phenomenon. I know we get into the politics of this, that it started with the inauguration of President Obama. These are structural problems economically that have existed for decades. And the same is true elsewhere. And so I think they are. I think there have been questions at times whether they were fulfilling as much as they could have.

But I do think there's a commitment. I keep hearing that this Libya mission is a NATO mission. It's led by NATO, things like that. But when it comes down to it, a lot of times I think people know it, the bulk of the force there is going to be us, and the bulk of the money is going to be. I think these are fair questions. I do, though, think and I hear this all the time, I'm sure your callers, Gary, tell you this, that the first thing people want cut in our budget is foreign aid. They want all foreign aid cut.

And regardless of how small that amount is, I think we have a responsibility to say, what are we using our foreign aid on? Are we strengthening the Democratic institutions in Egypt that would make a good post-Mubarak Democratic Egypt that we didn't have to land troops in to make happen? That might be a good investment.

But those are fair questions. And I think NATO is probably, but it does come down to it. We have always had that capability. But the caller may be right. We maybe don't have that right now.

GARY EICHTEN: What about Afghanistan, Congressman? The Obama administration is trying to decide what to do in Afghanistan. The schedule calls for at least some initial troop withdrawals this summer. I guess the final target date being 2014. Should that be accelerated?

TIM WALZ: Well, you want to base it on, again, like the situation in Iraq, of making sure the drawdown does not simultaneously weaken what you're trying to do for transition. With that being said, Gary, and I have been on several occasions to Afghanistan, talked extensively with people on the ground, and I've tasked my staff. We spent an inordinate amount of time on this. And as you said, the public eye can hold a town hall on Afghanistan and not many people will come.

I still see it as one of my primary responsibilities. I am not as optimistic as the Obama administration. I don't think they are going to make a significant commitment in drawdown in forces. And I'm going to look and see if that's because they feel that doing any more would put our troops at harm, certainly not what we want to do. But I can tell you, the American Public, myself, of spending a lot of time and looking at a lot of detailed information from the Pentagon out to the CIA, I have grave reservations about what that mission is and what can be done.

If the Iraqis haven't stood up enough, as I think maybe they should have, I certainly don't believe the Afghans can. And I keep coming back to, Gary, this is America's greatest strength. And our Achilles heel is that we are incredibly optimistic about solving problems. And when we put a plan in place, we look at alternatives. We execute that plan. And I think that's happened in Afghanistan and everything.

Even if it's gone right as we thought so, the variables that are out of our control, like President Karzai and his government not holding up what they need to do, can undermine everything we do. So I don't want to sound too pessimistic, but I am certainly not optimistic, Gary, on Afghanistan. And I can tell you that not a week goes by that we're not pressing.

And for your listeners, last week, the president had both the Republicans on one day and the Democrats up to the White House to have a wide ranging discussion. This discussion on Afghanistan was very heated. And it was very contentious between the Democratic caucus, many of us, the members and the president, and where he sees this going.

GARY EICHTEN: You mentioned Afghan President Karzai. Apparently, he at least one point referred to American troops in Afghanistan as occupiers.

TIM WALZ: Yeah.

GARY EICHTEN: How is it that we can ask those same troops to fight and die, and at the same time be labeled as occupiers?

TIM WALZ: Absolutely, and I understand President Karzai says things for domestic consumption and things for international consumption. It's the same dilemma, Gary, that's in Iraq. That I think the Iraqi leadership doesn't believe they're ready to stand up. And I think they believe that there could be some significant disruptions and security issues. But they also can't ask us to stay on, and nor can we maybe even do so in the current situation. So it's created that dilemma.

And this goes back to what I said. If you don't have a clear mission when you start these things, this is the dilemma you can get into. It's the concern that I have with Libya. And I will question this president as much as I question President Bush. And President Obama has continued on with the status of forces agreement that President Bush put into place. And I think it's very hard to ask that.

And I can tell you, Gary, and I know that we as a government we have to question these, and at some point we need a United front forward. But when I talk to the on-the-ground enlisted guys in Afghanistan, I don't ever get a feeling that they trust their Afghani counterparts. And I got to be honest, I'm not certain. I certainly don't blame them for that. And that is a real dangerous situation.

So I'm continuing to push on this. I'm going to make one more trip sometime coming up, again, to look in detail. We spent a lot of time looking at the classified documents and things. I'm not convinced US national interest is served with a small 5,000-person drawdown in a longer time frame. I think we need to take a hard look at that.

GARY EICHTEN: Talking about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Our guest is Minnesota First District Congressman Tim Walz. 24 years in the Army National Guard, highest ranking enlisted soldier to ever serve in the US Congress. He's joined us today to share his thoughts on what's happening in those two nations, where, well, a total of about 150,000 US troops are serving right now. If you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call 651-227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828. Our online address mprnews.org. When you get there, click on Send a Question. And we'll get to more of your questions in just a couple of minutes.

SPEAKER 3: Programming is supported by Travelers, leader of travelers edge, a collaborative program, including Admission Possible designed to make college and career success a reality for low-income, first generation students.

SPEAKER 4: Support for this program comes from Mall of America, presenting Jesse Ventura. Saturday, June 11 at 2:00 PM to sign copies of his latest book, 63 Documents the Government Doesn't Want You to Read. Mallofamerica.com for event details.

TOM CRANN: Later on All Things Considered, big box retailers have been able to fend off unionizing attempts so far. But an upcoming vote at a Target in New York City could change all that. I'm Tom Crann. That story and all the day's news, join me starting at 3:00.

JOHN WANAMAKER: From Minnesota Public Radio News, I'm Jon Wanamaker. Hundreds of people are fleeing northern Syria into Turkey as Syrian troops continue to fire on protesters. The United Nations is strongly urging Damascus to end the bloodshed. The UN Commissioner on Human Rights suggests that up to 1,000 people have been killed and over 10,000 detained in the violent protests.

Germany is voicing concern about the fate of Afghanistan. If the US pulls troops out too quickly, Defense Secretary Robert Gates is assuring allies there won't be any rush for the exits. His comment in Brussels came as President Obama prepares to announce soon just how many troops he will remove in July from among the 100,000 who are there now.

Six weeks after the last case, Minnesota's health officials are declaring the state's measles outbreak over. Officials are calling it the state's worst outbreak in years with 23 cases, including 14 children who had to be hospitalized. There were no deaths. Three Democratic Wisconsin State senators targeted for recalls will have to stand for election this summer. The board that oversees elections there decided not to invalidate petitions circulated against them, even though they rejected thousands of signatures they found were fraudulent or collected by misleading means.

Three Democratic and six Republican senators were targeted for the positions they took on Republican Governor Scott Walker's divisive proposal, taking away collective bargaining rights from most state workers. This is Minnesota Public Radio News.

GARY EICHTEN: And this is Midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio News. Good morning, Gary Eichten here. It's about 28 minutes before 12:00. And over the noon hour, we have another installment in our Bright Ideas series, some interesting and provocative thinkers around the region. Stephen Smith sits them down in the UBS Forum, grills them on their bright ideas. Today, we're going to hear from PZ Myers, a biologist who writes extensively about science and politics.

So we'll get to that over the noon hour. This hour, we're talking about the situation in Afghanistan and Iraq, particularly timely, we thought, with the fact that 2,400 Red Bulls are on their way to Iraq. There's a debate, as you heard in the news, debate underway in the administration as to whether to accelerate the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

Minnesota Congressman Tim Walz is our guest. And if you would like to join our conversation, 651-227-6000, 1-800-242-2828. Online address, mprnews.org. Click on Send a Question. I want to get to more listener questions. But one more, if I may, for you, Congressman. You're expressing some reservations about continued large troop presence in Afghanistan. What about the morality of allowing the Taliban to return to power in Afghanistan, especially given their human rights record?

TIM WALZ: Yeah. It certainly goes into our thinking, Gary. I was very, very anti-Taliban if you will, long before these wars started and clear back in the '90s from the infamous soccer stadium massacre of women to the destruction of the Buddha statues. This is an extremist group of folks. The one thing that we have found, though, over our 10-year involvement, it's certainly not a monolithic group.

The Taliban is different in different areas. It has a local support in areas that there's nothing we're going to do to shake that. And I think and I have felt for quite some time now, that it was certainly in our interest to try and attempt to talk to these folks. I feel very strongly about exactly what you're getting at. If we leave and it reverts back and innocent people are killed, what is our moral responsibility?

Because whether it's Libya or the Sudan or wherever it's at, this is always the challenge for us of when do we get involved? When do we get involved in humanitarian aid? When do we get involved militarily to the prevention of innocent deaths? So I certainly do take that into consideration. As we talk about this, I am starting to see some glimmers of hope that the Taliban, as I said, not a monolithic regime, if you will, but one that has realized that the road that al-Qaeda would like to take them on is certainly not the road they would like to.

And I think we may have to come to grips with the post-US involvement. Government may not be a sectarian democracy, functioning democracy, but it might be one that respects the human rights of people in the way that fits with their culture. And so it's a challenge, though, and it's certainly something I would not discount from our thinking.

GARY EICHTEN: As you think about the situation in Afghanistan, does it matter that Bin Laden is dead now?

TIM WALZ: Well, I think it matters, if not operationally, certainly psychologically. I think there's no doubt in looking at some of the information and some of the things that I've seen that have been gained that this was a very vertically integrated operation, if you will, meaning that he was still heavily engaged. I think it came as no surprise to many of us that he was in Pakistan. As I continue to say for many years, with friends like that, who needs enemies at certain times?

So this is far more complex. I think there was an argument to be made. I know George will, who was one of the proponents of it, that over-the-horizon type of thing using banking investigators, using communications technologies, and then using quick strike forces to take out the folks who are doing this. And I think going back to the whole situation in Afghanistan was predicated on we had a failed state led by Omar and harboring Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda with the idea of taking a global reach to terrorism against Western democracies or countries they saw as threats.

With that being the case, I'm not so sure that same framework holds up. And I think many of your listeners, it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to say there aren't other failed states they could go to. What we saw was is this organization could be disrupted and with the head cut off, if you will, made it much more difficult. But I'm under no illusion that these folks aren't still trying to do this. I certainly want to make very clear that my concerns with the ongoing military operations certainly don't preclude me from wanting us to be aggressively targeting these folks who want to carry out these attacks. I just think we need to be smarter and more efficient about it.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's get back to listener questions for Minnesota First District Congressman Tim Walz. Bill, go ahead please.

BILL: Well, thank you very much. First of all, I'd like to thank Congressman Walz for his service to our country and as a Congressman.

TIM WALZ: Thank you, Bill.

BILL: I worked for the government at the VA, and I am on a day-off. I'm not doing this on government time. And this is just an opinion. But I work with a lot of Red Bulls there, and they're doing a wonderful job. And the honor and the pride they had from being Red Bulls is carrying over. One of the comments I'd like to make is that I've heard comments from veterans as well as people inside who like to apply for jobs in the government.

They have great difficulty with the USAID jobs application process. It's very cumbersome. It's time consuming. You have to be a computer geek to do it. And it would be nice if there was-- I know the Voc-Rehab people help the veterans do this. It would be nice to get some more veterans into the government. But if there was some mentor program or some kind of a program where somebody that knew how to use these USAID job apps could help a veteran.

TIM WALZ: Yeah. Well, thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks, Bill.

TIM WALZ: Thanks, Bill, and thanks for your service over at the VA. There's other places you could go to work, but you're not. Bill brought up a great point. He's right about this. The USA job app was to try and be, if you will, a full service, one-stop shop for government jobs or whatever. He's right. It's a clunky place to try and do that. And to be quite honest, this has been a problem, Gary. We have a significantly high unemployment rate amongst returning veterans for numerous reasons.

One of mine, as I think Bill brings up, is that these folks aren't getting both the out processing knowledge that they need. And our employers, who I think want to hire them, we're not marrying them up as much. It goes back to a problem that I see as my single core mission in Congress is trying to figure out how to cut down the gap, the transition between Department of Defense and active service and when you enter back into the private sector and the VA, that seamless transition.

I put forward a couple pieces of legislation to help with some tax credits and to smooth this process. But Bill's right. That's the ongoing cost of these wars, too. We've got about a 16% to 17% unemployment rate with these young veterans under age 30 when they come back. And that needs to be addressed because it's having not only-- one of the great cures to some of the issues that arise from combat is busy hands. Those idle hands and not having a job cause some of the problems.

And so he's right. We can do better on that. We can transition it. And I think it definitely belongs in this conversation about our ongoing mission, because they're going to be decades-long costs that are estimated to be somewhere above $1 trillion in care and benefits for these veterans. That makes $2 trillion in Iraq alone.

GARY EICHTEN: Jared, your comment please.

JARED: Yeah. I just want to say I'm actually a veteran. I was actually deployed over to Iraq myself. I've seen firsthand what we've done for them in Iraq. And I don't know, I just feel like, being that we were there, we can't just simply pull out. I mean, if we did pull out, I mean, that's just a disservice to-- whether we should have went in there or not, I mean, that's not the argument. We're there now, and we just can't pull out and do that to those people.

TIM WALZ: Yeah. No, Jared, well, thank you for your service. And you're right. And as I've said is that there has never been a question. When we put our forces on the ground, they're going to do good work. And there's no question whatsoever that the lives of the Iraqis were improved with the removal of Saddam Hussein and an opportunity. The problem or I think the dilemma we're at right now is, how do we transition and let them make the chance they've been given?

We have given them, and people like Jared have given an incredibly precious gift, a window of opportunity for freedom, self-governance, all of the things that we ascribe to the highest human achievements. Jared did that. He risked his life to provide that opening. Now, the question is, how do we have them seasoned? And it comes at some point when do we have to take the training wheels off? When do we let them?

And I agree with Jared. I certainly don't want to see Iraq fall into a chaotic situation, to be an unstable government in an unstable area. Because there is great potential that it could be a partner. It could be a trade, an economic partner. It could be a partner against terrorism, all the things we want to see, as could Israel, as could Egypt, as could a newly formed Tunisia, maybe Libya. We want to see those things go.

The question is, how do you best do that? So I'm certainly not advocating, Jared, that we disregard the Iraqis. There's going to be a transition happening. They're going to ramp up from 8,000 to about 17,000 State Department personnel who will take over from the embassy is where much of that will happen. I think the question is, how do we best do that? And how at some point? Because, don't forget, Iraq does have vast mineral wealth in the form of oil.

And I don't say that in any way disingenuously. It would certainly be good to have a trading partner that has oil. I think many of us didn't believe early on that that was going to be paid for by oil, that the war was going to be paid for. But Jared's point is well-taken. It's certainly one that we don't want to see. We don't want to abandon the incredible good work that's been done. And I don't think certainly anyone, no matter what the Iraqis do with this, for Jared and his colleagues who have given, they're not going to take away that honor that was done in doing it.

No matter how Iraq turns out in the future, what our forces did and what those troops on the ground did was provide an opportunity. And that in itself should be honored.

GARY EICHTEN: Steve, your next. Go ahead please.

STEVE: Good morning. I wanted to thank the Congressman for his service, too, but more, especially for coming on shows like this to explain what you do and for being a long-term thinker.

TIM WALZ: Thanks, Steve.

STEVE: And in that regard and with regard to your mention of the foreign aid and diplomacy monies being a small slice of the budget, I wonder if you could shed a little bit of light on how we wound up with this huge fortress of an embassy out in the desert in Iraq, whether that required a congressional vote or whether it was just a little line in the DOD reconstruction budget somewhere?

And if things ever go back to normal there, when they might welcome American diplomats just like any other, do we still own the standard embassy back on Embassy Row? Could we go back there and perhaps sell, or probably give them back this base as their security training base or something?

TIM WALZ: Yeah. Well, it's a great point. And I've actually been in this-- I don't know what to call it other than a monstrosity. You're right. This thing is billions of dollars. I think one of the things, and I think we certainly-- those people who say what's in the past is in the past, I will never agree with that type of thinking. We had massive problems with cost overruns, with money disappearing with contractors, many of them who fulfilled their jobs brilliantly, but many who did not.

And this thing was literally a runaway train in many cases. And I find it hard to understand, which I think your caller is talking about, Gary, too, is that we need to have a footprint that shows that it's cooperative other than this. Thing is not a footprint. This thing is a massive crater, if you will. It's just such a target. It's so big. It's such a distraction from this idea that we're not there anymore. And the Iraqis are doing it because of that.

So I am certainly willing. It was certainly not something we authorized. There were many provisions brought up, of course, were defeated that were not signed into law by President Bush over not having these permanent bases. And I understand your veteran listeners that are there saying, well, what do you consider permanent? I can tell you that this embassy is permanent. This thing is massive. It's blocks and blocks and blocks long.

Being a geography guy that I am, I was lost in there for a day, it felt like. So it's a bad situation. And I don't know. At some point, I think that footprint is going to have to be smaller on that side. But as I was just saying, that's going to be the home for this transition force as these soldiers leave, as the Red Bulls help pull these folks out and pull this equipment out and safely transition.

At the same time, there's going to be an influx of civilian folks going in. The contractors are certainly still going to be there in some large numbers in up to 17,000 State Department personnel. So those who say-- and again, back to the previous caller, we're certainly not leaving. We're certainly not necessarily drawing down the US presence. We're drawing down the military presence.

GARY EICHTEN: Talking about the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan with Minnesota First District Congressman Tim Walz. Love to have you join our conversation at 651-227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828. The online address mprnews.org. When you get there, click on Send a Question.

Back to Afghanistan, if we may. Congressman Walz, there was a Senate Foreign Relations Committee report, as I understand it, released yesterday, which said that all the aid that we've been providing Afghanistan over the years may have actually ended up doing more harm than good, if for no other reason than it increased dependency on the United States.

TIM WALZ: Yes.

GARY EICHTEN: Where does that leave us?

TIM WALZ: In a pickle, no less. It's one that I've been concerned about. I've told anecdotes that I've gotten from people that I've been over there. One was a road we were building up into a mountainous village or whatever, and it was an area that had very little activity in terms of attacks on us, IED attacks or whatever. And all of a sudden, as the started getting closer to completion, the attacks ramped up.

It turns out that it wasn't a disagreement with Americans. It wasn't a Taliban issue or whatever. The issue was the people in the mountainous areas didn't want the road connected to the regional center down below, because they still had wood and hadn't been deforested. And they were afraid people would come up from the low areas and take it. So we have this million-dollar road that actually caused instability in an area that the people did not want.

And I think that what's unfortunate is these are the types of things we've been asking. And this report is pretty damning in terms of what it's done. And this goes back-- again, I go back to, at what point do we have to have folks step up? And very honest, Gary, and I'm very careful because of the position I'm in, I have reservations, if I can put it that way, that the Karzai government is the right ones to do it because of this very same thing.

So yeah, it's not good. It's not good for our long range goal. If the idea was this aid was to build economic support, which would then in turn grow the economy, where folks would turn away from the Taliban or opium production or whatever you will, and move towards more mainstream economic activities, that simply doesn't appear to be happening.

GARY EICHTEN: Does the president and his top advisors, do they have a good grip on what's going on and what to do about what's going on?

TIM WALZ: Well, I'd like to think so. And this is a real challenge for me, as I said, is they have access. And I the one thing I do know is what I don't know. And I understand my limitations of where I'm at. But I've got a great staff. We have access to a lot of good material. I know the president has this, and these are smart people. But smart people get us into bad problems at times. And I'm not saying that I'm certain that they're wrong. I just have grave reservations.

And my problem, I have to be very honest, Gary, and this happened last week in the discussion we had, that it's a little more of a trust-us type of mentality. And I can tell you as a member of Congress, that is absolutely not the way to go. And my critiques of the trust us, Saddam has weapons of mass destruction and was involved in 9/11, I was screaming from the top of my lungs there that asked the questions, and I'm doing that now.

So I think what you can end up happening is you can get the best evidence. You can get the best advice. And sometimes it's just very, very hard to-- and I think, again, as I go back to that American trait, it's very hard to accept that we can't control every variable. And that it may not be the way we think it should be. And these are folks that are brilliant in how they anticipate these things.

But it's just as simple as that road, that road example. Or they actually had another road where they needed to widen it, so they cut down the trees. That increased tensions because those were the fruit trees that the people were depending on to make their living. Just little things like that are not little in the stability of the country. And I have to tell you, those folks who have traveled and your listeners out there who are veterans will tell you Afghanistan is as rugged and as isolated as any place on the planet. And to try and compare strategies and economics, even from Iraq to Afghanistan, that's not traveling miles. That's traveling years into the past, so difficult.

GARY EICHTEN: Simon's On the line from Morris. Simon, go ahead please.

SIMON: Hi. Yeah, I have a comment, and I guess it's in the form of a question. I am from Morris. I'm not a serviceman myself. My brother is in the Air National Guard in Austin, Texas. And I just have a concern. It's my understanding that a lot of our troops have been asked to perform different duties than the ones that they've been trained for here in the US.

As an example, a friend of mine in the Marine Corps, she was trained as a cook, and now she's been asked to perform security duties to the withdrawal of the troops in Iraq. So I just wanted to know what the Congressman thought on this issue.

TIM WALZ: Yeah. Well, Simon brings up a great point, and it's what our troops will say. There's been a significant, I would say, cultural change or mindset. In the military, you have military occupational skills or MOS. As mine, for example, I was an artilleryman shooting howitzers. But there's a core set of soldier skills, if you will, warrior skills, your ability to patrol, your ability to use radio equipment and all of those things.

The military coming out of the Cold War became very compartmentalized and specialized. If you were trained as an artilleryman, that's what you did. If you were trained as a radioman, that's what you did. We find this new conflict. It's nonlinear. The front, if you will, is all around us. No one is a rear echelon person. So this idea that women aren't in combat is antiquated. They certainly are.

And what we end up finding happening is like this Red Bull. These are artillerymen. They are artillerymen. But what they're going to go over and do is they're going to provide security and convoy escort and base security and those types of things. So what we're doing is that there's a fundamental change across the military, where everybody is acquiring these skills. They went back, and they didn't have it for a long time, hand-to-hand combat skills, combatives, if you will, on how to do those things with the recognition that everyone might find themselves into that.

So Simon brought up a good point. I think that the training doctrine is certainly changing. It's one of the reasons why-- and I'm disappointed that it has to happen this way. But we have these really long train ups before people actually deploy. And that happened to our Red Bulls down in Mississippi. They were down there six months training. And the difference is not all states are created the same. Those guys were ready to go in six weeks, and they ended up being stuck down there for another four and a half months.

So it's a great point, Simon. It is certainly being addressed. It's certainly one where we want people to have all their skills, but it's a new world. We have an army that was prepared for a Cold war, basically, against a frontal assault of tanks by the Russians. And that's not what we're fighting now.

GARY EICHTEN: Jeff, your question here before we wrap up.

JEFF: : Yeah, I guess what I'd like to ask, Congressman, is why should I, as an American citizen, or the American people for that matter, trust anything that this government stands for, foreign policy wise, in light of the debacle in Vietnam, which we learned nothing from? Robert McNamara said it himself. And now we're spending trillions of dollars on something that's bankrupting us.

GARY EICHTEN: Congressman?

JEFF: Why is it we should trust-- I have a few questions.

TIM WALZ: You shouldn't Jeff. That's what I would say. And I think that's what the problem is. And I say that I've always said that it's the citizens responsibility. And as a citizens' government, my responsibility, to question everything in general, but especially when it involves the use of force. That's the questions we should be asking. And I have to tell that, Jeff, I'm frustrated right now. I'm frustrated. And as I said, I have to be very honest, the answers I'm getting from the past administration and this administration, not very different.

I think the way this changes is, what Gary had mentioned earlier, that a lot of people aren't talking about this. If people like Jeff and others, you should be asking me to ask these questions. This isn't a follow along that I would get so frustrated when they would say, just listen to the commanders in the field and don't question it. That is absolutely-- you have a responsibility as a citizen to ask these questions.

You have a responsibility to get answers. And you need to continue to push them. So my frustration comes with, I got to be honest, Jeff, I don't hear it from a lot of people. I'm doing it. I'm looking at it. I'm trying to ask the questions. But the American public has got to push that. Once you get enough people asking the questions, now we have people. And I was talking about it when I was a teacher 20 years ago, long-term fiscal policy in debt. Well, I'm glad to see everybody's talking about it now. It takes a crisis to do that.

So no, Jeff, I'm going to support you. I'm not going to tell you, you should trust. I'm going to actually say you should not. And you should ask the questions, and you should demand of your representatives. Because that's your closest touch to these national policy issues is going to be your congressional representative. It's hard to get a senator in with you. It's certainly almost impossible to get a president. And you're never going to see the Joint Chiefs of Staff and those types of people. So it has to come through the pressure of the Congressional branch.

And this is why I took a vote that was unpopular with many of my colleagues in supporting Speaker Boehner last week that I don't feel comfortable with the information I've been giving on Libya. And I feel that's my responsibility to ask that question. I'm sure the White House isn't happy, but that's too bad, because my job is to be the question that Jeff is asking. So it's a good point. And I think be frustrated, but take that frustration constructively to go out and challenge your elected officials.

GARY EICHTEN: For people who tuned in late, quick review, your position on possibly extending the mission in Iraq.

TIM WALZ: I have grave concerns about that. I don't think you have the Iraqi have the willpower to ask for it. The mission, as it will extend the military mission, I think the sooner we transition over, if you will, to the diplomatic mission that is in process right now, this is not an event. It's more of a process that's happening. I think we should stick on schedule and move forward. But we need to do it always with the idea that never putting those troops in harm to speed something up just for a political will or whatever.

So I want to see us continue on. I want to see us get this done. I have to be very honest. I'm certainly glad that I know it's the Red Bulls that are the best that could be doing this job. And at the heart of this, that makes me rest easier. But I also understand my responsibility is to be on point with them, if you will, to make sure we get it right.

GARY EICHTEN: Need to leave it there. Thanks so much for joining us, Congressman.

TIM WALZ: Thanks, Gary.

GARY EICHTEN: Minnesota First District Congressman Tim Walz joining us. He is the highest ranking enlisted soldier to ever serve in the US Congress. Of course, we'll keep you posted as the Red Bull mission unfolds.

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