(00:00:00) With news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Greta Cunningham commuters in the Twin Cities are being told to keep an eye out for pavement blowouts as the metro area bakes in nearly 100 degree heat officials have issued a heat advisory today for the metro area temperatures are expected to soar into the high 90s Governor Ventura will tour flood damage in Roseau today President Bush has declared 13 counties in Northwestern Minnesota a federal Disaster Area because of recent storms and flooding child protection cases and counties throughout the state open to the public starting today for years ago a dozen Minnesota counties took part in a pilot project that open child protection hearings and Records to the public Kandiyohi County Judge Catherine Smith says, the hearings are presumed to be open but there may be extraordinary cases in which a judge closes the courtroom to Spectators. (00:00:47) One of the areas that comes to my mind is where a child has been abused to fledged have been sexually abused and that might be something that we might still close but that's gonna be the rare exception rather than the common (00:00:57) occurrence until now most counties in the state. Close their juvenile protection cases to protect children's privacy, but some judges and child welfare authorities say closing the hearings only Shield a child protection workers from accountability. Today is a cut-off day for 1,000 families receiving welfare benefits and the state estimates that around 500 of those families will not get more time State officials say families who do not get extended benefits will still receive Food Stamps and medical assistance. There is a severe thunderstorm warning in effect for Northern kitson County until 11:15 today. The storm is capable of producing quarter-sized hail and Winds of up to 70 miles per hour. There is a heat advisory. Once again for parts of East Central Minnesota today. It will be partly cloudy Breezy and humid with a chance of thunderstorms in the north highs today from 88 in the north to 98 in the South right now in the Twin Cities fair in 85. That's a news update. I'm Greta Cunningham. Thanks Greta 6 minutes now past 11. And good morning. Welcome to midday in Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us judicial elections have traditionally been pretty ho-hum Affairs in Minnesota. Most of the time incumbents haven't even had a challenger and the candidates have been prohibited from saying much of anything about where they stand on the issues. But all of that could change last week the US Supreme Court on a sharply divided five to four vote cleared the way for much livelier judicial elections. The court said that Minnesota judicial rules which bar candidates from expressing their views and what are called disputed legal or political issues. Those rules said the court were unconstitutional in essence. The Supreme Court said that if Minnesota and other states are going to elect their judges, they have to allow the candidates to speak out supporters say this decision is a great victory for freedom of speech and a great victory for Minnesota voters about Say the decision could undermine the independence of the judicial branch today on. Midday. We're going to take a closer look at the Court's decision and how it might play out here in Minnesota will be talking with the man who took the issue to the Supreme Court will be talking with a Minnesota Justice who may be directly affected by this ruling this year, and we'll also find out how these livelier judicial contests work in other states are legal Affairs reporter Elizabeth sticky who's been covering this issue for several years is with us today and joining us by phone from Rochester is retired Supreme Court chief justice, Sandy Keith, as always we invite you to join our conversation as well. If you've got a question or a comment about the Supreme Court's ruling on judicial elections. Give us a call. Our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for to to 8286512276 thousand one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight just as Keith Elizabeth. Thanks for joining us today Prix. It you're welcome. Very (00:03:54) glad to be here. (00:03:55) Say Elizabeth. Let me start with you is given the Court ruling now. Is there anything that a candidate for a Judicial office can't say during an election campaign or is it Katie Bar the Door? Well, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Supposedly you can't outright pledge or promise on how you roll out a future case. So you can't say I promise that I'll rule against any cases that don't support legalized abortion, but it's kind of a fine line though from saying what you could say is I think the court made a good ruling in Roe versus Wade now it's a it's a fine line, but I think the public would still get the gist of what your what your point of view is in terms of campaigning for the offices. Does this decision affect how candidates campaign can campaign other than what they can say in other words can judge a Judicial candidates now. Run a fairly traditional election campaign solicit contributions get endorsements from political parties and from various groups and so on. Well, the endorsement issue is still somewhat up for grabs in the sense that that was one issue that came before the US Supreme Court and they decided not to take it up. And so that could be up for a challenge right now. The the other idea though about the money is kind of an interesting point because before any of this started Minnesota has had a rule that judicial candidates can't raise their own money. They essentially have to have a committee that set up that raises the money for them and it's kind of on their honor that they don't know who's giving them the money for this now supposedly that's still in place. But even even before any of the rulings it some folks had kind of called it a charade because it's it's like it's like this if If if I'm running for a Judicial seat and Gary eichten is running my committee to raise money and somebody says, you know, I'd like to Elizabeth. I like to give you money to your campaign I'd say well, that's great. But I'd hand the phone over to you Gary and you could take the money. So it's you know, there is a whole lot of enforcement there. That's that's got a lot of teeth in it. Just as Keith now you were quoting the papers the other day of saying you think that this decision stinks I believe was the direct quote as a practical matter though. Do you do you expect judicial elections in Minnesota change very much or will most candidates continue to operate as they've operated in the past. (00:06:36) Let me just say if I use the word stinks. I apologize. My wife would be upset. You know, I disagreed with the opinion. Actually. It's a very well-written opinion on both sides five judges feeling. This announce Clause violated the First Amendment of the United States Constitution and for judges thought that the Minnesota system was sensible and was working. Well. So from that point of view, I shouldn't say a judge Scalia wrote the majority opinion finding a violation of the first amendment is a very disease the rights well, and so I really should be careful using those terms. Well, let's say you disagreed with the decision, but I certainly disagree with it because you know, I'm one of the few people I think who have ever served in all three branches of state government and I served for a period of time in the Minnesota state senate as a senator from Olmsted County which is of the Rochester area. You know, I was elected in 1962 as a lieutenant governor of the state. And of course I ran for governor in 1966 and was overwhelmingly defeated in the democratic-farmer-labor primary. So and then subsequently in 1989 a close friend of mine, as you know, Governor perpich appointed me to the Supreme Court as an associate judge in the next year I 1990 I was appointed by the same Governor as the Chief Justice now Iran in 1958, 1962 and 1966 as an endorsed Democratic farmer labor candidate. Then I became a judge I was unopposed in 1990, but I was opposed by two people in 1992 and all I can say is there is a enormous difference. Between running for a political office as a Party candidate as a person committed to certain constituencies. I remember I was supported by the labor movement in several campaigns as reported by teachers. It was supported by a number of professional groups and and I had commitments to those people and all of a sudden 1989. I became a judge and I had never never really just it was amazing. I had to quit contributing to all of the political events that I'd gone to political candidates running for office had to be very careful what I said about because I know I've been a lawyer all my life. I know that all of these issues sooner or later end up in our courts and it was an entirely different experience and I suddenly realized that we do need impartial judges and we do need people who are not committed to the legal issue. I mean of the great political issues of the day that art, you know that haven't, you know made public commitments. I just don't think you can have an independent Judiciary that the people of the state have confidence in (00:10:16) what do you expect more challenges now to incumbent judges as a result of this (00:10:21) ruling. Well, I hope not, you know, I don't know how it's going to impact Minnesota, obviously, mr. Wessel. I hope he's on today. I like him know him. I had him over my class debating this issue. Yeah, I teach a class of Hamelin he debated favor of it and of the Court's decision and I had another person that pulls it but you know, it depends the Republican party has begun the process in the last two conventions. I was at One here in Rochester and which they did endorse judges for office. And I think this is a great mistake. I've been to every I've been to many many political conventions up to the time. I became a judge and we never endorsed a judge who is up for re-election most judges are not opposed if they basically do not perform well, (00:11:13) but you think this might change (00:11:14) now it might change it certainly changed state of Texas where they have partisan elections used to be all Democratic by the way in Texas. And then the Republican Party gradually is taken over control of most of the state government in Texas and over the last 15 or 20 years. Now, it's all Republican. Well next and it's nasty. They spend millions of dollars on elections. They either Republican or Democrat and obviously if you're a Democrat, you're in favor personal injury lawyers, and if you're a republican you were you're probably supported by overwhelming all the defense lawyers. And you know, I don't think that's healthy. Okay. (00:11:54) Well, let's let's bring in Golden Valley attorney Greg wersal who actually took this case to the US Supreme Court ran for the state supreme court here in Minnesota three times in 1996 98 and again 2008 Greg wersal. First of all, (00:12:09) congratulations. Thank you very (00:12:11) much A lot of people kind of scoffed when you said that you were going to challenge this Rule and take it as all the way to the US Supreme Court. I guess you get the last laugh. (00:12:27) Well, I've said to people that a lot of people told me at the beginning that I was beating my head against the wall and I agree. I was beating my head against the wall, but I think they didn't realize just how hard my head is. Well, what (00:12:42) did you want to say during your campaigns for the state supreme court that you were forbidden from saying (00:12:49) anything and everything such. Hey Matt, and I couldn't say it. Well, for example, for instance any any discussion of a legal issue any criticism of a judge's decision any any anything you want to talk about in the law that was forbidden and I think that's just ridiculous. It's a crazy way to run an election system and the US Supreme Court agreed with (00:13:14) me. There are people who have said that. The only thing you really were doing was serving as a stalking horse for for pro-life the pro-life movement in That the real goal. The real aim here is to make sure that all of the judges who get elected from here on out are opposed to legal abortion. Is that (00:13:34) knowing smeared in six year? I don't know how anybody can say that. I don't know how anybody can possibly say that in six years. I have never said to anyone what My Views are on any legal issue. No one knows what my view is on abortion. It wasn't anything. I wanted to discuss what I ran and I think that as a practical matter, it's again A lot of people are trying to make something out of something that it's just isn't there. This is all about Free Speech. It's all about good government and have good government. You got to have elections that make sense and public officials that are accountable to the (00:14:13) public if judges are supposed to excuse me set aside their personal beliefs when they actually get elected and sit on the courts. How is it that their personal beliefs are relevant at all? (00:14:26) Reporters may decide they're not you've made my point exactly if it's not relevant than why can't I talk about it? Why can't I why can't I get some information out to the voters that you're saying later on. I'm not supposed to take into consideration. It's the point is is that the voters should be able to decide what is important to them. We shouldn't have a small Elite group of people deciding who are going to be the judges and what are they going to be their qualifications? And we shouldn't have a small Elite group of people shutting down an entire election system, which is what the Minnesota Supreme Court did here headed by I think your guests former Justice Sandy Keith (00:15:12) as I understand it at this point about the only thing judicial candidates can't say is how they would rule on a Case specific issue of it came before them as a judge. Do you think that should be changed as well? I mean, (00:15:25) don't we We were attacked that we thought that was fine. But I think candidates should be able to discuss their views on issues. And I think that again the US Supreme Court agreed with that. Otherwise, we've just made a sham out of the selection process, (00:15:41) but why not allow judicial candidates to say look if I'm elected and you know a case affecting the Minnesota Twins ends up before my court. I'm going to make sure that the (00:15:53) twins in Minnesota. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know The issue wasn't pick it up if you want to fight about it. Hey, it only took me four or five years to get there. Maybe you should fight about it and get it up to the US Supreme Court so you don't have an opinion (00:16:11) on that. (00:16:13) I will see what happens. I think I think the Court ruling was General enough that it might actually apply to pretty pledges and Promises. We're just going to have to see how it's flushed (00:16:23) out. Like Minnesota should stick with electing its judges are moved to a system based more on appointment and then perhaps recall election something like (00:16:33) that. Oh, no, I think we need for elections. And if anything, I think we need to do away with this nonsense where a judge resigned right before the election and then the governor gets to appoint. Somebody all it's happening again is that the judges are stealing these elections away from the public and there's a case right now from Southern Minnesota where a judge has resigned for this election cycle, but their resignation doesn't take effect until the day before the election. And now the governor is going to appoint somebody. Well, I mean, it's just (00:17:08) Insanity. Are you going to run again this year? (00:17:11) We'll see when No decisions been made (00:17:14) no decision. If you do run you would file for the state supreme court seat I assume. (00:17:19) No decisions been made. (00:17:21) Thank you. Mr. Wersal. Appreciate (00:17:23) it. You bet. Have a good day. You too, (00:17:25) Golden Valley attorney Greg wersal the man who actually brought the case to the on judicial elections to the US Supreme Court in theory. There could be lots of Elections here in Minnesota hundred and sixteen District Court seats are up for election. 7 appeals court seats are up in one state supreme court to justice is up for election Justice Paul Anderson and Justice Anderson joins us now morning, sir. Appreciate your joining us. (00:17:52) Good morning pleasure to join you this morning (00:17:54) the filings officially open tomorrow. Do you expect you'll have a challenger (00:17:59) don't know don't know and I'll just have to wait and see and there's certain things. I control certain things. I don't and we'll just wait and see (00:18:08) you agree with the Supreme Court decision. (00:18:10) No actually is that I believe that the system that we had in Minnesota had a strong historical precedent. And Gary got to understand is that I get around the country a lot and talk to judges from a lot of other states and almost universally they say, oh you're different in Minnesota. You don't have the same problems with the Judiciary that we have in our state and Minnesota has traditionally had a Judiciary that's been independent. It's been Fair open-minded and there must have been something about our system. They've guaranteed it. I mean, I just just recently the Chamber of Commerce came out with a report that indicated that as far as confidence egos, Minnesota judges are ranked by corporate console in the top 10% top 20% is impartial. So there must be something that we've been doing (00:19:03) right. Do you plan to run your campaign any differently than you would have in other words? Can we expect to hear what Justice Anderson thinks on some of the big hot issues of the day? (00:19:16) Well Gary, I think that Actually, I'll pre proceed rather cautiously along this regard. I do believe in accountability with respect to those in the Judiciary and responsibilities. And I pledge that when I was sworn in as chief judge of the court of appeals and again went on the Supreme Court and I get around Minnesota a lot and I was born and raised here talked to a lot of people and my perception from the citizens of the state is that they want a judge who's going to be fair and open-minded and they're going to be very cautious about somebody who pledges and violation. That's a that's a code word. But is it that basically States positions on legal and political issues fearful? I think that maybe that would appear to the voters to be a commitment that could constitute tantamount to a pledge or promise. How are you going to decide cases? So I'm going to proceed cautiously ultimately the arbitrator's on this whole issue will be the people of the state of Minnesota and I have a tremendous amount of confidence and faith in how they will let this sort out it and I've just when you got me on the phone today is that I was just in a meeting with a group of eight Albanian judges and they were talking about this and in Albania, they're struggling for an independent Judiciary and it just really crystallized in my mind as democracy really is a journey and what happened with the Supreme Court decision is just another step on this journey and we're going to have to sort out to see exactly how we proceed. Well, thank you, sir. Appreciate your joining us. Okay (00:21:07) Supreme Court associate Justice Paul Anderson, who will be on the election ballot this fall and thus is one of the first people who is directly affected by the US Supreme Court decision that came down. On last week Justice Keith. Do you think given this ruling from the Supreme US Supreme Court that the state constitution in Minnesota should be changed to essentially eliminate judicial elections. (00:21:32) I think you're going to see certainly some legislators advocating this Justice O'Connor who agreed with the majority but suggested that maybe we should consider going to a non election of 2000 on election of Judges as we've done on the federal court. And so I think there might be some we've already had bills in the legislature during the last decade in which the they would not have election. They would have the, you know, either reject or accept elections or hand in there are states that do appoint judges and then they have to be reappointed after a given period of time in case they're they don't turn out to be as adequate. I hope so. I think there will be some serious consideration of whether or not we ought to change the system depending on how this how this plays out. I think the two political parties have an enormous role to play if they or not to play. Hope they don't play it but if the two political parties take up judicial endorsements, you know, let's just think about it Hennepin County or let's take Ramsey County is a heavily dfl County. What if it wasn't for all the politics Allah judges are in is either dear Fellers are Republicans. Maybe we'd have all Democratic judges in Ramsey County or the Iron Range and in some other some other areas, they might not so I think a lot depends on how the political parties react to this decision. I'm hopeful they'll stay out of judicial election. We have a statute that goes back almost a hundred years that were to be no. Partisan and I hope they we stick to that and obviously we'll just have to see how how the two major parties react to this decision. And I think that is important. (00:23:36) We have got a we have a caller on the line from Alexandria with a comment Gary. Go ahead, please (00:23:41) good morning. Good show. I I agreed with the Minnesota law it kept the court system professional and non-political but I haven't read the opinion but my question is concerning there seems to be a de cada me between what the Supreme Court Justices said during their hearings and what they say now because I've observed during their hearings. Most of them said that they couldn't comment. It couldn't Express their views on issues because they would come up before the court later. And now they've ruled it in elections in Minnesota and across the nation's that people can and probably will be forced to I'm in on the issues in election. So do you see in a dichotomy between that and are we going to see in the future Judiciary hearings on Justices are appointed justices. Are we going to see great pressure for them to express their views on issues? Was what we're worried about obviously. Take a person like myself where I had, you know, I did have stated views on almost every issue because I'd been in the legislature and I'd run for governor and I've been asked every question you can think of but most judicial candidates have not been involved in this and it's not easy for them how to deal with it because I can tell you you can your the minute you become a judge people. Hope that you're going to be totally fair and reasonable you're going to listen to the facts. You're not going to let your personal opinions and I found myself. I for instance. I upheld a number of laws that I thought were not very soundly thought out by the legislature, but they were the legislative they are the authority and they didn't violate any constitutional provisions and they should have been upheld and My responsibility judges are not lawmakers. We're not opinion leaders often judges make decisions where the public doesn't like the lets a person escape a criminal penalty that they think he ought to have because of way we have may have arrested the person and it's very unpopular and should that then be the what to do to defeat this person. I don't think so and I just don't want these elections to become partisan in in the traditional sense that we have them for the state legislature in for the for the major offices is you know, in the rural areas. We've always kept our local elections nonpartisan that isn't true in the Twin Cities and some won't some areas, but I've always thought that was sensible and I don't want that. Change either because I don't think it matters in most issues at the local level. Whether you're a democrat or republican or whether you go to the Catholic Church of the Luther so (00:26:51) former Chief Justice Sandy Keith has joined us and also with us are legal Affairs reporter Elizabeth's to Wiki we're here today talking about the Supreme Court's decision that came down last week, which essentially says that judicial candidates in the state of Minnesota and actually 39 other states May in fact discuss the issues of the day when they campaign for election to those judicial seats conceivably could have a major impact on judicial elections in Minnesota how they're conducted and what we will hear from the candidates. If you would like to join our conversation, give us a call at six five one two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight gets more of your questions and continue our conversation here in a couple of minutes, Minnesota Public Radio members receive 241 ticket offers with their memberships to learn more about this month's offers or to join click on. Public Radio dot-org is the new consumer demand for flag inspired fashion a result of patriotic fervor. (00:27:51) I live in a country I pay taxes. So I figure you know, I do my patriotic Duty that way if it happens to be what I'm wearing. I'm see what I'm wearing. (00:27:58) I'm David brancaccio the booming market for the red white and blue plus any new accounting scandals that erupted a later on Marketplace from Bri. Marketplace's on the air at 6:30 week nights here on Minnesota Public Radio news headlines. Now, here's got a Cunningham Greta. Thanks Gary. Good morning. Worldcom has informed the government that it is investigating possible irregularities in its Reserve accounts. The SEC had demanded a report after filing civil fraud charges last week after Worldcom revealed. It had hidden nearly four billion dollars in expenses. The company has laid off thousands already and has seen its stock become worth only pennies Worldcom got noticed from the NASDAQ stock market that it shares will be removed from the Trading Post starting Friday. The delisting could put on hold could be put on hold if Worldcom request a hearing to object to the move Worldcom is a second largest long distance company behind AT&T a federal judge in New York says, the federal death penalty is unconstitutional federal judge. Jed rakoff says the federal death penalty law violates the due process rights of defendants rakoff wrote that the evidence shows that innocent people are Tends to death much more often than previously thought prosecutors are likely to appeal the ruling which does not have any bearing on state death penalty laws. The government argued that in the 14 years of federal death penalty has been in place. None of the 31 people sentenced to die has later been found innocent in Regional news a national Teamsters Union has taken control of its local representing Northwest Airlines flight attendants the national union today appointed Molly Riley as Trustee of Teamsters Local 2000 and removed the elected officers of the local Riley is a Northwest flight attendant based in Minneapolis and was secretary treasurer of the local from 1992 to 1997. Some Northwest flight attendants have been campaigning to break away from the teamsters and form an independent Union the forecast for Minnesota today has a heat advisory for parts of East Central Minnesota today. It'll be partly cloudy today Breezy hot and humid with a chance of thunderstorms in the north highs today ranging from 88 in the north to 98 in the South right now. Marshall it's fair and 88 Worthington reports clear skies in 84 skies are clear and Rochester and 83. It's clear in Duluth and 83 and in the Twin Cities Fair Skies with a temperature of 87 degrees. That's a check on the latest news. All right. Thank you Greta. It's about 25 minutes before 12:00. Midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio. We're talking this our about the US Supreme Court's decision last week, which essentially says candidates who run for judicial offices in Minnesota can pretty much say what they want during their campaigns. This is would be a dramatic change from what we've become used to wear candidates traditionally say well can't comment on that. Big change is likely in how judicial campaigns are going to be conducted in the state of Minnesota and Elizabeth's to Wiki our legal Affairs reporter is here. She's been covering this issue for several years now also joining us by phone is former, Minnesota Supreme Court chief. Justice Sandy keep Elizabeth let me ask you this. Now. We focused on what candidates can say given the Supreme Court ruling. Let's assume that a judge gets elected he or she is now sitting on the bench given the change in what candidates are allowed to say is the judge also allowed now to to say whatever they feel like saying about the case before them short of short of actually saying this is how I'm going to rule I mean before they've actually before like, let's say the state supreme court has made a ruling right or you know, you hear the oral arguments and the reporters run up and say well, what do you think judge who gave the good better arguments here? Well, I would think under this ruling they probably could now whether they would or not I I that's going to be the big question because before to a lot of times if you ask if you were a reporter and you asked if you know a judge or a Justice after even after ruling came out After they put their their their pen to the paper, so to speak they would always say well just read my opinion because those opinions are you know, well, well thought out they can be 30 40 pages long sometimes and and it's not all that easy to boil them down into a couple of sound bites. So I guess it's this is all new territory. We don't really know at this point, but I'd find it surprising that a judge or a Justice would right now start doing that bill morons on the line. He was one of Greg were cil's attorneys. Mr. Wersal again, for those of you who tuned in late was the gentleman who brought this case to the US Supreme Court. Mr. Mormon your comment Whoops, let me get you on the air. There we go. I'm sorry. Go ahead now. (00:32:55) Hi Gary. How are you? Just fine. I'd like just as Keith to comment on just the what I find to be the underlying tension in this case. When I find to be very troubling in the state's position in this case our research established Beyond any doubt that the reason we elect judges and Minnesota is so that those judges have to stand before the people every six years and justify their decisions. That's crystal clear from the Constitutional conventions when the when the state was founded and the state supreme court justices in there in these rules that we got struck down by the Supreme Court were basically telling the voters that we're not going to allow you to know what those opinions are not going to allow the anyone who's running against us to know what the to what don't know what the opinions of the opponents are, which basically establishes as Justice O'Connor commented on at oral argument in this case that it's basically an Numbered protection act and I and I just find it very very troubling that on the one hand the basically the establishment bench and Bar in Minnesota is very troubled by this ruling and the like but there's been no commentary about the fact that these rules that were passed violated the First Amendment rights Free Speech rights of their opponents, which makes it even look more like an incumbent protection (00:34:18) act. Okay. Justin said Keith, what were these essentially these rules essentially drawn up simply to make sure or primarily to make sure that folks sitting on the bench weren't challenged by anybody. (00:34:33) I think there's some truth in what? Mr. Morris said that we don't want judges challenged unless they are not treating people fairly. They are not being objectively weighing the facts and applying law and That it shouldn't be based on their opinions. We don't reprimand a judge today at based on it. What is opinion on most of our criticisms of Judges often come in family law and area I'm very familiar with and often. It's the opinion of the judge and not you know, not how we handle and obviously he's trying to follow the law. So yes there is this tension in Burns right at this is this is a tension and frankly. I just you're not political actors and which I was for many years. (00:35:30) Well not let me let me ask you this then just Keith. I mean everybody knew you were a Democrat sure you as you pointed out you had made your position known on many many different issues prior to becoming a (00:35:43) judge I was (00:35:44) challenged so why couldn't you as a candidate for judicial office? What difference is MM everybody knows? Where you stand current chief justice was a republican legislator. So I mean in a general sense, we could go back and find out what Kathleen Blatz thinks about various issues. So what would be wrong what is wrong in your mind with candidates who perhaps aren't as well known equal also making their views known to the voter. No, excuse me, you know what I'm saying? Yes. There's a question make any sense here. (00:36:18) It certainly does you could have an election for instance. I was challenged on an abortion opinion. I wrote by one of my opponents. And so that was fine. You know, I was challenged by all kinds of literature on the for that opinion that was passed out during the election. So they do challenge you and whether you like it or not the problem with this is that most issues that I dealt with on that Court often I had Thought about the issues thoroughly or carefully and this is what you must do on the Appellate level. You've got to think through them much more carefully than you've ever thought of them before even though I practiced law 30 years before I went on the bench and I did a lot of criminal law and I and family law and many other areas of the law, but I'd never really you've really don't understand what it's like until you get there and have to think through these complex issues that are brought before you and I just think that if we politicize this thing down to Simple black or white issues portion or whatever you want to call it what other any any issues we're making a mistake we need the type of person that needs to be a judge. It's a it does require really a very interesting combination of Common Sense hard work dedication to the law understanding the whole concept of star. Sighs he's which I never really understood to let became a judge to realizing the Constitutional protections and how important they are even to people who are really public dislikes because they aren't good people. So it's a very interesting process and I just don't think we want to get into a partisan types of election that they've had in other states in this country because of the fact that they're (00:38:17) elected as you note. Some other states do have Lively judicial campaign stevelou, but joins us now, he teaches law at Northwestern University and he specializes in judicial judicial ethics and conduct Professor. Thanks for joining us good to be with you in those other states where there are full-blown judicial campaigns. How are the candidates responded no-holds-barred type campaigning are the candidates generally fairly restrained and what they have to say about themselves and about their Challenger how that worked (00:38:49) out. States as you know, that that elect some were all of their judges. So the nature of the campaign's is pretty broad from from state to state you have States like Texas and Alabama where there are partisan campaigns partisan primaries judges have to run for re-election as either Democrats or Republicans and those pretty much get fought out as any other political campaign with less and less restraint and in in other states, there's some continuing decorum, but the trend I'd say is downhill and even in States like Illinois where we justices don't have to run against opponents for re-election. I only have to run in a Party primary. We're seeing more and more outright political style (00:39:44) campaigning. Is there any evidence though to indicate that people who appear before these judges? Defendants plaintiffs in like have less confidence in the judges ability to set aside his or her personal prejudices get a fair hearing (00:40:02) you're talking about evidence of declining public confidence in the Judiciary. Yes. I think you've seen a general decline of public confidence in the Judiciary. I'm not a sociologist so I can't cite you to science or to social science on that. But certainly there's been a general public decline in respect for judges. I think all of the polls but if straight that does it seem to (00:40:26) differ though substantially and from states where they have of you know, full-blown elections to those like Minnesota where we've not really had much of an election to (00:40:35) speak of another day right? There is a differential States like New Jersey and Massachusetts where judges are appointed and actually State Court judges are on the federal model they serve with life tenure. I think you see more respect for the courts. Across the country states that they have more respect for federal courts generally than for state courts. So I think with politicization comes a cost and the cost is that people start looking on judges the same way they do City Council Members (00:41:09) is there now to the extent there have been full-blown campaigns in the like real knockdown drag-outs which people have suggested might occur here in Minnesota. Is that occur at the Appellate level just at the Appellate level just at the trial court level or (00:41:24) both depending on the state that the larger the state the more it's confined to the Appellate level because there are so many trial court judges being being elected. So in large states like Texas we were there's must be a thousand trial court judges may be more the money tends to get concentrated at the top and the Supreme Court races in smaller States. Trial judges are more important. And so those elections and to be hard fought as (00:41:56) well Justice O'Connor seem to suggest that if Minnesota was unhappy with the prospect of full-blown judicial elections, the state could always do away with the judicial elections has that occurred in any other state where they used to have judicial elections and they said well, we don't want that. So we'll move to more of an appointment (00:42:15) process know the trend of went the other way from appointed judges to elected judges and most of that happened in the 19th century. I think Most states are pretty pretty set in their ways about whether they're going to elect or appoint judges. (00:42:31) Thank you very much for your information. Appreciate it good to be with you Steve Logan who teaches law at Northwestern University joining us this hour as we take a look at the ruling from the US Supreme Court last week, which essentially allowed candidates for judicial office in the state of Minnesota to say I want to say during campaigns for elections Justice Keith. I'm wondering do you think it would make any difference? Is there a difference between these full-blown campaigns for the seat at the Appellate level versus the trial court level or in your mind. Are they all bad ideas? (00:43:10) Well, I think you know, I do think it may well be concentrated at the at the Supreme Court level. We've we often have had we've never had an incumbent Supreme Court Justice in my lifetime defeated there have been in the past and that's what led to reforms in our system. But basically I think this would be the place to do it. Especially if the political parties enter The Fray obviously you could have areas of the state that have one party systems. I'm thinking specifically Minneapolis st. Paul. All in certain parts of the northeastern Minnesota where maybe they could, you know, go into partisan election for local judges. I don't know this would be a huge mistake. But again, you can't I've have I have Democrats at think if we win the elections we had to get the judges, you know, and I'm sure there are Republicans at felt this way or feel this way. I don't I think you try to get a person I think I don't think it makes two Hoots what how they vote. I think we ought not to be they consider that aspect of it. I don't think it matters where you go to church I when I go in front of a judge, I want him to listen to me and my client. I'm only there because of the cases difficult. I know go to court when it's easy, you know, and we settle them I go there because we've got a difficult problem. We can't get it settled. I need a judge to listen to the facts. Listen apply the law give us a decision reasonably. Reasonably short time so my client go on with his life or her life. So I don't want to worry about how they vote. They don't want to partisan type person in that kind of a job. If you're going to do everything according to Republican platform or the Democratic platform of wouldn't want him on it down on the bench (00:45:09) Elizabeth. What is your sense here? In terms of what the what the party's political parties might do or they going to get involved in this I think they will the Republicans have said that they would get involved pretty intensely the the Democratic the dfl said that they'd rather not but the impression I get that is if the Republicans are going to do it then they're going to have to get involved with us. The independence party is interesting because they say that they will support candidates who adhere to the old rule that is who don't give out their opinions on the big legal issues that they're trying to kind of Like a movement of their own to keep what they call as, you know the Integrity in the impartiality on the court and what have you heard if anything about independent groups, not the political parties per se but you know, the pro-choice groups in the pro-life groups in the pro-gun rights people and the gun control people you groups like that. Well, I do know that a lot of the groups involved on the abortion issue on both sides have been interested in us and and it has been the case where in other parts of the country that they are interested in it as well as far as you know, as far as the Minnesota concerned citizens concerned for life. They haven't told me anyway what their what their plans are. I've asked nature all has said that they expect that they're going to have to kind of Or they're going to have to work on 50% more races now because of this issue. So it's it's something that I think that not only they will get involved in but maybe like businesses with like tort reform that kind of sexy subject that gets but it's a big one for for the courts to have to deal with Josh's Keith. Do you see any difference between the political parties as such getting involved in these races versus these independent groups issue oriented groups? (00:47:20) Well, as you know, the independent groups are certainly being heard as you know, I'm just amazed at the soul of it the reaction to Tim pennies entry into the governor's race. As you know, I know him only him well for years and It does make an impact. I've discovered and certainly in Rochester. So I do think that it's I'm pleased to hear that. They're thinking in terms that they're thinking because I think they're right and this will impact people. I think they're we're seeing more and more independent voters in the state that I could far as I could tell. (00:48:07) But I mean in terms of well, like say the both sides of the abortion debate. Let's say their groups weigh in on a Judicial races that better worse or the same as political parties getting involved. (00:48:18) Well, they've always weighed in I guess I can't really argue with that. You've always weighed in and he's so I can't they certainly probably they may impact one or two. I don't know I I've always saw gender was might have been important in several races whether you're a man or a woman, but it's hard to tell because we haven't had many partisan elections. We really haven't usually judges it or defeated defeat themselves. They haven't performed adequately in terms of their fairness their demeanor their dedication to the law. They've they've done some stupid things and get themselves defeated. Right? I think this is what we want. We don't want to feed it. Jews you know, I don't want to judge out campaigning for three months when he's supposed to be here in cases on the bench. Let me ask you (00:49:14) working two quick questions and we have to go Justice Keith's number one. Can we expect more judges to be disqualified when they go to hear our case on the basis of what they've said prior to getting (00:49:27) elected certainly disqualified if I have a client and I think because of what he said, I think he's made up his mind. I'm going to disqualify gonna try to throw him off of like yeah. Okay. I'm not going to go in front of somebody that I think is made up his mind on an issue especially if I'm on the other (00:49:44) side. All right, and do you think when all is said and done that Minnesota will change the way it gets its judges in other words move away from elections and move to a more of an appointment process. (00:49:55) I think we're going to have some discussion about this. I'm not sure it's hard to change this as people don't like to give up the right to vote on something. So I'm not sure how it'll happen. But I think there's going to be some discussion and I wouldn't be surprised to see a constitutional amendment within the next decade (00:50:10) gotta run. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Former Supreme Court chief. Justice Andy Keith Elizabeth. Thanks for coming by today Elizabeth. The sticky are legal Affairs reporter. This has been a year when your membership is mattered even more than usual and we thank you. Hello. I'm Bill cling president of Minnesota Public Radio with listenership. 2mp are at an all-time high your support of MPR has exceeded that of any other year culminating in the successful completion of our June membership Drive, we've a lot to be grateful for and to look forward to whatever the future holds Minnesota Public Radio will be there with you providing classical music and keeping you abreast of the events and issues of the day all that. Thanks to you. Yes, and let me add my thanks as well. Thanks to everybody who called (00:50:54) in (00:51:05) and here is the Writers almanac for Monday. It's the first of July 2002. It's the birthday of James M Cain born in Annapolis, Maryland 1892 author of The Postman Always Rings Twice Double Indemnity and all ebooks described himself as an ugly Irish Catholic mama's boy. His mother was an opera singer. His father was a professor. They both corrected young James has grammar all of the time and in a sort of vengeful way. His books are full of tough-talking characters who make a lot of grammatical mistakes. He was a newspaper reporter than a novelist writing books that describe appalling crimes int'rests newspaper style Pros in France. He was considered one of America's most important writers Albert Camus said that The Postman Always Rings Twice was the inspiration for his novel The Outsider. It's the birthday of William Strunk born in Cincinnati 1869 taught at Cornell. He was a Shakespearean scholar. He also taught writing and he was the co-author along with EB white of the elements of style in which he wrote vigorous writing is concise omit needless words make definite assertions. It's the birthday George Sanborn. I'm on Tina Roar Lucile dupin in Paris in 1804. She was a novelist wrote dozens of novels few of which are red now, but she's remembered for doing just what she liked in an age when women were supposed to be retiring after the death of her husband. She dressed in men's clothing so she could walk around Paris alone. She had a love affair with Chopin and many other men she wrote propaganda for the revolution of 1848. She was a feminist before there was a word for Such thing it was on this day in 1731. The first circulating library was established by Benjamin Franklin and a group of his friends in Philadelphia subscription Library each member contributing a set amount of money each year and it's the first day of Gottfried Wilhelm Von leibnitz born in Leipzig in 1646 self-taught as a mathematician. He spent long periods of time working through problems arrived at the methods of integral and differential calculus on his own Milton had covered all of this before but Liebman, it's published his findings first and did important work in geology Hydraulics philosophy and theology. Here's a poem for today by Maxine kumin entitled wagons. Their wheelchairs are Conestoga wagons drawn into the Arc of a circle at 2 p.m. Elsie Gladys Hazel Fanny Dora whose names were coinage after the first world war remember their parents tuned to the Fireside Chats remember in school being taught to hate the Japs? They sit attentive as seals awaiting their fish as the therapist sings out her cheerful directives Square the shoulders Lean Back straighten the knee and lift tighten lift and hold ladies. They will retrain the side all but lost in a stroke the spinal cord mashed but not severed in traffic. They will learn to adjust to their newly replaced hips. They will walk on feet of shapely plastic this darling child in charge of their Destiny will lead them forward across the Prairie. Wagons upon by Maxine kumin from the long marriage published by WWE Norton and used by permission here on the writers almanach produced by Minnesota Public Radio and brought to you by the people of a be ebooks or over 30 million rare used and out-of-print books are just a click away online at a be ebooks.com be well do good work and keep in touch. It's 12 noon. And this is midday coming to you in Minnesota Public Radio. Good afternoon. I'm Gary eichten. Glad you could join us. Hope you can stay tuned. We have news headlines next and then right after the news two voices of Minnesota interviews with a couple of influential minnesotans James Shannon and Pam costain. I'm Cathy Wars original host of NPR's Morning Edition when you wake up tomorrow, don't forget to tune in to this station where you'll find out what's going on everywhere from New Delhi to new home. That's Morning Edition from 4 to 9 right here on Minnesota Public Radio. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. Sunny Sky 87 degrees at Kenner wfm 91.1 Minneapolis and st. Paul those of you in the Duluth area are tuned to WS c n 100.5 in Cloak a heat advisory in effect for the city's today Breezy hot and humid heat index 105 to 110. Take care.