(00:00:09) Good morning, and Welcome to our special Main Street broadcast from Bemidji. I'm Rachel riebe debate continues in the Minnesota Legislature this week on the state's most controversial creature the wolf experts and Advocates and politicians and lobbyists cannot seem to agree how to manage Minnesota's wolf population 25 years ago. The problem was different wolves were almost extinct in this country hunted to death by humans. The only significant wolf population left in the contiguous 48 states was in northeastern Minnesota where several hundred wolves remained today. The gray wolf is back rebounding with a Vigor that has surprised even some of the experts the federal government wants to remove them from the protected list, but they won't do it until Minnesota comes up with a plan to manage the wolf population and that has been Difficult Our Guest this afternoon in Bemidji are Carlin Burger wolf consultant to the Humane Society of the United States and Dale lueck and Aiken farmer and board member for the Minnesota State Cattlemen's Association. Mike, Don Carlos wolf management coordinator for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources and state. Senator. Gary lydick are joining us from our Saint Paul Studio. Good afternoon. Welcome to all of you and our phone lines are open for your calls and comments listeners. You can join us by calling 1-800 5/3 75252 the number again 1-800-501-7737 last year the Minnesota Legislature failed to take action on a wolf management plan, but the issue is by no means dead Senator lighted you say tomorrow is D-Day in the senate for the wolf Bill. What do you expect is going to happen? Well, I expect that. Once again. The the Minnesota state senate will listen to the Department of Natural Resources and Listen to what their goals are for a wolf management plan. There will be a healthy Lively discussion of the wolf. It tends to draw a crowd in Minnesota and whatever happens tomorrow up a wolf management plan will pass the state senate and will continue in the legislative process. And is that wolf management plan going to look like the Roundtable of cord from last year or is it going to look like the Department of Natural Resources plan that was proposed just recently. Well, it's hard to say what a political body will do but I think that I think what will happen tomorrow. Is that a year ago when we when we suspended discussion of a wolf management plan a number of things have occurred in ever people are agreeing that the shared common goal of State Management is the ultimate goal and there's a different route to get there. There's the citizens Roundtable agreement. There's a revised Department bill. And there's the the house built but I think all elements of this debate would agree that the final goal is State Management. I think we're better prepared to manage the gray wolf than the federal government. How do we get there? What's the quickest way? What's the way to survive legal challenges? What's the socially acceptable and biologically sound plan. So I think tomorrow what is likely to happen is I'm going to offer the citizens Roundtable agreement. There is a fair amount of support it fell to vote short last time. It's possible that it will prevail if it does not then they'll be discussion of the revised DNR plan and I think that plan would then pass. So either way we're going to have a sound plan developed by the department that meets the goal of D listing and results in State Management. Mike, Don Carlos, help us out by differentiating just the basic points between the citizens Roundtable bill and the revised DNR plan. Of the basic difference is just so we can get it in our mind the primary differences the revised plan creates an (00:04:06) agricultural Zone in a wolf Zone in Minnesota. And those zones would be identical to the federal recovery (00:04:13) zones in the state (00:04:15) and it relaxes requirements for taking wolves in the (00:04:19) agricultural zone of the state as compared to the Roundtable (00:04:22) agreement under the revised Bill essentially the Roundtable agreement. Would Prevail in the wolf range which represents 90% of the current wolf range in Minnesota. (00:04:33) Okay. So those are the basic differences are phone line is open ready for your questions and comments one eight hundred five three 75252 we go up to Two Harbors where Dan is standing by? Good afternoon, Dan. Welcome to Main (00:04:46) Street. Good afternoon. And how are you folks today? We're fine. Thank you. That's good. I have a question on the I saw study is I think it was about two weeks ago, but it showed that Minnesota was second in population 2 wolves in Alaska. Have you seen that study? I think it came out where it's the devel the wolf seminar that was going on. The International Wolf seminar had showed that this size the area of Alaska compared to the size of Minnesota where second in the in the United States to Wolf population. (00:05:19) We certainly have the most wolves in the lower 48 states. Do we not? All right. Go ahead right (00:05:24) question. My question is is that is that a reasonable amount expected to be in this state of wolves with the amount of population of humans Agriculture and livestock and if it is or isn't what would why is there not a reason as to why we cannot hunt these wolves like we used to or take wolves out that are doing anything that you know, they got the ability to if the wolf has an animal in its small thing. That's the only time you can take the wolf that seems to be a not an actual good way to take care of the wolf population or keep it in check. Maybe I can take a stab at it real (00:06:06) quickly. I'm convinced that that the best agency to manage Wolves of Minnesota's the Department of Natural Resources. They have professional biologist and I believe that if we get to State Management, we achieve delisting I am convinced that the DNR will manage this animal like it does dear waterfowl pheasants. And if it's a good year in population is up and ranges up and habitats polyfill. They'll be a more aggressive management plan to manage that animal if population is down if threats are up it'll be a less aggressive management plan and I think I'm confident that if we get to State Management what the agency will do is what it's done over the last 200 years is to manage Wildlife based on science and biology and that's I think what will happen is if in the northern part of the state of what occurs if the population increases as you've indicated I'm convinced that apartment can adjust the management plan to meet those needs. Kahlenberge. Well, I would first of all totally disagree. I think what we have to really discuss here is that the wolf is an animal that is very different from dear and they're even the scientists including Dave me to agree the hunting and trapping is not a way to control the population that that doesn't work that's been proven by science. It would be nice to think that the DNR plan was based on science, but it is not based on that. It's based on politics and deciding how the wolf will be more socially accepted where you have habitat and you have a healthy ecosystem. You can have wolves. Now one thing I would like to really make clear is that the Coalition that I represent which is over 60 national and local organizations as well as includes the Humane Society have no disagreement about taking verified deprecating wolves where there are significant or true verified depredations. We agree that some of those wolves have to be removed but that it should be targeted that it should be selective that it should be aimed at the deprecating wolf. Not just killing all Wolves at a general population. I also would like to disagree with Mike Dunn Carlos is assessment of the difference between the round table and the new DNR Bill and anyone who really wants to understand this better get a copy of both those recommendations and the new bill. There are significant differences in that and the round table agreement which we were very unhappy with did give a lot of consideration towards agriculture. We as various animal groups and pro-life groups voted. It's you yes that farmers having verified depredations to get compensation. They should get a that she'd get animal damage control selected control where those Target animals could be removed but a wholesale killing of wolves through hunting and trapping is not a method that really will solve any of these population problems and even Dave me she said that about the only thing that would do that would be poison and that of course would be of totally unacceptable solution Carlin you were unhappy with the Roundtable bill. Would it be safe to say or that you are even unhappier with the DNR plan? Oh, absolutely. I mean, let me Do this to her is compromised possible. Do you agree as the senator started out the program saying almost everybody agrees that State Management is the goal. Is that your goal? No, first of all, we don't agree with that because we see the history of State Management has not been acceptable for the wolf. We do feel that there is composite there is a way to compromise and that would be by actually using science to manage this animal you're dealing not with like a herd of deer you're dealing with a social animal that has a very important restrictions on it in the way. It survives in the wild territory and other social things. None of those things have ever been considered in any kind of sound management of the wolf to date and that's not acceptable even in Europe. We see that they are working towards coexisting. We understand that there are problems and conflicts but we really believe that first of all there is a shared responsibility here and just killing them is not the solution and so all the conversation all the the debate that's going to go on in the legislature this week and next week next week. It's not of great interest you because you don't want to state-managed plan and you're going to go to court regardless of what comes out if it's the round table plan. If it's the DNR plan your goal is to get to court. Oh, well, it's not our goal to get to court but it's our goal to protect the wolf, which means we will have to go to court because none of those plans. I mean if they were based on sound science, they wouldn't exist the way they do. They wouldn't have a thing called Predator payments, which they would like us to believe is not a bounty. They wouldn't have retroactive revenge against wolves in farms that are five years ago that had wolf depredations. That's not a fair assessment and I think it's been a really unfair to the animal groups to say that we have not tried to compromise. We'd really do understand that agriculture needs assistance with deprecating wolves. But we also expect that agriculture has to work with us to try to see the if we can allow wolves to be in those areas as well Rachel. Lueck. You are supporting supporting the Cattlemen's Association. Let's talk about Your opinion here. Do you feel that compromise is possible could you support either the Roundtable bill or the DNR bill? First of all, I before we go any further Dan made a comment that I want to be absolutely sure we clarify he is understood to be to send it. We might be okay to kill a wolf right now that was in the act of killing a domestic livestock. That's absolutely emphatically not true and supporting it the listeners out there understand that the wolf is still under total Federal Protection. It is against the law for a private citizen to harm a wolf in any way. So I just didn't want anybody out there. You know, I'll Farmers understand that will change and nothing has changed. And so we don't want good people to you know, possibly get in trouble because they didn't understand but I'm going right to the root of the thing here. The State Cattlemen's Association can absolutely live and work with something that would come out of the current house bill. That's was passed last year and the bill that the DNR has proposed to go into the Senate this year. If you take those two bills lay them side by side. There's no doubt in our mind that that our legislative people can come up with a good workable State Management plan. That's absolutely critical. We need to get that back under Minnesota management so we can satisfy the varying needs of our citizens throughout the state to continue to delay. That just is absolutely Beyond The Pale because we have we have over R and the goal of recovering the wolf by 15 years. Now, we passed the the fourteen hundred wolves. We needed to meet our recovery goals for state of Minnesota back in the late 70s early 80s here. We are 2,500 closed on 3000 and we still have the federal government. Running this thing to the great detriment of pet owners to livestock owners and the general people in Minnesota because when we get this thing this the DNR and the state taxpayers payers are going to be beginnin a monstrous million dollar more a year cost to manage these things and every year we wait it's going to cost us more. So we need to get that management down so we can control the cost to the taxpayers and take care of protecting. Our city state management is a good idea. It's not a good idea. It's long long overdue and anything that would detract from that is, you know, just just doesn't doesn't fit. It's just strange. Why would sit here and try not to give even consider not given this whole management think back to the people Minnesota. They're good people they're responsible people and they can certainly manage the walls mean the DNR manages a small moose population of small elk population there. Experts at this and there's no concern about the DNR actually, you know causing the demise of the wolf in Minnesota that that's just I don't believe that our phone number this afternoon is one eight hundred five three 75252. We have Jenny Yingling with us on the phone this afternoon. She's the state director of the Sierra Club. Good afternoon Ginny. Hi. Thanks for having me on how do you think the wolf issue can be resolved in (00:14:43) Minnesota? Well, it seems to me that you know, the question that is the premise for this show is is compromised possible and we have a compromise the Roundtable which represented all of the perspectives on this issue from environmental groups Animal Welfare groups tribal representative all the farming organizations all the hunting organizations Department of Ag and Department of Natural Resources all came together met for five months. 33 people plus all sorts of experts Nationwide who advised us and we came up with a plan that gave everybody a little something nobody got everything that they wanted but that is the compromise and as it was put into legislation and talked about last year some things even got taken out of that. And so I think that the way to resolve this is to take a conservative approach. We have to remember that there's a difference between an animal Like the Wolf against which there is an awful lot of public animosity. Some of it is based on a little bit of fact, we do know that will attack livestock and they do and so people have animosity towards them for that but there's a lot of public or cultural mythology about the wolf and a lot of fear towards the wolf that's based mainly on myth. And when you're dealing with an animal like that, it's got you've got to take a much more cautious approach as you're talking about. How will we manage it? What role do we allow the public to play in managing this animal because you don't want to open the floodgates until you've tested the waters and that's what the round table agreement did it says that the state will manage this wolf or this animal. We're going to give farmers and pet owners who see the wolf any Act of attacking or killing their animals. We give them the right to kill that wolf. We continue the program that removes animals wolves that we know are killing livestock. That's a continuation of a program. We've always been able to kill wolves that are threatening humans. We've never had a report of a wolf actually attacking a human being in the United States. And so that's a cautious approach and then it says we're going to re-evaluate we've got will take five years and after five years the state can reconsider if they want to look at hunting and trapping season. That was a concession that we made to the hunters. We made a lot of concession to the farmers. We said let's increase compensation. Let's increase or expand the number of animals or incidences that would be covered by compensation. (00:17:19) And so Jenni what you're saying is State Management is a good idea and that there is room for compromise. (00:17:26) I think there is and I you know, I understand the concerns about State Management, but I think we're at a different point than we were 30 40 years ago. Poisoning is not legal in this state will some people abuse that probably but they're breaking the law and and we can we can write laws. We can't make people accept them. We can only try and enforce them and that's another part of taking a cautious approach. Let's take the wolf under State Management, but then let's have the state prove to us in that five-year period that they're going to enforce this rule, (00:18:00) you know, you represent the Sierra Club one of the larger environmental groups in the state of Minnesota. You would consider Off to be a wolf Advocate. (00:18:08) Yes, (00:18:10) is it difficult that your opinion differs so much from the opinion of Carlin Berg who sits at the table with this. Is there a concern that people assume you're going to agree on everything when in fact it sounds to me like you agree on very little. (00:18:23) Oh, I would I would say we're focusing on disagreements today. And so that's why it may seem that way Carlin and I do disagree on some of some of these basic issues and particularly about whether or not private citizens should be able to kill wolves and I respect her position on that and I know that it comes from a concern for the wolf and long experience with that public animosity towards the wolf. And so I understand where that's coming from but you know, my organization felt that it was important to reach a position where we acknowledge the concerns that farmers and pet owners have legitimate concerns. Give them some control over protecting their there. Animals some control over their life, but not so much that we lose control over an animal that's just coming off the endangered species list and which still needs our protection as long as that level of animosity is present within some sections of the (00:19:23) public Carla. Let's give you a chance to respond how well one of the things is that first. I'd like to clear up the fact is that the wolf doesn't belong to the people of Minnesota when the wolf could be gets delisted. Basically, the federal government is passing the torch of responsibility to our state and we have to meet that responsibility in order to preserve it for other generations to come and that's our responsibility. We don't feel that that's been met. I also would like to say that our organizations are not suddenly coming to the realization that we need to compromise on animal damage control as Ginny is kind of alluded to here because back in 1978. Our organizations went to court and negotiated that the wolf could be threatened under threatened status to allow for Practical management of deprecating animals. So this was a concession. This was a compromise we made way back in 1978 and we have abided by that and we have supported the depredation program. There are a lot of organizations that don't support that but we have really stuck our neck out to make sure that there was a legitimate way to handle truly deprecating wolves, and we've maintained that so that's no news. It's also unfair to say that the bills that are pending that any of those even represent the Roundtable recommendations, and we put together a document that showed how many things had been removed from the original recommendations. The original recommendations were based on trust and there were a lot of real subtle things there that none of us were very happy about but it was based on trust that those things would be upheld and that trust was broken within the first five weeks of the legislative session last year. So in our minds that means wait a minute if we couldn't even go into this process abiding by that compromise, we better look twice and find out who is going to be maintaining it now. We have Fred on the phone from Little Falls. Good afternoon, Fred. Welcome to Main Street. Fred go go ahead. (00:21:10) Yeah, I agree with everything at Jenny was saying but I had so I had it changed my comments a bit here and say how exaggerated wolf to predation is. I'm a Hunter I own sled dogs and I happen to live near Camp Ripley. And now let me make this clear. This is just a rumor. There are supposed to be 250 wolves in Camp Ripley. Are you familiar with camper? Ugly? Yes. Yes. It's about six by 20 miles that would put about one and a half to two wolves per mile. And there's a farmer a Cattleman that lives near there and he always calls up with the complaints about Predation on his stock. Well, the truth is The fellow only has a half a dozen cattle or so and if he lost his many cabs. He said he'd lose about 1,500 a year. And well, he said I'm like I said, I hunt and everything and you know, the Wolves and the deer have to survive together and I think the main thing is here too that we got to look at preserving the Wilderness at The Wolf lives in so thank you for your time. And thanks for listen to me. (00:22:23) Mr. Lueck a response. First of all, you'll have to the DNR can give you a pretty good idea Fred on exactly how many wolves are in the area can't bravely but let's talk real quickly here about this issue of loss of livestock. I'm speaking from first-hand knowledge. Not what I think my neighbor dud did or didn't do or what? I think somebody else do them talking about situations that I have went out looked at personally and examine you have 30 head of cattle on your farm near a canal and I'm surrounded by a number of people that that have wolf problems and it is a legitimate growing problem in the last 12 years. We've seen the amount of depredation on livestock increased by five fold the wolf populations only in East by 1.4 a factor 1.4. It's a big issue for livestock. There's studies that were completed out in Idaho where instead of caller in the Wolves. They call heard the baby calves so they could find them. Well the information coming out of that study suggests that for every one wolf killed calf that's found in verified by by what we call a kind of federal standard at the people that Federal Trappers out of Grand Rapids. Use there's six other baby calves that are lost at we never find C. We know how many calves we have every year you can take it to the bank. That's what we do for a living so we know what's missing and we have said for years that that ratio is between 5 and 9 for everyone that's verified. We know there's between five and nine out there that never verified that are lost. Now, we've got study out in Idaho that that confirms that so this this Lot of misinformation around about how this is all exaggerated. It is not exaggerated in any way shape or form. It's a legitimate Family Farm issue. You're listening to a special Main Street radio show from the Studio's of K. NB J and K. CR be in Bemidji. I'm Rachel rebe were discussing plans to manage Minnesota's wolf population. Our guests include state. Senator Gary lighting Mike Don Carlos from the Department of Natural Resources Dale. Lueck, Minnesota beef farmer who represents the State Cattlemen's Association and Carlin Berg wolf consultant for the Humane Society of the United States will be back with more of Main Street after news and weather. Okay, let's go Governor Jesse Ventura and Barks On another bus tour to sell citizens on his legislative agenda and a new book examines a political strategy that uses low voter turnout as an advantage. (00:25:01) I am Bob Hunter we'll have (00:25:03) those stories and all the news tomorrow on Morning Edition 529 here on Minnesota Public Radio Canada wfm 91.1 in the Twin Cities. And good afternoon. It's 12:30 one with the latest from the Minnesota Public Radio Newsroom. I'm Mary Ann Sullivan a recent survey has some sobering news for parents of college students. It says 44% of students surveyed last year were binge drinkers. The researchers say the percentage of students who frequently take part in heavy drinking has risen the United States and Britain are trying to lay the foundation for developing new medical cures the to have agreed to openly share information from a groundbreaking project to decode the human genetic pattern officials say the sharing of data will speed scientific advancements Al Gore and George W bush could wrap up the Democratic and Republican nominations today in contests in six Southern States voters are going to the polls and Gore's home state of Tennessee as well as Bush's home state of Texas Arizona Senator. John McCain has assured Governor Ventura that he's sticking with the GOP. Ventura says, he spoke with McCain more than a week ago about the senator possibly running for president as an independent a spokesman for McCain says the senator has no current plans to meet with Ventura. Three young men in Detroit charged in the date rape drug death of a teen girl have been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter jurors also found the three men guilty of lesser poisoning charges of fourth defendant was found guilty of being an accessory to manslaughter after the fact poisoning delivery of marijuana and possession of GHB Governor. Ventura says, the profile of learning is hard work for students and teachers, but that's what he likes about it Ventura toward profile exhibits this morning and said, he would support a plan to excuse this year's freshmen and sophomores from the graduation requirement, but little else Senator Rod Graham starts his focused on the farm tour today grams has stopped scheduled today in Crookston Moorhead Alexandria Willmar and Rochester the senator will discuss his farm in town empowerment plan designed to help Minnesota Farmers. Looks like a winter storm watch has been canceled for the northern part of the state forecast now calling for clouds in the North Chance of flurries or sprinkles Sunshine across the South highs today mid 20s in the Northwest to the 50s in the far south reaching near 50 for the Twin Cities. For Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Mary Ann Sullivan. Welcome back to this Main Street special on Minnesota wolves. I'm Rachel re Be Our Guest this afternoon represent some of the players in Minnesota's long Running Wolf drama. They are Dale lueck Northern Minnesota beef farmer who represents the State Cattlemen's Association Carlin Berg wolf consultant for the Humane Society of the United States Mike Dunn Carlos wolf management coordinator for the DNR and state senator Gary lighting author of wolf management legislation listeners. Our phone lines are open for your calls this afternoon one eight hundred five hundred 75252. The number one eight hundred five three seven 52 52 and we have Tom Myers with us on the phone this afternoon. He's vice president of the Minnesota conservation Federation, which represents a number of Sportsman's Club. Good afternoon, (00:28:03) Tom. Well, good afternoon Rachel and how are (00:28:05) you? I'm fine. Tom and a commentary you wrote for outdoor news last week you called for a plan rooted in logic and sound biology that Provide a secure future for the wolf while recognizing the needs of people in the wolf range. Have you seen a plan that looks like that (00:28:21) yet. I think the dnr's built probably comes the closest. I said closest because no I haven't seen the perfect plan on I don't think the perfect plan exists the Roundtable planned Jenny, I think made a very good point when she said that it was built on compromise and on trust, but unfortunately then Carlin mentions that the trust was broken in the legislative session. And in fact that trust was broken long time before the legislative session with the Well, I think we heard that Garland's group while being party to the Roundtable agreement also intends to sue to block the listing which is hardly compromise and with the program if you will. And I really sincerely and this is kind of a I'd like to make I think I see I'm a dual resident. I live part-time in the Twin Cities and part-time in Cass County, which is Wolf range, and I think a lot of this wolf animosity. And it is there. Is not caused by the Little Red Riding Hood, I think it is caused by the intransigence of the extreme protectionist faction. When we are to the point where we have exceeded the population goals for almost 20 years and we are still two still arguing for Total Protection and we are still still insulting and degrading the DNR which just from my perspective and that is is as a biologist is there is a pretty darn professional group. I know for instance that the wildlife society which is a very prestigious scientific groups endorse the DNR census methods which Arlen refuses to accept And I guess what I'm saying, is that the round table agreement. It was a very weak consensus. It started at all unraveling almost immediately. And as soon as the Browns are trust or broken one way, they're likely to be broken another. (00:30:23) Thank you. Tom Myers of Senator lighting. I have to ask you this question you here Carl and talking about the things going to end up in court. Does it make you think what is the point of going through all this can't we just go directly to the court case if that's what's going to happen. I don't think there is anyone in Minnesota that cares about wolves more than Carlin Berg, and I know there's an individual but we do disagree about the need for the state of Minnesota and the Department of Natural Resources to be the agency to manage. This will successfully Carlin is a very strong Advocate and in the house when she tore up the copy of A citizen's Roundtable agreement and threw it at members of the House of Representatives. I not sure that got us off on the right foot. So she's a passionate and aggressive and very effective spokesman. But I think that display got us off on the wrong foot. I think that what we have to do is to recognize that this animal has stabilized the population has rebounded as Dale Luke is indicated. There are conflicts and depredation. We cannot ignore that. We have to have a sound plan. If unless the state senate tomorrow morning adopts a wolf management plan that is acceptable to the United States fish and wildlife service survives legal challenges and results in the shared common goal of State Management The Gray Wolf of Minnesota will continue to be fully protected under federal law leaving Minnesota citizens without the right to protect their property their livestock of their pets. For Carla and I disagree. That's the worst outcome the way in which you can survive legal challenges is ensure that the plan that you adopt matches the federal process of delisting. It matches the criteria and the requirements for delisting there will be litigation. But the strength of the litigation will rise and fall based on how close the plan meets the federal requirements for delisting. And so I think we can develop a plan that will face week litigation and survive. Carlin / yeah, I've got to respond to a couple of remarks have been made here. Number one. The trust was broken not in the house committee that I attended it was broken the very first house agriculture committee, which I did not even attend when I tore up the plan that was after the trust has been broken and I did not throw it at the senators or the house members at that thing. So I also take great offense effects. They Carlin refuses this and crawling refuses that I represent over 60 National organizations who have we've had peer review of our position statement, which would be glad to share with anyone. There's been a lot of talk from a lot of different people about how we want logic sound biology a good plan. Well, you know what, maybe we ought to go back to the drawing board and see what happened to that plan because they don't exist in any of the bills right now and if any of the individuals who are talking about this compromise in really do want that compromise, it's stopped. We need to stop this rush to delist and come up with a sound plan first and we would be glad to work on that compromise, but just the to rush to De Lis. Tomorrow is not responsible. Let's go back to our phones. We have an entire list of people that are waiting to join this program first. We'll go to Rochester where flow is standing by good afternoon flow. Welcome to Main (00:33:50) Street. I do not believe that of the wolf should be a game animal. I think that the majority of the people want to see the wool protected. I believe it should remain protected and I believe it forms a it is a valuable member of our ecology and performs a service and keeping our ecology and balance. I think that it should be protected and I think the majority of the people feel that way and and so I hope that they decisions go in that direction and in a more Humane Direction than than some people would wish thank (00:34:26) you. Thank you Flo we go now up north to Bemidji where we're broadcasting from. Larry is on the phone. Good afternoon, Larry. Welcome to Main (00:34:33) Street. Good afternoon. I live 20 miles east of a veggie I raised. Registered purebred cattle I sell my cattle for an average of $1,500 a calf. I have paid up to $5,000 for my animals and I have had I have lost the Wolves. I'll be honest with you. I've had more problems with white with dogs running and coyotes and wolves but I cannot afford to wait for a wolf to kill an animal and then have to prove that that animal was killed by a wolf and then wait for a year to get $400 back from the state of Minnesota for an animal that is worth at least $1,500. So I'll be very honest with you. I have a permit to carry a weapon a loaded weapon. I always carry a weapon and at a at a distance a wolf looks an awful lot like a German shepherd and that's the only way I can protect my animals that I have a valuable. I have a lot of investment my animals and I will not allow them to be appreciate by be. Killed by wolves and that has happened (00:35:40) my trunk Mike Don Carlos the wolf Zone. Does that include Bemidji? I was (00:35:47) looking and on the map that I have I can't tell for sure but I think the Bemidji is in the wolf Zone, but I'm not positive on that. (00:35:54) Does it concern you Mike Dunn Carlos? This gentleman's comments. (00:35:59) Well, if the suggestion is that he intends to take action outside of the law. Certainly that that concerns me but on the other hand, you know, we've heard from lots of folks who are in growing increasingly intolerant with the with the lack of ability to take preventive action to protect their livestock. And that's one of the issues that were attempting to address in this (00:36:22) legislation and I share some of the blame last year. I could have worked harder to develop the plan and then we would either be through delisting or near delisting and the gentleman is right. He cannot wait for the legislature. You to act and my hope is that the legislature will act and and not have to for citizens to take the law into their own hands and and I bear responsibility because if I had worked harder last year perhaps we could have adopted a plan. We would have been through D listing or near delisting and this gentleman would have had some hope that he could protect his property. So he's absolutely right the legislature failed to adopt a plan last year the DNR did everything they could to get it through and in the legislature bogged down and differences of opinion and and that's not going to happen this year. We unlike last year where we had another year. We do not have another year unless we act citizens will take the law in their own hands and that anarchy would be the worst outcome we go now to Minneapolis where Glenn is standing by good afternoon Glen welcome to Main (00:37:29) Street. Let me just preface this by saying I have been a hundred a past. I'm not currently a hundred. I'm not adverse to people that do as long as the Possible two questions first is I realize there's some dispute probably on numbers, but I'd like to have people identify how many sheep cattle fall livestock are taken and how many deer the estimates are that wolves taken State and year and perhaps place a dollar value on what a sheep is worth. What a calf or cattle or fall of livestock is taken and then the follow-up question is has anybody considered for those of us that are not hunting deer a sort of non hundred- license where we could pay a fee to the state that would go into a fund. We're saying if we're not taking a deer this could go into a fund to compensate farmers in other words rather than going after trying to reduce. The number of wolves that are predators out there to say, it's natural that wolves are going to take some food that's in their range and those of us that would like to encourage the wolf to be supported could put some money. What kind of a negative license that would help compensate Farmers for livestock? That is taken. (00:38:42) Let's begin to address those questions day Luke. I'm going to ask you first to give us and you don't need to break it down. Totally. Just give me an idea of how many animals are taken by Wolves. It ranges livestock for example cattle on the average a hundred or more year. But to we need to go right back to this cost thing on livestock. The Minnesota Department of Agriculture now is up to spent about $100,000 a year to reimburse people for livestock. Now, that's what's confirmed by these very strict rigid Federal standards. You multiply that 500,000 by 529 and Glenn you have some concept of what its cost of people in agriculture. Let's go back to that second part of your of your answer or your question there about why can't we just pay the farmers off? At the wolves go in and kill the animals and we'll just pay him off, you know, if it was your dog and your backyard and we just said it's okay to let the wolf kill him and then we'll pay you for it. I suspect you might have a different perspective on that that whole idea that farm families in rural. Minnesota can be bought off. We're just going to pay off for your livestock. It's okay is is really a big concern to me because we're in the business of raising life livestock, you know, not in the business of trying to you know, play some compensation game and and no that's not the right answer Carlin. Well one thing that we I've got a really clear up here is that right before me I do have the department of agriculture's facts from the federal government 13 cows for yearling 79 Cavs three sheep. 897 turkeys one horse one go to chickens and 16. (00:40:37) That's (00:40:38) where I lost last year. Now. The one thing we talked about here is about compensation, but we haven't talked about that throughout the world at all. The presentations I went to at the global 2012 conference. Everybody who is having conflicts whether it be Spain Italy Yugoslavia all discussed that the number one way to not have losses is good husbandry and preventative things in place and that includes non-lethal we're saying is that there are many non-lethal constructive ways a farmer can protect himself and I agree with Glenn that the really the wholesale attack of going after wolves on some arbitrary number is not the solution it is to solve the problem for last year of the complaints that were verified. There were 92 complaints now in an area that has eight thousand farms in it. You know, ninety two Farms is not some horrible excessive problem that we cannot come to a good compromise on and the idea of rushing that we have to get some state plan in order to save these Farmers, you know, that rationale doesn't really hold up because if you go And you delicious this wolf without a sound plan. You can bet believe that will tie it up in court for many more years. It would actually be faster to get a good plan with compromise with non-lethal all the things we were promised at the round table and let's really work out a compromise. Then the course these farmers will get a more legitimate plan faster. We are going to Duluth where Scott is standing by. Good afternoon Scott. Welcome to Main (00:42:00) Street. Hi. Thank you for your time. Thank everybody for their involvement. First of all, I would say that it would be a very unwise thing for - Minnesota to pursue any type of a sporting season were there would be organized hunting for wolves. I think that would open it just a terrible can of worms and divisiveness amongst ourselves. That would just be like the you know, the the spear fisherman in Wisconsin all over again, I could see it but any rate my second point was that I'd like to see the beef industry become a little bit more. Game more of a community socially responsible player here. They seem to be just pursuing only their very own limited interests and not those of the society at large they seem to not want to have any Wolves at all. They seem to you know, the fewer that are out there the better if I see what I'm going to shoot it because it looks like a German Shepherd the caller just said, you know, if I see the wolf then it's you know, it's got to be doing damage that mentality that mentality that all wolves are bad and that I just see the beef industry again being an irresponsible player like they have historically and I'm going to take him to task a little bit in terms of their use of hormones. (00:43:22) Give Dale lueck a chance to respond here. Mr. Lueck. Do you feel like you have practice good husbandry? Absolutely and Scott. I'd like to make a couple points certainly not to change your mind, but please consider first. All it is our stated in writing our position. We absolutely do not want to see the wolf become extinct Minnesota State Cattlemen's Association wants to see the wolf thrive in all areas of Minnesota where they can Thrive without causing damage to livestock owners to pet owners that type of thing right off the bat there. That's that's the facts. I'm telling you our position that we don't, you know, we pride ourselves in being stewards of the land and we don't want to see our environment damaged or destroyed I can live perfectly. Well with Wolves just miles from me on state land as long as they don't come and kill my livestock. See it's that simple there's lots of room in this state for the wolves and we want to see him stay here Mike Dunn Carlos. Let's talk for a minute. About the global wolf restoration. Sometimes it helps for us to put the Minnesota situation in perspective. There were 700 experts from 26 countries meeting in Duluth last month to discuss the wolf. Is it just in Minnesota where we're having the controversy or is it every (00:44:56) place? Well, it's certainly not just in Minnesota Rachel and I think that you know, the general pattern is wherever wolf numbers are increasing in werewolves are coming into direct contact with people where perhaps they haven't in recent years the conflicts of the same. The issues are the same and the options are the same dealing with recovered wolf populations is is a worldwide problem. (00:45:21) Let's go to Bruce in the Twin Cities. Good afternoon Bruce. Welcome to Main (00:45:24) Street, you know following up on what the fellow who raised beef cattle up in northern Minnesota mentioned about not knowing whether it was wild dogs coyotes or wolves that killed him. Cattle and pointing out that from a distance of wolf looks very similar to a German Shepherd. I reflect on my own experience of having had a purebred Malamute for a time and walking the dog around the cities and having children to is that a wolf and realizing that most most people who are Hunters are people who do something else for a living and if we have a hunting season on wolves in Minnesota, someone's going to shoot your your Grand Pyrenees your German Shepherd your Malamute from a distance. I remember walking through the woods during hunting season with my Malamute wondering if some yahoo some weekend Yahoo with their gun was going to shoot my dog if you and and there's no respect shown at all for Native American views of the wolf as a sacred animal. I think the round table position was a reasonable one that allowed people to protect their pets while people to protect their livestock but a hunting season on wolves is obscene. Thank you. (00:46:44) Sunder lighted you handle all kinds of controversy in the Minnesota Legislature. It's just one controversial subject after another and yet in the realm of controversial subjects doesn't the wolf always seem to kind of rise to the top and why is that No animal evokes controversy, like like the gray wolf. No animal minnesotans different minnesotans attach different values. If you are in southern Minnesota, you probably want to hug the the wolf and if it comes on your property, you want to shoot it away. If you're up in northern Minnesota and it comes on your property. You probably want to shoot it away or skin it and so or howl with it different minnesotans attach different values three weeks ago. I was up at the Swedish Heritage bed and breakfast in embarrassment of soda in the heart of wolf country. I was wearing my denim International Wolf Center shirt with a vest zip partway up never met the couple and as we walked in the door to greet them. The first thing they said is don't let spike out the Wolves will kill him. I zip the vest up high as I could so they couldn't see the Wolf Center and at that point my If our for the information that I was the author of the protective wolf management plan, so it was a very interesting weekend, but I found out around this day wherever I travel minnesotans attach different values, we will develop tomorrow in the state senate a management plan that recognizes all of those concerns. It evokes emotion. There are stories of wolves killing over 200 people in a wedding party in Europe Little Red Riding Hood, but we're going to dispel the myths. We're going to base a plan on science and and we're going to manage this will open and it is controversial and I thrive on controversy and I thrive on the possible the possibility that I can help fashion a legislative plan acceptable to as many people as possible that recognizes the realities and results in State Management. I'm convinced that we can do it tomorrow in the state senate and Mike Don Carlos. Are you thriving Or you just plain exhausted (00:49:05) there are times when I'm exhausted, but tomorrow is going to be an exciting day tomorrow. We're we're poised to make actual progress on this (00:49:13) issue and you're confident that can happen. I'm confident we're going to go to the calls Teresa in Red Wing. Good afternoon (00:49:22) Teresa. Thanks for taking my call an important question here is how come there aren't any women beef farmer speaking up on this issue. That's one item. I'd like to bring (00:49:34) up. Are you a are you a bee farmer (00:49:36) Teresa? No, not at all. But I hear from all the male's that the other side against the Wolves. I never hear from their wives or any of their differing opinions from their husbands on these issues (00:49:49) in your question (00:49:51) is how come there aren't any women be Farmers talking up on this issue (00:49:55) still look Teresa. I can I can assure you my wife could have appeared here in my place, and she I would have put a little different spin on things maybe but she will she can speak well or better for our beef operation that I can but you raise a good point and I can assure you. I mean if we could get together off the air I can give you ten twelve phone numbers and you can talk firsthand to people's wives people are involved in that can explain to you basically the things I've said from their perspective and you'll find they're just about identical as far as their impression Harlan. Do you expect to be at the legislature tomorrow? Well, I don't know. It sounds like a lot of fun. Doesn't it? Especially I'd like to go down there and see where all the science is in this plan because I sure haven't read any of it in any of the existing plans. I also think it's kind of interesting on the collar about women because Dennis Edison basically in the Minneapolis Tribune accused all people who do like Wolves of being uneducated females, and I think it's kind of interesting because As we certainly have Evendale disagrees with that. Thank you Dale. But I've studied the world for nearly 30 years. And what I think is interesting that has not come up in any of the bills or any of the supposedly scientific management techniques that were being hailed and these plans is there's been nothing about non-lethal nothing about looking at preventive things. There's nothing about habitat in any of those bills. There's nothing about what the wolf needs as far as management anything about the social behavior. All those things have been left out of that and they were briefly very briefly discussed at the round table, but I'm saying is that if we really want to claim that we have a scientific plan that we can display before the rest of the nation and believe me not only is this nation washing but other countries are watching because they're wondering how we're going to manage this and I think it's kind of ridiculous that right. Now what we've got is a pretty free-for-all killing plan when last year there were two hundred five complaints and only 80 of us 887 of those turned out to actually be related to wolves and Ladies and gentlemen, you see what the problem is in the wolf controversy this morning a wide Divergence of opinions Mike Don Carlos Carlin Birkdale Luke Gary lighting. Thanks for being with us today. The special Main Street radio broadcast is a production of Minnesota Public Radio. Our Engineers are Cliff Bentley in Bemidji, Randy Johnson in st. Paul our producer Sarah Mayer site producer Tom Robertson executive producer Mel summer. We'd like to thank Christie booth and the staff of K and BJ and Casey are be for making this broadcast from Bemidji possible. We invite you to visit the Main Street website go to npr.org and click on Main Street. You'll be able to hear this broadcast as well as other Main Street reports the address MP r dot o-- r-- g-- Minnesota public radio's Main Street team consists of twelve reporters at NPR bureaus across Minnesota. I'm Rachel rebe. I'm Lorna Benson, if you want in-depth news coverage from a Global Perspective. Listen to All Things Considered you'll hear all the top stories plus analysis. You don't get elsewhere. It's all things considered weekdays at 3:00 here on Minnesota Public Radio. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. It's 44 degrees at KN o WF M 91.1 Minneapolis-Saint Paul Twin Cities weather for today calls for partly sunny skies with high temperature of 45 degrees. 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