(00:00:10) Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Ray be sitting in for Gary eichten. Even though poll after poll shows voters against it, even though the polls also show po Lads ownership has nothing to do with it. Even though the legislature has shown no willingness to support it. Even though the governor's against it, even though the supposed economic benefit of a new stadium is unproven even though all these things hold St. Paul Mayor Norm. Coleman is trying to get the twins to move to st. Paul into a stadium. That would be mostly built with public money. Mayor Coleman spelled out the details Monday night. (00:00:51) I am thrilled to announce that we have reached a historic agreement with the Minnesota Twins. We've got a whole new ball game in st. Paul and that ballgame is presenting us with the opportunity to bring Minnesota Twins baseball to st. Paul this agreement coupled with the successful initiative vote in November and approval from the legislature will save Major League Baseball in Minnesota for generations to come this agreement could not have been raised without the cooperation of Carl pole out of the pole at family. I will tell you that from the very beginning in my dealing with them. They have been committed to keeping the twins in Minnesota and they've worked hard with us to ensure that tonight a major provision of this agreement is that the polite family will sell 100% of its interest in the Minnesota Twins by October 1st. 1999, Major League Baseball has authorized the sale of the Minnesota Twins to a new ownership group as well as authorized the move of the Minnesota Twins de saint-pol if we are successful in our efforts. This new ownership group must and this is a requirement of Major League Baseball be committed to keep investing in a competitive team and that's the phrase. That's when you lose at this note new ownership group will be required as part of the approval of Major League Baseball to invest in putting a competitive team on the field of Minnesota and bring new energy and excitement to baseball in Minnesota and they must keep the team in Minnesota and in st. Paul another main point of this agreement. Is that the city of st. Paul Minnesota Trends which contribute 8.5 million dollars per year to the construction of a 325 million-dollar outdoor Ball Park in st. Paul now at this time, we do not know the exact amount the state will be asked to contribute but we believe it to be approximately the 1/3. So this is the 1/3 1/3 1/3 that we have been seeking an addition the state share the contribution will be guaranteed by the team in the form of taxes generated by the team so they will guarantee the That the principle that the state puts into this will in fact be match be covered by taxes that they generate that would be laid out. In other words, if for some reason taxes collected as a result of the presence of the Minnesota Twins, do not equal the state share of the contributions. The twins have guaranteed that difference it over after 10 year period they'd write a check for that difference. The net effect of this provision is that the team is committed to paying about one-third of the cost of the stadium the ballpark but guaranteeing two-thirds of the cost of construction of the ballpark in addition. The twins have agreed to pay any cost overruns for the construction of the new apart Ballpark and they will also pay operating cost for for the of the team and and cover maintenance of the facility furthermore the city of st. Paul and the state of Minnesota will benefit financially from any subsequent sale of the Minnesota Twins to any future owners that the city and state and we've combined the state have an interest in the future increase in value of the Minnesota Twins. I believe this agreement Rive Rivals and in fact goes beyond any agreement and construction as any agreement of the country as it relates to the construction of a new ballpark. We have also accomplish a task that Major League Baseball the Twins and the City of st. Paul have all agreed that was vital. We all believe that we all were committed to this and Is taking the wheels off this team this team is committed to being in st. Paul the lease is for 30 years and there are Provisions in their will that will effectively guarantee that (00:04:30) that's mayor Coleman outlining the new twins deal speaking Monday night. The mayor was unable to Be Our Guest and this hour of midday, but City councilmember Chris Coleman a member of the team that put the deal together is with us to take your calls and questions. Of course, no relation 6512276 thousand in the Twin Cities 6512276 thousand or one eight hundred two four to Twenty Eight. Twenty eight one eight hundred two four to Twenty Eight Twenty Eight. We are happy to take your basic questions on the twins deal. If you're just still gathering information or to take your opinion on it to 6512276 thousand or 1-800 to four to Twenty Eight Twenty Eight council member. I think we might get one or two. (00:05:14) I suspect there may be a little interest out there. Yeah. (00:05:17) So what's the case for the city of Paul needing the twins. (00:05:21) Well, I don't I don't know that's a question in need. It's a question of whether it fits into our plans for the future of the city of st. Paul in our attempts to revitalize the urban core of the downtown area. I think if you look at where it stadiums have been successful in a vital part of revitalizing cities, it can be a very helpful thing. If you look at words done poorly Metrodome be any being probably the prime example, it's a it's not a good investment of public dollars, but I think if you if you do it, right it does have potential and I think that that's where this debate should be focused, but I'm still can I'm confused about (00:05:56) there not being a need why put all this effort into it. If you're not sure the city needs the twins. (00:06:01) Well, I think you can look at any individual project and say there's not a there's not a need for that particular project. You can look at a park. You can look at a public space. You can look at a particular office building or an industrial area and say on an individual basis. There's not a need for that. But if we get that can that be an important part? Of what our overall strategy is for the city or for the region? I think that what we're trying to do here is just to say we have seen examples where baseball stadiums have been a very large contributor to the vital Urban core. And is there a way that we can do that that the voters will accept that the that the public and the legislature will buy into and and keep the twins here. So it's I am not going to say that you know, nothing is going to wither and die in downtown st. Paul if we don't get the twins, I just think it's worth debating the issue and to see whether or not there's an opportunity to keep them here (00:06:53) but isn't there a way to do it without getting I can just going to be criticism coming saying you're bailing on ballplayers you're bailing out, you know, the zillionaire owner, you're supporting a system of Major League Baseball the you know does is not financially sound and from the city's point of view of the Public's point of view. Why are you doing all this aren't there isn't there a better place for the city to put like Eight and a half million dollars a year for the next 30 Years. (00:07:23) Well, I think you can you know, you actually that's a pretty multi-part question. You could do a lot with a half-million-dollar. Well, you can do a lot with eight and a half million dollars. We have a we have a sales tax right now half cent sales tax in the city of st. Paul with which we're doing a lot. We have not only the the Reconstruction of the convention center that's being paid for out of that van. But we have Arts projects. We have neighborhood projects. We have yes on Saturday a dedicated a bus shelter that was built on Grand in Victoria that was paid for out of that half-cent sales sales tax dollars to absolutely absolutely no question that you can do a lot with various pools of money, but we spend millions of dollars every year in the city of st. Paul and and hundreds of millions of dollars throughout the state of Minnesota and various projects that we assess to see where does this fit in we spent we're spending twelve million dollars right now on the renovation of Harriet Island that money doesn't go to feed anybody. It doesn't go to house anybody. It doesn't go too close anybody but Say that that's an important part of the vital Urban fabric of the city of st. Paul. And so we say is it worth it to spend that money. There. Are there other projects that could go to sure but it's all part of a mix. There's no there's no one piece to any puzzle that that shows us what you know, we need for a city but you put the pieces together and all of a sudden you have a very vital City. (00:08:39) Let's go over some of the provisions of this particular deal as we heard mayor Coleman say under these Provisions by October 1st. Carl polad would no longer be the owner not 1% of ownership left. Why is it necessary to get Paul Carl pull out of the picture? (00:08:57) Well, I think let me back up a little bit. First of all, if you don't mind me changing your question a little bit because I don't want to answer that one actually not I will get back to that one. But let's start off with the first part of the agreement. The first part of the agreement is that uh, November 2nd the voters of the citizens the citizens of st. Paul get to go to the polling booth and they get to make a decision after this debates. Played out as to whether or not they want to participate in this thing and I wouldn't be sitting here talking about this deal with that wasn't the first and foremost part of this agreement. It has to be bought into by the citizens of st. Paul. This can't be anything that anybody feels is forced down their throats that is kind of thrust upon them. If you look at some of the other cities what they've done is they've gone to referendums they've had these votes the voters have rejected and then they went ahead and built this thing. Anyways, I want to make it very clear that if the voters reject this in November as far as I'm concerned, I'll lead the charge against it. But yeah, (00:09:53) but I'll bet in those other cities city council members and others said, oh if the voters say no we won't go through with it. And (00:09:59) then yeah, but they're not Minnesotan so they can't be trusted. You know, we minnesotans we got to say, you know, we got to speak the truth so so that so that's a starting off point. But but you look at the polls and you look at what people have have rejected, you know, people say 80% of the people of stamina, so don't want public participation. I have equate that to saying, you know ask taking a poll that says do you want someone to stick a sharp object in your eye and everybody's going to say no. Well, there's probably 20 percent of the people out there that are masochists. I kind of think that that might be a good idea right? So then you then you start asking the question. Well, what if what if the the person that's sticking this thing in your I was it was a doctor that was a trained surgeon. Well, you know people are going to say well yeah that might be better. What if what if all of a sudden the it's done to correct a vision problem that you have. Well, you know, we'll just start looking at it what the point of that being is that when you look at the numbers behind the poll numbers you say. Well should we participate in a public financing and Stadium? The answer is no. Well, what if the what if the pole ads are no longer part of this deal? Well, some people think that that's an important factor. So what we (00:11:09) just did a poll NPR and kare11 and Pioneer Press just did a poll. Pardon me for interrupting. It said Paul adds really aren't that important effect or the public is just against public. (00:11:19) Well again, it goes to the there's no one single factor that that is that is the important piece to it. But all these things combined start adding up and the in Major League Baseball did focus groups in the Twin Cities. They did they did their own polling around the state of Minnesota and they started kind of going deeper and deeper into the numbers. (00:11:40) So but let me stop here (00:11:42) because well sure it's your show. You can interrupt me whenever you want. (00:11:44) But are you saying here that you think in this in this deal that you have addressed a number of the concerns at the polls have (00:11:52) addressed every every one of the pieces that we have put in there from the polad selling the stadium right there their interest in the team to the the real key factor for me was the fact that the public would be able to participate in the increased value of the team upon any subsequent sale. It's an unprecedented deal the level that we have obtained for the for the citizens of the state of Minnesota. And so that's an important piece take Wheels off the team potential play a role player payroll tax was an important piece and and I don't know that all these pieces add up to public support for this but I know that at a minimum we needed to address those things before we could bring this to the voters. (00:12:34) It is 19 minutes past eleven o'clock. We're talking about the twins deal the st. Paul twins deal and we'd like you to get involved six five. One two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two four to Twenty Eight Twenty Eight and let's address that polite question. First off. Let's come back to that. Why was it important then to get Carl polad out of the (00:12:55) twins? Well, I think first of all there was a tremendous sense of distrust based on what's happened over the last couple of years with a polite family. It's kind of funny because in it going back to 1984 when the the Griffith name was vilified in the state of Minnesota in the poll ads were seen as the great Heroes. We've kind of come full circle now and people talk about car Clark Griffith buying the team and everybody thinks it's a great idea and they hate the pole and so, you know, Gone topsy-turvy here, but people don't trust the bolt the pole as right now. Unfortunately, they they saw what happened at the legislature couple of years ago. They didn't believe that the numbers that were being presented were accurate numbers that they were kind of fake participation by the twins that hold it hold deal. That (00:13:35) was there was one that was supposed to be a donation on the part of the pole ads. And in fact it was (00:13:39) alone. Well, yeah, it was a it was a would get it back that hundred million dollars. They would get back if the when the team was sold back to the state after seven years. I mean they're so they're just the threats to move the team to North Carolina all those things just added up to an atmosphere that I think just makes impossible for the for the Polish to participate in it. It's kind of interesting in these negotiations. One of the things that happen is you realize you know, I suppose I suppose I was as much anti polite as anybody going into the sink because I wasn't happy with what had happened over the last few years, but you realize that this was a this was a family that you know brought the twins to the World Series and In a 7 1991 and kind of remembering back to the pride that we all felt when the Twins won the series it really was kind of an interesting thing to watch this era fade from from the scene (00:14:30) will having this deal in place get Carl pull out of bed better selling price for the team. (00:14:35) It makes it a sellable deal. I think that the bottom line is right. Now if the twins in their current situation are on a marketable item the the what they have at the Metrodome is worse lease in baseball. They don't have the revenues to compete. They don't have the revenues 222 even break. Even there. There's spending upwards of seven or eight million dollars a year going further and further into debt, you know as an entity the twins are losing money a new stadium makes it possible for them to compete makes it possible for them to be profitable and it makes it sellable. (00:15:10) Let's take some calls because the phone lines are lit up and we'll go first adjacent in Mound Jason. You're on the air with st. Paul city council member Chris Coleman. Hi there. Thank you for taking my call. First of all, basically, I just have a comment not a question or anything. This is just a classic example of you know, the government itself not working for the people and I think it's obvious that the people of st. Paul and Minnesota have actually been there fed up with the whole organization in this huge Sports industry that you know, making all this money or what not and I feel like mayor Coleman is going against the wishes of the people, you know of the city of st. Paul they've clearly expressed that they didn't care for whether it's the pole ads or you know the twins it's not that you know, just basically we have to turn to what Jesse Ventura, you know, in order to run our government. I think these are the reasons why you were seeing all these changes in people not really, you know, trusting the government you rub to you know, your shoulders close enough to pull ads you end up. Losing trust like the whole answer. Thank you. Sure. Thanks for calling it. Why should we trust (00:16:24) this deal? It's kind of Interest. I think Jason raises real good point but what you know a few there's always this assumption that the people have spoken but but what we've seen is polls we've seen people, you know, 80% you know to in it depends on how you ask the question but 80% if you ask it this way are against it if you start asking a little bit different way those numbers change, but you know, he brought up Jesse Ventura is you recall the polls All Shall Jesse was going to lose two and one of the things that angered the governor more than anything was people said well vote for Jesse is a wasted vote. This is an opportunity for the people to speak for them to come out not do polling not do anything to come out to the voting booth and say we're fart or were against it and have that that choice and I think it's the way government is supposed to work. I think it's I think it's we put a deal this magnitude. We don't do it on every deal but a deal of this magnitude with this many Hard feelings about the issue of pro sports and about baseball and new stadiums and we say, you know, we're going to we're going to debate the issues about what's important. Look at it. Look at what's really the issues here and then decide what I think is a little frustrating as people get into kind of kind of gut reactions. They hate the pole as or the hate Pro Sports and they don't want a dime for public financing of the stadium. Then you ask well have you looked at the Denver model have you looked at what happened out there after cools Coors Field open? Have you looked at Baltimore have you looked at Cleveland? And if you look at those models and you come to the conclusion, you don't want to spend public money on those things. That's a reasonable position to take other people would disagree with you. But I think we got to debate this issue over what's important. We got to focus in on what the real issue is, you know, people will say well we should bias build a stadium because you can go out and smoke a cigar and watch a baseball game. Well, that's not a particularly good reason to spend three and twenty five million dollars of public money. People say, well, you know, I used to go to Against with my dad and instant kind of nostalgia. Well, that's nice but it's not a good reason to spend money on a stadium either. The only issue is is this a good deal for the city of st. Paul debate the issue along those lines and in the end make up your (00:18:31) mind, you know of two reactions to what you're saying first is that (00:18:35) I could tell by your face, aren't you glad one then I came up with it (00:18:41) and let's get into those in just a second. I'm sorry. I've got so many callers lined up here. Let's go to John in st. Paul and then the Raby reactions. Hi John. Welcome to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. You're on the air Jen. Well, my question is kind of twofold one. I'm kind of interested to know is does the New Deal the deal that may occur Holman is talking about Do the twins exist financially in that deal now can it be presented, you know like a like a blueprint and can we actually say do the Minnesota Twins exist now in a future in this plan, and the other question is what will the new players salaries be since we need a viable team to support this deal. Are we going to adequately increase the pool of funds to make this team, you know more viable in the future as far as hiring star players. You mean since they've had the fire sale? Yeah. I know and yeah and also to hold on just a sec. Do you know what's in the (00:19:52) first I do John the the the numbers that are kind of formed the basis of the steel are getting the twins to a point where they can afford an average Major League payroll. And so that they would be able to put a competitive team on the field. It's one of the things that major league Spa is going to require they say specifically they're going to want to talk with the new ownership group that comes in and make a decision as to whether or not these people have a commitment to putting a winning team on the field and to keep the team in St. Paul. And if they don't have that commitment to both of those aspects Major League Baseball won't approve the deal. So (00:20:25) my reactions and in your previous statement you were saying, you know, it's okay. If you disagree with this deal after you've looked through it and after you look through all the other deals in the all the all the other cities and I think to carry your argument one step further, aren't you saying there? Then that you really shouldn't oppose this deal unless you study it. My reaction would be maybe you don't need to study this deal. Maybe it's okay to be against this deal without studying because you just generally come to distrust Major League Baseball, you've just generally come to distrust the owners and the players and the politicians and other cities who have put together these deals that may have kind of dubious value people feel like, you know, we've been lied to in the past fool me once shame on me. Fool me twice shame (00:21:10) on you. Well, I think one person when I distrust somebody I've you know trust but verify or don't trust and verify, you know, you look at the deal you don't just you don't make an assumption that this is a good deal. I don't think people should do that. I think they should No for themselves, whether or not they believe these numbers know for themselves whether or not this has had an impact. It's kind of interesting. If you look through what happened, you know, the deals that were put together over the last decade starting with Chicago and the White Sox who were basically handed a ballpark paid for by the taxpayers with no obligations on their part whatsoever and it's been a disaster. They're not drawn anybody down there. There's no Economic Development around the stadium. It's terrible deal Baltimore's a similar model in that the the team pays very little for the stadium except for its created a hell of a lot of economic development in the area you then kind of through the decades you got deals where there was public participation, but but the team put in more and more and more into the deal, we now in 1999 in the city of st. Paul have a deal that has the highest level of participation has the most dollars put on the table as a total package most dollars put into the deal by the team and you look at those in and verify the numbers if you If you don't believe them if you don't have an instinctive trust for Major League Baseball and trust me John. I don't I mean I don't I wouldn't believe anything that Major League Baseball told me I wouldn't believe anything that team owners would tell me so I looked at the numbers I didn't go into this deal kind of, you know, wanting to have baseball downtown st. Paul. I happen to represent the areas where the Stadium's would go into if and when they come to the to the city, so I knew that I had to be part of this deal. I had to be at the table. So I start looking at the numbers I said does this make sense? How can we do it that that will work for the city of st. Paul and for the taxpayers Minnesota as I study those numbers and I looked at the examples of where it works and where it doesn't I believe that there's an opportunity here for the city of st. Paul and it wasn't based on an automatic Trust of Major League (00:23:08) Baseball. Okay. Now you're talking about The Logical coherent case, but you also mentioned the idea of you know, maybe people are it's a bad idea to support having an outdoor stadium just so you can be outside and smoke a cigar in an outdoor stadium. I don't know maybe there's plenty of people who will Say, you know, it's not a the economic benefit is unproven. But you know, I'm willing to I'm willing to help build a ballpark just so we can have outdoor baseball because baseball is fun and to quote Mike back fun is good. And you know who cares about the finances of the city's going to spend our (00:23:43) money because I'm fun fun is you know, (00:23:45) good. He's gonna spend our money on something outdoor ballpark. Okay? Why not go after that argument? Why not make that (00:23:50) case. Well, you know, if you look at a dollar for dollar benefit analysis of Major League Baseball in a city, it's unproven what the exact impact it is there clearly has some impact if you do it right that no question in Denver the people on Lodo the area where the stadium was built say that the Redevelopment of the area was was accelerated 12 years at a minimum. If you look at the taxes that were collected in and around the stadium and Denver increased by tens of millions of dollars the year the stadium opened whether all of that adds up to the public participation. It is not clear. But what we do know is that we you know, we put dollars into things that don't have a dollar for dollar return but they add to the overall fabric of the community and I think that this is even if you don't show a dollar for dollar return you can still make a case that this overall it's a good investment when you consider all the factors including the kind of you know, what it what it means to have professional sports in your community. I you know, I'm a I'm a bit skeptical that argument because I don't think it's a be all end. All the Twin Cities are going to survive without Major League Sports. I think it's a piece so that makes it a little bit better place to live. (00:25:00) It's 11:31. You're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. This is Robert Siegel All Things Considered is more than a news program. We bring you stories about ideas about the Arts about interesting people and developments in our lives that haven't made headlines. At least not yet. We bring you the stories of commentators the insights of Scholars and the experiences of all sorts of Americans. And we start with the day's news tune in later today to NPR's all things considered All Things Considered starts at 3 weekdays and Minnesota Public Radio time now for us to get a look at the news from Minnesota public radio's Greta Cunningham. Thanks John and good morning officials with the Boy Scouts of America are calling today's New Jersey Supreme Court ruling sad the New Jersey Court today rejected the scouts ban on gays a band that resulted in the dismissal of a gay scoutmaster an appeals court found last year that the scouts violated New Jersey Law when they dismissed assistant scoutmaster James Dale. He was fired after the organization found out. He's gay the Boy Scouts had argued the organization has the right to pick its own members. They say they will appeal the case to the US Supreme Court people in Atlanta observed a moment of silence this hour for the victim of Mark Barton shooting rampage around two thousand people are expected at a Citywide memorial service for the twelve people Barton killed before killing himself nine of the Thirteen people Barton wounded. Remain hospitalized including two in critical condition. NATO has named British defence. Secretary George Robertson as its new Secretary General Robertson replaces Javier Solana of Spain who is expected to step down in October. Solana is a former Spanish foreign minister and is to become the European Union's High representative for foreign and security Affairs Raisa Gorbachev. The wife of the former Soviet leader is being treated for acute leukemia. She's being treated at a German clinic and is undergoing chemotherapy. The clinic says she's in a very weakened condition Risa Gorbachev was the first first wife of a Soviet leader to lead a public life, but Russians widely resented her perceived flamboyance in Regional news. Katie poised mother is still hoping to find her daughter alive, and he's calling for volunteers to continue searching for her. It was 10 weeks ago today that poyer disappeared from a Moose Lake convenience store where she was working. Donald Blom has been charged with kidnapping poyer a forecast for Minnesota today calls for partly cloudy skies. Statewide with scattered showers possible in the Northeast this afternoon high temperatures near 75 in the north to 85 in the South mostly clear skies around the state of Minnesota tonight with lows near 50 in the north to 60 in the south at this hour Duluth reports cloudy skies and 64 International Falls partly sunny and 68 St. Cloud report sunshine in 72. It's sunny and Rochester and 70 and in the Twin Cities Sunshine a temperature of 74 degrees John. That's a look at the latest news. Thank you very much Minnesota public radio's Greta Cunningham. It's 26 minutes before noon. We're going through the details of the new twins deal. And our guest is st. Paul city council member Chris Coleman who was on the team the negotiated the current twins deal. How much when you were going through all this did you factor in the fact that so many lawmakers are against this we've got Steve Swig am on record Roger Mo got Jesse Ventura, they're all saying no public involvement know we want to go. Not want to go for this (00:28:24) deal. Well directly factored in I don't know that that was part of the specific context of the negotiation. I mean painfully aware of that painfully aware of the uphill challenge is that that something like this would face there are there are probably three hurdles that we got to get past before we even get to the legislature which may be the biggest hurdle of them. All. I desperately trying not to use baseball analogy. So I'll use a mountain climbing analogy. It's kind of like climbing Mount Everest, you know, you everyday you go up there. You spend a lot of time on the hill getting acclimated. You have to climb up sit there for a while climb back down before you can finally do a summit attempt and sometimes you get within 10 feet of the summit and you got turned back down. You never make it. So we're you know, we've made our first kind of trip up to up to the first base camp and we'll sit there for a while try to go a little higher next time and eventually we're going to get to the legislature. I don't think there's any question that that is Not a popular idea right now in the legislature to publicly fund baseball stadiums. I think that if the voters of the city of st. Paul approve a referendum, I think that Minds change I think that people see that maybe the numbers that they believe to be the case aren't quite what they appear to be Jesse as indicated at points that if the voters of the city of st. Paul proved and increase in the text that he would look at things a little bit differently. So I don't I don't think that you can just automatically out-of-the-box preclude any thing from happening quite frankly. We shouldn't be as far along as we are right. Now (00:30:02) when reading of the deal is that the only real cost to the state would be the loss of Interest revenue from the money that the state would have to front for the deal is that an accurate reading? (00:30:12) Well that portion of it's not guaranteed but what the twins have agreed to in this deal is to say that all the revenues are generated in the stadium from payroll taxes to taxes on. Dogs to ticket taxes to various things all those would amount to a minimum of eight point five million dollars a year that would pay off the principal and portion of the state of Minnesota is contribution. I think that the revenues would be would be more than that. I think they would pay off the the state's principal and interest but the guarantee is for the principal portion of it. (00:30:46) Hmm. Does that make it have you heard from many lawmakers saying exactly what is bad in this deal bad for the state? (00:30:55) Well, I think the concern is and you know, I Roger mole, I think tried as hard as anybody could to get something done. He tried every angle that he could possibly try to get a stadium deal done. I think he really wanted to have something happen. I think he I think he was frustrated and his inability to do that. I think the concern is that the new deal is not necessarily a better deal or a particularly different deal than was there before but I It is and I think if you look at the numbers and you put the overall package together, there was never any opportunity for the for the citizens of the state of Minnesota to gain in the The increased value of the team and we have an opportunity under this deal to take a third of that. So that's the piece that's different, you know, there's little bits and pieces that are different here. The first thing that again that has to happen is the voters have to make a decision whether or not they want to do this (00:31:52) on the increased tax revenue stuff you're talking about concessions and so on the argument can be made that really none of that is going to be new money, you know, if a thousand more hot dogs are sold that that money for the Thousand hot dogs would have been spent somewhere else people would have spent on movies in you know in Chanhassen or whatever and it's instead. They're spending it on the hot dogs at the Twins stadium. So therefore what you're doing is taking money, that would have been in the general fund. Taxes on those hot dogs or taxes on them on the movie tickets and Chanhassen whatever, you know and taking from the general fund and moving to a very specific fund. It's very controlled, but you're not really getting more money for the (00:32:34) state. Well, sometimes it's just a shift. Yeah. Well some some of that exists. I mean, there's no question that that entertainment dollars are a finite resource in the Twin Cities area and in an entertainment dollar that's spent at a new stadium wouldn't be spent at a theater somewhere else but to raise but first of all the majority of the money the majority of the what's guaranteed is a pee-pee player the income tax on player salary that clearly is money that is not going to exist but for the twins being in there the the levels I think that the out-of-town money that's there, you know, no one is going to drive in from Fargo to see a movie in the Twin Cities area, but they'll drive into Fargo spend three nights in a hotel bring the family down go to the Museum's they'll spend money here. So, you know, it's kind of the you know, how many angels can you get on the head of a pin economists will For as to what the exact impact is where those dollars would go otherwise, but you do draw people you draw people from out of town from the region, but also traveling with the teams that come into town no question that there are new monies. That would not be here. But for the twins (00:33:38) Mike for Minneapolis, thank you for holding on you're on. Midday. Yeah. Hi. Thanks for taking my call. Yeah, I'm not convinced that would Revitalize the downtown of St. Paul only because of certain examples that I know about like if you're going to build it by Lower Town, I mean those are artists and the slower town area and a lot of them would move. I mean you have to consider the effects that's going to have on residents and places that are already down there and stuff where they're going to build this thing and it's like for example Target Center, it kind of wrecked the whole like gallery and like Warehouse area culture that was down there before because what happened is the spaces when once you get Stadium in the area the spaces surrounding that get gentrified in the runs get jacked up. So what was there? What was there now has to move out and a lot of places around Target Center sit empty and stuff. And so all you have are these sports bars and stuff that get patronized at a very specific time of the day. So it doesn't really Revitalize an area around, you know, a Stadium Cleveland. For example me, just hold on. You just saying it changes. Holy cow. It just changes the demographics of the area doesn't really Revitalize it. Are you saying the sports bars are worse than art galleries? No. I'm not. I'm just saying that That it's hard to create. Both of the same time to revitalize what's already there or keep it going and also bring in a whole new group of people and stuff into an area and (00:35:23) stuff. Thanks for calling up Mike. Thanks for raising that point because it's a one of the ones that's troubled me in this discussion last week. I met with probably 30 to 40 artists in the lower town community to talk about this very specific issue and it is a challenge that we have to address because I don't think that bringing a stadium into the city of st. Paul that undo is what we have been working on for the last 10 or 15 years is a good thing. This has to fit into the fabric that we have. I after I met with the artists I talked with the mayor I said, this is something that we have to address is the something that we have to know that we have an answer to because I think that the Arts community in Lower Town is a very very vital part of the city of st. Paul. So I'm committed to figuring out a way and I don't have a specific idea how we can do that. Although I have some ideas. I think making sure that you know right now there's a lot of artists cooperatives. I think there are ways that we can assure that those remain affordable units for artists and lower town. But if you do that and if you keep the Arts Community vital and then you add 30 or 40 thousand people coming into the area 80 nights a year. It creates a market for that art that's being produced on there. Now not every artist has art that they would sell in a gallery some of them. I talked to a woman that's a draw a dressmaker for dolls and that's a very specific market and she sells it, you know over the internet and various places, but I think that this again look at the opportunity here don't look at the negatives without saying is there a way that we can address it and have a positive effect and I think we (00:36:57) can and and look at the benefit for that the Saint Paul artist for the big mustaches that does Sports art. (00:37:03) Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah that Playboy cartoons and all kinds of things but we won't get into that LeRoy Neiman (00:37:09) thing. That's Italy right knee man. (00:37:11) Is (00:37:11) this Taco go away up. He could have a (00:37:13) gallery right next to this radium bring back Leroy. And again, that's where that should be. The theme of The Campaign bring back Leroy (00:37:19) Catherine wouldn't be in trouble anymore. (00:37:21) That's right. This is a win-win deal. That's right poor Catherine Hebrew. She really bashed him (00:37:26) bad and I'm sure he's suffering all the way to the bank. I should mention too that the Minnesota Public Radio forum is open for online discussion on the twins deal on the web at MP r dot o-- r-- g-- check that out. If you're online get involved in that npr.org the MPR Forum open for business and we'll take a call Rick from Minneapolis. Thank you very much for calling up Rick. Hello. Well, thanks for taking my call. I know it's earlier in the program John was mentioning that this money could be spent on other things and your guest was pointing out that we spend money. It's just a part of what we spend money on but and he keeps giving examples like libraries Etc that we spend money on but in All those examples I would note that there's not. there's not a private businessman in between there that's going to make a giant profit because as I understand the deal the deal is set up the way it's set up so that the stadium Issue is essentially taken care of before the sale. So that as your guest pointed out the team's basically non sellable right now. But if they've got a potential Stadium their price goes way up. So Carl pull ahead will be making that profit. I also wonder what the new owners would think about that great (00:38:48) questions. Well, it's, you know, you get into the complexities of baseball financing and where there's money to be made for the honors. One of the things that we looked at is what what the sale price of the team would be and you know, there's always accounting tricks and various things. But primarily the Carl poll. I would be selling the team for his initial investment plus losses plus operation costs and various things that he's put into it. So he's it's kind of interesting other sports franchises. The value has increased substantially in there has been a prophet upon sale, which is what we're trying to capture in subsequent sale, but the the main potential value An owner of a major league sports team is not necessarily in the day-to-day operating expenses. It's in the increased value of the team. If you look at what happened with red McCombs, he buys a team last year for 200 million dollars. I don't know the exact figures today. It's probably worth 400 million dollars on the open market and yet he's coming to us and saying well, you know want to put 300 million dollars into a public stadium and you know, that's what you should do for me and yet we're not we're not seeing any of the benefit of the fact that this guy made two hundred million dollars on on a double the price of his money in less than a year. So we got to figure out a way to capture some of that. So it's not just a windfall for for people that quite frankly don't need any more windfalls. That was one of the concerns I had gone into this deal and I think we would we begun to address that there is an opportunity for the owners to make some money if there's an increase in the value of the team. They're not going to make money on it on a year-to-year basis based on the operating expenses of the team. But if and when they do make a profit from the team the city Be able to participate in that (00:40:30) two questions is are the city in the state. And this deal getting are they guaranteeing Carl polad a price for his (00:40:40) team not we're not involved in any pricing of the team. We're not that's that's going to be between him and the new owners. (00:40:47) Okay question number 2 and the possible future sale of the team. Am I right that the after so it's going to be sold polad will sell it to somebody to the ownership group or whatever if it's so if that group then sells it in the future by as you've said by all accounts, it would be appreciated in cost of the sale cost of the the sale price that you get would be a lot more does this and but the city and the state each get a part of that appreciated value right? Do they each get a sixth? Is that (00:41:20) right? Well that that specific formula hasn't been figured out. What we've said is the public the taxpayers of the state of Minnesota. City state would get a third of the appreciated value of the team. Hello. Could that be well, you know, I guess the more important question (00:41:37) is could it how much of the debt could have (00:41:39) payoff? Well, it could pay off all of it depending on the circumstances depending on when and went when that's old. And for how much if you take the Red McCombs situation again, you know two hundred million dollars while third of that is a heck of a lot of money for the taxpayers of the state of Minnesota. If we were participating in that deal, you know, the Washington Redskins just hold for 8 million dollar or 800 million dollars. Obviously. They're you know, this is a big buck industry and I don't believe that we should participate in the saying unless we have an opportunity to capture some of the benefits of that that was the that participating in the increased value. The team was a drop-dead negotiating point for the city of st. Paul it we were not we were prepared to walk away from this deal unless we were able to participate in that (00:42:23) and Is this different from the public ownership that the owners have been? Major League Baseball. (00:42:31) Yeah, I mean it is different. It's you know, it's not ownership or say it's an opportunity to participate in the sale of the team one-time payout but we know one of the things that we talked about is is there an opportunity to sell, you know, 49% of the the interest in the team and public stock. Is there a way to do that that opportunity we couldn't figure out a way to work that into the into the specific negotiations because there's complexities of selling stocks and commitments of the new owners. But but we've I've talked with some people that are interested in buying the team who said that that you know, they wouldn't be opposed to that. They think it would be a good thing. It would help them out for operating capital and all those (00:43:08) things needs to have to get that passed the on earth. Oh, (00:43:11) yeah. I mean, you know any other Mega dog owners. Well, I don't know about that particular piece you probably you probably do I think of it. I think it was a 49% interest in non-controlling interest Public's eye Cleveland is done it and and the the sale of the stock and Cleveland it was snapped up in Instantaneously the people of the city of Cleveland bought into the team (00:43:33) Beth from Edina. Thank you for calling. Midday. You're on the air. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I have several comments and their questions kind of woven into them. I just have to say I do agree with previous callers that people have spoken loud and clear in this state the taxpayers that they do not want public financing and we keep wondering why this is brought up, you know part of the reason that the voting percentages go down and down and down with every election is that people feel nobody cares? Nobody listens to them and we really feel that we've said what we want to say about this issue. But well I bring that point on that point Beth Chris Coleman here is said well you haven't said no to this particular issue. You said no one in polls to other permutations of the (00:44:24) starwell more important. Can I just jump in there? (00:44:28) Keep coming back until the words worn down. But can I just can I just (00:44:32) jump in because I want to I want to ask you it's not even that we haven't said no to this particular question. It said it's never been put to a vote polls to me. If we believe polls Jesse Ventura wouldn't be Governor. Now some people might think that's that would be better but you know, I won't get into that issue. But but but the point of the matter is that people I get a lot of calls on any particular issue that I'm working on in the city of st. Paul and there a lot of very very vocal opponents to any particular issue, but when I go out into the street and start talking with people and we start talking about the details of any deal the polls don't necessarily tell me what I need to know that the voting booth does and that's and again that's why I'm sitting here because because it's an opportunity for the voters in the city of st. Paul to have their say (00:45:19) Major League Baseball changes its Financial structure. It's really, you know, it's questionable whether a market the size can really support a team and can really bring in the revenues that it needs. I mean that is a real big issue to and every time this comes up we hear a wonderful news reports about stadiums and other Market areas and it really sounds as though they aren't that big a moneymaker. They don't really bring in the money to the community the way the proponents seem to say. Well, let's just talk about the small Market yelling mean you're counting on 2.8 million fans a year, which the twins have only done once and their history. (00:46:00) Right? Well, I think that that number is actually High I don't think that was the figure that we were already counted up and I think I think it was based on two point five which is, you know still a large number, but if you looked at the history of the twins, we they proven that they can draw that number at one point. Remember back in 1988. They led the league in attendance. They were well over three million people that came to the baseball stadium a facilitator going to this. Well, it's that's true. But it was a it was also in a facility that no one in their right mind wants to go into on a nice summer day. So, you know, it's so there's a trade-off there. If you look at look at Baltimore, they haven't had a winning team particularly through the course of Camden Yards, but there's an atmosphere that's created where people want to go down there. They want to they're drawn full stadiums. And so, you know, it's not you can't just look at the past numbers. You have to look at in this kind of situation. Can we draw and I think it's a pretty safe bet now again, the risk is on the owners here where they guarantee to the state of Minnesota the cover to cover the cost of the principal payments on the bonds for the state if they are not drawing 2.5 million dollars a million people a year in averaging the the kind of attendance figures that they want to average then they got a pony up the money to make up for the difference. (00:47:19) We're just about a minute left. Every time we introduce you. We say that you're no relation to Norm Coleman. And in fact in the past, we could have also said no love lost between you and Norm Coleman. Why are you supporting this deal? Bob Yates said that your Norm Collins right-hand, (00:47:35) man. I'm gonna have to have a talk with Bob Gates about that. You know Norman I have battled for the year and a half that I've been on the council. We fought on more issues than then we've agreed on we continue to fight on issues like compete st. Paul and affordable housing and all the other things I think are important. The the deal here is I looked at the numbers. I looked at the positive potential effect. And I said, I think that this is worth at least making the case in a referendum before the voters of the city of st. Paul and see if something can happen here and I think it's again reasonable Minds in the end can differ on this thing. But in the end let's let's have a vote. Let's put this thing to bed once and for all the voters of the city of st. Paul reject this The then it's a done deal. I hope that they will accept this because I think if you look at the numbers, if you look at the potential, this would be a fantastic thing for the city of st. (00:48:26) Paul. Thanks for coming in. Thank you st. Paul city council member Chris Coleman member of the team that negotiated the current twins deal the elections coming up in November. People born 65 and 1978 10 to vote less. They're less politically involved and are often perceived as cynical and apathetic generation xers say the problem is with the system not with them. (00:48:50) Is there any cure for the Generation X malaise and (00:48:53) how would politics change if they did get involved? I'm Melinda pankova politics of Generation X next Talk of the Nation from NPR news doc of the nation from 123 weekday afternoons on Minnesota Public Radio. Once again, if you want to get involved in the twins debate check out the MPR forum www.mptv.org.