(00:00:10) Good afternoon. Welcome back to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us University of Minnesota is expected to announce tomorrow who will conduct the investigation into charges at over 20 members of the University. Minnesota men's basketball team including four members of this year's team received improper assistance with their academic work. It's expected that a Kansas law firm with extensive experience in handling alleged NCAA violations will be selected University Minnesota president, Mark yudof says the investigation will probably take at least six months to complete the charges of academic fraud surfaced last week in the st. Paul Pioneer Press Paper reported that four former players confirmed the allegations since then two of those players cited by the newspaper have denied to one degree or another that they cheated but the charges if they are found Be true could lead to damaging sanctions against the University's Athletic program and serious damage to the entire University's reputation money is also at stake. The investigation itself will likely cost several hundred thousand dollars in some legislators have indicated that the controversy could end up hurting the University's legislative requests this year University Minnesota president, Mark yudof has joined us this hour to talk about the situation at the University and we invite you to join our conversation as well. Give us a call. Our Twin City area number is 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll free at 1-888-438-6557 and or 1-800 to for to to 828 president yudof. Thanks for coming in today. (00:01:48) Gary delighted to be here again (00:01:49) accurate information that we've passed along here. Probably tomorrow, you'll you'll announce who's going to be doing the (00:01:57) investigation. Yes. I thought it was very Important to have an independent investigation so we'll be announcing tomorrow who exactly will do that. It will not be done within the university the fact Gathering the interviewing of potential Witnesses the Gathering of documents and so forth will be done by independent firm will just as people send leads and so forth to us, we will just send them over to the to the lawyers who are doing this and I think that's the right way to do it. I originally said it would take two months and then I spoke to a lot of people and it turns out I'm wrong. It's probably going to take six months and you need to follow all the leads and I would just urge people. I have a great deal of respect for the media and I think in the end they'll be some truths and some hands truths and sewn on truths that have come out of all this but just to withhold judgment for a bit. I mean, I don't believe in firing first and then aiming we live in a country of laws. I'm about constitutional law professor taught to process Why Don't We Gather the facts and Analysis Lies them and then we can say that there have been enormous problems or no problems or whatever wherever it leads. I'm just unwilling to go after young young men and coaches based upon on confirmed. Although possibly accurate allegations if it were your son or daughter or mine, you'd want them to have an opportunity to respond in the think about it. And these are young men 18 to 22 year old. Let's be fair to them and let's be fair to coach Haskins that is again. Let's have find the evidence and not make charges before we have that evidence. (00:03:40) Did you have any inkling before the stories broke? Did you have any inkling that there was a trouble on the horizon or did this come out of the blue? Well (00:03:51) for me this came out of the blue, you know, it's something that you always worry about my understanding is that Athletes have a slightly bad at better graduation rate than non-athletes. If you take into account all the sports in the women's teams in the men's team, but it's there's no doubt that particularly in basketball and football and a few other sports you worried about the academic side side more but now there are no pieces of paper or no one came to me and said I have a suspicion I should have learned about it with everybody else and what we're doing and I mean, it's quite clear what we're going to do. We're really making all of our documents available. We can't violate federal law to disclose the names of students that would violate the law but you know, we're just going to cooperate in every way we can put this behind us and I've talked to the speaker and the majority leader Mo. I've talked to Governor Venture earlier in this week. It hurts. It hurts a lot. It's serious. It's not our whole university and we'll get through this and we'll do the fair in the right thing and indication so far our that these Legislators will not be holding against the university. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Although I do understand you just you invest in people who you trust and if we handle this badly and we're not trusted that is a reason not to invest but as long as we conduct ourselves with with honor and integrity and try to really get to the bottom No Holds Barred, I think we'll be fine in the (00:05:20) legislature the cynic would say, what's the big deal here president yudof? Everybody cheats why the big surprise here by anybody (00:05:30) who said that to me and National statistics do show the one student out of four admits treating at least once while in while in college and it's also true that Minnesota doesn't rank particularly high and cheating we get fifty to a hundred cases a year that are moved along through our judicial system and that's been flat for a decade as it has been nationally. I don't think that works, you know, someone who says, you know, I poured some toxic chemicals into a lake but by the way the guy next door did it last year you didn't catch him. Let me get away. It were someone says you know child abuse is a problem All Over America. Why do you arrest me? Simply because I injured my little baby here. I just don't buy that for a moment. And so sure there's a problem nationally and it's not a unique Minnesota problem, but I'll be darned if I'm going to cop out and say simply because it happens elsewhere may happen elsewhere that we do anything less than than our best. I would say, you know, you really fail in the educational process. If you don't try to breed Integrity you miss educate young people because Integrity is one of the primary things that should be a driving force in their lives honesty Integrity civility respect for others those sorts of values. (00:06:39) We spent the last hour talking about this question before we get to any callers. I did want to get your thoughts on this is there down the road is there are big-time Athletics compatible with an institution of Higher Learning ultimately when you have have to recruit players who are really good at Lates to to compete at that highest level but a lot of those people may or may not be very very good students. (00:07:08) Well, I think that's a good question. I was actually listening on the radio to some of that discussion and from a practical standpoint, you know, it's easy to make suggestions. Well, you can pay the athletes or you make arrangements that cut down on the tension between the academic program and and the athletic program and there's tensions are real even if the students are high Achievers because they're spending so much time practicing and on the road and all the rest of that and but we live in an environment where Minnesota is not free to go its own way. There is you know, the old this is set by the NCAA and their rules and there will be no Big Ten if at least we won't be in it if we need willy-nilly on our own adopt us different sets of rules. I'm not convinced yet. Maybe I'm just too optimistic. You know, I look at people like Quincy Lewis. Who are wonderful young people integrity and in every sort of way who get who will be getting their degrees and who are material for pro basketball and a wonderful human being I think in the look at Joe Paterno who made an argument recently that he's been able to do the Saints the same thing at Penn State very high graduation rate in his football team and yet it's a very good football team. So I guess I'm not yet prepared to write this off and say well you've got to purchase the services of Gladiators, you know, and really do not student athletes. They're just athletes. I guess. I'm just not willing to go there. There is a problem in any system when you judge it only by the by a the people who violate the rules it was most people don't violate the rules but the system can wear people down in Texas technically every time a professor went out of state or to another country on real professional business. The governor had to sign off on that. Well, that's Sort of a system and the same thing is true here. I think before we turn everything upside down we ought to think about the cost that would impose on under other wonderful young men and women who don't cheat and who do good through their studies and do get degrees and do go on with their lives (00:09:09) University Minnesota president Mark yudof is our guest this hour. If you have a question for president yudof, give us a call six five. One two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight 6512276 thousand or one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Ali your first go ahead, please. Yeah. Good afternoon, Gary and the (00:09:32) president. Hi. Good afternoon a lie. (00:09:35) Thank you very much for taking my call. You know, I have one question and a very very brief comment if that would be okay. Mr. President is the question I have for you is I mean actually let me ask first of all say my comments. I mean this is students have been able I usually watch In NCAA tournaments or at the but they're them in the men's basketball of the you and I highly support them the governors of Minnesota. I mean this kid is have been doing so great in the past years or so. I mean they kind of like straggle in their life to get educator. And in the meantime to make ministers, Minnesota is very high and you know to do the best they can with coach of with mr. Hastings their coach. I mean like they live in the evening and they come back the next night. They go to Kentucky to go to California, then they come back they study hard. I don't think it's fair and they deserve this. This never should have come out whatsoever. Cheating is something that everyone in our last time we did KISS something, you know last time and I never should have come out and I mean people and the media are making this a big deal and I don't think they deserve that my question is if the outcome of your investigation because I know you are going to appoint an outside firm to investigate. Get this if the outcome proves that they cheer it what's going to happen to this for young kids and one more one more question with this is there I mean because I'm not I don't believe it but I heard a lot of a lot of speculations going on in the in the in the in the streets. Is there any racially racial motivation involved in this I mean because they're black or something like that involving your whole investigation to the president. I will hang up on the think I'll listen to your comments. (00:11:23) Well, you ask really hard questions that I'm not allowed to take the Fifth Amendment here if they cheated and the report would say that you know, Mary Smith wrote a paper for Jon Jones on the 17th of March or something like that. We would refer this these conclusions to the colleges. In other words. There's a whole judicial process that their allegations of cheating the student has a chance to defend himself and there's a impartial panel and so forth and the sanction Would vary depending on the severity of the misdeed and the eyes of the panel so it could be anything from getting a failing grade in the course to expulsion from the University. I don't think it's fair even in a report to point the fingers at individuals and reach a conclusion about what the penalty should be that has to be done on an individualized basis on the race issue. I guess as always I'm concerned about that and so far. I don't see any evidence that that is the case but I am very concerned that we handle this in such a such integrity and and with such thoroughness and and efficiency that across all communities in Minnesota people will say this was done with fairness and but anyhow so far we have no indications of a racial animus here. (00:12:53) Was that a no Did race at all play a role in the establishment of this unique Arrangement, whereby the athletes academic counselor was reporting to the coach as opposed to the general office. (00:13:08) Oh, I don't think so. Actually that's no longer the case. You know, I'm not going to comment much on the evidence. But one thing I do know is that basketball was put forth as a sort of experiment to try having the tutors report directly back to the app to the basketball program in essence instead of reporting back to the director of the academic counseling and I don't know when that happened but my understanding is that that experiment was abandoned and obviously with 20/20 hindsight. It wasn't a good idea at the present all the programs tutors report back through the academic counselor. The main complaint in this case however was not it was not hired to perform academic counseling she had another The office so that's a another sort of interesting part of all this but I think we have to look at those what I call them organizational structural issues and I will charge the various faculty governance committees and athletic committees to take a look at our structure because I don't naturally assume we've got a perfect structure. I mean you have a problem. Sometimes you take them because you have a good structure but I if organizationally we need to be moving reporting responsibilities around I'll be happy to do that and I will do it. (00:14:26) The other issue that I only touched on in his comment had to do with in his mind any way that these student athletes have been made to walk the plank here after giving their all for the U of M. Do you have any second thoughts any regrets at all about those four players on this year's team being declared ineligible. Thus they couldn't play in last week's game and for three of them, at least the seniors is kind of their Capstone of their career and Any second thoughts about (00:14:55) that I do have deep regrets about that. In my lifetime. I think it's one of the hardest things I ever had to do and it was hard because we had 36 hours. It was hard because despite some indications to the contrary. We really did try hard to find the woman who was making these allegations. We did try hard. We wanted to see the papers that we couldn't get a hold of them. And even if we got the hold of them, we had a day and a half two days at the most to do it. It's not my ideal for due process of law. I think it formally comported with the law but I am I deeply regret it. These are young people. These are allegations. They did not we interviewed them, but they did not have an adequate opportunity to prepare themselves and get composure. I don't think there's much else we could do the sanctions from the NCAA or so great. The loss of Integrity to the university is so great and To maintain norms and believe me. I will be the first one to apologize hopefully to all four or one or two or three whatever turns out to be for having had to take this action action. It really does sad me a whole lot because in most cases again, I believe in getting your facts straight and giving people an adequate opportunity to defend themselves, but the whole structure is built and the governor should have got it right you're guilty until proven innocent at least for that one game and now we've got to go back through everything and try to really do it. Right I do have deep regrets about that. I don't think I could have made a different choice. I don't have regrets about the choice. I have regrets about the young men who would would not play that last game (00:16:38) Joe your question for president yudof place. Thank you. I just have two questions. First is does it does Mister uthoff support the idea of some type of minimum academic standards to enter a university such as was the case with the NCAA. For the federal court decision about three weeks ago which mr. McKinley Boston actually praised appraised at the federal court struck down a bare minimum. I think it was 830 on the SAT to get into school, you know, the reason being that if you can't even pass a bare minimum, how are you supposed to perform academically, which means these poor kids are put in a position where maybe they have to cheat because they can't cut it academically and II would be does the president support that a first year of an athlete's University career. He not play, you know, he could practice but he not play so that he can work on his academics because I sort of disagree with what Mister uthoff has said that you're not purchasing Gladiators because in effect you are it's big big business. I mean look at what the coaches are being (00:17:40) paid. My Gladiator comment was only made if you disconnect the more from the University, then it's not even a pretense of being a student even more disconnected and therefore just there for the financial support. Well, let me say two things about this I Our our University is very Democratic. I basically think that minimum standards are a good idea. I don't know whether 8:30 is the right level. Maybe I need to study it some more but it seems to me that it's it's appropriate to have minimum academic standards and then give these young people some of whom had come from disadvantaged backgrounds and families with one parent or whatever. The situation is then you know to give them adequate academic counseling and so forth. I don't really have a position on the lawsuit if I were teaching my old con law course, I probably would but right now I don't I do support first year players not playing and I think I hope I'm not speaking out of turn your I believe coach Haskins favors that that it would be great allow these young people a year to get their feet wet or feet on the ground. Whatever it is the metaphor is and and have a base of understanding of what's expected of them of the University plant their feet and then In the play in the second year that would be a change in the rules that I personally would favor. (00:18:59) What's the current Arrangement, you know president yudof in terms of let's say I'm a big I'm on the basketball team and a lot of demands in terms of practice and travel and playing in games this at the other. Can I just kind of Slide by while I'm playing basketball during the winter and so on like take one easy class and then heavy up the rest of the year or do I have to maintain a kind of a steady load right on through, (00:19:25) you know, because honestly, can I think you have to maintain a steady load but there are many people more knowledgeable than I about that. I know that we have a you know, pocket faculty dominated committee that makes a lot of the overall decisions and they're trying as best they can to give a normal academic experience to these young men and young women, but it often is is difficult. And I remember recently game had to be rescheduled and actually The Faculty committee met Decision on dates because of conflicts with final exam schedules. I mean you my judgment the academic mission of the University comes first. I just have to say that and we want winning teams and I want winning everything at the University, you know, I want winning career counseling and winning freshman seminars and winning PHD programs. So I want to do well in athletics but academics comes first and first value in the academic area is integrity, but play by the rules Zero Tolerance of cheating (00:20:25) Todd your question for president yudof afternoon. I had a question about I had when things like this happen like at the University, it is an institution of Higher Learning granted but But something is focused. So highly on a sporting Department like it is in problems go wrong. Everyone has anger and blame and pointing fingers. And one thing that you should remember is trying to figure out through all this is what happened to allow this to happen you hit a lady on that was part of a committee that was formed by forget her name in the 80s when there was some of the problems that happened in these the built-in firewall supposedly to stop and separate the esocast let exploring the tutoring program. Well Clements for some reason, you know rope goes down. And as a result of that there was no accountability. This happened not blaming clam, but for what was his motivation on dropping these barriers? Why would he do that? And then the other coaches had that that done to their personality conflict? And you know, why was that (00:21:31) done? Let me say a couple things, you know, I once read a headline that said criminal justice imperfect. Now in many ways that's not much of a headline in the history of mankind person kind there's never been a perfect system. We're all guilty people go to jail and all innocent people are are let go same things true here. You know, we have laws Against Child Abuse, we have laws against running stop signs. We have laws against speeding. We've all sorts of laws. And I don't think any one assumes that no matter how Vigilant we are. There will be zero cases. That doesn't mean once you get to those cases that you do find that you do anything other than you know have the full force of the disciplinary code in force, but That's what I'd urge you to think about it. We had a hundred thousand students between or more from the mid-1980s and or until today from the time that report was done if these were the only for students who did the cheating this would be amazing. It would be utterly amazing in terms of the real world and how well the system was working. So I think what we need to do here is to have a sense of proportion. We will never ever have a policy and a system of the so perfect. It won't happen at all. It's just not in human nature. So what we do need to look as look at the facts who did what here and then once we get those facts then I think we have to ask your question. Is this something that inevitably is going to happen or did we make mistakes and I happen to think it was a mistake to move over the reporting line directly to the basketball program. We've corrected that one and I think we have to go forward and and correct some other ones, but I wouldn't be too hasty to draw some of these conclusions. We have fifty to a hundred students a year that are Alden various types of academic misconduct. And again, we have 50,000 students and I'm sure we could do better and play. I hope we do better and we detect more and we deal firmly with more but we can't put forty nine thousand nine hundred all through hoops and to say we don't trust them when the evidence doesn't take us that far. Is it fair on the (00:23:38) to the coaches to say to them? Well number one, we want you to win a lot of games because if you don't you're going to you're going to be gone then on the other hand. We also want you to do your players to do really well in the in the in the classroom with but you can't having said all of that. You can't involve yourself in their in their academics. Is that fair? (00:24:02) Yeah. I think it's fair. It may not be popular to say that Joe Paterno wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal a couple days ago. He said it was fair. He said the vast majority of his players football players graduate. And they feel really credible teams that are frequently ranked in the top 10 it's hard but it's fair and I don't want coaches the cheat. I mean, I do want to win football games and basketball games and women's gymnastics and and wrestling and so forth, but it's a tough job and but it is fair you come in knowing the rules the rules are we want good coaching we want good teams, but you can't break the rules to get there. If you if you affiliate with University of Minnesota, that's what you need to do. If you find that too Troublesome than you ought to get a job somewhere else (00:24:49) University Minnesota president, Mark yudof is our guest this hour and if you'd like to call in with a question for president yudof, here's the number six five one two, two seven six thousand. That's our Twin City area number six five. One two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 22828180024228284. Get to some more callers right after some news headlines. Here's got a Cunningham Greta. Thanks, Gary. Good afternoon. A witness has come forward who apparently has some valuable information on the cause of Monday night's Amtrak wreck in Illinois National Transportation. Safety board officials says the man is telling investigators. He was in a vehicle directly behind the truck that was hit by a train the accident killed 11 people on the train there have been reports that the engineer told investigators that the truck driver tried to maneuver his semi trailer through the crossing gates investigators say they will re-interview the engineer after he's had some time to recover from his injuries officials say most of the investigation at the accident scene will be finished by tomorrow. The ethnic albanians have signed the u.s. Back Kosovo peace deal today, but the serbs still won't support it and it seems the peace talks in Paris could be headed for a breakdown. It'll has threatened airstrikes against the serbs if they block a peace agreement Western diplomats say the discuss the future of the talks with the chief negotiators in Regional news, Governor Ventura is announcing his first judicial appointment today. The appointing will replace Judge John Stanton who resigned to accept a position at the Attorney General's office. You judge will serve in Hennepin County Minnesota's unemployment rate has remained below 3% for the 15th consecutive month. The state's jobless rate for February was a seasonally adjusted 2.3 percent that's down one-tenth of a percentage point from January and down four tenths of a point from last February was also well below the national adjusted average of four point four percent last month. We're due for some sunshine around the state of Minnesota today with high temperatures from 35 in the north to 45 in the South Clear Skies tonight with lows near 10 in the north to 20 in the south at this hour Rochester report sunshine and 34. It's mostly sunny and Duluth and 30 Sunny and Fargo and 33 and in the Twin Cities sunshine and a temperature of 38 degrees Gary. That's a look at the latest news. Thank you Greta. It is about all 27 minutes now before one o'clock in the University Minnesota president Mark yudof is our guest this hour on. Midday. He has come by today to talk primarily about the situation at the U of the charges of academic fraud and Varsity Minnesota men's basketball program what's been happening? What's likely to happen next but and we've got a number of callers on the line. Let me give you the number just jot it down. Don't call though because you'll just get a busy signal six five. One two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for 22828 before we get back to our callers president yudof. We're going to break for Matt as they say here in radio you there were a couple of things that you did want to mention besides this and I'm going to give you a chance to do that. (00:27:47) Well, you're very nice carry and I'm happy to answer questions about basketball. We just have a few other things going on as well. One thing. I think the people of Minnesota ought to know is that we're having a experience a problem at our academic Health Center and that is that the the market and Healthcare so competitive the university doesn't have all those clinical profits from the practicing Physicians. It used to that used to support health education in the state and also that Moving to a community-based care system, which I think will be great for all minnesotans. But particularly in Greater Minnesota. The truth of the matter is though with with the decline in federal revenues that the client in clinical revenues and the more expensive brand and education. We like almost all academic Health Centers across the country that produced the doctors and the nurses and the public health people in the dentist really have a problem and I really do fear for the future of Medical Care in Greater Minnesota that if we don't solve this financial problem, we are not going to be able to produce the Physicians and the nurses and so forth who do such a great job in Greater Minnesota, the governor's proposed that a portion of the of the tobacco settlement go into this area. I happen to think that's smart when I talk to audiences across Minnesota. They think it's smart and I would just urge people who really want to guarantee the health care of their children and their children's children in the 21st century. To support this proposal. It's very important. And if we cut back it has Grave consequences for Minnesota. The other thing I wanted to mention is we have a great event. We have a texas tuxedo night to benefit women's Athletics sponsored by mrs. Ventura and Red McCombs and Mark yudof, and it involves wearing boots and jeans and a tuxedo jacket and a white shirt and Jerry Jeff Walker will be entertaining and it said Snoopy's camp at the mall the Americas and I'm really excited. I've been thinking I should all donate one year a pancake cook-off and other year will do tuxes tuxedo night and we have many issues at the University and Statewide, but we can all benefit from lightning up a little bit and having some fun together. (00:29:56) All right, since we're talking Athletics are this hour for the most part mentioned women's Athletics. Why are why do why don't they have these problems that the men's programs do? Well, I'm apparently they do a lot better in the classroom and (00:30:12) they may be smarter, Gary. You have to face up to this that is you know, in terms of grade point average is I think on average the women may have somewhat higher scores and I know Chris folks who runs this program has been really devoted to that. I don't really have an answer. You know, it's nationally it's my impression. I haven't heard her many scandals in the women's athletic Department's either. I really don't know the answer to your question. It is true that in many areas of misconduct for whatever reason there are more men who are who are prosecuted for various crimes and so forth frequently the women but I'll have to think about this you stop the (00:30:50) president. Let me ask you this. Do you think as women's Athletics grow the importance of the programs grow and the pressures on those programs grow are we likely going to see more problems with those (00:31:02) programs? We might that's real. It's speculation on my part. But you mean as they produce more revenue and there's no competition, but it it could happen. (00:31:13) Would suddenly it makes a really big difference if you get that exciting point guard from Woodbury as opposed to boy. We'd like to have her. (00:31:22) Yes. I guess I just don't have enough knowledge to really comment. But I do know that you know, most of our athletes are graduating and the grade point average is particularly among the women are pretty good. That's another reason not to say that to write off our student athletes automatically because there's some allegations out here people need more of a sense of proportionality (00:31:44) Jake your question, please yes, gentlemen, good afternoon president yudof. It's a pleasure to speak to you. I'm an alumnus and a proud supporter of gopher Athletics. I've been listening to the conversation and Gary your question about why it isn't the case in women's Athletics that we see this I think it's based largely around the microscope. That's put on men's Athletics largely based on economics and the money they generate so much of the irony of this whole situation is As we look at it, we certainly feel like not only here at the University of Minnesota. But any big time University with big-time Athletics, we're going to see this type of situation develop and if the media was to dig deep into any major program Would we not see this type of an outcome obviously president yudof. You don't have a crystal ball, but I would comment that if the media could dig into it as deeply anywhere else and then find these results wouldn't it be ironic when they also raised the problems of losing athletic programs as we lose athletes? (00:32:59) Well, it's not easy answer Jake. You know, I guess I really haven't taken that line. It may be if you dug in at other big 10 schools or other schools nationally Michigan State, unfortunately spoke to president McPherson just yesterday. They had a problem involving some similar issues to number of years ago the handled and I thought very well so I was asking for advice so I don't know that that could be true but I don't know it to be true, but I guess I'm a very practical man. I think if we did wrong we need to find out about it and ferreted out and I'm not going to judge whether the media should be doing this to other institutions or whether these attitudes are prevalent or not. I it to me it is unacceptable this type of behavior when it occurs if it occurred in this case, and we need to deal with it and there are these tensions but I just can't take the easy way out and we're would be letting the taxpayers in the people of Minnesota down to think that we should sort of wink at these things (00:33:58) and Huge brouhaha, as you know over the timing of this story when it broke on the eve of the tournament, the st. Paul paper is really gotten beat up on that issue. Do you wish that they would have sat on this story at least for a few days let the let the team played its games in Seattle and be done with it. (00:34:16) Well, you know, I wish the story had come out a lot earlier a lot later and it was just excruciating what we talked about before to have the careers of these young men and the reputations of coaches and others to have to sort of evaluate all this in 48 hours and the investigation had gone as far as we know for months, but I you know, I found in life that often you're better off not questioning other people's motives when they editor of the paper said that they printed the story when it was ready to go. I'm not going to go behind that. I accept that. I know these people are honorable people so I don't think it Me or the university to say the timing was delivered. I accept the fact that they called it as they saw it when the information was available. Now, it's my job to proceed with the investigation (00:35:13) Bill your question, please yes. Hi with the modern technology that's available. I would think students could put their name on thousands of papers within five minutes and I just wondered what the role of the professors in the college itself is to make sure that the the work is the students work (00:35:33) and Bill this is terribly difficult question. I taught law for 25 years. I even taught 18 year olds in our freshman seminar last year and where I had my remote, you know, radial course and body piercing and tattoos and but this is a terrible problem you can get on the internet and get papers their whole companies that sell papers and you know, if you're in there and you have 50 60 people in your class Oftentimes you don't know the student. Well enough to say wait a minute. This is above the level you would expect at the students. And of course sometimes students write really good papers. You don't want to stereotype them. I'd probably caught three of them during my time as a professor and I'm sure I missed 12 others the role of the professor's is really to be on the lookout. You know, is there a change in style have you seen that paragraph before what are the references or these references that look like? They come from a secondary source, and we're just copied out but it is very hard on these papers and given the massive amount of information out there. It's easier. I think if you have a class of 15 or 20 you get to know the students and their style, but if you have a fairly large class, they have a big responsibility. But boy, is it hard to carry out the professor's have trouble with (00:36:46) this. Now there were two interesting comments along these lines that I've heard number one how in the world could any student submit while Be hard to submit it, but how could they how could they have these papers accepted some of which were written on what was described as a seventh grade level? They were terrible papers then on the other hand we heard about this paper that was submitted which was described as the best paper this professor had heard and read in 40 years. Is there any it it doesn't seem like there's a lot of effort being made to well or not. What's going on here? You have a whole students to a higher to a nice high (00:37:30) standard. Well, I think again we need to wait for the investigation. But if it turns out that the standard, you know, the paper was unusually good in a set of circumstances where one had reason to expect it would not be or if they accepted a 7th grade paper. Yes, that's a big problem and we messed up. It doesn't mean we didn't get it right 50 other times, but we messed up and we need to alert our professors to that again. And the question is how pervasive is this? And is it true and we'll find out but that is a set of circumstances, but you have to be very careful here. I mean, I don't think people should write off our athletes as a grouping unintelligent or not being able to do their own work. This is a treacherous area, you know, you don't want to go willy-nilly accusing people misconduct when in fact it may have been one of the best papers in years the seventh grade example raises other issues. That is why would you accept a paper at this at this level? So let's take a look at it see how prevalent it is. But ultimately the keepers of academic standards are the ultimate keepers are the faculty. They're really the ones who protect it most. They're the first line of defense if it's not working at The Faculty level. It's not working (00:38:48) North in your question, please. Oh hi. Yes. Well, I am three of my four children are all graduates of the you with Baccalaureate Masters. And one law school graduate and we keep close tabs on our University. We love it. I want to tell you dr. Rudolph that very happy to have you in Minnesota and at the you right now this is not the first Scandal that the university has had and in the past some of those candles have been put into the closet for a long time and then resurfaced and I think the best thing to do when something like this happens is to handle it just like you are handling it bring it out in the open and get in people who know what they're doing and the investigation and have it all out for the taxpayers clean it up and see that it's not repeated. The U of M is not the first school that this is occurring at I mean, let's face it. It probably is occurring in other places and believe me they are watching you and the you and the people of Minnesota to see what we're going to do about this and I too do not want to to put blame. Anywhere right now because it's under investigation. So what I'm saying is good for you. I'm glad you're handling it in the Seine open way in which you're handling it. (00:40:07) Hooray. Well Dorothy, you've made my whole day and I'm even thinking about refunding some of that tuition you've been paying for so long, but you know, you don't mean to be upset about these things. But you know, our applications are up 15% the most in the Big Ten if every wisconsinite who comes to every to every Minnesotan going to Wisconsin to be educated there are two coming in the other directions. We have an 85 percent retention rate and the freshman year that doesn't excuse any of this but there are a lot of good things going on and I really respect your point of view. I'm just a very picky law professor, you know, and I don't try people without the facts and I don't do it without them having a chance to defend themselves. And once we have the facts, then you move decisively to handle the problem Dorothy. I really appreciate your support and I've met a lot of people across Minnesota is Going out who taken the very same position and I'm really proud of how our alumni have responded to out this entire (00:41:06) episode. One thing. I've been unclear on and being a lawyer. You probably know the answer to this assuming that some of these charges turn out to be true. Is there anything criminal in any of this or is this just purely kind of an internal University matter and something to do with the NCAA and sports eligibility? (00:41:28) Yeah. I was thinking about that on the way over here today and I'm not a criminal lawyer but it seems to me I don't think there would be anything criminal. I mean you either violated our academic standards or contractual terms or violated NCAA rules and so forth, but I don't unless there's something in there that I don't know about yet and sometimes investigations do expand as they occur. I don't I don't really see anything criminal but people's reputations people's degrees a whole lot rides on. And it may be that the employment of some very high-profile criminal lawyers is simply a sign of the importance that the athletes and others attached to these charges but not necessarily that there's a criminal component to all this but it but you raise a good point Gary sort of trying to figure out the tea leaves, you know, what's going on here (00:42:21) and your question, please? Yes, thank you for taking my call and I would like to address today the disparities there seems to be in sports versus other disciplines such as the Fine Arts and we are great supporters of the you my husband got his PhD there and watching our daughter go through graduate school in vocal performance. She had to she got not a dime from the you and she had to give up work to go through rehearsals and the music department. It has some wonderful wonderful Productions, which could be A great revenue-producing Factor, but then you look at the salaries of the teachers there versus the coaches there. There does seem to be a great disparity and I'm a great supporter of sports. I love it. I love sports, but I just wanted to voice my frustration of watching her go through graduate school just struggling and I believe as talented in her area as any of the sports figures and I'll hang up to listen to your (00:43:29) answer. Well, and and you strike me as a very wise person and you made some profound points here. I mean to give you one indication. I never dreamed I would get in Sports Illustrated. I just didn't think that was possible given my athletic prowess or lack of it. But one time I got in there is because coach Mason and I were hired on the same weekend and he his pay was somewhat higher than mine. So that that made that made news, I guess, you know in a perfect world. We wish that these things were more equal but in our world the market commands these higher salaries in athletics and if you're going to compete in athletics really have to pay them and I sort of wish that people who instructed in ballet and so forth. We're right there, but you do have to deal with these market conditions. I should say most of our scholarships are need-based a lot of the scholarship funding comes from the revenue that is generated at least by the major sports, but I The question you asked is one that we should ask ourselves every day. I mean where our values what do what do we what does it tell us about what we pay different groups of people when we pay school teachers for example, extremely important but having said all that I don't think you can reverse the market if you're going to have a first-class baseball team or a first-class wrestling team or a first-class football team. You have to pay competitive salaries. And by the way, we are improving things. We have a the dance studio is will be built this coming year and we're trying to get a new art studio and well, I do love the Fine Arts. Although my abilities they are about as strong as they are in athletics and that is virtually non-existent. (00:45:14) I have to in other areas. Let's say the all the the music department. Let's say with the university allow marginal student to come in because you need an O globo player or is that pretty? Much exclusive to Athletics. (00:45:33) Well, I don't know about marginal. I mean, I don't think we should let marginal people in Period to the university but it is true. I think that and I'm not sure whether we do it but across the country, you know, sometimes you are recruiting an oboe player and you wait oboe playing were more than you might say wait a test score or something like that. And that's part of the problem. I mean part of the problem here is you're sifting people in large measure on one set of abilities, whether your musically gifted or whether you dance or whether you can run the hundred yard dash and Quicktime and then you're superimposing the academic standards. And so I guess I would say that is probably also you should understand you don't necessarily just take the people with the highest scores or highest grade point averages. We that's good good, but you know in a major university, you know what you want some The in all its senses and you want people who bring different perspectives and backgrounds. You don't want clones out there. That's part of the the part of the mix that makes universities the great intellectual places that they are that allow people to grow or that we look across a wide spectrum. So and we also have social purposes that we want to serve so I would say that this is a problem and I think that it's very poignant way. You put it Gary. I mean academic scores are important. We want everyone to be way above marginal but there are sets of skills were looking for that are not limited to writing essay exams or drafting papers and your question. Please (00:47:11) president yudof. I hope sometimes you will go into the history of sports in the United States. It's rather odd, when you look at it European universities and after all our institutions come from Europe don't have this connection between sports at all. We have are we had an American he had an Italian foreign student here who was a pot He said in Italy people are more fanatical about soccer than you people are about football or baseball or basketball combined but the university has nothing to do with it. Now the teams here as far as I can see our entertainment. I know we get very patriotic a local patriotism about it, but we root for our commercial for our professional teams. Just as much as we root for the university is for well for monthly. Where does this come from? How did it get established in this country and secondly considering the scandals? Is it worth it? Because heatedly people have mentioned that scandals happen all over and they will happen again. (00:48:11) Well, you know, I don't know the whole history of it. Of course these many of these European institutions bolonia and Oxford and Cambridge and Strasbourg and so forth. They they predate many of these Sports even before they were created and they have a different history and in Italy for example you Oh that there are neighborhoods that have their horse that they put in the race at the Palio and there's a lot of enthusiasm and it hasn't been associated with universities do universities. There are very different. I guess I would say that I'd be happy to learn more than I know but this history goes back a long ways in the United States and I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I mean, we don't abolish teaching English because we caught somebody cheating and to heat we just get tougher standards better detection restructures. We have to and I would say when we outstanding sports teams and who conduct themselves with honor and dignity and that they win games. We all are chest goes out a little bit we feel good about it's a point of Pride it could be organized differently. But this is the way we are and if we look for scandal-free institutions over the last 500 years, we wouldn't have any institutions. So I think he needed sets a perspective about it and I think when our when we have good team And a good physics department at all rolls itself together. We all feel better about it and we have more of a sense of momentum and I don't think we can go back and rewrite American history and pretend that there is not a big tent of pac-10 and NCAA. There's not massive interest on the part of the public and Athletics and it's closely tied to our universities. That's just the way it is. (00:49:51) We're just about out of time but let's get one more caller on here before we wrap up Chad. Yes. I have a two questions or comments. First is quickly quickly. The first is do you see that in the media? It seems to be that most of the problems come from sports that lead to professional sports football or baseball or basketball and do you think of the professional maybe agents or something or the dreams of professional sports and plane perfect important influence players to the point of they don't they don't know maybe care about Athletics because they are thinking of names of Glory. I'll just leave it at 1. Okay. It's almost done. Thank you. I (00:50:29) think it's great deal to what you say and Part of our job is to is to help the students be more realistic that is I mean as gifted as they are these athletes are very small percentage of them will end up as professional basketball players football players in the like so we've got to say now laid him in the investment for the long run is that degree? And you may be one of the outstanding one that makes a professional team and signs a multimillion-dollar contracts, but realistically only a very small percentage of you over the long run we'll have those opportunities. So get that degree so that you can make a decent living. However, you choose to make (00:51:02) it. How do we judge you and the University's performance in this matter in terms of getting to the bottom of it. The number of people who are strong up or how do we know that you've done a good job (00:51:15) here? Well it is, you know, it is difficult. If you're outside. I think you look at the reputations of the people we hired to do the work their independence. You look at the report you look at how the report is received by the NCAA you look at what happens in those internal. Rings on whether students engaged in academic misconduct. In other words your judges by the outcome does the report makes sense does the NCAA think we covered up something or pretty much put everything forward and if academic charges go forward where they sustained in the internal judicial system. I don't have a better way to do it. I think you can trust us. I hope you can trust us. We work hard at that every day. But obviously the certain level of cynicism there are no guarantees. (00:52:00) Well, thanks a lot for coming in today. Really? Appreciate it. Thank you University Minnesota president Mark yudof, by the way president yudof was talking about the tuxedo (00:52:11) Texas Tech's take over (00:52:12) texas tuxedo night and it May 5th, right? Yes, sir. Okay. If you missed part of the today's program with President yudof will be re broadcasting this program at nine o'clock tonight here on Minnesota Public Radio. So second chance to hear from president yudof nine o'clock tonight. Also again a reminder. Sure that where we have lots more information about this story on our website www.mptv.org and among other things. There's a conducting a little unscientific survey about some of these questions pretty interesting information there and an opportunity to weigh in if you'd like again, the website is www.mptv.org. That's it for our midday program Gary eichten here. Thanks so much for tuning in today, and we hope you can join us tomorrow for midday. It's landreau said oh Casper this week on The Splendid Table were looking at biodiversity heirloom vegetables with Master Gardener William boys Weaver that Saturday at 2 and Sunday at 7:00 on Minnesota Public Radio. KN o WF M 91.1 you're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny Sky 38 degrees at Kenner wfm 91.1 Minneapolis. And Saint Paul should be sunny with a fairly brisk winds through the afternoon high in the low 40s clear tonight with a low around 20 tomorrow should be pretty nice sunny skies with a high approaching 50 degrees and that's what it looks like for the weekend as well. From NPR news in Washington, I'm Madeline brand and this is Talk of the Nation. It's our book club of the air today. We'll be discussing Balthazar and blue moon Dubai Portuguese author, Jose a saramago. Saramago won the Nobel Prize for literature last year the first Portuguese authored to do so says Elder macedo professor of Portuguese literature at King's College London. What makes saramago special welcome start with the quality of his writing which is really very very remarkable. He writes courageously huge novels at the time when you know fiction since the One slim site and it tackles the great issues you too can tackle the great issue saramago raises call 898 98255. That's eight hundred nine eight nine talk to join the book club on Talk of the Nation after the news.