(00:00:10) Good afternoon. Welcome back to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us ten years and nearly 200 million dollars in the making last fall after all that time and all that money. The State's new profile of learning debuted in Minnesota schools. It's been hailed as a breakthrough in Minnesota's efforts to improve education in Minnesota the other half of the State's new standard for graduation students now have to pass a basic skills test. That's one half of the graduation standard, but they also have to complete this profile of learning a complex series of tougher requirements designed to ensure that students can actually apply the knowledge. They acquired in the classroom. That's the new standard widely praised by many but sharply criticized by many more and this afternoon despite all the time and all the money spent. Developing the profile of learning the Minnesota house is expected to scrap it now to be sure the profile is eventually expected to fare better in the Senate and some form of the profile of learning may very well survive. But at a minimum the much-ballyhooed profile of learning is expected to undergo some major changes and joining us this hour to talk about the profile of learning to try to explain to us what it really is and what might replace it are two folks right in the middle of the profile debate State education commissioner Christine. Jack's joins us by phone this afternoon and dfl state representative Gene pawlowski Winona High School teacher has joined us here in the studio. And we also invite you to join our conversation great opportunity here to clarify some of the questions you may have about the profile of learning. What is it? Six five? One two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand if you're calling from outside the Twin Cities, you can reach us toll free at One two two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two four two two eight two eight commissioner. Jack's represented Pulaski. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you. Gary. (00:02:09) Always a pleasure Gary (00:02:10) appreciated. Oh by the way commissioner how you feeling? You took a nasty fall today on the ice you (00:02:15) okay? Why would you have Spies all over the place actually wasn't on the ice. We had a power blackout at our house and I found the stairs lord. Well, I hope you're all right. Yes. I am. (00:02:26) Thanks now to start with here this discussion seems laced with lots of Education. Jargon that I think some people at least myself included have trouble understanding can we just start with some simple definition of terms? Can we merge through a couple of these things? So people know we're talking about and commissioner. I'll put the onus on you if I can (00:02:50) please well that seems fair (00:02:51) ten learning areas. Now, what is a learning (00:02:54) area? Well, a learning area is a broad area conceptually like one Is called read listen and view another is right and speak. These are areas that we believe curriculum should be written around and supplied to the (00:03:08) students now, it's not that they're not the same as the old traditional English and math and science and those kind of (00:03:16) breakdowns, you know, they really are the read listen and view. I guess could be called reading write and speak could be Communications or language arts arts and literature that speaks for itself. There's math their science people and cultures. That's I don't know social studies Resource Management kind of sounds like ho Mac. Okay. I'm so yes, it's pretty much the same same old (00:03:41) stuff. All right. Now there are as I understand it 48 content standards. What's a Content (00:03:47) standard? Well, the content standards are actually the more specifically what the student needs to know under those broad areas for instance under Scientific application child would need to understand basic science Concepts through direct experience. That's actually a Content area. I read it to you in its entirety. Uh-huh for the K3. (00:04:13) Okay, and and then we have the performance package. What's (00:04:18) that? Okay, the performance package first of all, this is where there's been some miscommunication. The performance package is a way of assessment for the in order to figure out if the student has indeed learned what the the teacher was wanting the child to learn and the performance packages are not state-mandated their models and many teachers have been able to just take the curriculum that they already have and use that some have chosen to use the performance packages. We have presented some thought that they had to some have districts where there the district's came up with performance packages and said this is what you will use. That's part of where the confusion came in. It was not well communicated from our department as to the use of those performance packages. But basically it's a curriculum unit. (00:05:10) Hmm a couple of other questions here basic information. Now, how do the teachers grade on this? It's a one through four grading system. Is that (00:05:20) right? It is and you know, this is problematic. This is something that we have talked about changing and looking at the the grading has confused some people whether it should be one to four whether it should be for 21 whether it should just be ABCD which people are already used to and that's one of the things that we're talking about and thinking about changing the goal was to help teachers use more of their Professional Knowledge and more of their skills in order to look through a more sophisticated lens. You know, it's basically the this grading was designed in a rubric. (00:05:59) Fashion and is there a failing grade possible on these or is it does everybody pass but you simply indicate does the teacher simply indicate at what level the student is (00:06:13) performing the student got a zero, then the student would have failed. So getting a score of 124 means the student has (00:06:21) passed and do finally do you have to actually pass all these various areas to graduate or is the barest minimum requirement still for a diploma passing that basic (00:06:36) skills test the students have to pass the basic skills test and they have to pass 24 out of the 48 content areas. Okay, as it stands now and and Gary I'm sure we're going to get into this during the discussion today, but the governor and I are in support of changing some of what's been going on changing the performance package and how people perceive how teachers perceive whether they have to use them also to limit some of the content areas to also look at the number of standards and to lessen the paperwork and I think that there should be some consideration of maybe even a moratorium before it hits transcripts since this is high stakes and there are certainly a lot of Kinks out. And a lot of (00:07:19) problems. Okay represent a Pulaski or a high school teacher. What what is your basic complaint with the profile of learning as as I mean, it seems as it's been explained here that the the terminology might be kind of hard to get your hands around sometimes but the basic approach seems reasonable does it not to you Gary that's been the the really problem with implementation now commissioner Jax is new. She's only been on the job about a month. So it's really unfair to point the finger at commissioner Jax but the department becomes fair game last year the administrative law judge handed down his rulings and he was very critical of the department and how it communicated what you have just heard explained by commissioner Jacks now, I'm not only a legislator I said in umpteen workshops what commissioner Jax just communicated to you was not what was communicated to us and frankly the department mandated that Teachers use its profile packages in the beginning. It was only under severe examination last legislative session that the department backed off that mandate and said no, these are only models and they're only to be used as models. So that was the first big hurdle to overcome. Secondly. I think the department used as its philosophy the Epitaph of the Roman counselor and dictator. Sulla Felix no friend ever served me and no enemy ever wronged me who I have not repaid in full and if you complied you were rewarded with more money and more assistance in Praise, but if you complained the opposite happened in phone calls were made to your district superintendent or to your principal and you were told Point Blank you either did it their way or no way now, if you get to the profile packages themselves, the interesting thing about the profile packages even as models is that they narrow the scope of what a teacher can teach so a teacher who has hot for a quarter of a century who has been Innovative in his or her classroom now must abandon things that they've used because they have been limited inside a profile package to do it and you don't have to go far I can go across the hall to my ninth grade math teacher I can go down to the Middle School in Winona and the examples are all there that is a tragedy I don't know why Minnesota would put a system in place that would say all of the things that you did that worked you are going to have to abandon to teach at our way now the department will say well that was not the intent unfortunately that's been the result commissioner would you agree that that things have gotten off track here is there a way to get them back on track without abolishing the whole program (00:10:05) well yes and I guess that would be where the representative and I disagree because I agree with what he just said I do agree that some of this has been mismanaged out of my agency I would agree that our communication was not what it should have Then to develop this kind of implementation and I think that strategically and tactically we didn't go after things the way we should have in preparing for such large reform. So it's no surprise that things fell through the cracks things were misunderstood and things were done badly. But at this point what do we need to do the representative and apparently the house believes that we should abandon the entire thing? I think since we have put in time and money and some people are making it work we've gone over the hurdles that he has already talked about. It's time to figure out what works and continue that figure out what doesn't work and stop doing that and it seems like there is some Universal agreement on what has not worked. (00:11:02) Well, I want to get I want to get some callers in here. But is there a way in your mind representative under the profile of learning if you if they if they manage the program differently explained it perhaps a little differently. Is there a way for that ninth grade math teacher you were talking about? About to teach the things that he or she used to think was important to teach it would happen. If the dcfl would make a I applaud the government Department of Children families and Larson. Okay. I tried to avoid the jargon as much as I can. But if the department would make I applaud the commissioner for saying she wants better communication, but frankly, we have to go beyond better communication. The department now has to take the next step and say we admit this does not work. We are willing to abandon it and we are willing to go to the districts and say you do the thing that makes it work. Now you can say that the communication has been bad with the department. But on Tuesday Gary, we took testimony from surveys of the School Board Association. We're fully 68% of the school board members in Minnesota had trouble understanding this thing now, they're only the people that run K-12 education in this state Ed Minnesota in its pole ranged from Elementary in the 50 percents to Middle School 63% to high school students 71 High School faculty rather 71 Percent had difficulty in understanding and implementing the profiles of learning. Well, that's a tragedy and it's a travesty. These are the folks who are the professionals on the line. They have to make it work. The department has to say not only are we willing to communicate with you. We are willing to let you do your job and not mandate one process for the entire State. You can't say that everyone should teach the same way and do the same thing. It's simply not going to work. I've had a whole range of teachers in my career some for the same subject area. They all taught it differently. I wouldn't expect them to teach it the same under this program though. You will be expected to teach it to say and I think that removes one of the greatest advantages Minnesota has had in its educational system. We're not Arkansas. We're not Massachusetts. We're not Florida we shouldn't be treated as if we were we are one of the Premier educational States in this nation, and it's about time that people in power. Reflected that and I think the governor was right a couple of weeks ago at the School Board Association meeting over in Minneapolis. When he said the bashing of public education has got to stop now work with us. We can make it better. We're willing to make it better. But you have to be able to work with us commissioner. Can you build that kind of local control into this program and still save the program (00:13:37) I believe so I don't agree with anything that the representative has said in his oration just now other than it should be abandoned. I agree that we need to have more local control. I agree that we should not dictate to teachers how to teach a the teacher who taught me 26 years ago chemistry through the sludge experiment would be meeting the profile and that same experiment was just talked to my ninth grader just a few months ago. There's great teaching going on and great teachers can use the curriculum. They've been using for two years 20 years 30 years. It is possible and some districts have done it just that way. So I yes The governor wants local control. We want to have some standards for people to achieve and I agree with representative boy. We don't want to be like other states. We are a state that's achieving and doing great things, which is also why we don't want to have the norm-referenced test that also passed yesterday in the house is expected to pass today in the house (00:14:38) norm-referenced test. What's (00:14:40) that? That means that we will find out exactly how our students compared to all of the other students who are taking this test across the country and while that would provide valuable in information teachers teach to the test. I mean, that's that's what's expected because you want your children to do well and you want them to achieve on the test. However, if you have a state that is already achieving higher than that and your aim is higher than that, then there could be a good argument that by teaching to a norm-referenced test. You are not you are now teaching to mediocracy. And also if you have higher standards you're not aligning your test to those curriculum standards. (00:15:18) Mmm, let me get some callers involved here because I know they have a lot of questions too about this program. And what's really at stake here. As this issue is debated up at the state capitol. We're talking about the profile of learning program instead of house is going to be voting today on whether to abandon the program which actually just got implemented officially last fall and there's a suggestion of a replacement program. Obviously the Senate will weigh in the governor is weighing in education Commissioners. Christine. Jax is with us and dfl state representative. Gene pawlowski is with us. He teaches High School in Winona. If you'd like to join our conversation, six, five, one two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities 1-800 to for to to 828 Randy your question, please (00:16:10) yeah, I I told your person there that I was going to make a comment what what What I don't understand is and I don't understand the whole profile of learning is why don't they just do some common-sense things like make the kids focus on reading and writing sentence structure instead of and how many days there are like, let's say, I don't know. I think it's a hundred eighty days in the school year Well, I got some nephews in that and every time I turn around they got a day off for this or do that. I got a profound thought why don't they increase the school year seven couple days, maybe a month and make the kids concentrate on reading and writing and just basic fundamental things like that and maybe take a foreign language and knock out some this politically, you know, some of this feel-good nonsense and just another thing. What is this? Why don't you just stick with a basic A B C D or F instead of 024. I mean, what's the significance of that? (00:17:15) All right. Well, let's see. Let's take them in reverse. Order a no commissioner you commented already on the 0 or the scoring system and you may in fact change that to ABC program, (00:17:26) right? It makes a lot more sense to me. I want to be able to understand my child's transcripts and I want receiving colleges to understand them and I also want to say that the core learning areas that we're talking about are not warm fuzzy weird things. You know, there's nothing different about Reading Writing math science Arts literature at the these are the same things that we've been learning. (00:17:51) Why are they called that then? (00:17:53) Oh, I don't know. I mean I suppose we could name on that if it would make people feel better. I'm not emotionally invested and jargon (00:18:00) would that make a difference representative pelowski? Gary would not only make a difference that was one of the recommendations that came out of the 11 member advisory committee, which I was on which is authorized by the legislature in 1998 to meet in the fall. We met in September October November December we issued a report to the legislature. We suggested that the number be scope down from 10 to 5. We took a look at those areas underneath and said they had to be dramatically reduced and they had to be in fact, it was my suggestion at the beginning that if we couldn't explain this in 20 words or less we were in deep trouble trying to implement it now on that panel where the Minnesota Business Partnership the realtors association the Chamber of Commerce the very people who said we should do this, we're on it and then made recommendations to do dramatic change and I think it was Bill Blazer the first meaning that said, let me get this straight. We've got Statewide testing which isn't attached at all to the profiles or to the learning areas. That's another area. We've got the the profile package that we're having teachers do and then we have content won't no one could do all that. That's impossible. This has got to be simplified. This has got to be made understandable. So he took out a pen and just said 10 know I can make it five and I think we can simplify this and I think we can go on with the business of educating students. So the caller has made some good suggestions. We also made Suggestions is members of The Advisory commission. (00:19:21) And I must say I've also made those suggestions. So, you know, we're not all that far apart. It's just a matter of now we're talking about even the representative is talking about suggestions for improvement. You can't improve improve something you've abandoned (00:19:35) Gary I would disagree I think house while 15. It's on the floor today is abandoning the profiles as a mandated approach of any District wishes to continue to use them. They will one of the curious things is the profiles are so good if they were that good why would a teacher not Embrace and use it? We are always looking for things to make sure that our students learn if this thing worked as well as the people in st. Paul think that it does why aren't we embracing it and I've been in teaching for twenty four years, which I'm sure some people would say that I'm still using all of the old things I used before. Well frankly. I'm not I use more technology than I ever used before. I'm using the internet. My students are doing things. They could not have done five years ago, but frankly. If you put me inside a profile package, I'll have to abandon some of those things that does not make (00:20:24) sense. Now Gary some districts are using the profile and using it successfully Richfield Grand Rapids. Just come to my mind right now. But the the thing to think about too is when the representative talks about the the teachers the survey of 603 teachers while they indicated by a large margin that they were unhappy with the profile in current form. They went on to suggest areas of improvement and 84 percent said that changing the paperwork and getting rid of the excessive paperwork would be a major Improvement and and we are committed to doing that (00:21:00) Lisa your question. (00:21:02) Well, I have a lot of questions, but I'm going to try to reduce it representative pelowski with all due respect, you know, you're citing the 68% from the survey from the boards of Education that found it difficult to understand but you're failing to mention that two-thirds full two-thirds supported the idea. Of high standards. If once again, we address the implementation issues and I think that's an important piece that needs to get out there. The other thing is when we talk about going back to basic skills, the basic skills for the 21st century are not the same basic skills that we needed in 1970 Reading Writing and Mathematics is not good enough for our kids. They also need to know how to use technology. They need to know how to look at data. They need to know how to take that data analyze it and justify their analysis. They need a lot of skills not to mention getting along with other people in a diverse Society beyond what we needed in 1970. We have to change with the needs of our constituents which our students but my question is and maybe it's a soft the topic and not the appropriate place to ask it but I'm hearing lately that there's and particularly in the st. Paul press if you read the editorial page, there's a column in there today by Deborah lock and sees mentioning that a lot of the things around the profile aren't just about what what kids need to know and it's not really a discussion just about what's good for kids, but there's a big political and social issue out. Are particularly from our far right wing ranks, and I'm just curious. I mean they have organized themselves against this thing and they're systematically sending letters and they're going around the state and giving talks on how bad the profile is and sometimes it's blatant lies and I'm curious how you see that playing into this whole political Arena at the (00:22:36) Capitol. Okay. Well for one thing we're hoping today to sort through some of the the actual information here today in terms of the charges and counter-charges. I represent a plus key does the profile of learning equal higher standards and don't you have to change with the times come up with new ways. It just just emphasizing the old-fashioned Basics just isn't enough anymore. First of all, Gary one of the interesting arguments that we always get is anytime you criticize this thing. You are somehow not for high standards and that I think is one of the real problems that has come about now the far-right. I've not been a supporter of The Advocates of the far right and what they perceive to be in this frankly. I don't see those issues. In the implementation of the profiles mine's a more practical nuts-and-bolts approach and it also presumes that we have not had standards up to this time that so far the public education system in Minnesota, which is ranked one of the best in the nation has somehow not had standards. I agree with the standards that existed in both the current adoption of the graduation Rule and in the house file, I have no problem with putting my students up to the highest standards. My problem has been always with the implementation of this thing and the horrible way, it was communicated to public education. And in fact the the it was it's always been done by public education isn't performing in Minnesota. Therefore we will force you to do something that we don't really know will work. I would like to know from anyone where this has been tested and what type of assessment has been put on this type of approach to public education that validates its use in any classroom aside from the pilot sites that were given extra money release time to do it now if we That in every school district all three hundred-plus school districts the amount of money we would be spending would be from Far excess of 200 million dollars. So if you want to do that, then we're looking at a whole different number and a whole different approach commissioner. Is there any is there good sound educational research Behind The Profile of learning (00:24:39) approach. This is a research-based approach. Yes. I don't have that data and I can't give you citations right now, but it was it was brought to be based on research and I do want to go back to what representative pelowski was just talking about. He was very impassioned just now a talking about how this has been a communication problem and an implementation problem and I couldn't agree with him more and as he knows I only been here for weeks and I saw this right away as a serious problem. But again, I say is a communication problem and an implementation problem solved with Lesion or is it solved by the agency who screwed up unscrewing it (00:25:23) up to mention our representative Pulaski? Why not give these folks a chance to get get some of the some of the untidy parts of this cleaned up and move on. I think house file 15 does that I think the bill does begin to put us on the road to making sure this works and I'd go a step further because of some of the criticism that's been made. I chaired the higher education finance committee in the last legislative session. We targeted three million dollars to the colleges of Education to do three things produced students teachers who would be able to implement the graduation rule to produce teachers who would be able to be technology literate and the third was to ensure that our colleges of Ed worked with the school districts in order to do the first two now Gary to show you how poorly the department communicated this at all the hearings we had in this legislation. No one from the Department ever attended in Lozano who was supposedly the coordinator between the department and higher education. I only met in June of 1998 in Winona. I came up to her and said, you know we put this money and I'd like some reaction from the department at some point in her response was well. Oh, yeah, I heard about that. That's a good thing. That's the scope of the problem that the department has. So is I compliment the new commissioner on saying that she needs to communicate better, but it's got to be more than that. They're going to have to offer rational solutions to the problems that they have created in our school districts in our classrooms. It's not just saying communication. Now, you better go out there and find a way to do this better than it's been proposed over the last 10 (00:26:58) years. But you know what I would like to be given that chance. Thank you and I do want to say that it regarding house file 15. I did speak to the author of that representative Marty Seifert just yesterday after it had passed out of committee and we talked about this versus the profile and when I Lying to him my concern and I think that represented Pulaski is a very serious concern and that is that even though there are a lot of similarities. I mean, I think one could argue that you're getting rid of the profile and then you're putting in its place something very similar just with more local control and less paperwork, which is what I want to do anyway, but when you take away a reform that that a lot of people have worked on that is working for some people not working for other people. But in many ways has Shell Shocked the community and has frustrated people and has been poorly communicated and just as people are starting to get it you pull it out and throw yet another reform on top of them. I think you run a great risk of adding more confusion and muddying the waters even more and that's one of the things I'm concerned about if we want local control and want to be service oriented and help teachers teach. Maybe we should fix what the reform we have going now in ways that we all agree is fixable rather than to throw on yet a whole new reform out (00:28:17) there. Well, So let's take a break here. We've got another half hour to go and we'll get back to our conversation here. We want to catch up on some news headlines briefly. We're talking about the profile of learning State education commissioner Christine Jack's dfl state representative. Gene pawlowski are with us. And again, if you'd like to join our conversation, six, five, one two, two seven six thousand outside the Twin Cities one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight Eric Janssen. What's in the news Well US senators are some of them are still hoping to vote on the articles of impeachment late today, but they've broken for lunch and Republican leader Trent Lott says a vote tomorrow seems more. Likely Colorado Republican Wayne Allard is the latest to announce how he'll vote guilty on both counts. The White House. Meanwhile says President Clinton intends to campaigned vigorously for Democrats in 2000, but his spokesman Joe Lockhart disputes in New York Times report saying Clinton plans to seek revenge with an offensive against Republicans who have impeached him some American airlines passengers are still having trouble getting flights today the airline canceled more flights, even though a judge ordered Pilots to stop their work slow down. Airline has said it could take a few days to get back on schedule Minnesota state employees largest union says Governor Ventura has budget falls short in a number of areas, which affect the Public's health and safety Council six of the American Federation of state county and Municipal Employees says an additional four million dollars is needed over the biennium to add more prison guards more Highway Maintenance workers and to more fully staff driver's license testing facilities. But if enter a spokesman says not to expect any more money that if departments need more Frontline workers, they'll have to find the funding for it within the governor's proposed budget. At least one banking official says State Attorney General Mike hatches off base with his home owners Bill of Rights hatch is backing a bill that would require lenders to pay interest on the escrow accounts of homeowners abolish penalties for paying off mortgages early and make it easier to cancel private mortgage insurance. But the Executive Vice President of the Minnesota Mortgage Bankers Association says if the Attorney General wants to increase the number of minority homeowners, he needs to address the affordability of housing. Well temperatures are still dropping around the state data. There's a snow advisory in effect still for the southern third of Minnesota into this evening a wind advisory in parts of West Central Minnesota today overnight clearing in the west with light snow ending in the East overnight right now Duluth cloudy and 19 degrees Rochester 27 degrees in the Twin Cities cloudy now 24 degrees back to mid-day now with Gary eichten. Thank you Eric and we're talking this our about the profile of learning the Minnesota house is scheduled to vote this afternoon on whether the program should be scrapped. Modified what ought to happen with the profile of learning joining us this hour dfl state representative Gene Pulaski who teaches high school downtown Winona has been actively involved in this debate State education commissioner Christine. Jack's joins us by phone and John is also on the phone joining us from La Crescent. Good afternoon, (00:31:10) John good afternoon. Well first I'd like to say I've Had The Good Fortune of seeing a little demonstration of Representative pelowski is computer Based Teaching module and his office one day and it was absolutely dazzling. I have to say and if I had done something like that myself and felt I had to throw it out because of a profile I'd be pretty upset but I have to agree with the commissioner that really where we are now is not having to use the state packages but really challenging teachers to write their own and I've got a question for the commissioner. Do you see any chance of developing a manual that could be handed to teachers called? So you want to write a performance package? Because we've all been to the training workshops and we all have a kind of a fuzzy idea but to really internalize it and make it our own work to me something in writing is really going to be necessary. Do you see any chance of that happening? I think that would be a great idea. But I think it would have to be done as a guideline because I want us to clearly move from mandating and trying to control local curriculum to offering assistance and technical support and resource and referral so I would be open to us doing that as long as we were not further insulting teachers and not further trying to take control of local (00:32:25) curriculum, Claudia your question, (00:32:28) please hi. I'm calling from Saint Paul. I was a part of the legislative task force and the Pulaski referred to earlier and myself and somebody from Education Minnesota and a representative from the Minnesota School Board Association did not agree with the majority of you and we did support the establishment of Statewide standards and agreed that well the profiles Needs tweaking it would create more confusion to repeal it. But my question has to do with wholesale number 15. I'm taking a look at it and I'm not clear on the 3rd and 5th grade test section to my understanding according to host file 15 the third and fifth grade test could be selected by individual School boards, and that they could potentially select different nationally Norm tests. I'm curious as to how we would accurately compare school performance Statewide if different school boards are selecting different tests at the 3rd and 5th grade level. I'll hang up and listen (00:33:31) Gary one of the recommendations that came out of that advisory committee was a problem that we again saw with the communication with the Department. The department was requesting 20 million dollars to write new tests and in the discussion that we had in the advisory committee, there were 11 and there were three dissenters, but certainly a majority thought that those It's already existed and that they could be purchased on the shelf and used why did we need to expend 20 million more dollars to devise more tests for the graduation rule. I still find that to be a rather logical solution. Secondly, one of the things that we're hearing again today. Is it somehow house while 15 is an elimination I find house fall 15 a simplification of the graduation Rule and its implementation. It eliminates the profiles. That's for sure, but it does dramatically simplify this process and make it much more rational (00:34:23) representative pelowski. I thought you used the word abolishing yourself. You don't see it abolishing the (00:34:28) profile. Yes. I botching the profiles to be sure but it does keep the standards and it does move forward with saying that we support high standards, but it also focuses it on local control so that the communication problem that we've had with the Department won't be the predominant factor. I think we can communicate just as well with our school boards and with the teachers and parents and the Groups of ptas and our communities much better than we can with the (00:34:54) dcfl well and and representative pelowski. You've heard me say that as well. I agree there needs to be local control and it should not be my agency coming and looking into the classrooms or into the curriculum development specialist areas and saying what should be done and no, I hope that we get to a point at some point where we can let my department move forward to and not continue to live on the mistakes in the past as we correct them. (00:35:20) Is there any point of disagreement here representative pelowski? I mean other than the fact that I mean, it seems like everybody agrees that things are pretty messed up from the past and it seems like everybody thinks different approach focusing on the implementation and so on is called for Where's the point of disagreement? I think the the only real point of disagreement that we have right now are probably the profiles themself (00:35:47) and give me the learning standards or do you mean the (00:35:49) contacting about the profile package isn't how the profile packages work? I think that's probably the biggest stumbling block is teacher (00:35:55) guidelines. And and those are those are gone as far as we're concerned from the state. That's something that you as a high school teacher can just design yourself or go into your classroom and look at your curriculums and say hey, I already meet the content standards. I don't need to use (00:36:10) it commissioner and we agree on that and I think what you need then to communicate to every District in the state, every curriculum director is to say what you're teaching in the classroom now and how you're teaching it. If you align it to the standards that are in place you're out of here and that's the end of it or you align it to the testing or both and then we're done but that simple communication has not occurred up to this date and again commissioner. This isn't pointed at you. You are not the commissioner when this occurred but House file 15 is the result of the last I'd say eight years of the revolving door of the Department of Children family of learning and the governor's office and how its wanted to implement the graduation (00:36:51) Rule and Gary. I think that's your answer. I think the representative and I are not very far apart at all. It's just that this has taken a life of its own and it's become a political animal at this point. And now we're just going to have to see how we can find a solution even though we're all seemingly after the same goal (00:37:08) commissioner if the legislature said, okay, we want to give you folks a chance to kind of clean this up a little bit. How much time would you require? What would be an appropriate time frame for the legislature to say? Oh go ahead do what you what you think needs to be done here and then we'll take a second. Look at (00:37:26) this. Well, that's that's really a tough one. But I think that we could well first of all, I'd want a moratorium as I said earlier. So we're not hitting the transcripts. I don't want students to be punished while we're trying to figure out what we're doing. I think I think in a year we could get this taken. Care of and I do want to say that what passes the the house and what passes the Senate if something passes the Senate is are likely to be different and I expect when we go to conference committee. I expect that we are going to come up with something. That's great. I expect that. There is so much agreement on what has been wrong and what we want in Minnesota that ultimately the citizens and the students and the teachers and parents are going to be winners in (00:38:04) this Audrey your comment place. (00:38:06) Oh, well, this is Audrey from Minneapolis. And I just want to say thank you commissioner Jacks for including parents in that last statement. I am a parent of two Minneapolis public school children, and I've been very involved in the district in many many ways. And I guess if there's something we can get out of this entire experiment of the profiles and learning so far it's to look at what is the state's role in education and I do not think that it is the state's role to develop curriculum. And I think this is what I'm hearing commissioner, Jack say It's alarming to think that we have spent so much money on developing curriculum when there are other people to do that and we shouldn't be spending that much money from the state to do that because I believe it's not their role and then I feel as though our children are used as guinea pigs in some of these things and and the way these things come in sweeping reforms that are given, you know, this much time to be implemented and the staff really doesn't know what's going on communication is one of the biggest problems we have in this school district, and I think obviously it's one of the problems that the state is having with this whole profiles. I think that commissioner Jax is the they're putting forth an idea of simplifying into making guidelines and returning to local control make an awful lot of sense. And again, I think it's important that we walk away from this experiment realizing that it is not the state's role as legislature's role to develop curriculum Gary I'd like Say one thing about the students being guinea pigs. I just want to say that even though this had has been a new experience. I think one of the reasons teachers have been so frustrated and it's been so hard for them is because of the implementation problems and because they are working so hard to protect children and make Shield sure children learn and so although I think potential could have been there for children to be guinea pigs. I have the utmost faith that the individual teachers of this state made sure that that didn't happen and at the Integrity of their learning has been (00:40:10) found representative pelowski, you're in the classroom. Would you agree with that? Well, I'd agree with it. The problem in the frustration on the teachers point of view is that when problems were discovered teachers were told they didn't exist. You just keep doing it. You can't have a role in making changes. I think with the new commissioner and with the data that we received in the education committee on Tuesday that rolls got to be reversed and frankly that's been one of the problems over the last eight years. There was always a consultant from somewhere else that new better about Education then the people in Minnesota and that includes the parents the teachers the administrators the school board members. I hope we're beyond that and that we will the first question that will ask is if someone comes in and says here's a problem that exists in education. Nationally. The the next question I asked in committee is does it also exists in Minnesota? And if it doesn't then why are we implementing that solution to it? It is easy looking back and perhaps saying that things should have been done differently, but wasn't one of the reasons all of this came to pass was because there was a perception that the education establishment in Minnesota was so resistant to change and that there was a real need to get kids a better education and that just didn't seem to be any interest in making any changes Gary. I think that's a perception and the perception unfortunately was not the fact the facts are that there have been great strides. If you take a look at our test scores compared to the ACT test scores. For instance. We rank in one of the highest categories in the nation if you take a look at our higher education system are higher Education system which is the product to of our public education system is also one of the best in the nation the University of Minnesota and Minsk you the Curious thing about this development was we left higher education out of it. There was no attempt made by the Department of Children family learning to incorporate into this graduation rule. Our higher education institutions. That first attempt came only in the last two years and then only in fact at the conference committee in 1998, which I co-chaired with Senator Stumpf was the first time that we had president yudof Chancellor Anderson and commissioner wadl at the same table talking about education issues from birth through death. That's the first time it occurred that should be the role of the Department of Children family and learning to incorporate all of our Educational Systems to produce lifelong learning in this state and frankly that hasn't happened Deborah your comment, please. (00:42:33) Yes. Hello. I am a student at Hamlin in the post baccalaureate. English as student language program. I'm going to train to be a teacher to teach ESL students and we have been working with a performance packages there and I know that their really complicated. However, I do see some real Merit to them and I guess I am concerned my children now are out of high school just barely last year graduated out of high school, but I think the I think the positive thing that's happened here and why I would not want to throw the whole, you know, the baby out with the bathwater here is because I think that we're trying to get away from that Old teaching style of assigning and telling them then traditional testing. My understanding is that the performance packages are good. Not that you or at least (00:43:32) try is just just to clarify again. The performance packages are the ones these are the guidelines. Try it designed to help teachers actually teach this stuff (00:43:43) right and the in as far as I understand, they require teachers to teach in such a way that children need to demonstrate and produce a product that shows that they have learned it rather than just testing with paper and pencil temps. And I you know having watched my kids go through school. I think that there's some real real Merit to that and I think that especially with the high population of students of second language. I mean, they're learning English is the first language in our cities here. It's a it's really difficult for them to take paper and pencil test where they can demonstrate competency. In other ways. That might be much more beneficial commissioner. Well, she's right that is an additional way to assess a child's learning and a way to assess learning at higher levels and such as critical thinking but I think that there still were problems with that as representative pelowski pointed out the way we implemented this it was as if we were Not rekt boobs as if we were saying teachers had never done that before and there were many teachers who were doing that and I think that now we will have guidelines and for districts to implement it and make sure that if they want to to make sure that it's happening in all of the classrooms. We will give the learning areas the content areas and then they design the packages their curriculum or use what they've already been using if it works (00:45:04) assuming we maintain a program that includes most of these learning areas in the content areas and all of that are the better students adequately served by this program, or are they getting the short end of the stick? (00:45:20) I think the better students I will speak as a parent who I think I have better students my children are hardworking and very bright and my daughter when she came home and started telling me about her science experience experiment which by the way was the same one. I did 26 years ago. She could remember the boiling point and the density in the wait. So many different chemicals and compounds I was so impressed and I asked her would you have remembered these if you were just supposed to read them or look at a graph or look at a chart on an overhead and then just reported back on paper and pencil to your teacher and she said, oh no, I learned this because I experienced it and had to record it most teachers know that but this is the way we have to move. I'd like to think of it as a wave. Minnesota has already been on a wave going the right direction. We're just making sure that we continue to do that nudge and direct teachers who are having trouble with it or don't understand that but certainly reward teachers and and Pat them on the back the ones who have been doing it because a lot of great teachers have been doing this (00:46:23) represent Applause key best students being served by this as well as kind of the broad middle Gary. One of the unfortunate outcomes of the debate was the realization that early on AP International Baccalaureate. I teach one of the AP classes that would on a senior high had a Each problem with the profiles of learning in the graduation rule. We were being forced to teach it the way they had instructed us to teach it and we backed off and said you can't do it this way. We have a test at the end. This is a programmed course the course has all of these elements but we have to go down this line to teach it. If you force us into this, we will begin to abandon the AP and international Baccalaureate and actually some schools did start saying we won't offer those courses if we have to do the packages. So we had a Statewide push and a struggle with the Department a recognition that you're going to have to back off this method in order to let the AP and international Baccalaureate stand now, I think we've come to resolution on it, but it took almost a year and we're still not quite sure that these courses can stand given this system of (00:47:25) micromanagement area. I would I would say that we should strongly consider waiving out of the profile or any other high standard package that comes out of this waving AP and IB students out of it. They're already doing something rigorous there already. IB students are doing an international curriculum involving many other countries and I think we should consider letting them stay on the track that they're (00:47:48) on let's get at least one more caller on here before we wrap up Jim. (00:47:52) Yes. I was on a originally a curriculum advisory committee. And then and then it was changed to graduation of standards. And and the whole time I was sitting there in these meetings. I was wondering what was so wrong with the established education system that we had and and then through the meetings we discovered that it was a students comprehension of a particular subject matter. So I was wondering why didn't they just address those particular issues instead of basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater and Reinventing the wheel here, they spent millions of dollars in this state trying to reinvent an education system. When I think they could have taken what we had and made some necessary changes to that at a much lower price (00:48:31) Jam before you hang up aren't you concerned though about all the reports that we kept hearing that that the kids just weren't getting as good an education as They needed that too many kids were falling through the cracks. You have kept hearing from business people saying gosh the graduates just can't do the work blah blah blah. (00:48:48) Well, that's one of the concerns that we had these profiles of learning. Our community is one of the tests school districts out here and some of the people on the very bored that are supposed to try and simplify this and bring about some changes to the education system. We're worried about some students falling through the cracks while these teachers had to comply with these huge record keeping requirements for the profile and teachers in our own School District were against this but they didn't voice their own opinions because they're afraid of losing their jobs. Our school district was like I said a pilot site and we were getting grant money to pursue this and they didn't dare speak up even though they really didn't appreciate it. And it's my understanding that representative Seifert basically brought some of this legislation forward because teaches in his own District were dissatisfied with the profile of learning also, M comment commissioner. Well, I think one of your collars kind of answered that brilliantly I think that the record-keeping issue is something that we want to address. Yeah, I guess I don't really know how to respond any more than I have on that. You know, (00:49:59) we need did we need to launch this big change after all in (00:50:03) retrospect? Well, I think that I think we did I think is one of your collars pointed out the what I needed in my education in the 60s and what my daughter needed my three daughters need for education is not the same you cannot there's too much knowledge now to just memorize everything the half-life of knowledge is decreasing continuously and I think that we need to make sure that we have students who can do the critical thinking around the core knowledge that of course, they must have but they have to be able to integrate and synthesize knowledge. They have to be able to apply it they have to relate it from one discipline to another discipline and this prepares. Them for college and prepares them for life in a global economy with a lot of technology and this provides that ability to all students not just students who might be getting that at home (00:50:50) representative pelowski. Well Gary so far. The only thing the graduation rule is guaranteed is that we have produced an incredible amount of paper it down to the individual classroom student level so much paper that it would be like the end of the Indiana Jones movie where they bring that crate in and we have crates of paper being produced that are going to go to some big Warehouse Mark DC FL and no one is going to read it or we've said under the guise of what we call rigor. We now have rigor mortis and we've got house file 15 trying to resolve which should have been resolved with a department working with the various stakeholders from the parents to the teachers to the administrators. So I hope house file 15 has also done something good and that is it has Illustrated that the communication has been so bad that the Legislature now must respond and clean this thing up and there's a conference committee. Ultimately that's going to decide this commissioner. (00:51:46) You think something comes out of the Senate if a bill comes out of the Senate there will be a conference committee on it. And do we do we (00:51:54) think finally we've only got about 30 seconds left that some semblance of the profile Will Survive or (00:52:01) what I can say is if we begin to look forward and stop looking at the past and beating each other up over what has what mistakes were done in the past but instead start talking about what all of our goals are and what we want for the children and how to get there. I'm convinced that the Senators and the legislative the house members Democrats Republicans alike. I think we can all come up with something that will please the governor and ultimately be the best thing for students parents and teachers (00:52:27) gray representative 10 seconds. Well Gary when the legislative session is over, I'm the only person in this conversation is going to go back in and teach students and I'm going to do the best job I can and I hope that the dcfl and the legislature gives Tools to do it. Thanks so much for joining us both of you. Really? Appreciate it. Thank you State education commissioner Christine Jack state representative Gene policinski joining us this hour to talk about the profiles of learning programming. I Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the Pillsbury company Foundation caring for the community by giving kids a loving lift Gary eichten here. Thanks so much for tuning in. Hope you can join us tomorrow for Midday, February 12th through the 14th is the Twin Cities food and wine experience at the Minneapolis Convention Center call early for discount on tickets and NPR members get an additional discount for tickets call 6123715857. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a cloudy Sky 24 degrees at Canada wfm 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul snow advisory in effect for the Twin Cities this afternoon and tonight we can look for snow through the afternoon into the evening. It's turning colder progressively colder temperatures will be dropping two to four inches of snow by this evening, then partly cloudy with flurries tomorrow.