With news from Minnesota Public Radio on Mike Mulcahy of Court decision in Washington could have an impact in the ongoing debate over nuclear waste storage at n ESPYs Prairie Island plant the US Supreme Court today, let stand in earlier appeals court decision which side the federal government does not have to accept nuclear waste before it has a long-term storage site for it, even though a 1982 federal law set of 1998 deadline for the energy Department to take the nuclear waste the Court's decision today also allows utilities and states to continue suing the federal government for monetary damages for not meeting the deadlines. The energy Department says it doesn't have to accept nuclear waste until it's storage facility is done which won't be until at least the year 2010 the Iron Range resources and Rehabilitation board plans to bring 500 high tech jobs in northeastern Minnesota in the next 2 years plans to create for Technology Centers in the area and to offer startup companies incentives including Venture Capital to get them to locate their I Triple R Beacon.Jim Gustafson says the Iron Range has to break away from its traditional Industries in order to create more jobs. The premise is that both are attacking Light Industry and our wood fiber Industries are under attack of from a lot many many sources and reasons including the marketplace and political and otherwise and that it's very important. We move now to a New Economic Paradigm on Northeastern Minnesota Gustafson says the agency will put up $400,000 to get the Technology Centers off the ground Sky should clear off from west to east of the day goes on today. It'll be a little cooler than I record-breaking weather yesterday, but still not bad I should range from the lower thirties to the upper forties. It's cloudy around the region now with temperatures in the 30s. That's news. I'm Mike Mulcahy. Thank you Mike 6 minutes now past 11. Today's programming is made possible in the park by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include G&K Services at Premier provider of quality uniform program.Related services and Department 56 marketers of giftware and fine collectibles. Good morning, and welcome to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten glad you could join us State Finance officials will be releasing their latest Revenue projections this week. And once again, the experts are expected to predict the state will be Awash in money. The exact amount is not knowing and it is worth noting that these are only projections but it is thought that the state will be collecting about 2 billion dollars more than it needs projection would cover the two-year. That begins next July and runs through June of 2001. Now these past two years the state has found itself with over four billion dollars in extra money. Some of which was returned to taxpayers last spring when they file their income tax forms more which will be return next spring when we file our income tax forms, but what to do about these future surpluses for that matter, will there actually be a future Surplus or will the economy turn sour should the state permanently reduce or increase the amount that it's Collecting should the state use some of the extra money that it collects to increase overall State spending. Those are just some of the big picture questions that state officials will have to wrestle with over the next few years and joining us today are two of the legislators who will help answer those questions Republican state representative. Ron Abrams in Minnetonka new chair of the Minnesota house taxes committee. He's here in our studios in St. Paul and a joining us in a little while from our studios in Rochester will be Republican state representative Dave Bishop the new chair of the Minnesota house Ways and Means Committee, and of course, we also invite you to join our conversation as well or talking state taxes and state spending this our give us a call to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828. Thanks for joining us today very much. Appreciate the invitation. First of all. As far as you know Willis new estimate actually project another Surplus from everything. I hear a very large number is expected later this week. I've heard people say anywhere from one and a half billion two and a half billion dollars, but did it will be a large number now, does that include the tobacco money that's coming in or is that over and above yet? The the tobacco money we collect includes the tobacco money. But even more important is that there was six hundred million dollars of additional spending if you will in the 1998 session 400 million dollars for cash for running into a million dollars into an income tax Reserve. So they projections do not include that six hundred million dollars from what I understand representative Bishop. Thanks for joining us this morning. Be there with us. Okay. Well, we'll poke around here. Let's see as the bear with us here a moment as we get to get representative. Bishop hello representative Bishop Now I'm going to have to work on that a little bit. Okay, why is it that representative Abrams? Why is it that we're collecting so much more money than That anybody expects we need. Well, the state has a nonpartisan econometrics firm haidri out of Boston, which basically does the projections together with the state. Council economic advisers and they have been on the low side of economic growth. If you got notice last week 3rd quarter GDP increased it roughly 3.9% I believe that the projection upon which the March forecast was base was an approximately 2.6% So when you have more economic activity, you're going to generate more tax revenue additionally on the spending side because I'm more people are able to find working in a full employment economy. Some of the spending programs will spend less money than he had two previously been indicated. The most of the Surplus has been generated in the tax. I however this projection is going to look quite a ways into the future who could be at all sure that the economy will be percolating. Along as well as it has that far into the future. You know, that's one reason that at least I'm thankful that we do use relatively conservative numbers on the way in I was first elected in 1988 and I recall what happens on the other side when you use too Rosy a projection and I think that being a little bit on the conservative side together with a fairly large reserves, which state has built up means that we will have the ability to have a fairly significant to decrease in state taxes and next session of legislature. Why you think there will be room then for a permanent tax cut as opposed just sending back money as it comes in. Absolutely. I believe that after we have I built up reserves. We have increased spending on programs to levels where I think that the most people would think that that we are a full-service State and I would hope that there any projected Surplus at least the very large bulk of it would be returned to taxpayers either in the form of a one-time rebate or more importantly in in the in the form of permanent tax cuts on Abrams and a chair or the Minnesota house taxes committee and if we can get all the connections to all the wires put together will also be talking with Republican state representative Dave Bishop. He joins us from our studios in Rochester. He is the new chair of Minnesota house Ways and Means Committee trying to get a reading on what Republicans hope to do with. Taxes and what programs they'd like to spend some money on and if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002 to 76000 Southside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828. First caller is from Monticello, Kevin. Thanks for joining us. Yeah. I just want to say I'm very excited to hear that Congressman bring up the permanent tax cut out here in the real world. We have a surplus we like to call it savings and I just don't think the state need to spend anymore. Call Kevin I I agree with you the state legislature together with the governor last two years increase State spending by roughly 16% And that's at a time and which inflation has been between one and a half into percent. I I believe that we have done an awful lot on these spending side and not enough on the tax-cutting side. And it's true that we have enacted some small tax cuts together with the rebates. How about the my goal is to work to get Minnesota out of the top 10 and all tax categories yet at the same time. You keep hearing about all these unmet needs in the state of Minnesota just in terms of Education. We spent a lot of money on education, but the governor elect in his lieutenant governor, elect keep talking a lot about class size reduction. That's quite expensive many of the school district say we don't we could don't even have money to buy papers and pencils for the students to say nothing of housing problems and childcare this-that-and-the-other-thing. Do you think we're spending enough money? Is it just that we're not spending it on the right things. Are we spending too much? What's your reading on me? My reading is is that we haven't priorite got a very good job of prioritizing spending the last two to four years as I mentioned earlier. We had a 16% increase in in your right there. There was some school districts Gary that did fabulously well under the 1997 education bill in the end. It's all very large increases and then there are other school districts that barely saw in an inflationary increase and and this is one of a number of years in a row in which that skirt, so, I would hope that we would first luck with the end to do Sabri prioritizing and take those monies indirect causes that I may have been on Matt and and I hopefully will have enough left over in order to have a very large tax cut this mixture representative Dave Bishop join just now for my Rochester Studio. Good morning representative. Good morning, Gary. Thanks for Running has so sorry about the delay. We are talking here about State spending in the rest up. Do you think that we keep hearing about on the one hand that we're spending all this money state government spending a lot of money on the other hand. We keep hearing about all these unmet needs. Do you think we're spending about the right amount to much do we need to increase State spending? What's your reading in the big picture Gary every two years. We have a very detailed committee structure that looks at spending on all fronts. I think that they're always will be people that need more spending. I think I've I've heard a number. I'm just since the session ended their very clear semi-clear. I have in my own home Community. I've been pushing the county here to spend more money for a probation officers for sex offenders because of probation. Desert habitats have twice as many of 70 on a caseload for sex offenders and they shouldn't have any more tips at 35. I see that as a need for additional spending either on a direct basis by the county or on a state basis with Community Corrections what you're asking me on a general statement. I really believe that we have are in Minnesota are doing a good job. Maybe not as scarce as good in all respects as we can do in the next session, but we're doing quite well, we'll keep in mind to the people need to know that something on the order of 75% of all the states spending is really money that is collected by the state on a general basis and distributed back to the local governments in government Aid and a schools give out. What is it five and a half billion to 6 billion dollars run that we gived to K-12 spending. Someone or something along those lines day, but you know, I I don't view it as giving I view it as kind of a function of government in the end it will sure I just talked about that. That's the way it's allocated fanatic not any of the gift that we can say. Thank you for let me tell you Gary that when I first came to the legislature is the foundation Aid which is the per-pupil unit was $750. Now it's over 3500 for the state Foundation Aid know that's almost five times in in 16 years and yet educator said they don't have nearly enough money to work with then you keep hearing complaints the kids are going without pencils and papers of the teachers have to buy those supplies themselves. What's that all about? Well, you know also went in 1983 some my believe. The number was about sixty-eight cents of every dollar that was spent by local school districts was spent for for salaries and the other 32 That's was spent for supplies and and buildings and structures. Now. It's substantially higher proportion of the state of the the public dollar to the school's is spent for salaries. So salary Civics have gone up faster in keeping up with inflation or whatever then Supply so those are kind of decisions that have to be made I think in committee thoroughly looking at it no question, but what the top priority in the state as far as I'm concerned is Public Safety the second highest priority is public education and that's our are my agenda anyway, and I think it's our public agenda for the whole legislature. We're talking this hour with state representatives Des bishop and Ron Abrams. They hold to key positions in the Minnesota house course Republicans took control of the house in the November elections, and they're going to be running things in the Minnesota house these next couple of years and we thought it would be great today to get an idea of what their priorities are if you'd like to join us. Conversation give us a call 227-6020 area number to 276 thousand. I'll try the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6102 for 22828 taxes and spending usually Republicans are not identified as taxpayers and Spenders, but that's your job now. So I'll go ahead please make a 94 Jetta have campaign that you're a guy run around your District saying you're fired Shana really fail the tachs test police property tax reform the whole thing. And we allow the thought that was really terrible virus or want to ask you about your tax committee chairman sort of a recovery tax rinse Pandora. How's it feel looking at it from that position to be, you know, when the position of a really controlling taxes and reflecting upon that Well, you don't look at looking back in 94. I got 72% of the vote. So I think that my constituents us all through the lies that were told but you know, what what's more important is he is looking forward and I believe that the Republican majority working in the house working together with the governor election tour and his administration will working with the Senate dfl. Majority will be able to be able to enact a permanent tax cut that will make Minnesotan Sprout terms of a permanent cut income sales property tax with what would be your priority. I really think it's a it's a caucus priority to be looking at the income tax. We we have the second highest per capita income tax in the country. And I think that there will be a number of proposals that will come forward from all sorts of quarters to Permanently reduce income tax be at through elimination of the marriage penalty through broadening of brackets through decreases of Rights. And you know, they were there will not be a lack of ideas in that area a secondly I think that the property tax reform effort in my judgment is only part way there and I think that if we do have the large enough Surplus, I'd like to revisit property tax reform in the 1999 session enact what's been been called around the capital of Space 3 property tax reform. But again, we want to make sure that we do it in such a way that we protect homeowners. We protect Farmers on the internet. Nobody gets hurt by any of the reform between act in the property tax area. How do you see a House Republicans working with the dfl control State Senate and now the new Reform Party governor? You think that's all going to work out real sweat really a lot of problems? Gary I think that the Republicans in the house the Democrats in the Senate and Governor Ventura are all very keenly attuned to the public will which was perhaps surprisingly expressed this last election, but it's clearly stated that we want less less spending by government on things that are perceived to be not very not very high priorities that we want taxes that we I think the public genuinely is is fired up on this business of reducing the taxes that are producing surpluses. It makes no sense to me and I think it doesn't make any sense to the Governor Ventura to accumulate a surplus by taxing more money than is the government is needed if you need and then try to figure out how to get it back. I think that is one of the most egregious and and Garrett. But how do you know how much you're going to need two years from now? Well, that is always a problem Gary and I think what we have to do is just be a little bit conservative about it. I think we have to start and end to take a look like know we're going to have quite a bit and I already have done some research on my own with the House fiscal staff. And one of the things that I'm excited about is it in this particular change of it of change over in policy people lie of the the person who do the voting in the house. We are going to retain most if not all of the fiscal analyst who aren't supposed to be non-partisan. They have been by non-partisan for the last couple years. Anyway, maybe several and we are going to keep them. I haven't had had two other exciting situation for me of not only being a pointed to this position by the speaker designate but also can meet meeting with Bill marks the chief fiscal analyst for the last Several years and at the one who advises the Ways and Means Committee he's going to carry on and I'm I'm very pleased. He's already giving me numbers that are looking forward into the 2000 and 2001 by years of the next biennium. I think we're going to get along fine with the governor's office. I've had a couple of conversations with people that are on his transition team Wendy Western Burgers, very well-regarded and known to be not a very knowledgeable. He's the one that she's the one that he's designated and I expect a lot of success. I think the people will be pleasantly surprised to see how little partisanship will get involved. Keep in mind Gary that I was there in 1985 and 86 when we negotiated with this video FL send it the last time we were around so it isn't totally knew but we need key people in the fiscal analyst spots so that our new leaders of our committees can make policy decisions based on a Put information. I think that's the most exciting part going forward right now in your mind that in light of the interest in trying to everybody wants to get a long form some kind of a consensus avoid all the bickering and so on. Is there any concern in your mind that in the process? A lot of legitimate policy differences will just get paper over. I don't think there's going to be much of a chance of that in the tax committee Gary that you can you can have a fair process but still have very sharp differences of opinion and that is at least a hobbit ask when he's operated during the eight years that I've served on that committee. I intend to try to retain some of the traditions of the tax committee and I would suspect that the conference committee will be very interesting. I was on a conference committee in 1997 worked with the senator Johnson and let's just say Doug and I have some rather different. Ways of viewing the world but do you know at the end of the day we will be able to reach agreement. So we have to be able to respect each other. We have to be able to articulate the differences. I would suspect that the house tax bill in the Senate tax bill be very different. But the one message that I've gotten over the years is that you're you're elected to will work with the other people who are elected and you can't get anything done by going in your corner and sulking and saying it's either my way or no way. You got to find Common Ground Bishop you mentioned the one of the message is clear messages coming out of the election was that people would just as soon the government stick to things that it's supposed to be involved with and maybe get out of areas that it shouldn't be involved with governor elect to Ventura suggested. For example, that maybe Healthcare is an area that the state should back off from Child Care subsidies. Do you see those two areas as being a targets for the Republicans? I wish I could answer that question with some more specific specificity Gary. I I've had my orientation to Public Safety. I've been on finance or Appropriations and on Judiciary Inferno and finance generally left in the healthcare up to other others. And so I think that that that's one area we had where we have to be a little sensitive. I think we were not as sensitive to him in the 1986 as we should have been and I think the perception was that we were a little too hard-hearted at that time on on Mondays that were needed by people who are disadvantaged in her welfare cases, for example, but I can't say I don't I I will really like the the process we go through. I want the general public to become more Civic only interested in and I watch welcome program such as yours, I'd I think we're politically lazy and their work. Romola general public is tending toward almost apathy where they just say it or pox on both houses and they don't really look at the hard work that's done by both parties and up and it isn't that much partisanship except on taxes. I suppose I think we're going to do fine. And I think we're good. I just hope the Publix going to look at it Gary. I like the buffet before I get done here. I'd like to alert you and a public to some things that I see that our problems coming at us and then for the state and for welfare reform my committee ways and means is that sounds like a good idea. Can I tell you those three thing or I think there's three things I see us come and going forward into our session with him a multi billion-dollar Surplus to deal with it was going to be something on the order of two billion dollars that are I think we will be looking at where over a billion now when once we take into account the tobacco money that's going to have to be that way. Somehow now what about that? Certainly some of it should be allocated for a tax cut and they tax reductions and something balanced and fair and I like the remarks that I just heard from my colleagues gave him but I'm worried about a recession. I think that we're due for one in. I think the governor Carlson was was justifiably conservative on last session. We were some of us trying to get him to be more of a tax cutter and but he was worried about recession. So am I and I think we have to wait and watch for the numbers that are coming out from the hour and I on on Friday. That's number one concern the number to concern. I have four ways and means and spending is Y2K. I don't think that the school districts and scanned and are there spending six billion dollars of public funds from the state and other monies from their lot property taxes. I think they have to be sure that they're not Going to get caught by surprise. I think local governments are in the same situation and 1/3. So Y2K, I think we're going to need a special attention to during the next recession the next session and the boys and Means Committee of are some other one may be sick commission with a senator's needs to take a look at it. It's third thing I think is the federal budget. I believe that we're going to see Fudd more budget cuts from the federal budget. They will have impacts on the state and we will be counting on moneys from the federal government and several several programs that word being administered when the FED Cuts back. What are we going to do? Those are the three big things that I'm worried about a representative of joining us for Mauro studios in Rochester state representative. Ron Abrams was here in our studios in St. Paul MN Abrams the new head of the tax Committee in the Minnesota House Representatives Bishop the new head of the house Ways and Means Committee talking. What about taxes and spending any upcoming legislative session if you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 will get to some more colors than just a second when this is done what you will basically she is just an open re-established Prairie here. But what happened on this Prairie of Rusty brown grass and scrub trees made history about fifty soldiers camped here in 1862. We're surrounded and attacked by roughly 200 Dakota. The fight went on for a day-and-a-half on Mondays All Things Considered will hear how they're working to restore the Birch Coulee Battlefield of the Dakota conflict All Things Considered weekdays at 3, by the way over the noon hour today second hour of our mid-day program. We're going to hear from Gail Sheehy. She's the author of course passages number of other books while her latest book talks about Aging men aging and are some of the problems you need to mail soon as they get older in our society will hear from her over the noon hour today weather forecast clearing conditions are forecast for the state gradual clearing with the cooler temperatures today than what we had yesterday, but that's hardly a surprise and it's still very mild really nice today low thirties in the Northwest upper 40s in the southwest and then it supposed to warm up again. Tomorrow Twin Cities are clearing Skies what later this afternoon with a high temperature around 48°, but now it's cloudy and it's 38° in the Twin City metropolitan area were talking this our taxes and spending two key members of the Minnesota house. Then coming house Republican majority have joined us. Ron Abrams who is head of the tax committee Dave Bishop who is head of the house Ways and Means Committee. And again, if you have a question or comment for the representatives, give us a call. 227-6002 276 thousand outside. Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 Chris your question, please. vapormax that I have in our district here in Crookston if taxes are cut and I'm not saying that's not a good idea but Where is that money going to come from when we have negotiations in our school district and we need to buy things in our school district to take care of our children. That's a big concern here. And and I think it's kind of unfair that the legislature hold individual districts responsible for trying to find extra money. When the the money is taken away from the district. Do you have any answers right? I don't think any money is going to be taken away from any school district Brewing tours to earlier was a property tax reform and what we have done in the legislature any bipartisan bicameral basis is a we have a cut the property taxes primarily for commercial industrial apartment owners in at the same time whole property homeowners and Farmers Pharmacy in that process. I would see that going forward. I asked to money that your school district would get that would be in the Omnibus K through 12. And you know, I would hope that the one of the things that that committee will look at is simplifying the formula so that local school district have a little bit more control over their finances. I know that we had an oversight committee two years ago on the tax money and you can't even put the entire a basic edge of Education formula on one page 456 different items that make up that formula. So, you know, how can you expect voters to really be able to connect with the there school districts in their state representatives and their States senators when we have made things so complicated that not even experts in the field really understand it long-term. What if I could add add something to that lady's question answer the lady's question. This is represent Bishop. One of the things that I offered in the past session that was supported broadly by the Minnesota Chamber of Commerce was an increase in state aid level a percentage of the local budgets that would be paid out basically out of income tax lot of thought of total state. Revenues, but would be a reduction in the requirement of the local property tax base and a weak move to a higher level of of State support for public education. And I think that's the one you it isn't just taxes ma'am. It's also how the how are the dollars produced to run the schools and at what levels send it mean to maintain the the an increasing level of public education funding you don't have to increase taxes. Maybe you have to change the percentages and shipped more money to a public education and less for local property taxes last couple of years. The state has provided more money to local school districts as a consequence. They've not had tax property tax. Haven't had to raise a property taxes much can the state of four that long-term or can we expect the homeowners tax to start going back up to replace? Add additional state aid. Well, I would hope that the state would need its constitutional obligation to fund public education and it is in our constitution of the that occur. The state does set the basic education Levy throughout the state and the four years to legislators. Try to hide behind the fact that it's the school district of actually vote for the levy, but if they don't vote for the Levee, they don't get them. They don't get that. They stated that follow. So in fact, the basic education Levy is he is a state the property tax and what I would like to see he is a continuation of what's occurred over the last at two or three years, which is the state taking more of the cost of basic K through 12 education estate responsibilities. We are now opt about 69 or 70 per-cent of the basic cost of Education being paid for by the state during the mid-90s. We were we were down to about sixty 61% and I had like to try to push that Number of past 70% in closing on 75% I think that sounds like a good percentage to you seventy 75% or would you like to think I'm fully supportive about that but moving in that direction and I but I cannot say that it isn't going to be my opinion. It's going to be a collective opinion of the Committees that are involved and I don't even think that it'll be a partisan opinion either. I think it's going to be broadly supported by both the governor's positions. I mean Governor's special lieutenant governor special expert on that subject. So I fully expect Governor Ventura and the and the Senate to being in a cordon addressing that issue along the lines of Representative Abrams comments back to the phone said David your question, please Toriel election. There was a great deal of interest in special interest money. If they could outline where they receive funds over the past campaign or past year what special interest groups of wanted their campaigns and operations. And then the second one would be how each of them voted on the stadium issue in the most recent legislative session. If I'm not mistaken a representative Abrams voted for the stadium. He was one of the few Republicans and obviously very small minority that voted for that and I wonder what their position is on a publicly-funded stadium and I'll hang up and listen. Okay. Let's see. Let's start with the representative of Abraham's any large sources of of money that you got during your campaign. Where'd you get your money from? Weather the largest amount of money I got was from public financing and receive over $9,000 from public financing. Most of my most of my contributions are in $100 and less amounts. I think I received about the $8,000 in hundred-dollar unless increments in the end the rest are from various and Sundry political action committees in the mail in a hundred $250 increments on the stadium other forty-seven members of the House who voted for the stadium 26 of those were Republicans 26 out of I believe at the time that we voted to 64 members of the caucus voted for it was a user fee based a proposal and I frankly I think that the people of the Minnesota have spoken on Stadium issue and I I just don't see it be emerging in the 1999 or 2000 session. Campaign money from well, I also got Public Funding and that means that I limited my spending and limited how much I could take from any source to my recollection. The only I think the most the largest, largest contribution I got was believe $250 and I fuzzy about where that came from, but it might have been from either Realtors or from Medical Association or the lawyers groups. I I'm not I'm I don't keep track of it where I was from and so I'm a little fuzzy on the answer to the question. I asked both of you this question perfectly fair question and Main are you getting money? And are you any of your votes attributable to any money that you get and I think it works the other way. Go ahead Gary. I should we move entirely too publicly financed to system. You do here at the charge that that campaigns are basically bought sold in its an auction. And we move toward a total public subsidy of some sort or or severely limit the size of contributions that people can make it so that there's no appearance of impropriety any farther in that direction you remove very solidly against the idea of people being able to express themselves and and and support the people they want to there's a freedom of action that's involved. I think the Minnesota's got a model for the country. I know it is because the federal government's been trying and trying to use our our method of encouraging candidates to take Public Funding and buy The very active accepting it they commit and they impose limits on themselves on how much you can accept from any particular Source how much you have to report everything ever ever you every dollar that is contributed to it up. The candidate gets reported. I have to go an hour before I can get my election certificate has been and start being elected to be sworn in before I do that. I have to go and sign an oath at the auditors office that I have complied with all of the limits on the spending and I think that's fine. I like our system. I think it's been looked at by many states and by the federal government as a way to move in that direction move the direction of controlled spending a senator McCain from Arizona has been trying to put it into affect whether the Democrats were in charge or the Republicans in charge of the Congress. I think it works fine. Let me say that as far as Funding for a stadium is concerned. I think that's another one of those issues that has been made it very clear with the election of Governor Ventura. I think he's made it his position very clear on it. I don't even looked at the stadium Public Safety my issue as one that could not have public dollars in terms of income tax dollars or property tax dollars support. It had to be supported by Revenue dollars that are for people that would be using a user fees much like the Target Center. I don't feel people hear people objecting to the to the subsidy that was the state provided for the Target Center because it was in the subsidy was very much balance by the additional tax revenues data collected. I don't think the stadium issues going to be much of an issue in the in the next session or two because of The general Public's feeling on it the way that Stadium shook out was terrible. I had a conversation with one of the lobbyists and I said, you're just you're already dead. Why don't you lie down? Representative Abrams know what you think about the way we pay for elections. Do we need some changes in that area? Well, I I tend to be a strong defender of the First Amendment and I believe that what we have done in Minnesota through these so-called voluntary limitations is egregious offense against the first amendment. I need to point no further than the race for attorney general where you had a $350,000 limit in order to campaign throughout the entire state of Minnesota. I think that that amount is is is clearly not sufficient and I would also say that the amount for governor at the roughly two million dollars. I was insufficient for the candidates to be able to campaign what you do when you have limitations on how much one can spend on elections is that you in fact and power special interest on a through independent expenditure and through soft money in the like in order to get more involved in the process, you know, frankly when you when you have a house of one-party a senate of another Party in the governor of a third-party. You aren't going to basically be able to make very many changes to the current system. But I think that the Supreme Court has been a fairly vigorous in defending First Amendment rights. They have equated Inn in some instances ability to contribute to the ability to speak and I'll count me as a defender of the First Amendment Tom your question place or request. I'd like to your two guests to Define what they mean by a permanent tax cuts color me cynical, but I don't understand how any politician of any color can compromise anything that's permanent in this world. And so I kind of look at The phrase went when the pot when politicians use it as an attempt to kind of pull the wool over our eyes and maybe you could ask future guests to because it's a loose phrase. I think we toss that around a little bit more than we should a very good point because the legislature meets every year and what the 1999 legislature does the 2000 or 2001 legislature doesn't do I think that in the vernacular around the capitol the bulk of the tax relief over the last two years has been in the in the form of a one-time rebate and I think that what most people refer to as a permanent. Tax cut is too instead of going along the rebate route. I permanently cut either the tax rates are the tax brackets or a white and brackets are in Access special creditor or whatever, but the listener is right what the 1999 legislature can do the 2001 legislature can end do Hopefully we will have the foresight to have a good information as to Future physical needs of the state of Minnesota so that when the legislature does enact a tax cut, they won't have to go back in 2001 and undo some of that. I simply because mistakes were made in in in projections. So I think that's what's meant by permanent tax reduction Jim your question tonight to touch to that. Okay, bring the distinction. It has to be made between a temporary tax increase and a permanent tax cut. We have had people told that our sales tax or half a cent was only going to be temporary. Well, it hasn't been temporary has been bigger. The temporary tax increase has turned out to be permanent. I think it's a question of intentions the more than then capability of Representatives, right? We we could we don't buy in future legislators. But we do do but bind our own intentions and Our intention is to do make a change that's going to stick for a while and not just be a flash in the pan for an election. Gym me a question. Good morning. I'd like to make a short, and then which will result in a question and do very little to help the citizens understand that the place of Texas in the civilized society you I think it was Jefferson or somebody who said that taxes are the price we pay for civilization and we can look at around the world. Are you in around United States to see where there's a very obvious relationship between Texas and quality of life. Look if we want to be a high-quality state is this is the price we must pay for it to help that help the citizens understand the role of Texas in our society rather than demagoguing the issue and Playing on on a fear of over-taxation. So it's kind of risky for politicians to to say look a citizen's life is related to taxes in and it's your responsibility in your duty to pay taxes much easier for them to say taxes are too high and feel like me ELCA text and I'll do this why don't politicians do their Duty and help us understand this one of the repercussions of this is so we treat you to turn around then you say you have school districts want extra money to run their schools and was passed in excess Levi referendum. So after you demonize Texas and after you've caught demagogue distant, then we have to go back to the public and say look, we need some more money to run our schools. Would you please pass INXS Levi referendum and I think you're being unfair and I and I don't think you're fulfilling your responsibility as Educators to help the citizenry for taxes in the right place, and I'd like to hear your comments, please. Okay wants to go first Abrams tax chair competitive National and international global economy. And in order for us to succeed long-term that we have to have an economic structure in place in the state that makes sense. And I don't view myself as a demonizer of taxes, but I can only report to you that on the income tax side. We we ranked second in the country in per capita income taxes, and I don't think some quality of life for quite there. I think that that there's some things that government want to do and we ought to do the very very well and I think that Dave Bishop earlier alluded to them in the in the area of the education K through 12, and in higher education is is is a big priority for me and others to make sure that when Grandma and Grandpa get sick and I don't have assets that there's Safety-net available for them to make sure that there is a good a public safety so that if you do commit a crime you will be caught and you will be punished in OB place to put you if you're caught and I think we lost to do those Essentials of government. Well, and I have no problem going to my constituents are the people in Minnesota and say that there is a cost in order to have these high-quality Services. I think that were things break down is a lot of the other things that state government gets involved with him, you know, one thing produced a list literally from A to Z that becomes pork barrel from one District to another District based upon the seniority and the guile of the local state representative in the local state senator and whatever Statewide politics are at play in the governor's office. So I guess for myself. I'm willing to stand up and say yes, whatever there is. Hope there is a price to have quality education. There is a price to have Quality Healthcare in public safety, but I don't think that the price is no Sara Lee wood minnesotans currently are paying jobs in Bishop. Would you agree with that? We have a very high quality of life here in Minnesota. We are admired for that quality. And even my own Community is often regarded as among the tops in the country for its quality of life and certainly the revenue that we approved for ourselves. And we at least that we pay and we pay our taxes all of us with a very high percentage of honesty and integrity and collections are remarkable. I'm I'm very proud of the Minnesota system. And I think that the Republicans have been elected to the majority in the house not to destroy it or tear it down or not to take money away from anything that's needed such as education. Is it as I said before the next to public safety, I consider public education the highest priority we will be taxing. We will be supplying the funds that are needed there probably will. Can just disagreements about how what level of need or is but those disagreements should be for surfaced in our committees. And because I think people will genuinely look listen the I don't feel myself in a demagogue I voted for a lot of tax bills. I've tried to raise taxes on their number of occasions and and different kinds of the taxes and taxes are are are part of the the necessity of of our life out of time here, but just a quick comment represent a bishop you raise the issue of this debacle money. We talked a little bit to represent the Abrams about that altogether 6.1 billion coming to the state of in Chile. Will that mostly go to healthcare programs tax relief General Revenue. What's quick comment from each of you that's going to be the argument that with those. Those those claims will be the argument and I think Gary the Where this is going to be Collective decision-making. I don't expect my role to be something that is going to be and exclusionary or my opinion. I think the speaker remembers going to do it. He's got he wants it that way to representative aprons. I would point out that the money was that the legal theory behind the damages was at Minnesota taxpayers overpaid. I think that there will be a component of tax relief kind of tobacco money. Thanks so much for joining us gentlemen. Good luck during the new session. Thank you Gary. Thanks Rochester and Abrams for Minnetonka joining us here on our midday program. I'm Ray Suarez. What if reporters always ask the question on your mind? What if the media always listen to your ideas on NPR's Talk of the Nation we give you the opportunity to make sure that happens. We throw your questions and your comments into the mix everyday on top of the nation from NPR news. Mr. Suarez and Talk of the Nation begins at 1 this afternoon over the noon hour. We're going to hear from Gail Sheehy on men and some of the challenges they face as they get older right now. It's time for The Writer's Almanac. And here is The Writer's Almanac for Monday the 30th of November 1998. It's the birthday in Phoenix 1929 of the woman who began Sesame Street in 1969 Joan Ganz Cooney. It's the birthday of singer and guitarist brownie McGhee and Knoxville, Tennessee, 1915 photographer Gordon Parks in Fort Scott, Kansas 1912. It was on this day in 1900 in a Paris hotel room Oscar Wilde died after setting of the wallpaper in the room one of us had to go. It's the birthday of Sir Winston Churchill born at Blenheim Palace in Oxfordshire 18742 Lord Randolph Churchill and a wealthy American Jennie Jerome. Sir Winston Churchill who said Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result. It's the birthday of the author of Anne of Green Gables Lucy Maud Montgomery born on Prince, Edward Island Canada in 1874. It's Mark Twain's birthday today Samuel Langhorne Clemens in Florida, Missouri, 1835 author of Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer Innocents abroad A, Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. Who said the man who is a pessimist before the age of 48 knows too much if he is an optimist after it he knows too little. And it's the birthday of satirist Jonathan Swift in Dublin 1667 who wrote Gulliver's Travels and who said when a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign that the Dunces are all in Confederacy against him. Here's a poem for today by Mark Irwin entitled Woolworths. Everything stands wondrously multicolored and a detention in the always Christmas are what scent lingers unrecognizably between that of popcorn grilled cheese sandwiches malted milk balls and parakeets. You came here in Winter to buy your daughter a hamster and were detained by the bin of multicolored songs for pair for a dollar. You came here to buy some envelopes the light blue par Avion ones with airplanes, but caught yourself lost daydreaming saying it's too late over the glass a diorama of cakes and pies. Maybe you came here to buy a lampshade the fake crimped kind and suddenly remember your grandmother did 20 years floating through the old house like a curtain have you retired on Social Security and came here for the roast turkey dinner or the liver and onions or just to stare into a black circle of coffee and a good warm or maybe the big church down. The street is closed now during the day and you're homeless and poor or you're rich or it doesn't matter what you are with a little Loose Change jingling in your pocket begging to be spent because you wandered in and somewhere between the bin of animal crackers and the little zoo in the back of the store. You lost something and because you came here not to forget but to remember to live Entitled Woolworths by Mark Irwin from his collection quick now always published by boa editions limited and used by permission here on The Writer's Almanac for Monday, November 30th made possible by primedia special interest Publications whose titles include Horticulture sale and craft magazines be well. Do good work and keep in touch. 12:00 noon. This is midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio. We're going to take a break here and catch up on some news headlines. And then right after the news we're going to hear from author Gail. She who is out with a new book called understanding men's passages. Look at some of the challenges facing men as they get older. I'm John Raby and on Mondays All Things Considered restoring the Birch Coulee Battlefield from the Dakota conflict. It's all things considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio know FM 91.1. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a cloudy sky 38° at Canada W FM 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul The Weather Service says it should clear off later this afternoon. Hi, I'm right around 40 degrees right where it is clear tonight with an overnight low 25 to 30 Sunny and warmer tomorrow that I back into the mid-50s.