It's about a minute now past 12 and welcome back to a special edition of midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm very active today. We're focusing on education specifically The Forum on education hell last night at the University of St. Thomas a Foreign featuring all three major party candidates for Governor. Skip Humphrey Norm Coleman and Jesse Ventura during the first hour of program. We heard extended comments and education from each of the candidates during this all our will present the question-and-answer session that followed then we'll be opening the phone lines for your comments and what the candidates have been saying we'll be talking with Humphrey Institute education expert Joe Nathan and we're also going to be talking with Minnesota's New Teacher of the Year Ellen Delaney to get her perspectives on what's happening in Minnesota classrooms. Let's get started with the question-and-answer segment here with the first question for the candidates is the moderator of the Forum. Dr. Anita Pam push the director of the Bush Foundation.Can't learn suggest the complex set of factors which includes Mobility language. Use that is a folks for whom English is not their first language family issues poverty and other social factors. What should be the role of the schools regarding the social factors that influence learning? And maybe I'll maybe since we just finished with the mr. Humphrey. Why don't we start with the mirror Coleman Community rather just on the backs of schools. It gets back to buy basic, that this thing is that you start with with with Economic Opportunity making sure that Mom and Dad has a job. When you do that, you have a far greater chance to it to resolve. These other issues one of things that you can do it again, I think teaches got to teach Basics and it is about real basics for things you can do as you can bring community in school together like we've done in St. Paul achievement plus we have in the school a community center a place where parents can can be and can gather we have services at the county provides, but the schools need to provide the basics. We need to make sure that we have that Economic Opportunity and growth and then we City County Community nonprofit sector need to come together to do a better job addressing these issues. Miracleman Ventura and look at personal responsibility. If you look throughout this room here every one of us came from immigrants. And when those immigrants came to this country, there was no government program waiting for them. You know, when they came here there wasn't the government handout government insurances that you would be successful in the United States of America, but there was the opportunity to be successful placed upon yourself. Quick example may schunk my lieutenant governor candidate came here from her family came from Croatia mother and father could not even speak English when may went to school in first grade. She would come home that day and teach her mother and father English. I think she was a teacher in the making wasn't she at a very early age. So again, we should be there to support absolutely but many social issues. They fall on the backs of government cannot answer all those questions personal responsibility must come in there for you having the desire to succeed. We provide the educational system for you to do that, but you can't teach people that don't want to learn it falls back to yourself. Thank you very much. You just say is we address social issues. We have to take a look at our schools. As one of the great assets that we have that we can tap into in beginning to help solve that there's no doubt. The first and foremost we have to get it right within the family and that's something both personal. It's also a societal concern that we need to see if that happens. But I think of Anderson Elementary school over in Minneapolis, for example that has a medical clinic. This is a safe place a good place for families that Gather. In fact, they have brought in a very substantial number of families that work as partners in education there and it's the kind of place that the drawers that Community to the centerpiece when my children were going to Zachary Lane Elementary out in Plymouth. It was the place that that frankly our whole life kind of Senate around that two people would say they wouldn't say what which town did you live in the summer? They asked which school you went to that's the centerpiece of we're so much of what happens that connects between our family and our society and it's where we first reach out to find professional help when we know that something isn't going right so I would just say that It is critical that we continue our efforts to see that our social concerns also become involved in the education system fight by our own self decision of choosing whether or not we want that in our local schools. I think it's a it's a very good way of beginning to solve some of these problems at an early stage. Thank you very much will turn out a microphone number one and have a our first question asked. Star Tribune, there was an article addressing the imminent shortage of K through 12 Educators various solutions. For example higher teacher salaries have been suggested. What do you plan to do about this problem? Is that address to anybody in particular all of them? Okay, who would like to start? Okay if attorney general Humphrey, why don't you start I think my comment you saw the my proposal for helping us deal with this come to grips with this problem that we see. I've not only maintaining it that they Workforce a teacher Workforce that we have but we've got a major short-term problem coming up with a great many of the teachers that are going to retire. So I do think that making sure our salaries are competitive. So that teachers don't say well, I think I'm going to leave this area and go off into something else. I want to make sure that they can also teach and smaller classes. That's terribly important. They can actually achieve the goals that they are working to achieve with student very very important. We support that and then we probably need to expand the teacher work for so that we can have those smaller class sizes and we need to support with with teacher assistants and and that kind of effort so that you're dealing with the problems not only of those children who perhaps are not so challenge but with the children in the classroom that sometimes are very challenged whether it's with disabilities or other kinds of concerned. We need to be able to address all of those things even sure how you're going to make the teaching profession more attractive. Well, first of all, that's exactly what we have to do make it more attractive to teach schools can't be a place where teachers have to go and be in fear. I think we have to put discipline back in the schools. We have to allow teachers to be able to discipline children at your children again, we've gotten away from that when a child gets out of line. They have to be dealt with in in in a in a manner that shows that there are consequences. Out there that you obey the rules we live in a society where rules must be obeyed and I think following up on that we were at when I grew up everybody wanted to be a teacher. I remember going to school everybody will I want to be a teacher? Why because you had respect for your teachers you respected them as children and I think it comes back to that again of gaining respect back in our institutions so that when the children go there they know what they're there to do their there to learn they're not there to have every social plowed problem of their life salt too many children come with too much baggage and we're expecting our teachers to be social workers as well as teachers. We need to get him back to doing what they do in that is teaching every Enterprise in Minnesota today for every employers teachers business big business small business find Qualified workers. They can use is very simple and really is it a common sense? Lucian it, it's the environment in which people that work there that says this is why I want to be start by rewarding Excellence, but teachers know that if they if they enter this profession and they Excel that we we reward them as I said in my opening remarks at education government are the only two institutions and I know that don't reward excellence and I think you got to get from all the candidates. You're a real commitment to marry pay did not sure whether it's there or it's not their chips back and what it is about rewarding Excellence. Let people know that if they do well there their they're going to be watered secondly is the environment in Jesse talked about a little bit it is about giving cases the opportunity to teach you to safe environment. Give me the ability to have some control in the classroom back them up so that they didn't have the ability to do what they want to do is just teach and the third piece is to stop having State bureaucracies and others mandate things on their back that make it impossible for Entity that's all that you would profile of learning teachers. Tell me that they're the word that the spending more time dealing with it with the bureaucracy and paperwork. Then they are doing the mission give teachers shape the environment that is a kind of environment you feel proud to work in your Administration backs you up and you're not being buried by mandates from on top you'll do that. And I think that's Park will be there in what folks one into the profession. All right. We'll move on to a question here at the other microphone question is for all the candidates as well given at the Minnesota state higher education grant program is recognized as one of the most effective higher education grant programs in the nation. Will you oppose efforts to weaken or undermine the design of the program and will you support efforts to leverage federal dollars to enhance the program to even more low and moderate-income students? Why don't you start Jesse very quick and simple. Yes, I'll support it. Yes, it needs to be there and they'll give full support for me is a governor in support of higher education. I don't have to go on anymore. Thank you Norm. I think this should be the easy one for everyone that the answer is yes, I did because we need to make sure that there is opportunity for kids and it's this is the way in which we can do it. We've got it we need it. So many levels that have that kind of vigorous advocacy for our kids and and not just here when the responsibilities of government or it's a big of it is to lead is to be an advocate. I've understood that being a mayor and I'd understand that has Governor. So with Jesse the answer is it certainly yes, we propose for higher education. You need to have the full spectrum of individuals covered. Absolutely. We are going to do that. Okay. Let's go on to another question. Complained about the new graduation rule What specifically will you do about the profiles of learning? What changes will you suggest? Why don't we start with the American woman since he's referred to it once or twice per sheet really have to break into two parts that one do we want high standards and accountability. Yes, but the problem with with with the profile of learning is what you have is you have these prescriptive dictates from the state that tells teachers and parents. Here's how we're going to meet those standards and that doesn't make sense that we know we all give with we give you a mouth that the issue of of local involvement parents and teachers being an evolved local control, but you really got to stand behind that you got to stand behind that you got to allow parents and teachers at the local level to say here is how we will meet those standards. They know best. You got to really believe in them. There may be some districts and I've talked to the superintendent said we want them to keep moving forward in this Direction that's their option, but when you get the state coming in literally with the Prescriptive mandates here is how you feed. These are the performance packages. Here's how you going to meet those standards. What what you do? Is he hurt in the end? We got to get back to that. We're the kids. The other ones that this is about it's not about systems and programs and mandates. It's about kids and are they reaching the highest standards and who knows best how they going to reach those standards and I truly believe that parents and teachers know best not bureaucrats in st. Paul in Washington, and we really got to give them back some more Authority some more control so that our kids are kids get the best education. I believe in the profiles and learning but I think as I said in my opening remarks, you must have the local in put the folks on the front lines have to be able to have time they have to have the resources that's parents and teachers. It is critical that we allow that kind of flexibility to see that we meet those gold. Now, I understand that every single one of our school districts have accepted the standards and I think that's good. But I have also and I've also had a chance to visit with a number of teachers and they said they're very excited about what they see is the goal but they also are under extreme pressure to get this thing done right away. And the fact is that they need the time to understand how to achieve those goals in the fashion in the needs of their school with their school district working with their parents and kids. So, I think you need to give greater flexibility, but I don't think we should back away. From the standards and what do we want to rename at anything else or whatever we are going to have to face the facts folks meeting benchmarks is not easy. I seen that as I've had the opportunity to serve on on the State Board of investment and having to make sure that those question marks are made and sometimes we have to adjust the benchmarks because things change but the reality is that everybody accepts the idea of the standards and that's very very positive. Now, how do we get that input at the local level? That's the critical concern? And as your Governor, I'm going to be working very closely with teachers and parents and local school districts and student to see that we set those standards right from the bottom up. Thank you. Mr. Ventura. First of all, you got a great example of bureaucratic government that was thrust down the throats of the teachers far far too quickly. They should have been implemented much much slower. If they were going to bring it across the board instead of a yes or no black and white way that it was implemented. It should have been moved in much more gradually Meshach and I have already decided that what we will do we will form a task force immediately who which will come from both teachers parents and everyone involved in the local school level to take a hard. Look at the profiles of learning in this is this new teaching that is now going on and I'm not saying I'm against it. I have mixed emotions. I think there's good and I think there's certainly some things that are poor in it. And that's what we need to do. We need to wait our way through it to determine what is good. And what is not the one thing that I am learning right now in going out there is the kids like it. Now isn't that half the battle I have an 18 year old son and if he light he just graduated and if he liked his class my goodness he got a raise but if he didn't like it he got season up to keep the old man off his back And so that's half the battle with the kids. They have to like if they're going to learn if they don't like it. They're not going to learn and then I think I'm the other side of the issue and let's be very honest. There are some teachers out. They're not carrying their end of the log and some of them don't like this because it's going to force them to work harder. They that Dave had a set agenda for 20 years. They go through the motions they get their check and they may not be really and truly into it anymore. This is going to make them get into it. So again, there's good. There's bad. Let's it's it's implemented right now. We have to deal with it. The law says, it's there the legislature passed it. So let's make the best of it. Let's give it a chance and let's weed through and keep the good and weed out the bad. Thank you. I know the next question. What's your opinion about allowing? Welfare recipients to count at least two years of post-secondary education as work time. This is addressed to all all of the above. Okay. I think that's a very very good suggestion. This should be part of their retraining and what it should not count against the a 60-month. I think that really short changes them. You know what that's 60 months. Sounds just great folks as we've got a booming economy. But if the thunder clouds that we all know her out there come to roost a little bit Moraine on Minnesota or the rest of this country. We are going to be asking ourselves. How are we going to meet this Challenge and one of the things we must do is support people who are coming off of welfare and going to work and we ought to count that not count that as part of that 60 month. That ought to be a strongly supported as an educational investment. Just like we're going to need to help those working. Or find the kind of healthcare that is necessary for them. When all too often. They get a job that in a company that doesn't have coverage and that's one of the things that I've posed in my budget is to find that kind of resources well to invest in their in their effort to stay independent. So I think it's a very positive move that we should do that. Let me turn to I'm trying to mix up the Border as you can tell I'll let's turn to a Jesse Ventura next well to me when you talk welfare. What a message Ben. There should never be a situation where people are penalized for trying to better themselves whether it be education getting education, so they can go out and get a job or actually getting a job. I mean for years and years our welfare system. It didn't encourage that because if you got a job you lost your benefits that makes no common sense or logic. We need to work hand-in-hand said a thing to work. The exchange goes like that. When you start working you gripper you gain your go up. If you get educated you gain your go up pretty soon you move this way, and your subsidy becomes less less and less. So getting to the point. I feel absolutely that have positive steps are being taken by that person on welfare. I don't think anyone has a problem with with if they know that the person is attempting to better themselves to eventually they will do better and get off welfare and even more so than social welfare. Let's bring up corporate welfare for a change. Thank you. miracleman Observations of first Skipper I would know Dan in with with every answer that there is something in your budget that there's a program that this is going to address him and I would quote Ted Mondale who said you've got a billion dollar hole in your budget. You just get you can't you can't promise all these things. It really can't in the end of this area in particular. The fact is that we've made a transition in this state from from welfare to work and it's been a very good transition ever. Everyone was saying the sky is going to fall if wins do the concept of work there. And in fact, it hasn't happened. We have cut welfare load significantly and this state and the fact that there's dignity and work that should be the focus. Those people who should work should work they going to get benefit that's a very simple proposition. And as I say that I understand the reality is that for some folks that needs to be an educational piece for the folks. There's a daycare piece, but the fact is we should be doing what we can to shorten. That. And so we can shorten it from 2 years that to you. You can if you can shorten that period of time the goal should be to make sure folks are working and end and we have in fact Jesse change the system. So therefore if you're working you're not losing it benefits we've done that and the fact is it is working. Our challenge now is our biggest challenge is to connect people with the jobs are out there. As I said early the biggest single issue facing business today or qualified workers. So we got to do is figure out how to make the connection between the folks in the job and then have a commitment to lifetime learning get him into the workforce get him into the workforce that's important. If you do that, there is great. Dignity and work. I think there is greater a great opportunity. So yeah, we can shorten that period with an understanding that work is important and then do all people working there could be opportunity continue education, but let's shorten the connection and make that link be from welfare to work as soon as we can. all right, we'll go on to this is specifically for miracleman. How do you reconcile your commitment to Neighborhood schools with your support of Charter and other alternative schooling that takes children from their neighborhood? First Neighborhood schools neighborhood schools are are critically important we need to do away with with forced busing we need to do the things we can to reinstitute innate in a neighborhood the census. This is the school by any ties back by the way into the understanding that one of us important thing in a child's education is Mom and Dad's involvement. I watch kids in St. Paul get one of my mom Community get on a school bus and travel across the city and there's a school nearby and the fact is that those moms and dads and have little opportunity to ever get involved it to make that two to make it to where those schools are. So you start with in a good neighborhood schools. But what I also said and I'm very consistent is that this not one-size-fits-all there are magnificent and wonderful things going on with charter schools in some kids for whatever reason find that that Charter School environment is what they need to succeed is a charter school on University Avenue Wayne Jennings was one of the Innovative group and education put it to They have almost year-round school. I believe they do Merit pay. I've talked to those kids for them. It's fabulous. So you can do both. It's not one of the other the public school system should be focused our neighborhood schools. But in addition we should have the capacity to create other options. When I took office as mayor. We had one at Charter School try to buy the school. But in fact it was City Academy that was house and enabled rec center today. I believe we have 11 or 12. I'm looking around with moving forward with a whole range of them kids need options charter schools, by the way on public schools, but they claim they meet the understanding that there is not one-size-fits-all for education. So yes, you can have strong neighborhood schools. And yes, you should have charter schools because they create greater opportunity for our kids and that's what this whole debate should be about. Is anybody else want to comment on Charter Schools before on various alternatives to schools before I move on to the next question? Skip to have not only Charter Schools, but you need Learning Centers. You need magnet schools. You need the unique relationships that are being experimented with between Robbinsdale School District in Minneapolis. There are many many choices that need to be placed within the public school. But we have to ask ourselves is how are you going to be able to do that? I get accused all the time of having billion-dollar problems here. The reality is folks to take a look at my budget. I think it's the only one you can look at because I don't think any of the other candidates have shown you a fully balanced budget and the ways in which we will pay for. Those investments in Minnesota's families education and Healthcare Safe Streets and the tax cuts that we've proposed. It's very hard. Of course for you to judge when you don't have the comparison. I've merely asked my colleagues to make sure that they provide that so that you the people of Minnesota have that full opportunity to be the judge but you need to have that full range. You need to have that full range of choice within the public education has estimate and be honest about it. If you're siphoning off dollars into the public set into the private sector. It's going to be very hard to meet in a balanced budget. The kind of opportunities that we're talking about. Do you want to take? Thank you. I want to dwell a little bit on this merit-pay that I'm hearing so much about here tonight. I oppose merit-pay. I think that brings politics into school. And let me give you an example when I served in the military which my two opponents never did so they don't have that experience. No, seriously, would you get Merit pay in the military? If you were a certain pay grade and you did an exceptional job do they then booster that is left up to whom your commanding officer you executive officer who's going to determine this this sub jective merit-pay that's going to happen in both. Mr. Humphrey. And mr. Coleman have supported this. I've heard them in and I do not support this. I believe that you take care of paying your contract negotiations and it should be kept there and it should not be left up a bringing politics into the school of who's going to pay who doesn't who gets it and who don't Well, our time together is just raise a sign saying we have time for just one more question. So I'll call on the microphone over to over here for the last question too much or too little support to the University of Minnesota and which parts of the University of Minnesota deserve more funding. Let's ask the Attorney General to start on this one. Let me just say this but I think every one of us believe in our University. We know that it's one of the great institutions in the world. It's not only a great research institution. It is a great learning institution and its challenges are number one to redefine itself to ask the question. What is a land grant College mean in the 21st century. So that's number one and that would include looking at what are the priorities but secondly what are University needs is a stable and steady commitment. From the people of Minnesota through their elected officials by the legislature and the governor for the resources that are needed and investment. And while I commend the governor for his very very significant contributions in this last go around, you know, if you ask anyone at the University, it's been like this. And you cannot make the long-term commitment. You want to know about Economic Development and the tools for economic development. It is the University of Minnesota and the great Higher Learning institutions that is where we need to make a long-term commitment as your Governor. I'm going to work with the university the Board of Regents and with our legislature and we will come to terms as to how we are going to provide that steady significant investment that will bring about the kind of returns that we have seen over the years and decades that that university has been there. I think that's the most important thing I can do. I can't tell you the specific area. I don't think that's in a sense the responsibilities of the governor at this point. I'm telling you. I know that won Governor loves basketball. Guess what? I love hockey, but I don't think that's where we put our priorities. I think we need to make sure it is in those learning and in those research areas with a steady ion. The goal towards the future. Thank you. I'm more or less or just about right amount of funding for the University of Minnesota to recognizing the importance of the University of Minnesota bother you SLI a land grant institution. So so why the keys to our economic future the whole Medical Technology developments in Minnesota really fueled by University of Minnesota some of the advances in agriculture fueled by the University of Minnesota. So we start with with a fundamental commitment because of the understanding how important they are to our future. I also want to add to this at 8 an expression of support for leadership with Mark yudof. Who I think is a provided tremendous leadership is a man with great vision. So I think the university is under sound is under a firm footing I have to smile because I know when he submitted his latest budget proposal. He said I don't think I'm going to get all of it, but you got to kind of asked and he certainly not afraid too afraid to ask. Let me see a saying that I want to get back in and where I began on the fundamental issue of the importance of economic vitality and Skip I do have to respond. You don't have a balanced budget. What you have is about 5 billion dollars of spending promises. We start with a very different presumption state of Minnesota spends 23 billion dollars every two years ago from a 23 billion in the question government has grown by close to 30% in the last 4 years. So the challenge then of leadership becomes not using that as the base and promising billions more what you can't achieve which in the end was his greatest cynicism and then rata taxes and greater economic distress. The challenge is within that 20 through going to do what everyone else does it do more with less to do it though and to provide for these you make choices the same choices moms and dads make and if you do that we can deliver on these commitments in addition you then grow jobs and roll the economic pie have greater resources. That's the way we're deeper vaginas. Only Crossing understood. That's what Governors understand. It's not just about promises. It's about generating an environment of Greater Economic Opportunity which will allow us and to meet the needs and concerns of the University of Minnesota and K through 12 education. Okay. We'll ask. I'm Esther Ventura the stage should be doing more or less for the University. I would State this we have to have a good balance. Of course, the University of Minnesota is our focal point here in Minnesota. It is B University, but we cannot forget every other Institute of Higher Learning going all the way down to the Community College is also Because you see so much hand out today of upper education. How are you going to help me? Well, I've made a statement I've made it and it's a simple statement. If you're smart enough to be in college shouldn't you be smart enough to figure out how to get through it? And there's many opportunities out there. We must support our community colleges because you can go to community colleges get your core classes done before you transfer over to the University of Minnesota for your second two years and all of that. So I think we have to find a nice balance between the University of Minnesota and all the other institutions of Higher Learning because they all play I think in their own way and equally important role. I want to thank candidates Coleman Humphrey and Ventura for sharing their views this evening and also to all of you for attending this forum. I think we've had a stimulating and wide-ranging discussion and the questions you provided as well as the views of the candidates have expressed have pinpointed many concerns and strength of the world of Education while you're all pain during your own attitudes and values on these topics. I along with the American Association of University women want to encourage you to vote on Election Day. I also want to acknowledge the leadership of the AAUW and organizing this particular program with thanks to the AAUW branches in St. Paul at the 3M Center and at the University of st. Thomas and my thanks to Father dentist. He's in the university for hosting us to NPR for broadcasting the program and allowing many other Minnesota to share in this discussion with that. I will declare the proceedings officially adjourned. Thank you and goodnight to all of you. That was dr. Anita Pam push the director of the Bush Foundation the moderator of last night's Forum on education sponsored by the American Association of University. Women Forum was held at the University of St. Thomas joining us not to talk some more about education issues facing. The next Governor is Joe Nathan the director of the center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute, and we also invite you to join our conversation. We're interested in your reaction to what the candidates are saying about education. Give us a call. 227-6002 to 76 Thousand Oaks High the Twin Cities 1-800 242-282-8227 6001 800-242-2828 from all three of the major party candidates at some length really about education and 227 6001 802-422-8280. Thank you coming in today in the interest of full disclosure. You're not publicly supporting anybody, right? Exactly right. Okay overall. Do you think education is getting the kind of attention that it deserves during a campaign or kind of a quick once-over? I'm encouraged. I think it's delightful marvelous at the debate took place. I'm delighted us as always at MPR step forward as an MP. Remember. I'm delighted that, you know MPR making good use of the resources and broadcasting this route site and I'd have to say that people in the state have a big choice. I mean you heard some very different points of you last night. I was in the audience through almost four hundred of us last night. And as I'm sure listeners heard, there are some big differences among the three folks lots of attention is focused. Once again on the profile of learning that was a big rally at the state capitol yesterday. The candidates talked about it extensively during the Forum. What is Etsy? Can the can the program if the candidates want to Canada fact that you can't be scaled back at this point or so far down the road that all the hand-wringing over profile of learning is just a little bit too late. Now. I can be scaled back that can be modified. It can be adjusted. In fact, one of the things that's happened over the last 10 years that we've been discussing. This is that they're open constant modifications. I think the discussions excellent. I think there are many terrific parts of requiring kids to demonstrate skills and knowledge before they graduate we've talked about this before. I think it's a lot like that graduated like like the driver's test where you have both a paper pencil in the actual getting out on the road experience, but I think there are some concerns have been raised at the same time. I think some of the criticisms really missed the mark and so I hope we can have more discussion of the profiles of learning. I mean to say one other thing because of all the controversy the center for school change in conjunction with Mankato State St. Cloud State is is sponsoring forums this month I both insane in St. Cloud in Mankato about the profile run. Turn here from some teachers who are carrying it out. I think making terrific you so the opportunities that it that it offers for teachers and Amanda families when you get to teachers aside privately. What are they saying about the profile of learn lots of different things. I'm on a site council at a school in St. Paul where our daughter public school or a daughter can send some of them very frustrated some of them excited. I spend Saturday with our daughter and another young woman 12 years old at the State Historical Society. They're doing research about one of the requirements, which is it. They learn about their own Community. Some teachers are very excited. I'm teachers are frustrated as Jesse Ventura said last night. I think there are some teachers that don't want to change and those teachers are raising some concerns. I also think that there has been less effective communication out of the states and I could have been I think the state is in trying to improve that but I think some of it still could use some modification and I think you hear all over the map messages from teachers. Some really liked it. Some are going to go along with it and some were really opposed to it. It seems like One of the big things that's going to face. Whoever is Governor is the fact that a large number of students may not be able to get a diploma because they haven't passed this basic skills test. Is that a legitimate concern. That's absolutely right. We were just chatting before going on the errand and I think you said it was about 2/3 of the youngsters who had failed at who took again work on at the summer and failed. I think we're going to have to really talk very seriously in the next year. Perhaps not during the election campaign. But but what are the system changes and what are the day-to-day changes were going to make in our schools? We have schools that are too big. We we know so clearly from evidence that an experienced all over the country that schools of 15 or 2000 are not schools where kids are going to most kids are going to achieve their potential are lots of other things to say about this, but I did not hear the urgency last night that I would have expected. We're going to have quite conceivably thousands of kids who are not going to be able to pass us to a sin in about 2 years. We're going to find ourselves with a very critical decision is the state going to say Note a couple thousand kids. We could quite conceivably be in that situation. I think it's one of the first orders of business for the new governor. Whoever he is now both Humphrey and Coleman said and social promotion no more social promotion no more moving kids forward just because they've gotten a year older, but sometime in is that realistic well, There are there are consequences of all of these actions mean the Minneapolis public schools are about 10 years ago said we're going to end so for a social promotion of of kindergarteners in by gosh, they had hundreds and hundreds of kindergarteners that they had plucked and after you're so they backed away from that. I think it makes sense to have standards throughout the grades. I don't think you have to have standards for every single grade, but I think we're going to be in serious trouble SS Skip Hop recessive if youngsters aren't don't learn to read by the end of the second grade. I think it was a terrific proposal. He made a time, not you know another proposals but I think mr. Humphries absolutely right to say by the end of second grade virtually every youngster oughta be able to read and we got to have guidelines that like that throughout throughout the great so that we don't confront the situation we have we are some youngsters in the 11th and 12th grade can barely read can barely do math and are not necessarily special education Joe Nathan is with us. He is the director of the center for school change at Universal Minnesota's Humphrey Institute interested in your reactions to what the candidates set during this education for him on the issue of Education. Give us Call 227-6002 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6102 for 22828. We are also expecting in a few minutes to be talking with Alan Dulaney. The new Minnesota Teacher of the Year Tim. Welcome to mid-day turn on social studies 8th graders in relation to your program. We were talking about the election to give it to her election. And we're going over the issue of Education in the one thing that I've noticed is that the voice of the students are the ones that have seemed to be ignored the most the the concerns in the in the ideas that they have have been kind of ignored and we've been talking about the issues. They find most important and I think you guys hit it right on the head a little bit a little bit ago. We started talking about classroom size and the actual function of the school itself and grad standards and all those things. They they mean a lot to the statistical outcome and to the Kind of trying to hold people accountable but the bottom line is ready kidding kids and these are the ones that we need to be listening to in their concerns are the basic ones. They don't have a place to sit. They don't have their classrooms are to their classrooms are too small. They don't have enough book. Those are the things that we need to take a look at it seems like there's quite a quite a gap there Joe between what the kids are worried about concerned about and then all this highfalutin write a wreck about world-class education. Well, not as much as you might see me first, I want to say that I'm delighted that Tim is having his kids listen to this and discuss it in and I hope that they'll take a look at it, I wrote for the Pioneer Press this morning which described a survey of 126000 students all over the state of Minnesota was done a couple years ago that the urban Coalition has just examined that looks at what the students think I think we need to take into account. What students are thinking and I agree with Tim they are they're saying those kind of think I think students want high-quality teachers and one of the real challenges of the next Governor is going to be how do we attract literally thousands and I mean the word thousand thousands of new people into the profession and keep them self. I think Tim is right. We need to listen carefully to the students. And that's one important voice Steve your comment, please. Yes. I had a question and I didn't quite hear if it happened last night or not. But I know it's been going around for the relating to the education about reducing the amount of students per classroom size 17 or even 20 a realistic number and how how expensive is that going to be to do that type of thing? Thanks for calling Steve a couple of issues first California has put a hundreds of millions of dollars into this and one of the first thing is that they've discovered is it if they're going to significantly lower class size in the traditional way then they have to have lost more classrooms that sort of goes that that makes a lot of sense but a lot of people haven't thought about that and so they're having to spend an enormous amounts of money not only on reducing class size but also on building lots more classrooms. Now, there are Innovative schools around the state that have have done this with current funding of Charter Public Schools alternative schools have significantly lower lower the class size. They spend less money on central office of functions. They spend less money and other kinds of things in and they they're able to significantly reduce the the class size and I think it makes sense. I mean, I've been a public school teacher and I agree that if you have 17 or 18 kids you're able to get to those kids much more effectively than if you have 28 or 29, but I think we need to look at the overall structure of education and recognize that if we just do it in the traditional way of saying okay, we're going to hire stylist. Thousands more teachers then we're going to need thousands more classrooms. Jesse Ventura has said that there's plenty of money to lower class size at least in the early grades one through three, but that that money is being diverted to other purposes. Is he right about that? That's an issue that came up last year and Larry Pokemon of the chair of the Senate education committee was very frustrated because he said well as anybody monitoring monitoring this in the answer was no nobody is monitoring it we know that the salaries have gone up and that's certainly one important thing that needs to happen. I think particularly for going to have more accountability of teachers, but frankly, nobody appears to have been monitoring exactly how that money was spent how much would actually went into reduction of class size versus other kinds of things. So we may have enough money to do this now or we may be spending Harry. I don't think I don't think we're currently spending enough money right now. To lower class size at grades K through three down to 16 or 17. We did a study some years ago and found that you just in one city just in St. Paul McClure class size in 24 223 is going to cost $2000000 and then and then for 23 or 22 a million dollars again. So every time just in one District of about 40000 kids, you are Lauren class size. It was going to cost $2000000 / / student so it would cost a lot of money and I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad way to spend money. But we need to think about what are the most effective ways to spend money and I think that there are better ways at starting off frankly not just with lowering glass eyes, but luring us the size of school and making much better use existing facilities downtown and in other places throughout throughout the state. We're in storefronts in the main street of Le Sueur, for example, they've had an Innovative new Public School in in a mall. Out in Rosemont. They've had an Innovative public school there different ways to make use of funds that I think really stretch the dollars and provide better Services the kids. It does seem to like that. That's the the one thing that the parents certainly emphasizes over and over again. They do these surveys while what would you think would be make the most difference in by an overwhelming margin parents site? Lower classes actually, there was just a study done by st. Cloud State and parents are ass. What's the number one way to improve achievement and and they said more family involving a lot of parents want to be involved in some really effective schools are doing and Morecambe. Joe Nathan is with us. He is the director of the center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute. Also joining us now by phone is Minnesota's New Teacher of the Year. Ellen Delaney name is Delaney who teaches math at North Saint Paul high school was named yesterday at an education Minnesota luncheon. Congratulations, or do we really need to make some major changes? I think we're we're getting a good education. I when we compare Minnesota to other states, I have to say that we do quite well. If you look at act and SAT scores, we ranked in the top three in the nation when you look at our Kim study we did very well. That doesn't mean though that there isn't room for change when we look at an international studies. It it becomes more serious. I would say Silver Bullet for it to help the kids who aren't doing so well. I think they're this is it requires a lot of people getting involved in education and I agree that parents parental involvement is key to every thing I think that students getting engaged in their learning and knowing that that success is important having goals to reach is important. I think that for a long time just being there with enough and I think that's what the profile of learning does and I think that's what the new grad standard says is that your your participation is is good, but you have to achieve something and I think that that's important for kids. I think involve teachers teachers who are excited about what they do is Keith at us. So I think there's a lot of people involved and we all have a piece of this. What are you hearing from your your colleagues this profile of learning is coming under renewed criticism again are most of the teachers that you deal with are they gone the whole hundred percent behind this the people that I spend time with and the people that I work with we've talked about this for a long time. This isn't something that just happened overnight, but we really are in the beginning stages of this you need to give school time time to implement the change. When you consider the number of people involved in this process, we're right at the beginning stages. This is way too early to talk about pulling it out. We haven't even started. There's a big job to be done. What do you think about all the changes that have to be made? I feel like we're we're in the very beginning your one year 2, is it worth making those changes lutely? I think the kids we want kids to compete in the global market. We want kids to have goals that they can achieve and something if they can strive for and work for we want academic excellence and Minnesota has been a leader in the nation and we want to continue to be do you feel like you feel that you have enough flexibility to design a program that fits the needs of your students or is the program that's been polished here pretty cut-and-dried in my district. We're the ones who write the curriculum were the ones who determine when and how our secretaries are going to be taught. I don't know where that story got started that we that we have lost control of our school. It doesn't make any sense at all. We are absolutely involved from the beginning sleeping involved. I have to say we have a wonderful curcuim director in my school district and I've been on board with this for a couple of years. We've been talking about this you are more than probably most other teachers would certainly qualify. I assume what you think about this Merit pay idea. I'll tell you the truth. I haven't much thought about it. It's obviously not the money. That's not why I teach and I just really love what I'm doing. I love working with kids tonight. I love mathematics. And so I have to say I haven't given that much thought you think it would be a good motivator though for other teachers, you know, I mean if you work a little put some extra time and work a little harder shouldn't you get Alexa more extra money. How do you know what the time is in and how do you compare? I guess I I don't I just don't have a sense of this. Well, thank you so much for joining us and congratulations again. Thank you. Thanks a lot Ellen Delaney. Who is the new Minnesota teacher of the year here in Minnesota. She was named yesterday. She teaches math at North Saint Paul High School in North Saint Paul. Nathan is with us. We're talking about education specifically the governor's position or the governor's candidates position on education. We've been listening to a education Forum. That was the hell last night broadcasting that today and getting some reactions as well. Go back to the phones Jeff's on the line with some thoughts on what he's been hearing from the candidate Jeff. Jesse weather sir Senator Cohen son Jake Cohen is is there. I was at the Forum last night and need to follow up on some of his comments because it would be like in three weeks away motors have to be careful as to what politician saying what they actually do he took credit last night for what's a tremendous program in St. Paul the partnership between the simple School District in the Wilder foundation. And in all honesty is is Chairman of the state government finance committee. And somebody who was on the the bonding Committee of the bonding, We made an attempt to provide full funding for the for the Wilder up to unplug schools and we did not have a word of support for the mayor's office. Not a word he takes credit for something like this after the fact that's not what we were able to do what during the session and in trying to get support from his office. And to be honest with you. Give me that's also coupled with the fact that at the end of the Before you talk about the University of Minnesota and indicated the need to provide support the single biggest difference in the bonneville's this year. We're at the center provided full funding for the University of Minnesota. And it's very needed request the house provide full funding for the nearest hockey arena and that was a basic difference between the two bills. And I know I receive criticism for not being enough of a cheerleader for the hockey but filling terms of priorities, we did not get support from the mayor or his office relative to what I thought was the highest priority the Bible which with University Minnesota terms of a Statewide priority North St. Paul which were the chief and plus coils and it's comes last night was simply disingenuous and terms of his support because when it came time to actually provide that support and have it makeup mean a different make a difference. He wasn't there. Thank you, Senator Harry Reid Senator de colon from Saint Paul and the colon is a d a feller Jeff now, it's your turn. I'm sorry. I pushed the wrong button. Or go ahead place for a good idea. And what I was hoping to hear about was more not only the classrooms that need to be built at the lower class size, but also the teachers and the teacher training in particular that would indeed be required to lower class size and find out on those dishes my teeth. . They didn't talk much about teacher training. We're actually doing a big study. The legislature has asked the Department of Children families and learning to make some comments about that and maybe come back in three weeks or so. We'll have more information about that, but I can tell you we've surveyed mm of school administrators around the state and they have a number of suggestions about ways to improve teacher training and I think one of the questions also is how do we attract bright young people into the profession? We have a daughter who's who's in college and she's thinking about going into education. She's bringing some mathematics just looking different possibilities and one of the issues as pay but also one of the issues is flexibility how much time she's going to have to really carry out the idea that she has so we do need this is this I would say one of the central challenges for the next Governor is going to be how do we attract the people in education? Keep them that we're going to need to replace the thousands of folks are leaving longer-term. Is it going to be necessary to try to get people involved in teaching who don't have the formal education degree? Maybe they They have some real world training and experience but aren't official teachers right? There is some flexibility currently in Minnesota. This is a very hot topic and I guess I didn't say I think that there needs to be a place for somebody who has demonstrated that she or he can teach it isn't just a matter of knowing mathematics or science or or biology or whatever well, but there are people who are very very gifted teachers are not necessarily gone through College of Education. Some states have found it very very effective to take such people put them with really high quality folks like this state teacher of the year who founded Marvel time. I said, I really appreciated her emphasis on we're doing many good things. We need to do better really appreciated that kind of perspective. So I think that we can make better use of people who are fine teachers, but I'm not necessarily gone through College of Education. That's good. At least one more call her on here before we wrap up John. And you're talking about your shirt budget and you're talkin about the expanded curriculum in the expanded things and it'll win when your budget is short in any any place any place. I know of economically it makes good sense to look at your priorities cut back on the extras and look at your priorities and concentrate on those the concentration should be on the three Rs Reading Writing and arithmetic whatever and it has to be on those three and you would then be able to cut back if you didn't have all the other things. My grandchildren's are exposed to their it cost a bundle of money and yet they cannot add. And to me it seems like if you concentrate on the priority you will then have automatically a better school pass basic skills test. I've heard people like you I mean people clearly want youngsters who at least can read right and do mathematics lot of folks want more but the state the new graduation requirements high students at least have to pass basic test and Reading Writing math. So I think voice is like yours man have been heard that the legislature in the state department. Let me run a couple of other things faster very quickly here at the concept of competition thumbs up in the gubernatorial debates is that legitimate standard to bring to the education field and and Attorney General have said they believe in public school choice. I when that was introduced 15 years ago people said that's competition Lashley competition on the schools, but it's new opportunity for the families. So yeah, I think it's important to talk about it and mayor Coleman was I thought it initially to be a person who was going to be was going to propose doctor's he's made it very clear statement after statement clean last night. He's not in favour vouchers. So yes, I think we need to talk about competition and we need to talk about oportun. Everybody's appraising neighborhood schools. Is that realistic? Well, if your I was in blackduck last week and I was in I was in Houston, Minnesota and farther south and and I mean, they're all kinds of frankly. A lot of conversation about neighborhood schools ranked misses the mark in rural schools. People are used to driving 20 30 40 Mi constantly and what people like to have school is right next to the house or two blocks away shirt, but in rural Minnesota people used to this what mayor Coleman said last night and what what skip Humphrey you seem to be saying by saying you please in public school choices that families had a lot of options one of which is the option to send their kids to a neighborhood School Newburgh schools are part of the picture but it seems like we're evolving toward that's one option but there are other options as well. Alright Joe. Thank you so much for coming in today Gary very good to see you. Thanks for doing this Joe Nathan who is the director of the center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute like to thank all of you who've been with us for the special edition of midday today. And if you missed part of the program may be attuned in Layton to miss the speeches by the candidates and education missed part of the question and answer session. We will be re broadcasting the full 2 hours at 9 tonight 9 to Tonight so second chance to hear from the candidates on education. That's so tonight. Now tomorrow on midday meet-the-candidates series continues here on Minnesota Public Radio, Jesse Beth