Good morning, and welcome to the first hour of midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Raby and Fergie reaction. Although he probably wasn't planning on this being a defining moment of his presidency. Looks like today noon will be one of them President Clinton testifies before Ken Starr's grand jury today and his relationship with former intern Monica Lewinsky is very close to the administration say he may change his tune and say he did have an inappropriate relationship with that woman Miss Lewinsky after all and this our midday were considering what will the winds be controversy mean for the presidency what it says about the distinction between American public and private life and the implications of the testimony. I guess her former, Minnesota Congressman Ben Webber and Tim Penny before we talked with our guest and with you on the phone. Let's hear more about President Clinton's date with a grand. Jury. Today is National Public radio's Mara. Liasson Bill Clinton.Found himself in a particularly perilous spot this afternoon. He becomes the first president targeted by a criminal investigation to testify before a grand jury what he says could determine the future of his presidency and how he is Remembered in history. His testimony will take place in the map room on the ground floor of the East wing of the White House or Franklin Roosevelt kept track of the Allied advances during World War II the 23 members of the grand jury will watch a live video feed of the testimony from their room in the federal courthouse several blocks away White House aide say they expect the president will change his story today admitting to some kind of sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky since the Scandal broke in January. The president has denied an affair. So have his aides and so has the first lady who spoke here with Matt Lauer on NBC's Today Show, if an American president had an adulterous liaison in the White House and lied to cover it up should the American people ask for his resignation.Should they ask for his resignation? If all that were proven true, I think that would be a very serious offense that is not going to be proven true presidential advisers say they're confident the president can admit to an inappropriate relationship with Lewinsky when he testified today without opening himself up to charges that he committed perjury back in January then in the Paula Jones civil suit the president denied Underoath a sexual relationship with Lewinsky. How could he pull that off these advisers have suggested he may argue that Paula Jones lawyers to find sexual relations in such a way that the president understood it to exclude the type of sex. He and Lewinsky engaged in that might allow him to escape the legal definition of perjury which includes the intent to deceive but it won't satisfy Republican. Senator Orrin Hatch who spoke yesterday on NBC's Meet. The Press press on Clinton does have a reputation of a kind of a serial wiggle manipulator of legal terms.And if he goes in there and tries to manipulate the terms and land-use lawyer like that language to try and you know not tell the full truth. I think it's going to hurt it. So I I just hope he'll be able to tell the truth if he does that and then really ask the American people to forgive him or leave work with him. I think the polling shows that the American people probably are willing to allow him to finish out his term way to replace him until the Year 2007. He can avoid impeachment even if he does avoid impeachment. However, the president will still have to deal with a political problem that he himself created when he made this unequivocal statement to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again.I did not have sexual relations with that woman Miss Lewinsky. I never told anybody to lie. Not a single time never did say it's likely that the president will make a televised statement to the American people tonight, but that he won't make a final decision about such a public confession until after his testimony in the meantime sources say the president has been through a difficult emotional process with his family White House sources suggest that this weekend's round of lease stating that the president was ready to change his story. We're meant not only to prepare the public for such a reversal also to prepare mrs. Clinton who these AIDS believe has only recently heard the full story from her husband former white house chief of staff Leon. Panetta said yesterday on Meet the Press that the president will also have to get right with members of his staff repeatedly reassured the public that the president was telling the truth is testimony and acknowledge an improper relationship here.He obviously is going to have to go through a lot of pain himself not only in apologizing to his wife and his family but obviously to the staff and to those that He misled and to the American public. This is not going to be easy for the present. This is a tough thing to do already presidential analysts are assessing the Fallout of the Scandal David gergen work in the white house has a President Nixon Ford Reagan and Clinton is actually prove his place in history. But is he the first issue for my survival and I think he can survive if he comes forward and I think it's a lot of people will wish that the overwhelming feeling in the country is make this go away. We've heard enough more than just avoid impeachment depends a lot on what he says.Before the grand jury and before the country Mara liasson NPR news the White House president makes a public statement today will bring it to you live here on Minnesota Public Radio in the shower before the president is to testify we're asking what the Lewinsky controversy says about the presidency and about the public and private lives of politicians and other matters Our Guest for the co-directors of the Humphrey Institute policy form a former Republican Congressman Vin Weber on the line from Walker, Minnesota. Good morning, sir, Walker Bureau, you could say and 10 Pennies on the line from our Rochester Bureau. Mr. Penny. Thank you for joining us. Thank you John. I'm not sure I can say it's good to be with you. This is an issue. I haven't spoken about publicly since since this matter broke some six months ago. And then it's an issue. I have a lot of ambivalence about why haven't you spoken publicly about it?Part of it is is that when allegations like this are made we we take it into treated as if it's already a proven fact now out as things turned out it may be that the president day will testify to that effect. But I I have trouble with the degree to which we set other issues Social Security reform the crisis say in foreign policy Development Center act on the shelf and a day in and day out over the course of time fix it on on an issue like this. It's remindful of the time. We spent a couple years ago by delving into every a little nuance and detailed the OJ Simpson Affair and and I think it's a it's a real disservice to the American public to focus this much time and attention on an issue that over the course of time will ultimately be resolved and and we ought to be subjected only to theSignificant developments in this case not the sort of a day in and day out to camping out the outside of the courthouse. Are you are you disagreeing with my saying that this was a defining moment of the Clinton presidency? Well, it's it's become more of a defining moment because of the amount of fun time and attention that has been focused on this above and beyond the the level that there is actually warranted. What do you think is the Weber? Is this a defining moment? Unfortunately very well to find this is probably a defining moment in terms of what happens I guess to him and and certainly it's a I think there are broad implications for the country in terms ofAre the country views its institutions in the country view some basic elements of morality of the Legacy to use that word of the Clinton presidency. I think that's chapter is probably pretty well written and unfortunately for him and for the country, there's not much to tell it's a quarter past 11 you're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio hum John Raby in for Gary eichten. We're on the line with former Republican Congressman Vin Weber and hooked up to our Rochester Bureau with former Democratic Congressman Tim Penny, and we'd like to take your calls to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 1 800-242-2828. President Clinton is to testify before grand jury at noon hour time today. He's going to do it by closed-circuit TV from the White House and he's going to be talking about what happened between him and Miss Lewinsky and then later on.Today perhaps he will also speak to the American public and what we're talking about this our midday is what are the implications of Clinton's testimony on the president see? What does it say about public and private life for politicians the whole gamut would love to hear from you 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities or one 800-242-2828 1 800-242-2828. Let me ask you. Mr. Weber will start with you. Should this should this have any bearing on the way historians in the future. Look at President Clinton in the job that he did in the white house. So I don't think any great joy and saying that and I certainly agree with Kim but it would be nice if we could focus on the public policy issues that are going to matter to all of us like Social Security in the health of our economy. But at the end of the day you going to we have a couple hundred plus years of American history, and we know that the presidency is more thanShuffle your policy wonks position. It's also position of great moral leadership for the country. And unfortunately this president's behavior in office is teaching your generations of American kids something unfortunately about how they ought of you telling the truth something about how they are the view sexual morality and something about the how to put a go process is conducted in all those cases. It's telling them something very bad in my judgment II as much as I agree with Tim that I wish we weren't spending so much time on it. I can't help but conclude, you know, that that's that's ultimately the president's fault and I don't think I'm not naive about this. We have not had very many Saints in the white house, but this President seems to have decided to throw away any remaining standard of conduct for the presidency and and I might I don't think that he escapes the Judgment of history on that because I do think ultimately it has implications for theIf he's done this though, their presidents who have done much worse aren't there. They stand far above Clinton if again Clinton's guilty of this, I mean, I thought I don't think there's any chance at the Clinton is going to be driven from office by this but the notion that there are two options here one is to remove him from office and the other is to Simply say he did nothing wrong has always been a false option. I don't think the presents going to get removed from office, but I don't think that means we should all just say he's okay the depressed did it to him that this is nothing different than it is ever happened in the past in the past. I don't believe that. Mr. Penny. Does this damage the office of the presidency 10 years from now 20 years from now a hundred years from now.Well, I want to answer that in in two parts one is to suggest that then is right that there that there is something about this that is unsettling if if this all is proven to be true, it is a tragedy for the country and I need in it does said diminish the presidency and I think it complicates said the balance of Clinton's term. I went when I started announcing my ambivalence about this issue. It was not to say that I don't care about the about this I do care a lot about the character traits of political leaders and I do think that those those faults and can be magnified in in public office and that maybe what we're seeing here, but I think I'm also expressing of you that shared by most American and Americans and that's what can we do about it. Is this something we really want to depict the level of impeachment. Is this really something we feel require?A presidential resignation is this really On a par with something like Watergate or Teapot Dome? And I think those are the sorts of items that really find their way into the history books as you look back on this over the course of time. You certainly are less likely to see Clinton listed among the great presidents in our nation's history, but I don't think that this this indiscretion in his part again if it is submitted to in his testimony later today is the kind of thing that's going to put him in the history books in the same way that the scandals of the Nixon Administration in the Harding Administration put them in the history books 20 minutes past 11 hear the phone numbers we love for you to get involved in this conversation to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 1 800-242-2828. What do you to make of the First Lady?His protestations that this is a conspiracy. It's people who hate Arkansas etcetera Etc. Mr. Weber first lady and I think that the piece that NPR and introducing this program indicated one of the the real reasons why I think this is a far more serious matter than it said it would be if you simply learned that the president had engaged in sexual indiscretions and that is that the president apparently has has it gif this also proves to be true today apparently president apparently has misled using a generous word everyone. I mean speaking publicly to the American people perhaps to the special prosecutor in the Paula Jones case. We don't know that for sure to his own cabinet to his top staff and even apparently his wife.That's that's that's far far worse than simply learning that the president has engaged in an extramarital affair, which we could all say, we don't approve of but at the end of the day, it's kind of between him and his wife and for the president to have to have misled so systematically and so thoroughly, literally everyone in a premeditated manner I think is is is a is a different kind of problem than we've seen around here before he's left. Of course the people closest to him in the most embarrassing position is now most of all his wife.Mr. Penny, I don't find a lot to disagree with the statement that the den just made. I do think that this is a matter of trust and and again if the president admits to the the allegations in his testimony today, there are a lot of people who are going to feel that that they have been lied to the chief among them Hillary Clinton. Although there's this evidence now that you know, she's not waiting for the testimony. She now knows but the but there's also that there's also this guy and this is a point that I have I made that I think the only other time that I spoke publicly in this issue and that was with a Star Tribune interview earlier this year, but it strikes me that this this really is at its core a civil matter. It's been certified. It's a been certified channeled into a a criminal Direction with these terms of perjury and obstruction of justice, but at Metascore, it's it's a civil matter.Monica Lewinsky if she felt that this was Eva sexual harassment or or in other ways an inappropriate Advance upon her by a superior within her work setting I had civil action and end certainly could have and should have pursued that by now. Hillary Clinton has civil action if she can file for divorce, you know, this this is the sort of thing that can be sorted out in the Civil Arena and doesn't need to I have this veneer of criminality placed on it something I'd like the two of you to think about it will take a call in just a second then come back to this is exactly how much of a politician's life should be private. How much are you actually allowed to lie about if you want and how much of it should be public and since we only two former Congressman think about that for just a second and we'll come back to that question. But let's check in with John and Superior. Thanks for calling. Thanks for taking my call. I have one point and then I question my feeling is that the whole issue of these income?Is the election counters even be on Monica Lewinsky is that they apparently took place in the Oval Office and I I feel that if this had perhaps occurred, let's say in a motel or at some Faraway Retreat the idea that maybe it was a private Affair might be more legitimate, but he clearly if these are true of the allegations then he used his office and the info on since this took place in the workplace, which is paid for by taxpayers. This is an interesting distinction because it is it's being talked about that if the president makes a statement tonight he's going to do it from the White House residence. So John would it have made a difference if he was in the White House residence the Clinton private quarters?Power and that is intimidating. I mean whether they consented or not. He had a an unfair Advantage just as if someone wearing a corporate office of the president of a company and and he made some moves they might be very intimidated because it was in that office that the seat of power is it worth? What's your question for judges senators and representatives is called calling the office into disrepute here is that I don't know if I'm correct on that. But if that's the standard to look into it removal from Office Senator Packwood, I think that was started connected with that. So I'm wondering why then we don't use that same standards and I'll take the answer I update.Johnson's for Towing Mr. Penny, mr. Weber who wants to weigh in on that? I don't think either of us do but I will start to give Vin time to think a few more seconds on this side on this question and comfortable for you. Well, I mean, it's it's I guess it's uncomfortably cuz it's it's it's really splitting hairs. This is a sort of like fundraising if you're going to raise money from Fat Cats, whether you raise money at the hotel across the street from the White House or or on the public property in Lafayette park across the street from the White House, you still raising money from the same people. It's sort of a distinction without a difference and and you're raising it with the same sorts of a access Promises of access or whatever that go hand-in-hand with that sort of fundraising and in here again, it said if he had the affair at some let's see, let's say at the Hilton Head Down enough at the Carolinas or whether he he had this in the White House. It seems to me that where we're trying to create a distinction that that really that really doesn't matter. Their the fact is that if he used the authority of his office and an inappropriate way to create a sexual relationship with someone What's the problem in and that's the problem that needs to be focused upon regardless of where when and how this this might have occurred in but it also gets back to my point that if that in fact is the case. This is a civil matter in there are laws that said that the that the aggrieved victim can use to at 2 to take action against the president Justice. They could take action against any other as Superior in a working environment. I don't I understand what I'm saying. And I think that makes him some sense, but I think you can get to legalistic about this and that the reason that that I'm concerned about it and I guess like them I have not spoken ever on on this topic really it is because at the end of the day for my for all of us as Americans, the presidency is about more than fulfilling a legal job description of the presidency is about teaching by example about setting certain standards for the country. And you know, it's unfortunate for the president that puts him under a microscope and maybe set something to a higher standard than most Americans but that's really what the job has been all about. One of the things that concerns me that sort of indirectly referred to by the last caller is you going to the private sector and find a corporate executive or let's say those head of a nonprofit organization of the President of University and find out that they had engaged in this kind of condo. They probably lose their jobs. Well, what what what are we saying? Then? We said well present can do this and you can if if it proves to be the case that they live in the country about it, but nothing's going to happen in a sort of the essence of the American experience has been that the president has been in really that no man. No person is above the law and what bothers me most about this is that it appears that the lesson that we're teaching Americans is this kind of behavior is acceptable because the president can do it and get away with it. And there's not a price to be paid. This is one of the reasons that I have such a problem with this issue because the speech been just gave is typically the speech I would give on issues like this. I mean I am I am preeminent advocate of leadership by example in it. And if these allegations are true, this deeply offends me if it offends me for a variety of reasons to date ants the office it it did. Destroys the trust between an elected official in people that they that they have to serve. It sets a bad example for my children and Vince children and all the children America. I mean, I agree with all of that. But the other point is is this an impeachable offense. Is that the level to which we want to take this now that now that you know resignation from office is the sort of thing that lots of people are forced to went when a scandal the wraps and they and it's not and it's and it's not in there are no other options available, but that's the sort of thing that becomes very much a political judgment the party leaders deal with this and and here again, I don't think we want to set the precedent of of personal indiscretion of becoming impeachable offenses. It's 11:31. You're listening to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio on John R A B in for Gary iten. We're on the line with former Congressman Tim penny. Is it a Rochester Bureau and Republican former Republican Congressman. Ben Weber is on the line from Walker. Soda and it is just now 29 minutes away from President Clinton's scheduled testifying before the Monica Lewinsky grand jury. We have Ken Starr parents kind of a long shot. I'm looking at CNN right now, but there are cars pulled up in front of the White House and can start apparently arriving at the white house getting ready to ask their president. The questions will be putting to him that will be then broadcast to the grand jury via closed-circuit TV today. So it's all all coming to a head and we're talking about it here on midday. It's About 28 before noon Writer's Almanac coming up in just about 25 minutes. Michael ceresi will be at talking with us at a noon you made a speech little bit ago again inside view of the tobacco settlement will be bringing that to you at noon here on midday and meantime, give us a call 227-6000 in the Twin Cities or one 800-242-2828 back in just a moment on the next all things considered the art of woodcut printing is alive and well guess or virtuosity of tone and texture be beyond the thought. The skill that it took to render that texture is amazing even to Wood engravers a print like this is is the halfway point between a thing in a thought things considered week 3 on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities of 75 in the Twin Cities forecast in just a moment major funding for the Minnesota Public Radio documentary fund is provided by Phyllis paler in memory of Walter stremmel partly sunny this afternoon in the Twin Cities will see a high Route 85 Degrees overnight clear skies down to about 62 and then Tuesday partly cloudy 85°, once again cross the state partly to mostly cloudy today a chance of afternoon thunderstorms in the far south eyes from 70 in the north to 85 in the far South Bend Webber and Tim Penny our guests in this hour of midday or talking about the implications of President Clinton's testimony testimony before a grand jury today on the Monica Lewinsky. Mater and just bring up to date. It looks like the president of from sources very close to the president looks like he will admit to some impropriety. Although at this time. It's not sure exactly how well frankly graphic the testimony will get we're not focusing on that so much as the whole controversy here and what it says about the presidency and our phone numbers are 227-6802 for 2 2828 to the question. I put to you about 5 minutes ago now Ben Weber Tenpenny how private you get to be as a public official why you take that one on that does raise an important issue, but I don't I don't think that it's clears the president but you do have to recognize I think the in times past the private lives of presidents and other public officials were considerably more protected by the press or ignored by the press or hidden by the Press than they are right now. And the that's a change situation. But but I think you still have to cope with that different situation and people have been to public life have to deal with that. I think the Press has to think seriously though about their responsibility to me. It seems as if steadily of the standard that the press used to establish for when it was appropriate to report on the private life of public officials that standard has he wrote it to the point that there is no standard anymore and then any aspect of any officials private life now seems to be fair game. I don't think the public has a right to know a lot of what's going on, but I don't think that that wide-open standard serves the public interest either when we had to choose a President Clinton walking to church holdin Hillary's hand in one hand and the Bible in another so there he is, you know being public about his marriage there is being public about his religion. Can you have it all three ways are both ways or whatever it is. Tim penny Evidently not and I don't think we're we're going to go back in that regard it with with each passing decade. It seems that we establish higher standards for those in in public office. And I don't see once we reach this level that we're going to reverse course I expected in future campaign, especially at the national level and certainly for the presidency. They're there will be more intensive a research into the personal behavior of the candidates. This is not entirely inappropriate because I I have always maintained that an individual's of character in the private matters that reflect said the way they will conduct themselves in public office exactly. What what what what's what I heard, but I should be fair game. What should be fair game and what should not we we said what is now fair game? But what what in your in your view if you could set up a standard and write it down, what would it be? I think there has to be some some relationship to the contact of a public official in office that might be reflected upon her or impacted upon by his private life. And if I don't think you have to set the standard so strict that that you again protect every aspect of a person's private life with acid in some way be some relationship to what he's doing and if you had a president that had a drinking problem. I think we want to know that even though he might only do it private never embarrass himself in public you want to know that the president had a problem like that because it could be Ron his functioning and office again, one of my concerns about this episode that we're looking at now is I think that the running for the president to be honest with the American people and with his most trusted advisers does ultimately or could ultimately impact on his performance in office and that matters to me people who would say Japan you can take the sun if you want. They would say I have a right to know it videos the president rents. I think they're probably suck. The segment of the population of wood would want to know that or there may be people who would want to know that you can Penny. Did you ever go to a restaurant where they were trying to unionize but they couldn't you know where there was picketing should the public get to know that I mean, they're all kinds of little nuances here. Yeah, I think you're right about that and frankly by the definition of Injustice stablished. It would be hard to make a case that the clintons alleged sexual dalliances prior to running for the president that I should have been a legitimate issue in the 1992 campaign, but they've there they were they were there and frankly we elected this guy at Weis suspecting. And in fact, I would I would post your most Americans believed the allegations that were made about him in that regard in and on two occasions. We said despite that despite the fact that he's in our judgment lying about this. We're going to elect into the highest office in the other thing. I think we have to be careful about is that a lot of politicians lie. I've got a book coming out of the month. This is not a book commotion today, but it's the big lies in American politics. I mean it's sort of comes with the territory and and yes at some point. These lies can become destructive. I bet it's some other Level, you know, we have to sort this out through the two given take of a political campaign and the give-and-take of a political debate and and allow Americans to make a judgment about when things have gone too far. So I'm not sure that I can give you a good definition on what the oughta be off-limits and what shouldn't be off-limits. I can only tell you that we're sort of fun that we're sort of stuck with them the changing a definitions from a decade to decade. From election to election and in the final analysis the American public decide what's relevant and what isn't and and over the course of time that sort of sets the new standard that there then must be upheld suspecting things about it it is it the kind of before you come into office kind of is if not excused deem to be in the past and the question. How do you conduct yourself and maybe we're all quite gullible in 1992, but I certainly was led to believe that when Bill Clinton and his wife got on 60 Minutes and talked about the fact that they had in the past at difficulties in their marriage. I should have took that to me, but that's behind me. And you know what? I'm pressing United States. You don't need to worry about that anymore. One of the things I was talking about this now it is not that we have learned anything new about about this President I guess but the notion that the repairs to be going on if if you haven't got caught probably going on today, that's all different spring will end of the conversation from cotton Highway. Halfway between Duluth and Virginia, Minnesota. What's on your mind? Hard for me to present this idea, but I will try my best. I've been another wrote the political scene for many many years and I would rather bothered I'm going to bring a woman into a test or responsibilities of campaign fundraiser. If they want any results for Native Americans, they have to work through him the attorney very wealthy attorney is a Nate land all this wasn't can you help me understand how this applies to what we're talking about today. I'm going to get to the point and you have to be at least a hundred million dollar liquidity and you go around and look for young politicians members of this club at and start sounding their campaigns. And now this is where Robert Rubin come down Secretary of Treasury. He was given a horse Bill Clinton campaign fund his campaign. And here's my question kind of in a way it is it not what is not a responsibility of the morality of all the crap that. They just don't care. I don't care about what well Robert Rubin, when he was fat a funding Bill Clinton's campaign as well. So I think he would even asking here is maybe the people who put up Clinton should have been little more careful in the the very beginning mister mister Weber mobile app supported candidates political otherwise who did not always turn out as we wanted them to and I suppose we all should look more carefully at people and we back and I have to say though. I haven't spent critical the present this conversation. I want to say Secretary of the Treasury who's politics. I don't share certainly is a man of high integrity and he has been active in Democratic politics for a long long time. I suppose like all of us you can stay in retrospect. You should have looked more closely, but I wouldn't want to leave this conversation with the application that that I agree with the suggestion that there's anything other than a real man. Integrity of the office of Secretary of the Treasury It's 17 minutes before noon 17 minutes before President Clinton schedule time to testify before the Monica Lewinsky grand jury can Stars apparently arrived at the White House to ask questions that will then be Santa by wires fiber optic lines to the grand jury and I will start happening at noon President Clinton testifying and then sometime later today. It's expected. The President Clinton will address the nation on this matter and we will bring you that live here on Minnesota Public Radio now, apparently it's going to be sometime after 8 our time tonight. So I'm probably not this afternoon, but we will keep you updated on that and that brings me to my next question gentleman. How do you think that lets say none of the grand jury stuff? We don't know anything about what he said before the grand jury, everybody maintains the vow of silence that they're supposed to maintain and the president will be our first word on what was actually happening what he actually did. What are you They said is there a way that he can admit some impropriety or maybe a lot of impropriety and make it okay with the American people. What would he have to say to Penny? It has to ring true and that's the bottom line and I think I think the language of the president's speech assuming he gives one this evening will be will be watched very closely. Not just by the commentators. They always tell us what the President says or what the president said after the present is already set it but by each and every American work working at we're going to have an innate sense as to whether the president was a review leveling with us tonight. And if there's anything in the phrasing anything in the body language anything, you know, any legal isms anything that fits her a sort of cast doubt on the veracity of the statement tonight. I think that that he could see of the Trust In His presence he further erode so I don't know Gatsby explicit, but he has to be clear and I think that has been is that you know, it's a pervasive problem in politics or politicians are prone to be unclear when it suits their upper. But I think this is a moment. This is this is a moment where I his statement has to be clear. I have to be in the same thing to all listeners and and to the degree that he hasn't been clear on this and other issues in the past that he cannot afford to put in that kind of a performance tonight Mister webert. We have Orrin Hatch saying publicly that President Clinton has to tell the truth has to stay away from the legalese and I expect when he says legalese that might be something like President Clinton saying previously there is no relationship instead of there was no relationship other politicians are reacting to this year. When you hear protestations from the Republicans about all the things that President Clinton supposedly doing are they really are they really caring about the the Nation about the future of the presidency as an office? Are they really looking to November? So we we've got this was fine as we can if the president's going to be successful tonight. He's just got to speak the truth in and none of us can leave wondering what did he mean mean by that? But but I think that I think of you probably will do that to live because he knows that there isn't much of an alternative. I think one of the interesting things I'm thinking about how everybody else is reacting to this is just my judgment. I don't know if Tim would agree with me on this but the politics of this are very very complicated. I mean leave the expectation probably would be that the Republicans would just as soon as the president if they got the opportunity, I don't think that's the political judgment though. I think Republicans all the ways never say so realize that a disgraced if you will and embarrassed and we can Bill Clinton in the eye in office until the 2000 presidential election probably serves their interest a lot more than sort of cleaning up the Blackboard erasing a Blackboard and allowing a nice clean outdoor. So you got a strange situation that would probably serve the Republic in the interests not to see the president removed from office on the other hand. And I know that he would never say this probably doesn't even know it was like but I'd be surprised if Al Gore doesn't once in awhile and his most private moments. Wish the president would leave office. Is it making a lot easier for him to get elected in 2000 if he doesn't have to labor under the shadow of this guy for the next couple of years. That's a very complicated political equation. It seems I wonder though couldn't you say to that? Maybe I'll go or looks better and better. I don't think so. I think there's an analogy there that that is that minnesotans should understand quite quite. Well, I think that the the scandals and baggage of the Clinton presidency are beginning to hold down Gore very much as the Vietnam War held back Hubert Humphrey station of loyalty to his commander-in-chief just as we speak or not saying a word critical but but he couldn't really get out from underneath or another analogy might be 1978. When Wendy Anderson arrange to have himself appointed to the US Senate end and Rudy perpich. I shared in the punishment as both of them were turned out of office at the following year. I will at 77 is when this happened in 78 was when they were both punished in in November is right about the politics of this on the one hand Democrats. Do not want Clinton to be a further damage that they want a successful presidency are they certainly don't want this to be taken to the level of impeachment a but if there is significant political Fallout from whatever transpires is transpires in today's testimony in the following Revelations that may come forward. There will be a lot of Democrats that that would that would just soon have stem Clinton step aside so that we can start anew with with someone that doesn't carry the baggage that Clinton will have to carry a the balance of his term. But again, that's that's speculative because we're not sure what's going to happen now beginning in about 10 minutes. But but if if things play out badly and in these these every time you've seen a politician leave officer under under any sort of a cloud it's because Party leaders have gone. Said enough is enough. It's time to go and just be comes in many ways a political judgment on the part of others in that party that the that enough damage has been done and and that conversation then takes place now, I'm not predicting that will happen here, but I will grant it to Vin's observation on the tricky politics of this is largely accurate. And in that there may be a Democrats who who would see the prospects for the party enhanced if we had a clean slate we kind of talked about this very little but I think but again if the president speaks to the nation tonight, it looks like he's going to do it for her there at least talking about him doing it from the White House residence as opposed to the Oval Office. Does that make sense to you? Whenever I think it's the right thing to do but if they're there is that they're so it's fraud with irony. If you think about it that the president is going to talk about his personal life from the residence because it would be inappropriate. Talk about it from the Oval Office, but it's in the Oval Office at the appropriate time like the current I think that's the right thing for him to do. But I do think you know, it will be the source of a couple of Jay Leno jokes. What is it? What is a conveyor though? So you're going to see you're going to sit there. You going to watch your TV? I'll bet you won't just listen to it on the radio, but maybe watch while you're at your cabin. Maybe you don't have a TV and you'll see him in the residence. I don't know if they have a crackling fire or but it'll be a comfortable setting. What does that convey? I think the weather will convey is that this is a private matter. The president shouldn't he wants to Country to think that has as objectionable as they may find certain aspects of his behavior that at the end of the day this is private behavior. And at this is a matter for he and his wife that's certain is what the president wants to Country to thing. No matter what he has to tell us which is the maybes not going to sort of beat us over the head with it, but he wants to imply this is my private life and no no don't don't carry this on too far cuz at the end of the day, this is not about my presidency. This is not about my official duties. This is about me is Bill Clinton husband and father and that's an issue that I have to deal with mic with my family but not with the American people said we put this winner of criminality on it because he may or may not have lied about this affair a he may or may not have a suggested that others lie about it. I am in that then creates. This is a criminal charge of perjury. I do we need to remind ourselves that in in there are many reporters and and many many people in all walks of life that have gone through a divorce and in far too many instances. It was it was preceded by an extramarital affair and almost everyone lies about it and yet we we call it perjury because because it sits in this independent council's hands and then that's the and depositions have been filed and and so not we're now into a criminality of something that's largely a civil matter. But but this is a personal indiscretion. I think it's more appropriate for him to start a fess up with the public if that's what he intends to do in a way that reminds us that this is this is something that I did wrong. This is not something that that impacts on the rest of that the public responsibilities of the job at something that that I did it was a mistake it was wrong and I'm sort of confessing my personal ass in here to the pub. And and I think that's more appropriate to be done from some setting other than the Oval Office. Thank you for my Rochester Bureau former Democratic Congressman Tim Penny and Vin Weber on the line from Walker. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for this hour of midday for this conversation. Thanks for calling in and stay tuned for The Writer's Almanac. I'm Ray Suarez. What if reporters always ask the question on your mind? What is the media always listen to your ideas on NPR's Talk of the Nation we give you the opportunity to make sure that happens. We throw your questions and your comments into the mix everyday on top of the nation from NPR news. Talk of the Nation comes your way from 1 to 3 and today will pick up on the Monica Lewinsky testimony President Clinton to testify in just about 5 minutes before that grand jury on the way. We have a behind-the-scenes look at the Landmark. Tobacco trial that concluded in Minnesota. Speech by Michael cerussi stay tuned for that.