Thank you. Bob 6 minutes past 12 programming a Minnesota Public Radio is supported by standard heating and air conditioning the Twin Cities Home Comfort Experts for 68 years featuring York Heating and Cooling products. Afternoon and welcome back to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary eichten the second hour of. Midday. We have a detective story for you one that could have a profound impact on all of us main characters in this scientific mystery are frogs and toads animals. What you lived on this Earth for more than a hundred million years, they survived whatever extinguish the dinosaurs but now for whatever reason they seem to be Vanishing. Now that in itself is probably disturbing enough, but it turns out that amphibians are sensitive indicators of environmental problems there is and if we can find out what's happening to the frogs, we may be able to prevent the same thing from happening to humans Minnesota public radio's Mary Lozier has been looking into this mystery. And today we'll find out what she found out later in the shower. You'll have a chance to get some of your questions answered as well. First part 1 of Mary Special Report. To begin with it's important to understand one thing. The main reason many frogs are in trouble is not a mystery biologists call it habitat loss what they mean. Is it the places where frogs live are being destroyed or altered by people? Frog just becomes a squad on the road. Well, there's one that's not too old and it was a fairly large frog didn't make it this road west of Minneapolis Cuts right through the Baker park reserve Every Spring and fall thousands of leopard frogs have to cross the heavily-traveled two-lane Highway during their migration every year Madeline link of the Hennepin County Park Department. Enter volunteer helpers save many of the frogs from becoming roadkill, but to do it they have to trap them in buckets. Then carry each one across the road. The road is a problem the frogs long history on this planet has not prepared them for like fix a captured frog out of one of the buckets and it powers in her hand shielding. Its eyes with its two front feet in a startlingly human gesture. I've seen them on the road when a truck is coming and they actually squat there and do this. I get over their eyes to the rise and they make themselves big they puff up. That's it. That's a response from the snake before you approach them bigger obviously doesn't work with a truck but they still go through the motion. What's happening to the leopard frogs outside of Minneapolis is being repeated all over the country and all over the world New Roads drained Wetlands log forests and other human cause disruption are the main reasons why not just frogs but many other species are dying out at unprecedented rate by some estimates one half of the world's species will be gone within the next sixty years a rate of Extinction unequaled in human history. That much is well understood, but something is happening to frog that baffles scientists frogs are also disappearing from some of the most beautiful untouched places in the world from remote seemingly pristine Wilderness where their habitat is Protected not destroyed or cut into pieces field biologist Martha Crump of Northern Arizona University first visited the rain forest preserve above Monteverde Costa Rica in 1979 there she heard about the golden toad. The golden toads voice wasn't much but it's story read like a fairytale. It lived only in the high mountains among stunted tropical trees in a place called an Elfin cloud forest the toad appeared for just a week or so every spring in the rainy season to breed and little puddles among the gnarled tree roots than every year it vanished back underground till the next spring monteverdi was the only place in the world. The golden toad was known Crump first saw the animals in 1987 NFR area of the reserve. At one point we rounded a bend it was the most incredible sight that I think I've ever seen. It's a field biologist. There must have been a hundred male golden to the sitting in the mud on the ground looking like a statute. They were just brilliant gold and orange just sitting there like a statue Trump was captivated by the time that year. She saw more than fifteen hundred of them during their short breeding season till they all disappeared underground again Crump decided to come back to Costa Rica the next year to study the Toads further, but when she did the golden toads were gone. So she tried again the next spring in 1989. I started off the trip being optimistic thinking well, maybe 1988 was just a bad year, maybe the toads for whatever reason stayed underground and just skipped breeding season that certainly happens within phibians. We Again, went up and searched all day everyday day after day and the Toads just didn't come out. We did see one individual that year 1989 would be the last year Crump or anyone else ever saw a golden toad biologists and others have searched for it every year since but the animal is now believed to be extinct. No one knew why the Toads died Crump worried. She had caused the deaths herself perhaps by bringing in a disease, but later that same year. She went to a worldwide meeting of amphibian biologist and there she heard story after Story Each oddly similar to hers scientists who had once studied thriving populations and remote Mountain sites in California reported being unable to find a single animal others told of frogs disappearing from the highlands of Brazil biologist from Australia. Remember the Disappearance a few years earlier of a curious and newly discovered species there at first some scientists were skeptical that such anecdotes really represented anything new or were part of a worldwide pattern but University of California researcher David wake says the client's documented since that first meeting have eliminated such doubts around the world. There are some instances of really stunning declines in disappearances. These are highly unexpected highly unanticipated events that are leading to not just the clients of of amphibian populations, but to extinctions of species scientists trying to explain these Global disappearances have look for some Global cause they considered higher than normal levels of ultraviolet light seeping through the Earth's thinning ozone layer global warming and pollution carried by winds and rain now various Studies have Declines in specific places to one or more of these causes but culprits that fit one case don't always work for others frog eggs in the mountains of Oregon are being killed by ultraviolet light, but that can't be what happened to the golden toad, since it lived its whole life in Deep Forest shade Again, David wake will remain in the background as contributors to the decline. But I think it's also fair to say that we don't think that there is a single unifying cause for the decline wake says many scientists are beginning to suspect another more unsettling explanation that stress caused by the overall environmental degradation of the natural world is weakening frogs. So that many different causes can pick them off and that says Wake is a message human Should pay attention to use organisms as surrogates for humans. We don't do experiments on humans. We try to read from other organisms something about what's going on in the world and interpret it to our own ends. What is happening with amphibians? I think that's particularly important because they are vertebrates that we're not talking about bacteria or fruit flies something like that were talking about Kim and well frogs are similar to us in many ways. They are also especially sensitive to environmental pollutants that may someday affect humans are moist and they're essentially exposed to the air as if our lungs were drawn over the outside of our bodies though, you might expect that they would they would feel these stresses of the Moon reflect these dresses earlier on the other hand. These are very, Ancient organisms. They've been here for far longer than mammals and very very much longer than than primates and the Inhumans and if they are checking out now, I think it's a responsibility of of all of us as biologists and us as Citizens to try to understand why it's difficult to know much less prove that the vanishing frogs is a sign that the web of life that sustains them is slowly unraveling but we do know it's the same wind that sustains us all. By the way, the call of the now-extinct golden toad was provided by the Cornell library of natural sounds and Ithaca New York, you're listening to a special report on the unexpected and unexplained disappearance of frogs and toads around the world later. This hour will be talking with Ron hyre of the Smithsonian institution. But right now we rejoin Mary lawyer as she joins a biologist searching the Panamanian rainforest where some new clues in the mystery of the vanishing frogs, The stream at Fortuna in the mountains of Western Panama flows through tall trees grape with moss and Hanging Vine with Gardens of orchids in their top branches jaguars live here and Brilliant Blue butterflies, the size of small birds pink flowers drop from cops and float in the clear pool. But to amphibian biologist Karen Lips This scene is strangely and we should right now be listening to hundreds and hundreds of little love Cole estate. This is little tiny brown frogs with racing stripes that chatter away like little tiny birds in the in the forest. There should be Harlequin frogs bounding about on the on the shoreline here. We should be able to pick him up and make him make little calls and there's nothing so even though it looks wonderful. You know, it looks like this beautiful Upland old-growth cloudforest. Something's the matter to her trained biologist. I it's like a crime scene. After police have carried away the bodies last year. She found dead and dying frogs here day after day many different species all looking as though they had been struck dead at once. Tell them look really life. Like they're still sort of sitting there as if they had come out the night before 2 to do their mating ritual and should have just fallen asleep or Frozen in place because you go up to him and grab them that they would be dead or dying prompts are food for so many predators that a biologist can spend a lifetime in the field and see only one or two dead frogs. So many all at once was an unprecedented fine come out day after day after day and find more and more dead frogs have so many species and have no obvious trauma to their bodies. I mean only thing we could think of was there was probably some sort of of disease. At night she walks the Panamanian streams with a Minor's like documenting the few frogs pieces that are left. You can see how quiet it is only here a couple crickets chirping every so often you can hear Luther dactylis would call me a pink frog goes pink pink. What about in the background there in the darkness the light plays along the rocks and pools and search the leaves of overhanging plants The Nightlife of the rainforest is suddenly illuminated a giant insect with waving and tenny the snake swallowing a lizard, but there are no frogs then she hears a distinctive call. You're that high-pitched double no call to see if he's here and if we turn off the lights will probably start calling again what she hears is a glass frog they get that name from their skin. So transparent you can see through it all the way to their greenbone lips used to find them everywhere shimmering green each frog chirping from the same Leaf night after night. We listen for a long time to all the night voices, but the glass frog does not call again lips gets out her notebook and write down the spot and our of the loan call her soul entry. So far this night. I think to the other night. We had to sit in the same particular spot. I actually saw a pair of glass frogs they were mating. So normally we would catch them and try and you know, see if we could look for this disease organism or never but since it was a male and a female and they may be the last hopes for the that particular species. We decide to let them Are eggs in peace, we just wrote down as they were here what time it was and then moved on the sun mysterious disappearances lips is documenting at Fortuna in Panama have happened before in other mountain ranges around the world certain species of frogs have utterly vanished from higher elevations in the Western United States South America and Australia scientists suspect a disease, but they were never able to prove it. Now for the first time they found a culprit a disease organism. They believe caused the deaths in Panama, very strange fungus like creature fungus-like organism middle and what it does is simply so provide the epidermis the outer layer of the skin at the frogs Camp respire. They can't can exchange oxygen or water moisture for that matter through the skin George Rabbids director of the Brookfield Zoo in Chicago. When one of the leaders in the worldwide effort to solve the declining frog mystery, he says Australian scientists have found the same odd fungus in dead frogs collected in Mountain rainforest in Australia the declines in Panama and elsewhere appear to be moving in a wave through the mountains. But if a wave-like pattern of disease is indeed responsible for the mysterious deaths of frogs in pristine places around the world RAB says the next question is why these things have been around for hundreds of millions of years supposed to frogs and and the stranger organism less fungus-like organism. What is changed in the environment that suddenly makes the frogs with your instead of notable survivors on on the planet and what is changed out there in the environment that suddenly the these creatures are susceptible many researchers suspect frogs are becoming stressed by worldwide and Vine. Mental problems like pollution global warming or higher than normal levels of UV light coming through the Earth thinning ozone layer. It's possible. That's why they may be succumbing to diseases. Now this summer Karen lips and other researchers will return to Panama. They'll take air and water samples and test for pesticides heavy metals and other contaminants that could be carried by the winds and rain fell study beside it Fortuna where lips first found the dead frogs and another Mountain rain for a site called Alco pay if it is these wave is moving Eastward through the mountains. It will hit alcohol pee in a couple of years. For now, the fog is a Telco pay seem secure in their Mountain Sanctuary the little brown frogs with a racing stripes the ones that have banished from Fortuna same here all day long the white vocal sacs on their tiny throats bulging in and out like lights blinking. You can walk up this stream and find hundreds of species of frog including a beautiful rare one called the Golden Frog not to be confused with a now extinct golden toad golden frogs hear through their skins and communicate with each other by waving their front feet these frogs, of course have no idea what's in store for them. But for a human Observer, it's hard to look at this dream knowing that in a few years it to maybe empty. You're listening to a special report on the worldwide mystery of the disappearing frogs and toads here in Minnesota. Of course, and number of deformed frogs have been found adding new urgency to the mystery of the vanishing amphibians appear again is Minnesota public radio's Mary Lozier around the world frogs are disappearing four reasons scientists don't understand now that mystery has a new twist the deformed frogs first reported in Minnesota in 1995 and later from many other states in a darkened lecture hall at the Milwaukee Public Museum amphibian biologist from across the Midwest have gathered for a scientific meeting Tom Johnson of the Missouri Department of Conservation is showing slides of grotesquely deformed frogs to extra hind limbs over this very young bullfrog the right eye is missing in this young dwarf American toad from Christian County witches in Southwest, Missouri. There have been isolated reports of frog deformities for many years but University of Minnesota amphibian biologist David Hoppe is convinced what's happening now is different from anything in the past before 1995. He had spent decades studying Minnesota frogs and had never seen deformity rates comprable to what he now shows the scientist my data from 19619 97 from a site where 85% of the green frogs are malformed make frogs have been above 50% for 2 years. Now northern leopard frogs above 10% for 3 years at that site and we see him to Lester to be and then some other species thousands of Minnesota Museum specimens and found only a narrow range of deformities in a small percentage of the frogs the deformities. He now sees routinely where absent from the museum collections. He tells the scientist the deformed frogs Maybe. Indication that something has changed in the environment if that's so it will not be the first time Wildlife species have acted as environmental Sentinels the story of peregrine falcons bald eagles and DDT is a famous example. App top of an office tower in downtown st. Paul amid. The din of the buildings are handling system a plywood box sits on a Ledge inside is a nest with for newly hatched peregrine falcon, and they're fierce wild-looking mother the standard full clutch many pairs only Race 3. So she's doing very well biologist Harrison toward off now retired from the University of Minnesota spent a good part of his career bringing peregrine falcons back to the Midwest after they weren't nearly wiped out by the now banned pesticide DDT when toward off first began reading newspaper reports of the deformed frogs. He was reminded immediately of the plight of a peregrine falcons in the 1950s the birds simply stopped reproducing no one knew why like the case of the deformed frogs. It was an environmental mystery. And discovered that in fact, even though they laid eggs, the eggs never hatched and it was really a good many years before people realize that it was population-wide. It would just appear here in a pair of there. There was failing to reproduce but we all the paragons in eastern North America then also in other parts of the world were having reproductive problems discovered DDT was thinning the egg shells of Falcons and also bald eagle. The thinning egg shells were a warning sign the tip-off that alerted scientists and the public that DDT was building up in the environment and spreading throughout the natural world toward off. So the scientists today are right to be concerned that like the Falcons the deformed frogs are a warning letters. I think we need to we need to pinpoint what's going on still don't know what's causing the deformities as the investigation goes on one scary scenario has been getting a Increasing amount of attention the possibility that a waterborne chemical is acting as a hormone mimic hormone mimics are chemicals that disrupt the body's normal function by acting like hormones. There is growing evidence that man-made chemicals are disrupting the hormone systems of wildlife Gary ankley is a toxicologist with the Environmental Protection Agency laboratory in Duluth. He says male fish and some stretches of the Mississippi are exhibiting signs of feminization that may come from effluence that mimic estrogen in Lake Ontario lake trout, which ones made up a thriving commercial fishery are now failing to reproduce and Angela says scientists are starting to realize why quite likely what was causing those fish not to reproduce was related to tcdd or dioxin as it's commonly called affecting actually early. Survival of the fish. So any fish that were there that reproduce had embryos that just didn't live very long has caused by pcbs and Florida alligators whose hormone systems were disrupted by a chemical spill environmentalists worried that if hormone mimics are affecting animals. They may also be harming humans. They fear declining sperm counts worldwide and increases in breast cancer may be linked to hormone mimics developmental biologist David Gardner of the University of California at Irvine says, although that's still not clear. It's highly possible something that disrupts animal hormones could also affect ours because the hormone systems of humans and animals are essentially the same. And so we all share that you know, Common signaling Pathways and and certainly when you look at the other kinds of hormones that we have the control develop in our bodies are distinguished does hormone secretin hormone in the deformed frogs are the latest addition to the list of wildlife species whose systems have been disrupted by a hormone mimics. He think so because what scientists are finding and wild frogs is nearly identical to deformities that can be induced in laboratory Animals by disrupting their hormones with a chemical called retinoic acid Gardner and his colleagues suspect something in the water of the pond where the frogs live is acting like retinoic acid, although their hypothesis is far from proven, even the possibility of a retinoic acid mimic loosen the environment in quantities sufficient to deform Wildlife is alarming Gardner says we are Already know how seriously retinoic acid can disrupt the development of laboratory animals, even though we don't know what that means for humans to fix a brake noise on learning and memory in young children. But at the same time, you know, if we're exposing ourselves to do things and we are actually doing that experiment whether we like it or not acting like retinoic acid is indeed loose in the environment and causing the Frog deformities. It may be difficult to find out what that specific chemical is one of the few known retinoic acid mimics found outside. The lab is the insecticide methoprene, which is used to kill mosquitoes in wetlands in the Twin Cities and other places and for Pest Control in dairy cattle. No one knows how many of the tens of thousands of other pesticides on the market and their breakdown products may also be retinoic acid mimics little is known about how retinoic acid mimics act in the environment and it may be that what scientist like Gardner are looking for is not just one chemical but a complex interaction of chemicals. The deformed frogs are a complicated riddle like the larger mystery of the worldwide decline of frogs researcher David wake of the University of California at Berkeley says in the world under increasing environmental stress problems. Like the plight of frogs are unlikely to have single simple explanations environmental biology. And this is the kind of story we're going to face increasingly in the future very complicated explanations explanations that have there may be many many explanations. Not one in the days when DDT was thinning eggshells scientists were able to identify a single persistent pesticide as the cause of The Disappearance of the peregrine falcons frogs with their permeable skin, and watery lives are ideally suited to detect today's more complex problems, but their warning comes in a code. I have not yet broken. I'm Mary Lozier, Minnesota Public Radio. You're listening to a special report on Vanishing amphibians and what that what that's two mystery means for all of us joining us not to discuss some of the issues raised in marriage reports and to take some of your questions is Ron higher who is curator of amphibians and reptiles at the smithsonian's national museum of natural history. He is also the chair of the declining amphibian populations task force dryer. Thank you for joining us this afternoon setting aside for a moment. Some of the specific issues having to do with frogs toads amphibians. Is this does this sound to you like a real threat long-term threat to humans. I have some sort of impact on humans down the line. If in fact it isn't having an effect that we just aren't aware of yet. So it's not just a question of some people doing the chicken little bit know the task force was very sensitive to that at the when it first got up and running back in December of 1990 because several of our colleagues were concerned that maybe we didn't have the the Frog story down correctly yet that you know, we might be jumping the gun on that front circle of the amphibian biologists are of one voice mail with concern about what's happening. And I think you will get a a variety of opinions on whether there is a direct link to human health at this point or not. Just because we haven't done these appropriate studies or have those kinds of data, but there is I think it was Dave awake pointed out in the previous clips. We don't have a luxury really trying to wait for those data. We need to find out what's going on with the amphibians to see whether there is something that we can turn around for our own health as well. As theirs. Do you think in your heart of hearts? There is one cause for The Disappearance of the frogs and the deformities that we found in the frogs. That's a tough question. But let me try answering it and sort of a oblique fashion here. Just last week on Thursday and Friday. There was a workshop sponsored at National Science Foundation. What's brought amphibian experts together with Some representatives from federal agencies that represent a different kinds of extra keys and also brought in some experts in fields that we should be having involved in an understanding what's going on with in phibian such as immunology and ecotoxicology and the message came through very clearly. There is be single uniting factor involved in both of these declines of the deformities is stress. Something is stress amphibians worldwide and it pops up in different places in different ways. And I think that there is also a affair consensus that Those stressors are not the same things and they're probably is not just one stressor as David wake also pointed out. I was going to say because if I think it's often assumed I suppose by lay people that well, obviously this would be the result of something that man is doing and that may be true but on the other hand, it seems like a lot of these frogs are disappearing from areas where they're virtually no humans are correct and somehow impacting those environments that don't have yet a visible impact as far as you know looking at the reason that the other plants that are there everything seems to be fine, but they the fox and some of those areas are telling us that we have done something to that environment. Ron hyre is with us curator of amphibians and reptiles at the smithsonian's national museum of natural history were talking to sour about the special report that we just concluded on the disappearing and deformed frogs around the world. If you'd like to join our conversation, if it got a question or comment for a master higher give us a call Twin City area number is 227-6002. 276 Thousand Oaks at the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 800-242-2828 David go ahead place. Should I quit fertilizing my lawn? Should I drive my car less? Should I buy organic items at the grocery store? Then I'll just what do you think the average person can do so I write to my congressman. Turn off that sort of thing. That's a really good question. And I wish I could give a really good answer to that. I think that the kinds of things that you mentioned are are well, you know, we should be doing anyway, and I will certainly help the general environmental situation and should help with the The Fog situation in particular. Unfortunately at this point, we don't have enough research data to indicate really what specific factors are causing these problems at specific areas to know what specific actions we could be taken to turn the situation around but I think anything that we can do to help improve the the environment particularly and I think the take-home message sooner or later if we want to live in a world that includes biodiversity is at the level of it occurs today me as humans. Have to change our behaviors. Do you get the sense massage hire that scientists outside of your field and politicians outside the field of science altogether. Are they taking this? Seriously? I'm encouraged by recent signals that tell that we're making some inroads there. I think that's one of the problems that we had the task force is clearly and I've been trying to get this message out to the general public and and other communities the rest of our research Community as well and we haven't been particularly successful in that I think one reason as we really couldn't go forward really trying to get this message across until amphibian biologist would agree that there is definitely a problem and kind of one turning point that I would point. It was a year ago last August at the World Congress of herpetology, which is kind of interesting because married The first Club she talked about the First World Congress of herpetology. This was a third one held in park and there was a resolution passed at that Congress indicating that they read that there was a problem and committed the task force for its activities and encouraged us to continue. So I take that as a very strong sign the phibian biologists are completely in agreement on this issue now and that we can really move forward. I don't think that we've been particularly successful in getting the message Beyond amphibian biologist what some individuals have been Working to try and get the greater government attention to this problem and they're their world series of two briefings one of them for secretary rabbits benefit and then he requested a second briefing to bring him a bunch of the other Federal agency heads to listen to this problem and many of them were in attendance at the National Science Foundation workshop last week and essentially they are waiting to like to get some ideas of what the research agenda should be to deal with this problem. They now recognize that it is a problem but it is going to take a multidisciplinary approach that involves many different scientific discipline cross traditional borders, which of course is a funding challenge within the federal system and they are prepared to try and deal with that and I think So we now have the attention of certain certainly one very important group within the federal government. And I think once they start articulating message themselves that will felt a defuse this problem greatly Ted your question for on higher. Do you know if there is a lot of discovery of new species in the amphibians that would help verifying strengthen the observation that the existing species are declining in numbers. We really don't have the the data right I think to to answer that point that we are still in. This is far as understanding what the diversity of the world's amphibians are and there's probably right now somewhere between 4040 700 species of frogs have been described and 450 or so species of salamanders. And I think it's less than 200 species of Sicilian butcher off in the group of amphibians like no one knows about Still many new species that are being described. And certainly I think it's very clear that some of them will disappear before a scientist are able to find out about them to to learn about them. If a person were apparently too concerned with overall biodiversity didn't care much about one kind of frog versus another are there. Is it conceivable that well there enough we're finding enough new kinds of frogs that if you mess with it some disappear. It's just not that big a deal. Because what you're talkin about her impacts in the local ecosystems and other frogs just don't come in or these frogs have disappeared from the whole environment has changed. There's no and most amphibians have lead very localized. There's very little movement gene flow among populations. And of course their habitats has been chopped up all over the place. So of Princeton Street Florence would have been lost at Monteverde and forms would have been lost in the streams of Karen what's has worked in Oxford to repopulate those areas what's lost is lost for good at this point which has a impact and we don't know the magnitude of it in those locally. Searchlight amphibians are major Predators on insects and in turn a service food for a variety of organisms. And so there's going to be some sort of impact. We just don't know what the magnitude of that's going to be chilly or question place. Going back to the Costa Rican golden frogs or the researcher sure that that's really a man-made problem. Maybe it's something that nature intended as it's something to do with migration of the Frog. Maybe it's weather conditions are at the cyclical thing that the frogs just go there a certain time of maybe every 5 years or the phone number of the hat and I'll hang up and listen to your response really convinced than this place with her and and that particular example, but something very different has happened and Alan Townsend factor with colleagues published an article was last year in conservation biology set out as a role model hypothesis that what happened at Monteverde is as can be accounted for by normal but very unusual climatic events, and certainly the the decline in 19 87 coincided with an El Nino event and horses are cyclical and would put some sort of stress on the population needs his article clearly demonstrates, but whatever happened at Monteverde and not be accounted for by unusual climatic events. Something else was happening and it probably was in combination with the stress that it came from that building your cycle which at Monteverde results and dryer Seasons throughout the year as experienced by the frogs. So that not only are there breeding sites dry until they can't breathe that particular here, but their actual foraging is probably put it stress just because of the lower humidity and and saw the frogs themselves Orchestra. And the one of the critical thing says the environmental conditions would have been essentially perfect up through this last El Nino cycle since 1988, and there have been no golden toad, sir. Scott your question place and I have a question along with all the data compiled on entertainment Inhibitors pesticides on the environment population stressors environmental stressors. Is it possible and has any research been done on the effects of ozone depletion on animals as sensitive as in phibians and I'll hang up and Listen to rap to thank you. In fact Andy Blaustein follow that lead up very early on when he was trying to understand what happened to the Cascades for getting an Oregon where he noticed that the populations were declining and he couldn't figure out any reason and figured. Well, we know that the ozone layer has been sending these frogs were trying elevations for they should be exposed to Greater UV and he has shown experimental e that are circling for the Cascades frog being baby a factor particularly it interacts and there's a synergistic in a bad sense. Interaction between UVB and supper wake me up, which is a parasitic fungus. And the two of those acting is apparently the UVB are we can see Eric so that they are open to attack by the fungus which kills the the eggs and he reported at the NSF meeting. If there is a third interactive effect also a significant with both of those other factors in that certain kinds of pesticides. I think that UVB can explain certain species disappearances, but these these are things that live in high latitudes higher elevations are things that basket during the daylight to thermoregulate and where the Warby and eggs are in shallow water certain species of amphibians. Nocturnal and activities so they wouldn't be exposed to UV beads and certainly something like the golden sword as was pointed out and various presentation. I should have been shielded throughout its life cycle from UVB because of the canopy that they're under is it possible that each area there is one big factor may be an ozone depletion or whatever and that the taken together the fat that's at work here the whole the whole environment of the earth is getting goofed up to the rooftops highly scientific term. Of course, we don't have the data to to say whether there's just a single overriding factor that may be different from place to place. We just don't know at this point Tony your question. Are you good? I just wanted to come in and Mary Lozier also on the great program that she's put together and the great waited NPR has followed up on this story and I just got Who sings want to comment to a collar that called in earlier on asking about what he could do and we do have a 1-800 number where people can report frog deformities. We have worked with the Minnesota Pollution Control agency here to pass on reports to them and we are involved in a major education component. We've developed posters and frog call identification tips and Salon from Minnesota. My question to you run is what do you think are or do you think that the scientists are happy to have you have people in this and do you think that the science scientific Community will look for more of it? And I'd appreciate your answer on that. I think that the basic answer is yes. I think the temperature be in Viola just realized that. They can't pull everything off themselves. They're going to need support from lots of different areas and and support from the general public as well. Of course individual find us or are also very hesitant about you know, you've got to have really hard those data and and they're not sure if someone from some other discipline can really provide it the way that it needs to be provided or they might go out on a limb before their assigned us is ready to so they'll probably be some hesitation but I think in general most of the people that I'm aware that are really concerned about the sign that said it really concerned about the amphibian decline problem want to get as much involvement from as many people as possible. Back to the phones Adele's on the line from Rochester. Go ahead sir. Also, Mary and NPR for the articles. I like to ask your guests about the something I stumbled on on the internet. So I can't even remember how something called the Frog log which I guess is a newsletter that that tracks your investigations into what's happening with the Frog populations. Unfortunately, it's got a long complicated clumsy web address. So I guess if someone wants to find it they could just use their search engine and find it look for a frog log frog log and I have been pulled over at that. You don't have to go through that also wrong address and and his frog loved one word not two words and and you can pop it up pretty easily. Sole links to the web page that we have and and other links as well. So I would encourage people to do that if people want hard copies of it that information is also available and we send that the hard copies out on request. We really want to try and get the message out declining amphibian populations task force, correct and let me remind me before we ring off to get an address for me for people if they want to write to you directly for that information. Do you have the address? Probably not. Well, we'll get it in then pass it on to people if they're interested later. Let's go back to the phone so Steve. Yes, I say John eye doctor. I might have two questions. First one is I know there's a lot of studies being done. You know from what I've heard on in the paper in heard from NPR about the birth defects and deformities that are happening here in Minnesota are biologists here in Minnesota or in the midwest studying the true Extinction of amphibians here in Minnesota. Do you know they're there is a regional task force group that includes Minnesota, and I know that they've been looking at the population status there and in fact, I've got a Book that's in manuscript form and I would suggest that you contact one of the the task force people in your region Gary Kasper as probably a person to contact he is at the Milwaukee Public Museum. Okay, I'm studying such as yourself also studying the lots of other types of amphibians such a salamanders. I know he just personal note, you know, I grew up with salamanders all the time. And now I can't find even so much does one to show my boys. We are concerned about the salamanders as well as the the frogs and toads. I think it there hasn't been as much work done on them as of yet just because they're essentially there fewer kinds of them and then frogs and toads time for one more quick question here Kristen. I like that and a staunch environment was four years and I remember even getting us in biology cuz I didn't want to cut frogs. But the reason I'm calling is because I think that you know, when you're talking about sending of the eggs or or pesticides and things like that, you know, we may not have evidence for a certain species but we certainly have evidence that has two sides of cause a lot of damage in the environment since and you know, if they sending the eggs in there going to be affecting the bugs that the pesticides are targeting in the frogs eat the bugs and what we're doing on an ecological scaleless is way out of context. We're producing too much beef and I appreciate the being able to participate this afternoon and then we'll all work together to get at the root of this problem and and Hopefully enjoying amphibians for a long time. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it more Chinle. We're out of time here. Ron higher who's curator of amphibians and reptiles at the smithsonian's national museum of natural history. He is also the chair of the declining and phibian populations task force. Looking today on our midday program at the unusual mystery of The Disappearance of frogs around the world and the deformities found in frogs, especially here in our area. Do you miss part of the special report from Mary Lozier? If you missed part of our conversation the second half of the hour will be broadcasting this program at 9 tonight here on Minnesota Public Radio funding for our series of the worldwide Vanishing of frogs was provided by the listeners in Minnesota Public Radio and by a grant from Society of environmental journalists. I'm Gary eichten. Thanks for tuning in the back. I'm Lorna Benson this weekend the dfl will endorse a candidate for governor on the next All Things Considered will look at what the endorsement is worth to a candidate. It's all things considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio k n o w FM 91.1 you're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. We have a sunny Sky now 56° at Cana W FM 91.1 Minneapolis. And st. Paul Seneca partly sunny and cool through the afternoon high in the mid 50's partly cloudy and pretty cold tonight with a low in the mid to upper 30s partly cloudy tomorrow with a high back into the upper 50s.