Thank you Gratis. Six minutes past 11 programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Dayton's oriental rug departments in downtown Minneapolis, Saint Paul and at the Southdale Brookdale and Rosedale home stores. And good morning. This is midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary I can well as you heard a last minute effort is underway this morning to try to head off major antitrust lawsuits against Microsoft the world's leading computer software manufacturer the federal government and at least 18 States including the state of Minnesota have accused Microsoft of using its immense Marketplace power to drive its Rivals out of business. Microsoft says the lawsuit if it's successful would severely undermined its ability to add new features. Do it systems hurt the industry and hurt consumers as well have fun into reports out of Washington Microsoft is offered to to make what's being described as major concessions to head off the lawsuit the concessions would reportedly give computer makers more freedom to control what consumers see when they first start up their computers and replace the Microsoft products such as Microsoft Internet browser with products made. My other companies Microsoft today announced that it will delay shipping out its new Windows 98 system, which was scheduled to be shipped tomorrow because of these ongoing negotiations threatened lawsuits would represent the largest such antitrust case since at least 1984 when the government Force the breakup of AT&T in this hour we're going to take a closer look at the Federal and State Challenge to Microsoft joining us this morning from California is Minnesota public radio's John Gordon, the host of our future tense program. Also with us from Houston is one of John's regular guests white Silverman a computer columnist with the Houston Chronicle and we invite you to join our conversation as well. If you have a question or comment about this Microsoft case, give us a call or Twin City area number is 227-6002. 276 Thousand Oaks side the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free at 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or 1 800. 42282 it now before we get started with our conversation. We should note that some Economist are questioning the very idea that traditional industrial-style antitrust law applies to this world of high-tech. And with that part of the story here is national public radio's John mcchesney at the heart of this new description of Monopoly is the idea that one person's decision to buy a product is influenced by the number of other people already using that product. It's called a network effect. For example, the more people that have fax machines the more valuable a fax machine but comes to Future purchases because they can communicate with more people but Communications also require standards and compatibility networks require machines that can talk to one another without producing gibberish. So in the high-tech world, there's a natural gravitation toward products like Microsoft Windows that offer compatibility and standards Steven Margolis teaches economics at North Carolina State. Wherever you set a standard or wherever compatibility becomes an issue, we are likely to have single form Solutions. So A single standard or a single technology and in some cases that will mean monopolies for the firm's the inventor articulate their standards and Technology industry standard can become a monopoly and the larger than that were joined by that product the more valuable that product is doing individual user Microsoft's dominance of the computer operating system is sometimes described as such a monopoly Margolis says that the theory is similar to the older theory of so-called natural monopolies where cost fall at the firm gets larger utilities have been considered natural monopolies and have traditionally been regulated by the state. But this whole concept of natural monopoly is breaking down as the telephone and Electric utilities are deregulated Margolis worry, is that applying A natural monopoly Siri to the high-tech world could lead to more regulation or standard again compatibility is beneficial to Consumers and then we turn around cuz you next up or where she at so you're not allowed to take any further steps. Then we're going to have a serious effect of arresting the development of Technology doesn't feel that the government should intervene against Microsoft in any case but his bigger fear is that if this new notion of Monopoly is used against Microsoft, it could then be extended to many companies one like Hewlett-Packard for example, which is established a strong position in setting the standards for the computer printer market and Rick rule a Microsoft consultant and a former head of the antitrust division at the Justice Department's insist that Microsoft dominance of the Scooter operating system Market isn't a monopoly no matter how you define it. That in a network industry like Computing the people do try to settle on and establish standard, but what's important is tickling a market where technology is changing as rapidly as it is in Computing that standard is constantly undergoing changed and if Microsoft doesn't constantly bring, you know, the new technologies to Market and ensure that that standard allows those in the market to use those technologies that frankly somebody else will come up with the new standard Microsoft chairman. Bill Gates is fond of saying that Microsoft dominance of the software world is always tenuous and Microsoft doesn't accept the designation of Monopoly the company believes. It should be allowed to incorporate new technologies like an internet browser into its Windows operating system without any government interference needless to say Microsoft opponents and competitors disagree with that interpretation. It's not clear at this point whether the Will rely on the new idea of Monopoly and its effort against Microsoft and some of Microsoft's opponents don't believe that any new theories are necessary anyway, because Microsoft has simply violated the Sherman Antitrust Act by using its Monopoly to illegally Crush its competitors. They say that bundling Microsoft Internet browser with the Windows operating system. For example is designed to wipe out rival Netscape rather than improve the system for consumers. John mcchesney. NPR news will joining us now in Minnesota Public Radio future tense host John Gordon and Houston Chronicle computer columnist Dwight Silverman, and again, if you'd like to join our conversation this morning about the Microsoft case, just call to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand if you're calling us from outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 John you are great and Dwight. You're with us from Houston first of all housing. Do you suppose it is that Microsoft has announced this morning that it's going to delay shipping its Windows 98 product. Now they say they're still going to be making it available to Consumers at the end of June. But at least the initial Shipment has been delayed Bulgaria certainly means that Microsoft is showing a bit of flexibility and for the past couple of months, they've got made awfully strong statements that any interference from the government would I threaten them and threaten the economy as a whole it so it could possibly means that the Microsoft didn't quite believe that as as much as it said it believed that so, you know, it looks like I was some kind of change is possible from the Microsoft up respective fix computer if they end up on Monday versus Friday. Well, I'm not sure how many of them are going to be working over the weekend to to slap it on machines as fast as possible. So it's probably more of a gesture than anything else is this The case of big government vs. Big Business and business really have much impact on the average Joe and Jane. Well, I'm not sure that the government kind of agree to a certain extent with those people in the technology industry who say that the government doesn't quite understand the way the technology of the street works. There is the word clueless is often used and and I think that that it is a matter of of one type of culture clashing with another on the other hand Microsoft to put it to put it frankly has been a jerk and its business practices. But at the same time there are benefits to the way they've gone about doing what they do though, the piece before hand mentioned the idea of of with you if you have a lot of people all using the same operating system and a computer can talk to each other much better. It's it's a lot easier to let them do that. So there are certain benefits to having a critical mass at for an operating system to get there a Microsoft his Darien Lake and that's the question, you know Izzy this Clash of cultures which you know, will this new paradigm that the that the computer industry has went out or or will they have the old ways of doing things of the government went out on what you're reading? My reading is that these issues do actually you don't have a great deal of effect on the everyday lives of up with people like you and me, you know, there's there's a as as Dwight suggested. It's important for a lot of people to be able to have a standard and to walk from one computer to the next and be able to operate computers sort of wherever you go and and those people would say that Microsoft is developing a standard like I like the Windows operating system, which is used on you no more than 90% of the computers is actually a good thing. So, you know, if that's if that's going to change then you could certainly see how it would it would affect a lot of people I heard a speech a few weeks ago by the head of the sun Microsystems and he was claiming that his company is the only competitor left that Microsoft has no other competitor Jetro. Oh, I don't think so. I think that that just makes that that was that was grandstanding. I think Steve Jobs while he has gotten in bed with Microsoft to a certain extent would say they still compete with Microsoft and the various manufacturers of the Unix operating system. And those other people who make software for it. They still compete with Microsoft make Hardware that work with it. So I would have to say that he just grandstanding Netscape still has 60% of the browser market and so to suggest that you know, Microsoft is crushed that competitor and is taking over the internet browser businesses is is kind of silly Microsoft has wanted to try to control the online world with products like Microsoft network has it has not done too. Well, there it is a lost and you could even say crushed by by companies like America online. So I'd say that for all the businesses that Microsoft is in and Wants to be in there are plenty of competitors one last question for you guys before we get to our callers and that is why is it that Microsoft hasn't been more willing to allow computer makers to the modify their their window systems and and the rest of it. It seems like they would still be making a ton of dough certainly at least up through Windows 3.1. A lot of computer makers were putting front in the completely change the way windows work. For example, a Compaq would shipping a lot of computers in the Windows 3.1 arrow with a product called tab works that made a Windows 3.1 look like a cab notebook and there are products you can buy for Windows 95 that will change the way it looks there's a product called Norton Navigator no relation to Netscape Navigator that changes the way the desktop looks so. Sure, that that is necessarily a valid beef because you could change it. It will chance program. Also joining us from Houston to White Silverman computer columnist with the Houston Chronicle were talking this hour about the Microsoft case again, if you tuned in late to talk, so I have been underway this morning to try to head off a threatened lawsuit by the federal government and several States including the state of Minnesota against Microsoft. Those talks apparently are continuing. The lawsuit was scheduled to be announced at 11 our time. No announcement yet. But Microsoft meanwhile announced that it will delay shipping out its new Windows 98 system to computer computer makers while those talks continue. If you have a question or comment about this story, give us a call 227-6023 area number 2 to 7. 6000 outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 David go ahead place. My biggest concern is I'm a I'm a little guy. I'm caught in the middle of government and I'm caught in the middle big business and it seems as just about everywhere. We turn more more than has happened happening and I don't understand it's it's competitive granted Microsoft may be monopolizing or whatever but it's not affecting me. I mean it's doing what I wanted to do and it's costing what I wanted the cost even if the Costco a little higher I think that might be a trade-off if there are companies out there who can compete let him compete let him compete on the open market and SS fair is fair can be I don't think government needs to intervene. At the expense at the expense of the little guy here that a lot that are so the competitors are so good. Let him compete and that the government here is actually paying more attention to the competitors with little or no concern for the consumer. Yeah, there are you go ahead way, you know one of the interesting things that happened in the public relations flurry of all, this was Microsoft releasing a study indicated that the public did not going to want the government to come down and stop the release of Windows 98. And of course everybody passed it off as saying well, of course, you know that I say that that that that Microsoft but I think that a lot of people feel like Mike does does that there is a other there's a benefit to the way the market is operated so far things have gotten you don't have progressed. Well, why should the government step in and mess with it? And I think it's kind of goes back to that the old notion that the government has about what a monopoly is and how Monopoly works, Arkansas. Airsoft products and and many of those are very happy with the way they work and with the way they operate and they feel that Microsoft One fairly and in many of the software markets and that. And that's a mess with that is is unfair and started messing with their route everyday Computing lives here a lot from you know, whatever you are, right something positive about a Microsoft product or a windows-based computer. I always get a handful of emails from from McIntosh fans who complain the well I ought to be looking at the Mac because it's a better system in it if it's faster and so forth, but the bottom line is is that what Microsoft ultimately has done it is taken the dream that Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak Apple, they founded Apple and and have put a Computing available for the rest of us a Microsoft is the one who Look up the price of the operating system down work with Intel to can you send you asleep reduce the cost of computing by doing this open standard where anybody can build one? So, you know, there's a there is again there is this ongoing benefit. I think of the kind of thing that Microsoft is done in the process. I do got to say they've been jerks. Why so what have they done that falls into the jerk category? One of the most compact you had a situation where compact was looking to remove Internet Explorer the icon from the desktop not take it off the computer, but take it off the desktop and instead put Netscape Navigator icon on the desktop. There was a during Discovery. And in this case a document came to light in which a compact manager said that you've been threatened by Microsoft to Microsoft withdraw complex right to use Windows 95. That's an amazing thread and I think that that's kind of kind of things that Microsoft has done as time goes on by the way. We just got word out of Washington Lee justice department is now announced that it and the State Attorneys General who were Threatening to sue Microsoft have agreed to delay the filing of the lawsuits why all these settlement talks continue. So we'll keep you posted on that as more developments command me while we're talking with Dwight Silverman Peter columnist with the Houston Chronicle and our own Jon Gordon joins us from the San Francisco Bay Area John of course is the host of our future tense program talking about this one Microsoft case, you'd like to join our conversation to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities outside the Twin Cities one. 800-242-2828 Darrell your neck. Hi. Good morning gentlemen, good morning, Mike. My question is not a question as much as an observation is a longtime computer user and having been involved in software litigation when I lived in California what I found them was that the courts were totally ignorant when it came to talking about program codes and similarities and Technical aspects. And they had to rely totally on so-called experts who could be loaded one way or the other and the second prong of of my observation is if Microsoft obviously has and I think they do the superior product and they have developed this with their own technology and their own support. It sounds like a lot of sour grapes and the fact that I think that Bill Gates has in so much in the in the media because of his Is wealth is another Factor. How much does the role of Bill Gates the person play in this story? John John I want Bill Gates's up and he is it so it's strange a computer CEOs now have become like rockstars and away and and you know that they cultivate that to some extent and I think it's true that a lot of this sort of gets down to kind of a personal vendettas and in Gates versus versus other people and Scott mcnealy versus Bill Gates and things like that, but that but if you get beyond the personalities the issues are obviously quite real whether it was a Bill Gates running the company or someone else to certain extent is reflected in Microsoft's culture and he is he is very aggressive. He does not tolerate fools easily. He's very snide and sarcastic and when I talk about Microsoft acting like a corporate jerk, I think that that comes directly from the personality of the CEO. I think it's very easy for attorneys. The justice department for the attorney general who see his behaviors kind of thumbing its nose at the at the establishment observation that many of the experts the courts have called in and these cases have their own axe to grind. Oh that's true in any coming in anytime. You have a court case where you have to bring an expert's, you know, you always bringing the one who support your view. That's true or not. You're not in a criminal case as well as this, you know, what you're doing with DNA evidence that fence bring in one expert and someone else is bringing together and it doesn't mean the judge or the jury are experts in in how DNA works. So I think that's true at all court cases. I think the courts are getting more sophisticated on the computer and Technology issues though Gary it mean if you look at the Supreme Court in the way that they handled the communications decency act. There was lots of folks who said that the Supreme Court was, you know filled with people who knew very little about computers and couldn't get up to speed and we're not really capable of making the proper decision, but I think the Supreme Court. Got his hands around around that issue and I think in the current case with Microsoft that the judge Thomas Paine Field Jackson that has a to me anyway Case that do he knows the issues quite well, John your question. Yeah, my question is more like the lines of would like netscape.net Netscape Navigator know they seem to be the Monopoly in the market right now. It's like usually anybody's doing any serious work with a net is used in Netscape and they're making such a lot of noise about the Internet Explorer. It seems like it's just one Monopoly complaining about it now Microsoft you might infringe on their mark on Netscape has 60% of the market. That's not a monopoly Internet Explorer has about 30 to 35 and there actually are some other browsers out there. That's one point was pretty much the Monopoly when it first started out, but that's not the case now and it also needs to be pointed out that Microsoft that netscape's business is not all browsers that they don't make any money off the browser their business primarily comes from the software that businesses use to run intranets and that internet service providers used to run the Inn. That itself. It's also telling me that there are little browsers out there that are not from Netscape or not from Microsoft. They don't have a lot of market share, but the fact that a browser like the Opera browser can exist Opera is a little company in Norway and it's it's gotten a lot of attention. A lot of people say it's a lot better than the the blower. Where are the big fat programs from Microsoft or Netscape and it exists Microsoft didn't crush it. There was room for for that browser to come into the market and to find its way into people's hands only got something that's telling to that there that there is room apparently for competition and Innovation right now in even in the browser Market Dave, you're up next your question, please. Hey, one of the things when I hear about the Monopoly power of Microsoft, and they're talking about the fact that their hold is tenuous. They actually have a lot of history on Those of us that are old enough to remember does the calc it started out with spreadsheets. And then of course Lotus there was nobody who is ever going to challenge them wordstar work. Perfect. And even Microsoft itself when it is two broke up with IBM / OS to the Press was full of of rumors of the demise of Microsoft in the huge faux pas de Deux sticking with windows. So I think for sure they do some things that that are not that good. But if you look at it, they gave competitors a lot of warning in the early days their Office Products were developed in the Macintosh and in a lot of ways made the Mac what it was and When they came out with the early versions of Windows, which which really looked almost cartoonish, they told Lotus and they told Word Perfect in the other manufacturers, but they better start writing towards Windows because that was their Direction and they really thumb their nose at Microsoft Intel. It was too late for them and and show their arrogance that way so might my feeling is that Microsoft is in a vulnerable situation given the fact that the computer technology changes so rapidly and within two to three years people will be replacing their computers and if there's something different and better if some of the different artificial intelligence research shows up voice recognition, they could be in a world of hurt when Microsoft position is tenuous. What how does it behave when it sees threats to to its Stranglehold on on the software Market. I mean is it a lot of people would say the fact that it is so happy to buy its competitors out now it is is proof that that Microsoft is not in that tenuous of a position that if it can afford to use its power and to just by its competitors and to try to Yuna crush them in other ways or keep them out of the market then then it's position is not so tenuous and certainly other companies have had looked like monopolies in the past IBM and it and then have seen their market share. Wendal, but I personally don't see Microsoft's Stranglehold on the on the Windows operating system the operating system Market going away anytime soon. I'll do I feel the same way on that that that Windows is awfully entrenched when they kind of woke up and saw the internet happening. There's a famous memo that Bill Gates it out and when she said basically we almost missed it and now we're going to devote the entire company to it. That's when everything from Microsoft Encarta program to to Windows 95 and and and All became internet aware and and the obvious the obvious company that had brought the internet for their attention and was kind of out there kicking butt was Netscape. So the interesting thing about Microsoft it is this Behemoth, but it can move very very fast. It's like a heavyweight fighter who moves like a man of way. We're talking this hour about the threatened lawsuit that the federal government and several States including Minnesota have threatened to file against Microsoft charging Microsoft with violating. The antitrust laws talks are under way now to try to resolve that dispute before the lawsuits are actually filed an announcement had been scheduled for 11 our time this morning that announcement has been delayed as the talks continue joining us this hour to talk about this developing story. John Gordon Lee hosted Minnesota public radio's future tense program Dwight Silverman has joined us computer columnist with Houston Chronicle, if you'd like to join our conversation to 27 6000 to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 get to some more calls just a moment. It takes more than a good idea to start your own business. According to Robert Sullivan to take some planning information and most importantly the instincts of an entrepreneur. Hi, this is Bob Potter Sullivan is the author of the small business start-up guide, and he'll be my guest on sound money this weekend to take your calls sound Molly Saturday morning at and again Sunday afternoon at 5 on Minnesota Public Radio news 91.1 in the Twin Cities. Over the noon hour today. We're going off to a Saint Catherine Forum on women and Leadership sponsored by the College of Saint Katherine. Donna. Lopiano is in town. She is the executive director of the women's sports Foundation could be talking about the changing world of women in sport that's coming up over the noon hour. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include General Mills foundation and the Dayton Hudson foundation on behalf of Dayton's Mervyn's and Target stores for Arts and Cultural programming real summer like day across Minnesota today a good chance for some showers and thunder showers in northern Minnesota a higher humidity is all across the state and temperatures summer like as well high is ranging from the mid-70s in the north do near 90 in the South Twin City forecast, sunny warm and Breezy with a high temperature reaching the upper 80s right now in the Twin Cities. It's 80° and sunny in the Twin Cities talking about the Microsoft. Cases first hour of our midday program Dwight Silverman is jaundice from the Houston Chronicle in Houston, Texas. John. Gordon is jaundice from California to San Francisco Bay Area John. My course is the host of our future tense program. And Tim is on the line with a question or comment that Tim hello neighbor with their company of software. I work with a great deal of software and there is is the one that always locked up the computer. I have a lot of trouble with explore in the sense that It it screws up Netscape. It's almost as if something's written into the codes that they can't work hand-in-hand. Another comment about Microsoft is just there sure signs. They've come out with new standards at the working on the compactor high-speed modems in this is great, except it's going to cost Thirty to fifty bucks a pop every month to use them not in the old world, you know, 10-15 years ago two guys in the garage with to come up with an innovation. It would be great for everyone to come out a lot cheaper and it seems like nowadays those two guys are going to either get $1000000 for Microsoft cuz they're bought out or didn't get stuff done and we'll never get an ablation. I am curious on your comments on that. Okay. Well, a lot of people would say that the products that Microsoft produces are not as good as some of their competitors and there's millions of people who are completely devoted to their Apple Macintosh machines and said that platform is is much better in the end of the applications for the Macintosh are more elegant and I'm not a computer lab myself, but I've got both platforms and I actually have more trouble with the with a Macintosh freezing up and things like that. I don't think it's up perhaps capped up as much but you're right A lot of people think that Microsoft somehow has managed to become the dominant Force while having products that aren't as good as their competitors and how are they preventing a Novation from Innovative products from hitting the market? God's that's kind of the key question. I guess it do. I don't know how you feel about that and hardware and I see a lot of innovative things out there that aren't are coming from Microsoft if if if anybody has a scanner on their system, they ought to look at a product called PaperPort, which is a system for organizing documents and pictures you pull in through a home scanner. Microsoft doesn't have any scanner software for example of this is a very Innovative. It's easy to use and the Microsoft as far as I know. I had made a bid on visionnaire the company that makes it so I don't think that it's that's necessarily a blanket too much of a blanket condemnation of Microsoft. One thing on the issue of of Netscape not working with Windows 95. That's just not true. I use Netscape. How many flavors of it with I all kinds of computers on Windows 95 and I almost never have a problem. That's gave software can be quite buggy just as anybody else's can so if you're having problems, it may actually be never games for let me ask you this if Microsoft isn't keeping Innovative Products off the market if the government wins its lawsuit would that keep Innovative essentially slow down the computer industry in this country to the point where we'd lose our Edge. That's a really good question because how much do you want to the government which is not exactly Nimble to be setting computer standards and deciding for a company's what what what kind of products are are permissible and and what aren't and I think you know, most people would say that the government is probably not going to be very very good at that but then there's no other that would argue that the government is is mean I was not going to do that by spice stepping into at the marketplace. I just want to do it to guide it a little bit. So I think you could make make arguments. Both ways pretty easily Microsoft can continue to innovate and include new products and new capabilities in Windows. But again, it's it's how it behaves towards other companies and forces forces computer manufacturers to deal with windows. That is the real issue here, you know operating systems for a long time have included all kinds of capabilities the Unix operating system is loaded with internet friendly modules and programmed essentially the longtime the internet was run on YouTube and all of the eunuch Appliance have a whole bunch of pieces that interact with the internet, but you know, the government has a squeak about that. Yes, I agree. It seems to me what is happening to Microsoft is what people might as well as the what America has become we laugh at people as bad as it struggled to attend your dreams. And once they give everybody wants a piece of your hide, I think a real monopolies in my opinion the sun Microsystems and the Apple macintosh's who make the hardware the operating system and everything that runs on your computer. You can't have it any other way. You cannot buy a McIntosh Hardware from someone other than Apple and then go by the prison system to run on its Microsoft has done a lot of things to improve industry and bring us to where they are today. And I wonder if your guests may have a comment on where was the government when the IBM send the universe and the people that substantially kept the technology industry in the doldrums for many many decades. Delavan Well, I I mean, I I think that that I've been that the government was interested in and IBM's dominance at one point, but IBM sort of lost it on its own I think you know, I think that the government has always appeared to take an interest in at least some interest in in technology companies that become a Napoles but to say that Apple because it makes an all-in-one system where it manufactures the hardware and the software or machines from Sun Microsystems. I do that makes him a monopoly is is is not correct. I mean that you know Apple has never had a huge chunk of the market and it continues continues to dwindle a message to matter about consumer choice, but they certainly have cannot be accused of monopolistic practices and what they are also some kind of IBM historian who theorized that one of the reasons why IBM did not keep up and kind of lost its dominant was because it was engaged in this year's. Years of negotiation and I am working with the government trying to Stave off being broken up like AT&T and and then there was some concern at Microsoft that if they get into a protracted battle that takes up years that essentially they too will be dragged down and they're they're focused diluted Elliott your question and having watch Microsoft number of years do a lot of things right? And I guess the question is is it necessarily wrong for a company to be just better generally at everything strategically than everyone else should have company be punished for that should companies be punished for succeeding. Do I answer on how they succeed if they succeed by cheating? And it's up, you know, it's sometimes it's a matter of perception if they succeed by cheating and bullying the no I think there's something wrong there if they violate laws in order to succeed know there's something wrong there. The question the question is has Microsoft done that and and I and I just don't think we know yet and do they use their dominant position in one market to try to move into another market and then dominate that one based on the strength of of what they do in operating systems and there's so many people who say that's exactly what they're doing. What what makes it kind of a gray area is the software in a lot of cases, you know, it's very easy truck to overlap from one thing into another you look at the Microsoft Works, for example, which is kind of a stripped-down version of their office system those pieces probably the components of Microsoft Works word processor. Even more so than they do in Microsoft Office. Well, is that some kind of know what it is is that just a word processor or is that just a spreadsheet kind of this this conglomeration? Can I have a question opposed to talking about competitive practices or or all those things? I'm curious if just the nature of the product of a Explorer being a diamond player brings up issues of no controlling the nature and scope maybe even contents of what people can access through the minutes if it comes to Communications issue and then it would you know possibly bring up free speech issues or you know, the fact that like AT&T how to control over the Scope of how Communications could be accomplished today is that an issue here? So if what you're saying here is that Microsoft were successful for example in in really knocking out all of its competitors. They would be able to control not only the market but what the market offers the scope of what they can get, you know, not saying that they would you know cut anything off but possibly they would only be able to access certain information that would concern. Well, I think that's a lot of people would say that that's what's really behind this whole lotta antitrust question is if if Microsoft can control the medium Canada also control the message Can Can Microsoft buy it by dominating what people see when they turn on their their computers and if computers are sort of turning into information appliances then does Microsoft control on Caniff control what people are able to read on their computer if everyone has that the same operating system and and Microsoft strikes a contract with the Time magazine in the New York Times and and and some others for information and news delivery on on their desktop through their internet browser than does Microsoft in or will it have too much control over at what people are able to to to read them? What kind of information I can access on the internet and I know there are those that argue that that's what. Joe Klein and and others in the Justice Department are most concerned about when you start to clear away the smoke about about the browser and some other issues. Do I do think that's what Bill Gates wants to do. I stink. I think I have the nature of the internet itself prevent that from happening. The internet is a collection of Open Standards and the way people get to it if I wanted to and have the time and have the expertise I could sit down and write a little browser myself and all it would take is somebody who who have the expertise to do something a little bit better a little bit faster a little bit neater if Microsoft was the only one out there and if developers like it they would then begin developing content to go through there to the inner is kind of to open for one company control. So I I kind of think that that water may be a concern about using Internet Explorer as a filter does the structure of the internet might make that impossible Rodger your next go ahead place. I wonder what the difference was between I don't know too much about I'm sorry Rodger. Can you speak up we can hardly hear you? Still have to ask you to speak up. What's a Chevrolet and Ford you can interchange parts? Gangnam well, I think that there's you know, he he mentioned Ford Chrysler Chevrolet Toyota and Nissan and terms of people who make a computer software and operating system. You can't you can't name that many and you certainly can't name that many that have a big market share other than Microsoft I said earlier that apple is a competitor but it's a competitor with a market share about 4% at the moment and 90% share. So the issue is not the same because there is really one single dominant company. Give me a thumbnail sketch. I don't follow these things very closely at one time. Apple was to the outside or anyway, it was kind of the big cheese. How did they did they fall on hard times? Because Microsoft did something bad How did that is that? Is that kind of at the heart of this to the Microsoft platform the combination of the Microsoft operating system and the open anybody can build one PC is kind of what what ultimately did Apple in you know anybody because anybody can build them everybody is building IVM compatibles and that means there's a whole bunch of them out there. They compete on price manufacturers can Kim can reach a great economy of scale in in the parts that they make it to the price of keep coming down faster and faster, but what apple apple was the only and eventually when the software became as friendly as that I can talk and the price was much lower than the Macintosh eventually the For all intensive purposes was rendered irrelevant has stole their ideas for a it for the graphical user interface windows from from Apple and really kind of a copy to lot of their ideas and perhaps even though you know, I took some of their intellectual property along those lines, but still it from Xerox, but Apple's it right back, but you know, they did Microsoft Crush Apple II don't think so. I think that most people would agree that Apple sort of did itself in and hat had it proceeded properly and had it made its standards open a long time ago that we might be talking now about about an apple Monopoly instead of a Microsoft one last caller quick question Eric. Yes. I am calling from Anoka I started out on a Windows PC and I guess I can thank them. Helping me become computer literate, but the thing I find interesting is when I go on America online and I have if I so much to say that I like Microsoft I get beat up by a bunch of mac users. And I guess my question is is if Netscape is accusing Microsoft being a monopoly. What is Apple then? I mean you think that that would be an opportunity for Netscape to you know, they could compete against Microsoft using Apple computer. So what the the one of the things that Netscape takes great pride in is making its products for all platforms. You can get Netscape browsers and back-end systems for Max Windows machines in Unix machine there their strength is the ability to serve all platforms. They don't they don't care what your on John we are about on a timer. Let me ask you this question. Are you here? Frequently that what's happening now is the result of past omissions at the computer industry Microsoft specifically just didn't pay enough attention to the political process and they're really getting Whiplash know any truth to that. Sure. Yeah, I think so in the computer industry is just only recently kind of seeing the light that they they've got to pay attention to what's going on in and Washington. They're hiring a lobbyist left and right outside. There are hiring a lobbyist in and just watching what's going on in Washington now because they they realize that they I'm paying attention and things are kind of crept up on them. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. John. Gordon is the host of our future tense program Dwight Silverman. Thanks for joining us with the Houston Chronicle will keep you posted by the way as the story continues to develop on Microsoft. This is midday coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm a little pain, if you think the American West is entirely a frontier. Think again, since the seventies suburbs and urban sprawl have taken over pristine mountain towns have been replaced by Richie ski resort residents are selling ranches and moving to the cities and everyone is struggling to find balance in his new landscape. Join Ray Suarez live from Salt Lake City to discuss the changing American West neck stock of a Nation from NPR news. That next Talk of the Nation would be at 1 this afternoon over the noon hour. Today. We're going to hear from Donna lopiano is executive director of the women's sports Foundation time now for Garrison Keillor.