Bikeberry 6 minutes past 11 programming on NPR is supported by the University of Minnesota Cancer Centers open house a science fair for grownups and kids Sunday, April 19th information available at 6 to 48484. And good morning. Welcome to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary. I can glad you could join us. Looks like all systems are go for the second phase of the new requirements for Minnesota school students or students already are taking those basic skills test. Now in Minnesota legislative conference committee has reaffirmed its support for the profile of learning requirement that scheduled to take effect this fall with all of these new lesson plans is to make sure that students actually learn something and can demonstrate what they've learned rather than just take a certain number of courses. The plan has run into some stiff criticism among other things some Educators have been saying the profile of learning is such a dramatic change that they're not going to be able to meet this Falls deadline. And in fact legislators have decided to allow some school districts to delay the start of the new program meanwhile administrative law judges proposed some other changes in the program that do I make the profile I love learning a bit more flexible. And tomorrow the State Board of Education is holding a special meeting to discuss the profile of learning joining us today to give us a preview is the president of the State Board Ken Morris Morris is with the professional development group. That's minneapolis-based human resource Consulting organization. And we also invite you to join our conversation this morning. We're talking this hour about the profile of learning and if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call to 276 thousand in the Twin City area to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities. You can reach us toll-free and that number is 1 800 to +422-828-227-6004 1 802-4228 to a profile of learning and education are subject to sour Morris. Thanks for coming in today. How are you? Gary? Just fine. There have been some people who wanted this profile of learning scrapped altogether. Is there any chance that's going to happen or Will the program be implemented pretty much on schedule this fall at this point. The program is going forward to the board looks forward to discussing some of the issues raised by the administrative law judge John tomorrow, but as far as working through this process is going forward then and we're excited about what it holds for for education in the state of Minnesota. Do you have any reservations at all about this this program? No, we don't but let's understand that anything created by the hand of humanity is never perfect and the profiles are bar that way as well that needs to be done. I think they've been afraid of law judge wisely noted some issues that needed need to be taking a look at it, but it's nothing that derails the process and sexually he found that the other rule with it was needed and reasonable and those were the things that we were looking for to ensure that the work that is gone in by members of the State Board is where Well as the Department of Children family and learning as well as scores of teachers Educators and parents and teachers throughout throughout the state. They're their work is bearing some fruition and we're excited about seeing this process before any idea approximately how many districts might ask for a delay unknown at this point. We have to wait and see what that number looks like. We do know that there are a number of districts and I don't have that number at the top of my head who are essentially prepared to go. And and in fact, I've been working on this process over the last couple of years. Do you get the sense that the people who might be seeking a delay? Is it a question that they've just been trying to outwait this and hope it would go away or have they really had legitimate problems getting getting started. What's your best guess my best guess I take the positive you on this and that is that these are well-meaning individuals bright educated talented Educators, and he doesn't someone As well and in the concerned primarily as we've seen has been one of understanding. What does this really mean and in truly getting the facts straight about what we're talking about implementing standard in the state of Minnesota. What is that really mean? And there's been a lot of myth if you will hand the urban legend or Suburban legend or outstate Legend. However, you want to you want to describe that around these goals. And then what is a feeling we talked about standards in the state of Minnesota for a k through 12, the administrative law judge besides recommending a phase in for some districts also had some other ideas one would think is it as it's now constituted what are the 24 of these little packets or whatever they're called. He suggested that that you reduce the number of requirements and then put back some electives it is that likely going to fly. It's not like I can fly tomorrow early in the decide something different. Been a topic or consideration of something that we've discussed recently that we believe it should be reduced. That doesn't mean that it should not be a lawyer number. One of the things that we are going to do is after this rule has been adopted out there certain areas of sad that we want to take a look at it and ensure that that they do make long-term reasonable sense. And it very well may be that some discussion down the road takes place on the number of learning areas of driving it from 24 to 1 to 21 and a discussion. We have some married but in terms of going forward at this point, we're looking at that remain the 21 plus the three like the various total of 24. What about the idea that one of the criticisms we've heard of the of the program is that it in many respects could penalize the smarter kids the high Achievers who would have to spend so much time eating these requirements if they wouldn't be able to take the advanced courses that they've been taking now. La judges suggested that you simply allow them to substitute those Advanced courses for some of these profiles is that likely going to be approved? Look at that tomorrow and I suspect that's probably going to be approved again that's going to be up to it. Let the board decides has a body. However, there is that issue was raised and discuss at length as well as some other places around the state one of the the concerns that I know members of the board had as well was to make sure that the international Baccalaureate programs the advanced placement program the honors program were not adversely impacted by the new graduation Rule and I think the judge race and it sounded meritorious if she would let her do something we're going to take a look at it will be looking at is is a waiver for the content standards really designed to allow again, the parents in the district's provided to students involved in in a more. Coerced to the way the Picker Sanders Kevin Morris who is the president of the Minnesota state board of education has a joined us this hour to talk about the profile of learning which the board will be discussing tomorrow that's supposed to take effect this fall and in fact will take effect some school districts apparently will be allowed time to the phase in the start but in general begins this fall big change in Minnesota education, and if you'd like to join our conversation, give us a call to 276 thousand is our Twin City area number to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities 1 800 to +422-828-227-6000 or one 802-422-8288. He had to do it outside the school on his own time. I'd like you to take one particular subject and walk through the program with me. So I would understand it. I don't Well, if you on the line here Mary, so you can you can quiz Miss Morris we go with your question is and then hopefully I can address it. If not the hopefully if you can come down to do the State Board of Education meeting tomorrow, we be glad that well, let's take up for example, or are you speaking of a particular of course or the proposed graduation rule is that it is is content-based not course Basin in and that's very different from from understand. For example, let's say a person takes Calculus 1 in high school in the Roseville School District hypothetically speaking. That is a course now that particular course Man fact meet some of the content requirements in a Calculus 1 in most cases as I understand it would be probably an AP course or part of an international Baccalaureate program. So that that particular course is going to be more rigorous than what you may find in the traditional mathematics course the content areas or contents Tanner that that made sure he probably address would be on the standards around that kind of higher order thinking skills and Mathematics the ability to problem-solve and be able to demonstrate that and we talked about the other profiles learning. This is really two pieces that are involved. There is the the traditional and an educational model of that we get when you have sleep time and classes and that is you you're given a particular course of study or continent and in you learn about the adhan and you have to have some one way to assess kind of humble how you're doing. Generally those have been not initially focused on. Demonstrating some level of Mastery of of a particular content. Peace and what the profiles do really as is accomplish a couple of things one help a child certainly understand the data that's involved in a pic of course, but but also as in as importantly be able to demonstrate that they can apply or master and handle that data. And so when we talk about content standards vs. Coarse a course can very easily get a perception. It's well-designed meet one or more and more shouldn't be more than one of the 24 profile running areas the course it's current. It's currently designed in some districts made me one or none of the the country Darius and solos what's really have to be looked at by the local districts to ensure that that the high school students are getting all of they need it right. Now. Let's say that somebody has required. Read a Shakespeare play in an English class. Would they still be required to read that Shakespeare play Under the Sea new program? Arbitrator same question. Let's see their reading the Tempest as an example and they read it and 10th grade. That will certainly qualify for some of the deacon of the English literature of learning area and did it get depending on how the course of design of of course not having seen exactly what the teacher made do with that material but we'll assume that it does qualify. If a student takes out in the chance parade demonstrated Mastery of that and other continent, is that a qualifying at course as well that that's known as done. They don't have to do it again or 12th grade or the 11th grade once it's done it's done and there's a there's a principle that the week were operating on her and that is if you've if you've mastered the more difficult by extension you you have mastered the less difficult and so I can't imagine a circumstance where a student would be required to read that again just to say that they that they met somebody I guess what I was getting at in perhaps with Mary was talking about you. Can drop me here Mary if I'm not getting to your point here, but I guess my point would be well with number one wood. Would this child still with these new proposition profile of learning still be probably required to read that Shakespeare play and then do they have to do something else like act it out herself thing or is that what you're trying to get at here Mary? Studies can you sing about Egypt? Why is studying in Egypt then? Why would you required to do an outside assignment of 12 hours outside a classroom demonstration participant she married in terms of exactly how the courses design that is a a local school district made in an decision of how they're going to to design a course to meet the people content standards there very well may be a district that decides that some outside school activity is what they choose to do to to address a sandwich on the other hand. There may be a district that has taken another approach to to decide how they're going to handle meeting leave the protective standard as well. I suspect we we may see as many different approaches to meeting a conscience standing and I'm speaking of specific curriculum development. At the local school level as there are school districts in the state of Minnesota that will be an issue for school boards parents and teachers to decide on exactly what what horse and how they course content is going to be administered to meet the graduation standards. We hear so much about the need for Parental involvement. Is there any concern that this is so complex so difficult to explain that parents simply can't get there. I can get their arms around this thing is that it's fairly easy to call up and find out if Johnny is actually going to class and whether he's passed out of the five English classes, he was supposed to take but this one this this new approach sounds so amorphous that it's it's very difficult even explain much less. Note to measure you know what I'm saying? I think one of the challenges that some folks are having around graduation standards is it is a to use an overworked Irma paradigm shift in how one sees education if you see education as how it's been done for a number of years in Most states in the country as seat time meaning student goes to class. They they sit through a number of hours on the no standards only have to do is sit through a number of hours and somehow get through the class on tourism taking the exams here and there then they're done really and in some cases. There's no mandate to demonstrate proficiency at any level which we see is is really being non-productive in in harmful to the long-term health of the state the challenges that have people think about education. We all think about it the contacts that most of us were educated. I certainly be You know I said you hated in and open California the same issue. It's a seat time and it let me give by way of illustration about how that works and can be detrimental to children. I have two daughters very bright I think and not just because I'm their father. It's because they they are are my bride daughter. So I think they get that from her genetically and they went to Great High School here in the Twin City area. They both were accepted to Duke University. Just outstanding High School career. The majority of their classes. They took AP classes in an IB classes that were the equivalent thereof. But a lot of those were seat time in a sense of they were given material and Astor regurgitate it not deal analytically with it. Not synthesize the material not have not developed the skills that they're going to need at. The Collegiate level as a result the the classes in college that require them to handle the data, they found a little more difficult and that's what a skilled. They've had to learn over the last year or so back to the first years and we have a conversation about that. They said, you know, the one thing I high school that they did not get was they were not taught this skill of how do you handle information? What do you do with it? Sure. They're very good because I have great memories and spitting it back and they can get an A on a test because they regurgitate the facts and do very well with that but If there now a stew to describe, what is this mean how do you handle this information but not a skill to gain in high school and public high school here in Minnesota because it was something something that was dreaming that taught. And so when we think about the graduation standards that really is to bolstering show and Shore up that area that delivers foods are not getting and it raises the question that when you talk about a diploma from high school in Minnesota, what does that really mean? Does it mean that you sat through some of them were ours over however long you were here the state of Minnesota or does it mean that not only do you have a Mastery of the information in the data, but you also have a mass rehab how to handle and deal with that. That's what that demonstration part of the graduation standards is all about and that's very very different. But what we do know is from some of the lot of chickens in the state him and some some I've been doing that for years and for them this is no changed so I can make while those better teachers if you will. And that ultimately becomes a question. Are we going to continue down the track of having really no standards whatsoever. Meaning of person graduate and save it for the state of Minnesota and not really have skills to do it do much of anything or are we going to require our students to hold to a more rigorous Tanner? And that is exactly what we're doing in the graduation standards. Lots of callers on the line for Ken Morris president of the Minnesota State Board of Education. If you'd like to join them, give us a call 227-6020 area number to 276 Thousand Oaks on the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828. We're talking education this shower specifically the profile of learning that you've probably heard about. This is the second essentially the second part of the new graduation standards that the Minnesota school students won't have to meet right up your next glad place. OK every statement is I I know for a fact that goes 2000 which is the federal mechanism for funding our steak. Okay, is it is there and it had a graduation standards are simply meeting the U.s. Standard the government requirement to get this funding and that's what we're doing. We're having what I would call a government takeover lights bread or educational system. And that's what the profiles of learning is all about. And it's really not academically oriented. We gotten rid of the Carnegie units and we're just simply reinforcing government ideology what I call political correctness. I'm sitting here right now surrounded by all of the performance packages that you're talking about and they're going to be impossible to complete when the gentleman talking about for example Beautiful, you know how the old system was just simply memorizing and not and not using application. It was this is basically the kids aren't even going to have any facts to know what to do with because they're not going to have time to do both. I went to nursing school. I had to learn biology I had to learn back and then I learned how to do my skills. This is backwards Let me let me get some responses here and let's take the questions in reverse order here Miss Morris. First of all, is there so much emphasis on students showing that they can do something that they don't get the basic facts the academic information that we have historically expected them to learn we don't believe so but it does raise an important question quite often when we think about this whole issue of of requiring students to to not only know but also do that is a departure and she's quite right that is a departure from where we've been but we believe that that yes, it's much more rigorous. But we also believe that that Minnesota children are quite capable of living up to the standards in and achieving an external a high-level and there's enough time in the school day to get both the factual information across and have them Projects the challenge will be on how does a local educator decide on how they're going to to approach this area. If in fact a localized educator decides to do a 1 course 1 1 standard approach which in I don't want to speak for Mary. But if we adopt that approach she's exactly right, but I don't think anyone is hurt anywhere from the state board or the or the department or anyone who's spent discussing this issue for the last number of the last few years talked about having one continent area equal 1 course if that isn't that true, then there's no way you can get this done. But what we're saying that in fact is it is a huge disservice to the Minnesota. We're saying that this is not course base. It is standards-based and it's a standards-based you can design a course to accomplish multiple standard. In fact, a well-designed course will Do just that and is this program designed primarily to keep the feds happy so that you can continue to get your federal education money that this is somehow linked to the 2000 program with conservatives are so upset about not at all folks need to understand what the purposes of your first of all this is not a link between what the graduation rules and standards are angles. Mm is matter fact in I believe in the conference committees language now and in the Omnibus K12 bill that specifically deals with this question to let them know that folks know that there is no link between goals 2002 graduation rules standard. What is graduation rules are about as are we going to create a framework? Whereby we challenge the students in state of Minnesota to achieve attic store near high level and that's really what this is all about because we firmly believe that all kids. All kids get a cheap, but we look at goals 2003 goals. And one of those is to provide communities and states with tools to improve their school. Second is about improving the quality of education for Austin's and that's regardless of where they are on the Continuum in terms of ability and so on and throw it is really too I have local school districts have developed some comprehensive system-wide plan for reform again to to challenge kids. Is there a federal thing attached to go 2010 debate that but what's interesting is there's been so much discussion about goals 2009 to link it to the graduation standards. The only link maybe one of coincidence if you will and the standpoint that the one of the goals of having a rigorous graduation rule is that a fact is designed to do some of the things that are that Is the purpose of those mm at is to ensure that that all kids achieving a cheap well, but one thing that we need to make sure people understand is that neither goes 2000 nor the the graduation rule remove something most precious to the state of Minnesota and something I firmly believe it and that's local school control. It doesn't touch that at all. In fact, the goal here is to enhance the the ability of local districts to design systems that ensure that their children will succeed your question, please my question is after having listened to your guests trying answer the question of what is profiles and learning and I I don't think he gave her I don't think he was able to answer. My question is what is broken about the Minnesota system right now that will be fixed by this specifically and what proof is there or study results examples in other states that what what is there to show that this is going to work better than what's already in place cuz I think you need to justify huge upheaval and change and a lot of extra work by being able to point to something that says this is going to work rather than we're just going to reinvent the wheel again. This is another educational fad. Is there any evidence Hard Solid evidence that this new approach is better than what we have Courtney and I think it is a good question and I can't point to a specific study done by his medical school or Board District anywhere else that that looks at this whole question. Combining the two but we do know based on on some research that was done to the department. Is that Not your shoulder butt individuals. We find perform better in terms of handling data and understand the content as well as managing that information. If in fact that they accomplish two things and that is one and your guess is right you need to memorize and that's important. For example, you have to know your multiplication tables anywhere not saying that that is not a thing to do it because one needs to know that two times two is four and four times more is 8 excetera. They need to be able to go through that process but the other half of that learning peace and there has been documented and looked at is that individuals were able to apply the information that they're given or much further ahead. If you will in terms of Florence and that shows up not only an academically but also in the workplace in that and that's what I do is that in my what I call my day job is his deal with Workforce issues inside organizations and one other thing. We're seeing is a huge as high as seventy-five 80% of high school graduates are coming to the workforce. I'm prepared and it's not unprepared the sense that they can't add two plus two because my son can do that but I'm prepared because they can't reason their way or think their way through a problem when issuing these kids who were on the honor roll in high school. And so you want to call or raise an important question. What's broken? What we're saying is why we don't see it as a issue with fixing some at broken, but why not enhance and improve what we probably haven't really build on some of the successes that that I've gone forth in the state of Minnesota Morris is our guests. This our he is president of the Minnesota State Board of Education. The board tomorrow is holding a special meeting to talk about the profile of learning. He's come by today to give us a preview and we'll get to some more callers in just a moment. Public radio invites you to a special evening with national public radio religion correspondent Lynn Neary Neri has won numerous awards for her work as a host newscaster and reporter with NPR join Lynn Neary Wednesday evening, April 15th for exploring the landscape of religious America beginning at 7 at the Macalester College Chapel in St. Paul tickets for the lecture are free and available at Mississippi Market in St. Paul and the Linden Hills Co-Op in Minneapolis programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the American craft Council featuring works of 255 Minecraft Artisans at the Saint Paul rivercentre, April 17th, 18th and 19th information for 91209. 9 rain is likely across virtually all of the states had a fairly brisk winds and cooler temperatures and what we become accustomed to ice today mid-40s into the 50s Twin Cities rain is likely all afternoon with a high temperature in the low-to-mid 50s right now 46 Fries with light rain in the Twin City metropolitan area. We're talkin this hour with the Kenneth Morris who is the president of the Minnesota State Board of Education talking about the profile of learning, which is the schedule. That's the second part of the new graduation roll supposed to take effect. This fall or house-senate conference committee has basically reaffirmed its support for the program there had been some talk among some that the program should be scrapped all together conference committee says and I'll go ahead although some school districts apparently will be allowed to phase in the program tomorrow the Board of Education going to be discussing program and Ken Morris has joined us the shower to give us a preview if you'd like to join. Our callers number is 227-6000 in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand outside the Twin Cities one 800-242-2828 Lisa your next go ahead place. Is it important for a high-school graduates to function of Workforce? I believe that's what voltage can colleges for and at least my question. I know the profile for learning is endorsed by the Minnesota. Secondary higher education, but how will our graduates compete out states and their colleges and universities as far as meeting their requirements for admissions just going to throw a wrench in a lot of kids college plans. We don't believe so. We've had the board and the department has there been discussions and working with folks and higher education to ensure that post implementation of this rule that is fact, there won't be any adverse impact on the ability of our kids to compete at what at the higher institution of their choice be at the local Community College be at Education institution be at Elite public school or elite private school in sure is that that our kids will will be able to compete and compete at a higher level. Then. The other one is trying having wondering are you mentioned your daughters and Duke would Duke be sufficiently impressed with his new program or would they still want to be they still be interested in finding out well, how many years of foreign language? Have you had how many years of English have you had to what would do to be looking for altering? Its admission standards sign else really be looking at rigorous course of study and show me those those kids will end up at a duke or Stanford MIT or whatever will have a stork leben involved in either an IB program. I am actual Baccalaureate program or an advanced placement program archives prepared to a program and as noted by the administrative law judge and by the Russian nap time at the board as well. And within the department is that this rule allows those kids to continue that rigorous course of study and an S and some wave that the kind of Standards by being involved in that in the more rigorous course of study. Marry your question, please I'm a public school teacher and I've heard over the last many months discussion of the fact that this needs to be changed because of the fact that kids in school right now just putting seat time is you keep referring to it as and I can graduate without any standard being match and I really resent that as a public school teacher that is not the case at all rigorous studies are are being expected of students at every level of of the high schools that I have been involved in in Duluth and high standards are maintained for passage of those classes tacitly are Minnesota State Standards been reviewed nationally several times most recently information from the Fordham Foundation, which has been reviewing basically against the social studies standards at this point have given failing grades to all the geography on American history standards because they say that they're all process and no content that there is no emphasis and no requirement that students learn facts. And a true pain reviews of of Educators being called a task because students don't know who the adversaries were in World War is not addressed At All by the standards. In fact, it's watered down even further but not requiring any kind of a Content standard sounds like we're moving in the wrong direction. There are some was really only perceive that and I respect your opinion, but it but I do disagree with it, but I do need to get to commands and I'm sorry I didn't get her name and every command her again. If I based on what I understand is occurring in Duluth in terms of high standards being mad by their students and I would say that the assembly I presume they're doing a bang-up job in in fact, if that's true. They should have little to no problem with meeting the new graduation standards and as a matter of fact It should be in my kids parlance a slam dunk for them to be those things are occurring and I congratulate them for that this whole issue of about are looking in specific area. Is there enough content there? So that was a hotly debated issue and debated around the state and and looked at to say when we talk about content to what degree do we want the state imposing on imposing a specific curriculum on a local school district and in Minnesota local school districts. That is that that's been our history and that's and a proud one that local school districts determined specific curricular that their kids are will be getting high and so the graduation standards is not designed to impose a specific curriculum on local districts. What is designed to do is to say there must be Mastery of this certain area and it's and it's truly are one of the areas. We've looked at it and probably will need. Some work is the Hulk a social studies area and and the board recognizes that as well but this gives us at least a toehold if you will on creating set of standards that we can begin that people apply to our goal is to see people far exceed that and that my personal opinion is that I'd like to see them more rigorous but that's a personal pan. And I think we'll we'll find is they'll be a good tough examination as we go through this process implementation is a matter of fact, there was a just language in the K-12 bill. I believe that creates a passport to take a continual. Look at this whole are profiles. I'm going to ensure that. In fact, they're doing what we say. We want them to do. Which is a what's a standard evaluation and management practices that we do with the business world that I know and I know it's on the academic world as well. So I allow the legislature in ensuring that that that language is in the bill. Who is the who is the same dad primarily the good students the best students already taking classes with sound like I'll be able to preamp these profiles anyway, and apparently they're beyond this this level the poorest students the ones who can't even pass the basic skills test. I would think that would be the primary emphasis with them to get them up to speed. At least I can get the basic skills as it's aimed at the broad middle of Minnesota school students, or is it at that lower group or what? What's Who Who Are You targeting all students in Minnesota? But what we do know is going to happen will be that the the advanced students if you will again will help a lot of cases and hopefully her percent of cases. Able to get away about the cosmos as we actually believe that that's going to occur and it's designed to really raise the the achievement level of all students and that really is to capture students at all parts of that Continuum. Those who are on the lower it mean if we're not performing as well and as well as the great middle as well as the advance to the circle is to see this whole tide be lifted. If you weld to see all all boat student boats, if you will be raised and an achievement increase dick your question, please there would be problems for kids trying to come into our University. They would the probably not be able to meet the requirements politically. I'm liberal. But in this case, I agree with the conservatives. I think this is the wrong move. I think instead of raising standards in effect lowers them. Most of the standards are in the vocational area and they are sub Reactive in nature. It's a lot like a Scout merit badges and the teachers are supposed to oversee these projects. I could see a teacher with 30 students. Stay three standards being met that amounts to like 90 independent studies for one teacher to oversee and I think him practice what's going to happen is if the teacher will just have to check off and say okay. Okay, okay, and there's no content goals at all. So I really think this is a dumbing down and I'm very worried about it doesn't sound like much of an endorsement West Morris and here's a fellow involved in education and How do you how do you how do you convince the Skeptics like this glass is half empty or half full and visuals but are we approaching this issue and how we're approaching? The problem dumbing-down academic is a piece that has that has come up in terms of a concern about the about the graduation standards for for quite awhile. Let me address it a couple ways one by talking a little bit about what is going to perform in space or applied learning of small talk about that have a chance to look at what's been happening at certain sites around the states who have been piloting this this whole process to just to document what's up her butt and looking at this whole question of kind of performance base for Applied learning or what is it really mean performance base or play learning and assessment really is all about requiring that students before? Relevant rigorous application of of of academic content and there's been some research that we've looked at that wolf is a brain resource specialist that those types of learning opportunities. Are there consistent with what's going on in terms of current research and how does how does the brain function? How does it work? And how is learning enhance eye and if one is wants to ensure that information and it can we call it look at it the date of peace is Meaningful and memorable the students may know it to be able to do something with it to things have to have actually has two options. We try to find some experience that they've had and then attach new information to it or you can create this. Otherwise. We have students at 10 to to get information and if they don't have a relevant place in their brain to hook it onto we find that that learning can be defined learning is Is miscible memorization of facts and figures I find it tends to have little relevance in there for not a lot of places for to attach and the administrative law judge noted that even if we look at him in a score on a scale of 1/4 to demonstrate some Mastery of a subject meaning, you know, when you can do it you can demonstrate that is arguably more stringent William place, which is nothing from AST standpoint. Let's take a look at what's been happening and it's in PlanetSide. So I'm Morris Minnesota not wanting that they've done they've doubled the number of students taking the SAT test and they've been directly linked back to the preparation and the district early is the average is that are above pre-implementation of the standards for Minnesota. There was another pilot site 8th grade local teacher. They are observed at more suits are meeting at higher levels. We've had also in Richfield 4th grade teacher Has a very high level of motivation and now it's an what's happening is more parents are now being involved in the education process as well. And it's interesting quote from a high school graduate. This is all through high school and was just playing a game, you know, that the teacher speed stuff out you you regurgitate it back but what's interesting is now you have to work at demonstrate that you actually know the information and it's it's not just the process anybody can go through a process, but you can't damn sure what you doing what you know, if you're just doing a demonstration of nothing you don't you don't qualify. You don't need the standard. It really is that simple but this dude said you actually have to get involved in the writing process. You got to see now that he's in college. He says he's much better prepared for the classes that then that's what his peers or he would have been otherwise we've seen many other applications as well. I wonder if she wanted Duluth Technical High teacher there. She blows Better teacher because of using cannabis performance-based piece of the profile meaning she was already doing a great job at getting the children to know but now it's become more rigorous because I have to demonstrate what they know in terms of of applying that died at data and she's had a long history of teaching and testing students said that a high-level person earn tier credits reading and students are passing the state and federal test for the medical technician certification. So we're seeing the results of what we believe this new rule will actually begin to Foster in terms of Education state of Minnesota just about out of time but let's get one more quick question your gym and ask a quick question, please I want to reiterate would marry you from De Lucia. I think that this man insults every teacher in Minnesota when he says it all students have to do is sit in their chairs and they get a diploma. That's not And I really resent that I just retired after 40 years in the classroom and believe me. If you don't know any more about what's going on in Minnesota schools and to say something like that. I don't know if you're in a position to have to say much else but here's my question won't there be standards meth at a varying degree want some some students come to the teacher and teacher says boy. Wow, what a great deal job. You did want some students come to the teacher and the teacher says boy. This is closed. I don't know if you meant it or not. This is probably a d r a D minus and then you're going to have this is the end result is the same thing. Some students are going to blow it away and go great guns and some students are going to just barely make it. We're not going to know any more about a student when they have completed the standards of me know about them right now quick, into a Kenmore again to apologize if that's how it's named Jim. Surely not to to cash in US Persians or or or negative quality on 19th in the state of Minnesota teachers are doing a bang-up job. I said that the outlet of the outside of what this whole discussion here and I believe there are I believe I believe that teachers are some pictures of Minnesota are doing fabulous but like anything else in life or somewhere probably not doing as well. But the other issue here is is is is is not a teacher issue per se because I think he's right there are teachers who and I've decided Summit Duluth the America called earlier talked about some of the loop as well who have been doing a tremendous job with their students choice of ensuring that they have high rigorous standards within a classroom and get for those folks. We're doing that. This this is basically becomes simply a ship the what does design is due to do is to ensure that we have set up a Christian is for everybody in the state of Minnesota to to adhere to and that really is the goal. About graduation standards you it's it's not about our teachers and effective or are they effective like any other distribution in terms of performance? We will see that in the classroom of my teachers about some will be great. Someone peep in the car is right. There will be students who who will will do very well in these standards and they'll be some who who may have issues in front of me the standard the goal here is it's a figure out a way it is a challenge that that we all have in Minnesota how involved in education process where they were at Seaside or when a practitioner is a academic side where the where the classroom either as as a learner on the classroom as an instructor to to really use when I to call the electron horsepower of all these folks to to find a way to ensure that all of our children at least meet the standards, but our goal is not at least meet the standards. Our goal is to see kids by far exceed exactly. Why Time to see what we have outlined graduation standards for a run. Mr. Morris quick question the conference committees also voted to abolish the State of Florida middle of next year that a good idea bad idea. It's it it's a no question this point the other the legislature also has in that is so he's going to be looking at shortly the relative to the border and then we have the board think that makes a lot of sense. I mean it very well may be that there's a role for the board to play. But if we want maybe after study that there's not a role for the board to play and we're not taking a position saying it should be gaerne what we're saying is it just make sure we take a good look at it and study it and do what makes sense and not for the board. But what makes sense holding me for Learners in Minnesota nice for coming by today and Morris who is the president of the Minnesota State Board of Education the board that will be talking about the profile of learning program tomorrow at a special meeting. This is midday will continue in just a moment. I'm Neal Conan this week at the side of the notorious Civil War prison camp in Andersonville, Georgia a new Museum will be dedicated the national prisoner of war museum Honors that thousands of Americans have been held prisoner throughout history. Join us for a conversation with three pows from World War II Korea and Vietnam about what happened to them and how their experiences James their lives on the next Talk of the Nation from NPR news. Talk of the Nation begins at 1 today are on Minnesota Public Radio time now for The Writer's Almanac