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GARY EICHTEN: 6 minutes now past 11 o'clock, and good morning. Welcome to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Gary Eichten.

[JAZZ MUSIC]

It isn't often that we do a music program on Midday, especially one featuring an artist that isn't all that well-known. But French violinist Stéphane Grappelli was not your ordinary musician. Stephane Grappelli, who died yesterday at the age of 89, was one of the 20th century's finest jazz artists, a man who made some of the most listenable music imaginable.

Joining us this hour to talk about Stéphane Grappelli and his music, is a jazz legend himself. Minnesota Public Radio's Leigh Kamman, the longtime host of The Jazz Image, heard each Saturday evening at 7:00 on our classical music service. We'll also be talking this hour with a couple of jazz musicians. And we invite you to join our conversation as well. Give us a call as we focus this hour on the late, great Stéphane Grappelli, 227-6000 in the Twin Cities, outside the Twin Cities 1-800-242-2828.

Leigh Kamman, thanks so much for coming in today.

LEIGH KAMMAN: Pleasure, pleasure to be here. And to celebrate this life of Stéphane Grappelli.

GARY EICHTEN: Tell me, Leigh, where does he fit into the big scheme of things?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Well, as an observer and more or less a listener, not a critic, I can only say that, first of all, he's an international voice. And because of his whole approach, his tone, his swing, his melodic sense, he helped us cross over as listeners, the barriers between those of us who live in the classical music world and listen to symphony, opera, and chamber music, a chance to relate to improvisation on beautiful melodies.

He never forgot the melody. And he was not an out player as the musicians say. And I think he became a real international voice. And in that sense that Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong were international arbiters of good taste.

GARY EICHTEN: A little background, first of all, he is from France. He came from Paris, right?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Yes.

GARY EICHTEN: And he started playing back in the '20s, I understand?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Yes. In fact, in the '20s, Louis Armstrong was playing with King Oliver and had left the band to join Fletcher Henderson. And Bix Beiderbecke was the cornetist from Iowa, who was composing beautiful music, and was both a pianist and clarinetist. And Earl Hines was age 19 when Stéphane Grappelli was studying formally in 1924.

He was really a major self-taught in the street academies, I call it, bistros.

GARY EICHTEN: And then he ended up at of Hot Club of Paris? Is there such a place called the Hot Club?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Well, there were meetings, really, there were two important figures in France who voiced for Europe and the French community, the American jazz picture, and reverence and appreciation of American jazz.

And these two gentlemen, Charles Delaunay and Hughes Panassié, organized informal meetings of the Hot Club, and these were record collectors that would come together. And along came Django Reinhardt and Stéphane Grappelli, they were friends and acquaintances of Panassié and Delaunay, and they formed a musical wing live performance called of Hot Club France, The Quintet of the Hot Club of France.

GARY EICHTEN: And that really exploded interest. I mean, he captured everybody's attention with the kind of music that was coming out of the Hot Club.

LEIGH KAMMAN: Yes. It was easy to assimilate and listen to because it was really guitars, and bass, and violin.

GARY EICHTEN: Right. Well, let's back time here a little bit. First of all, you were mentioning earlier Earl Hines and we've got you've got a song cued up here, with the two of them?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Yes, back in '24, of course. Hines was really a young musician on his way in America, a pianist. And what we have here is really a music that the two of them did in London much later in time, and it gives us a chance to really hear in a stark sense, economy sense, just piano and violin, what the magic was all about?

GARY EICHTEN: OK.

[JAZZ MUSIC]

GARY EICHTEN: That was Stéphane Grappelli with Earl Hines. And when was that recorded?

LEIGH KAMMAN: That was 1974, on the 4th of July, Independence Day for the United States. But it was done in London in the Chapel Studios. And Earl Hines, renewing with Stéphane Grappelli, and just Hines accompaniment is so subtle and just propelling him right along.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's go back to Django Reinhardt, who is probably, I guess, people are most familiar with his work with Stéphane Grappelli. Now, what was that all about? Who was Django Reinhardt? And why should anyone care?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Django Reinhardt, of course, has been more or less the vanguard artist for the guitar. He was of gypsy background and played with physical impairment because of an injury through a fire, and managed to overcome it and become a very deft and wonderful guitarist.

And Django and Stéphane Grappelli met early on, it was way back in about 1931. And occasionally, they'd meet again and jam in various clubs and various settings. And finally, they ended up in a unit called the Hot Club of France, a quintet. And that was really spawned by two French historians of jazz, a Charles Delaunay, Hughes Panassié, who published and wrote about jazz and pioneered discographies. And they used to have an informal meeting of the Hot Club, which was really record collectors listening to American jazz in France.

And finally, through their acquaintance with Django Reinhardt and Stéphane, they evolved this Hot Club, The Quintet, live performance, a real unit reflecting on that French meeting.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, obviously, they played well together, but you mentioned that perhaps they didn't get along all that well.

LEIGH KAMMAN: Well, they both were rather volatile personalities. And Django was really a wandering character. And it seems that every once in a while, they, crossed each other. Sometimes if they got the wrong billing on the record or on a broadcast in the early days, it would cause tremendous fire.

And what was it somebody said? They between the two of them, they had more temperament than a ballet group or a metropolitan opera rehearsal or something.

GARY EICHTEN: They are credited with essentially putting Europe on the Jazz map. I noticed in the obituaries that were written that those two were really credited with making Europe a center of jazz as opposed to simply replaying American records. Is that accurate in your mind?

LEIGH KAMMAN: I think so. It really was a focal point, and also to the freedom in France for American musicians to play with French musicians. In the United Kingdom, in Britain, the union of musicians there didn't permit the interplay on of a group, unless they were outside the jurisdiction of the UK. In other words, if you were a British Union member, you couldn't have an American in your band.

In France, you could sit-in and jam and you could play. So there was the barriers were down. That was part of it. And then I think too, when you take a rhythm guitar and a solo guitar and a violin with bass propelling it along, you have a very easy entry as far as the average ear is concerned, and mine is the average ear

You know, you hear the melody and you like the sound of it. You can hum, whistle and sing it. You're not stretched out the a la Ornette Coleman or other avant-garde players.

GARY EICHTEN: Right. Now, you have brought with you some recordings from the late 1930s when Americans, I suppose, many of whom had never heard of these two characters, had a chance to hear them on the radio.

LEIGH KAMMAN: Yes. Well, I'd like to just set this up briefly anyway. The year is 1937, that's 60 years ago. And in America, a lot of us were listening to a program on CBS called The Saturday Night Swing Club, and the announcer on that was Paul Douglas, who was an actor later in life. And this program was celebrating its first anniversary.

And there was a young reporter out there working the Paris scene. It's before World War II, of course. And he was alive and well at the time and awake, it's dawn in Paris. It's up there in Montmartre. And we're going to take our listeners now, Gary, to the Bricktop Cafe in Montmartre. And guess who this announcer is?

And you'll hear Django Reinhardt, and Stéphane Grappelli, and The Quintet of Hot Club of France we were describing.

SPEAKER 1: Now please be kind and give us good reception. We have a treat. Swing it, Paris.

ED MURROW: First, Djangology, a composition of Stéphane Grappelli.

[JAZZ MUSIC]

[APPLAUSE, CHEERING]

ED MURROW: And now is the rising sun filters through the streets of Monmouth. The Hot Club Quintet give you Lime house Blues.

[QUINTETTE OF THE HOT CLUB OF FRANCE, "LIMEHOUSE BLUES"]

[APPLAUSE, CHEERING]

ED MURROW: Next, we hear Break Up, the composition of Stéphane Grappelli and Django Reinhardt.

[JAZZ MUSIC]

ED MURROW: And so we say good night to Stéphane Grappelli and Django Reinhardt and their Quintet of the Hot Club of France. They have been playing for you from the Bricktop Cabaret in Montmartre, Paris. This is Ed Murrow speaking and saying, swing it, America.

[LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: Edward R. Murrow before he added the R, before the rooftops of London, back when he was doing cultural broadcasts from Europe. And Leigh, I think he pronounced Django Reinhardt's first name about five different ways. It's always encouraging to hear a real pro stagger around on those pronunciations.

LEIGH KAMMAN: I had a reinforced boot on that. And we all go through the learning process. One day we get it right.

GARY EICHTEN: We're talking this hour about Stéphane Grappelli, who died yesterday. One of the 20th century's great jazz artists. Legendary French violinist. Leigh Kamman has been good enough to come by today. Of course, the host of the jazz image on our classical music service.

He himself is a jazz legend, and he's brought some records along, and a great chance to find out a little bit more about a big time artist who probably isn't as well-known as he should be. And we'll continue our conversation in just a moment.

[JAZZ MUSIC]

MICHAEL FELDMAN: Hi, this is Michael Feldman. Listen to us on KNOW-FM, and we'll bring the Whad'Ya. Get it? Just a sample of what you're in store for on Whad'Ya Know? Sunday afternoons at 2:00, beginning December 7 on Minnesota Public Radio. KNOW-FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities.

GARY EICHTEN: By the way, an invitation to join us over the noon hour today. It turns out the state has another big budget surplus. The finance officials now say that the state has another $1.3 billion. That's building up in state coffers, and state officials are trying to decide, well, what to do with all that money? Where did it come from? We'll find out about that.

And some talk about some of the proposals that are being floated as to what to do with all the extra money over the noon hour today. We'll be joined by Minnesota House Speaker Phil Carruthers and State Finance Commissioner Wayne Simoneau, and our phone lines will be open, talking about the state budget surplus over the noon hour today.

Some rough traveling conditions in the northeastern part of Minnesota. There's a winter weather advisory in effect, and freezing drizzle has already caused lots of problems throughout the northeastern corner of the state, and it's not going to get any better through the day. So if you're thinking about traveling in that part of the state, do take care.

We can look for a cloudy sky, with a good chance for light snow or freezing drizzle in the north, flurries and light rain in the south through the afternoon. Highs today upper 20s to the middle 30s. Tonight cloudy skies forecast with a chance for some snow in the southeast, lows 10s in the northwest, to the upper 20s down in southeastern Minnesota.

And then tomorrow, we can look for flurries across much of western and northern Minnesota. And more snow in southeastern Minnesota with highs tomorrow, 10s to the upper 20s. Twin Cities, chance for flurries or light rain. Temperatures about where they are. Tonight cloudy with more flurries and a low in the upper 20s. Snow flurries are forecast for tomorrow as well, with a high in the upper 20s.

Currently, Saint Cloud is a cloudy sky 32, Rochester cloudy in 33, Houghton with a cloudy sky 29, Duluth cloudy and 29 degrees, to the West Fargo with some light snow in 30, Sioux Falls snow in 32, and the Twin City temperature is 34 degrees and skies are cloudy.

We're talking this hour about Stéphane Grappelli, the great French jazz violinist who died yesterday at the age of 89. Leigh Kamman has joined us, longtime host of the Jazz Image here on Minnesota Public Radio, to play some of Grappelli's music and to talk about Grappelli's legacy.

And also joining us now is a longtime jazz violinist and trumpet player and former violinist with the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra, Bruce Allard. Good morning, sir.

BRUCE ALLARD: Good morning.

GARY EICHTEN: Glad you could join us. Were in your mind as Stéphane Grappelli fit in the big scheme of things, one of the great artists of our time?

BRUCE ALLARD: Well, he's an original. He really is, to my knowledge, wasn't copying anybody else. A lot people have copied him. It's very hard to avoid because he's been present on the scene for so many decades. In the '30s, he had a career, and then he sort of disappeared after the war and started an entirely new career in the late '60s and early '70s.

GARY EICHTEN: Is there any distinctive way that he changed jazz music in your mind? Or was it simply that he had his own style?

BRUCE ALLARD: Well, he has this impeccable sense of rhythm. The time is perfect. I've heard him live, and I don't know how else to put it. The bow never gets in his way.

[LAUGHS]

A lot of jazz artists are playing wind instruments. And it's a somewhat more natural process. It's more like singing or talking or breathing. When you're playing a bowed instrument, you have some other translatory processes that have to happen. And the bow can be of assistance or it can get in your way. And with him, it's just a very natural style.

GARY EICHTEN: You said that he was playing his own music, not necessarily imitating others. Did others imitate him?

BRUCE ALLARD: Oh, I think anybody who listens to him to any extent, you become what you listen to. So you may imitate without even intending. But when he was coming along, there weren't that many people to copy. There was Joe Venuti, and that was about it in the really early days. He and Venuti, to my ear, have very different styles, entirely different.

Venuti was a much more aggressive fiddle player. Grappelli had this sense of smoothness to his playing-- very lyrical, very rhythmic, very refined. There were never any rough edges to it.

GARY EICHTEN: Any young grappelli is out there for people who have all of a sudden discovered this music and enjoy it or find it so listenable?

BRUCE ALLARD: I can't say that I would know, that for sure. There are a lot of fiddle players, but there's only one Stéphane Grappelli.

GARY EICHTEN: Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us, Bruce.

BRUCE ALLARD: My pleasure.

GARY EICHTEN: Appreciate it.

BRUCE ALLARD: Thank you. Bye bye.

GARY EICHTEN: Jazz musician Bruce Allard, who a longtime performer with the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra.

LEIGH KAMMAN: I like his comment, Bruce's comment that Stéphane Grappelli bow never gets in the way. All hail those of you studying violin.

[LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: We have some more music, Leigh.

LEIGH KAMMAN: Yes. We might go back to Stephane in another setting, the studio setting in the Quintet of the Hot Club of France, just to reinforce what he sounded like back prior to World War II. And here he is with his colleague, Django Reinhardt.

[JAZZ MUSIC]

GARY EICHTEN: Django Reinhardt and Stéphane Grappelli, that was back in the '30s, right? They recorded--

LEIGH KAMMAN: 1937, the same date where we programmed from the Saturday Night Swing Club, Djangology, Limehouse Blues, and Break Up. And the difference between the shortwave transmission and a studio recording, of course, clean and sweet. And I think you could get a better sense of Stephane's lyrical style, his swing and his sense of melody, in contrast to that remote broadcast in the early morning from Montmartre.

GARY EICHTEN: Did his playing change quite a bit over the years? Or did it remain pretty much the same? His style and the sound and all of that?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Well, I think he just increased in skill and intensity, a lot of emotional fire in his-- I think over the years, once he freed himself of the constriction maybe of the Hot Club.

GARY EICHTEN: Huh?

LEIGH KAMMAN: That's just an opinion. Critics arise.

[LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: So what do we have next, Leigh?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Well, let's shift to Chicago for a moment. Stephane Grappelli recorded over the years a composition by his colleague Django Reinhardt, a composition called Nuages. Now there's a man in his late '70s in Chicago by the name of Johnny Frigo. And Frigo is a violinist. And he certainly has had a chance to listen to Stephane, and he is really-- artist should be more widely recognized. I'm stuttering here.

And here is Johnny, with some of that material that Stéphane Grappelli and Django Reinhart programmed so often.

[JAZZ MUSIC]

GARY EICHTEN: Well, that's pretty, Leigh.

LEIGH KAMMAN: Well, that's just an example of the impact of Stéphane Grappelli on other artists. You know, among violinists in the jazz scene, there are four overseas-- Stephane Grappelli, Svend Asmussen and Jean-Luc Ponty, and Didier Lockwood, who were sort of encouraged and were mentored by Stéphane.

But here we have in Chicago, Johnny Frigo, who was listening out there to Grappelli.

GARY EICHTEN: Good morning, Mr. Frigo.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Good morning.

GARY EICHTEN: Glad you could join us.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Am I speaking to Gary or Leigh?

GARY EICHTEN: Both. How do you do? Good to have you there.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, we're trying to celebrate the life, and we enlist your support, the life of Stéphane Grappelli.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Yeah, it wasn't a shock because I knew he had been ill, you know?

GARY EICHTEN: Yes.

JOHNNY FRIGO: But it's a great, great, great loss.

GARY EICHTEN: When you think about his legacy, what comes to mind?

JOHNNY FRIGO: Well, all I know is I don't think there's a violinist or even a classical violinist who doesn't respect him completely highly. And also every jazz violinist, he that inspired them to do that. Unless you're old enough to be as old as I am, and then we remember Joe Venuti, too. But it was really Stephane that carried the torch for all those years of being the finest jazz violinist.

GARY EICHTEN: You mentioned Joe Venuti, I was thinking too of someone who grew up in Chicago, Eddie South.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Yes. In fact, I used to practice with him. And when I lived at 1212 Lake Shore Drive and right down the street, an division and state, there was a place called the airliner years ago, and Eddie South played there. And I was playing bass mostly, because I made most of my living playing bass since high school, oddly enough until the last 14 years.

And I used drop in and listen to him. And during his intermissions, we'd go in the back room and we'd play together. He was also a fine, soulful, sort of a gypsy style jazz violinist.

GARY EICHTEN: I was--

JOHNNY FRIGO: They call him the "Dark Angel of the Violin."

GARY EICHTEN: I was talking with another musician a few minutes ago, Mr. Frigo, and ask him whether there were any young Grappelli's coming up who make that kind of listenable music. Are there people following in your footsteps that new listeners should be paying attention to?

JOHNNY FRIGO: No, I'm going to make a lot of enemies here, I guess.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, this is a news program, after all. We thrive on that kind of controversy, you know?

JOHNNY FRIGO: Yeah, well, that's OK, though.

[LAUGHS]

If I name one or two young guys that I think play well and then I didn't mention a third or something like that. There's nobody that really lights a fire under me. But there are a lot of wonderful young players. But the trouble is and I hate to say this and I'm probably going to run contrary to what this program is all about, but every time I play any standard song, it's Sweet Georgia Brown or Lady, Be Good, that's all you hear.

Play me some Stéphane Grappelli because he did all those straight standards, and never went into tunes that were maybe a little more obscure chord-wise. And so I have that tag attached to me, like the A on Miss Prine in the book. But how can I say this? I love Stéphane.

And the only thing I can say is that, in my ballads, I guess that you could say that there is a semblance of same, that he would come to mind if you hear me play my ballads. But I felt that when he played his swing tunes, they also still had a very delicate swing to them. They were never truly ambitious. And of course, it's a different era too, so that's not fair to him to say that, because he was my idol, and it's what I grew up with.

The swing tunes that he played were just wonderful. But they all had a little more sameness, I would say, than when you'd hear a great tenor player or a great jazz pianist or something else. It wasn't as experimental as you would have it to be. In other words, there weren't that many different sounds that came out of his violin.

Everything he played was beautiful and perfectly on pitch. And he never faltered. He was just a magnificent musician, even a great pianist that very few people know about. He's a wonderful pianist. But it did have a delicacy and a sweetness that I tried to get away from if I'm playing a heavy jazz tunes, swing tunes.

Even I feel like at this point that I'm progressing, because I started so late to concentrate on my violin again after playing bass all those years.

GARY EICHTEN: Still learning and still experimenting.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Yeah. Is this possible to do this? I'm expecting an important call to cut you off just because I hear a call coming on. Is that possible? I'll tell the other person to hang on--

GARY EICHTEN: That's fine, Mr. Frigo. I appreciate it. We're unfortunately running out of time ourselves here.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Well, then I'll just ignore the next call.

GARY EICHTEN: But really like to thank you for joining us this hour.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Well, I'll stay on if you want me to stay on longer. That's OK.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, we need to move along, but appreciate your comments.

JOHNNY FRIGO: Oh, you're very welcome.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks a lot.

JOHNNY FRIGO: OK. Thanks.

GARY EICHTEN: Bye bye. Johnny Frigo from Chicago. Grappelli contemporary, could we say, Leigh?

LEIGH KAMMAN: I think so. And a composer with Herb Ellis wrote a theme called Detour Ahead that we all know, a lot of us anyway.

[LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: Now, he raises an interesting issue, I don't know precisely what he was trying to get at because I'm not a musician, obviously, and I'm not all that familiar with jazz, frankly. But is what he was talking about the reason that Grappelli is so accessible to non-jazz fans? That he was playing a lot of these standards pretty straight?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Yes. I think you got the message. That was the message I got. Lyrical, delicate swing is what Frigo mentioned, and that rhythmic sense of his. Everything did swing, but not beyond comprehension for those of us who can't keep time.

GARY EICHTEN: We are unfortunately running out of time here. But we do have a caller on the line. Carter, go ahead please.

AUDIENCE: Hi. I just wanted to say briefly. I'm sort of a semi-professional musician. I play mostly folk and blues type things on the guitar. But I just wanted to talk about how Stéphane Grappelli had influenced me as a musician.

GARY EICHTEN: Yes, go ahead.

AUDIENCE: And that was mainly just the joy that he brought out in his music. Wasn't so much of a stylistic influence for me, but just I don't see how anybody could be sad listening to his music. And that's something that I try to bring out as much as I can in my own way when I play.

And that's pretty much all I had to say. I just wanted to comment that his influence extended beyond, just the jazz and the violin spheres.

GARY EICHTEN: Right. Thanks for your call. Appreciate it. Caller from Red Wing. We don't have a lot of time left, Leigh, unfortunately. What's up next?

LEIGH KAMMAN: Let's touch on the crossing of the barriers, from jazz, to classical music, and the influences. And certainly when Stéphane Grappelli and Yehudi Menuhin met, they formed a duo that helped to influence the lovers of classical music and maybe even bluegrass. Who knows?

And then those who were just rooted in cabaret music because they tapped into all the good writers like Jerome Kern, the writers of standards, and their team working together and recording. Yehudi Menuhin and Stéphane Grappelli once again influenced and brought him new listeners, and I think elevated Stéphane Grappelli.

[YEHUDI MENUHIN, STEPHANE GRAPPELLI, "PICK YOURSELF UP"]

GARY EICHTEN: A little cross-culture there.

LEIGH KAMMAN: Lovers of counterpoint. Menuhin and Grappelli on Jerome Kern's Pick Yourself Up. And they were a pair that won a lot of listeners for the jazz violin.

GARY EICHTEN: I think one of the most amazing things that I heard in the last day or so about Stéphane Grappelli was that he kept playing right on until, well, nearly till he died here. And we're going to go out with a song that he recorded fairly late in his life. Is that right?

LEIGH KAMMAN: At his 85th birthday concert at Carnegie Hall, and his team working with the guitarist Bucky Pizzarelli, who will be in the Cities here soon to play for the Minnesota Guitar Society. He's in the rhythm section. And there's Stephane on stage at Carnegie Hall.

GARY EICHTEN: Leigh Kamman, thanks so much for coming in today.

LEIGH KAMMAN: Pleasure, always a pleasure.

GARY EICHTEN: Tribute to Stéphane Grappelli. Celebrate his good life and his wonderful warmth and joy.

[JAZZ MUSIC]

GARY EICHTEN: You're listening to Midday, coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio.

SPEAKER 2: Here's a Prairie Home Companion sound effects wizard-- Tom Keith.

TOM KEITH: Hey, pipe down back there. Sit.

Hi. I guess we're moving the show to Saturday.

Bring it back, back, back, That's good. Hey, that's good. Stop, stop.

SPEAKER 3: Listen, for a Prairie Home Companion at its new time, beginning December 6.

TOM KEITH: Do you have any idea how much those sound effects cost?

SPEAKER 3: Live Saturday afternoons at 5:00 on all MPR stations, and repeated Sundays at noon on Minnesota Public Radio KNOW-FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities.

GARY EICHTEN: It's 12:00 noon, and this is Midday, coming to you on Minnesota Public Radio. We're going to break for some news headlines. And then after the news, we're going to talk about the big budget surplus. The state has rolled up another $1.3 billion budget surplus. We'll take a look at how that happened. And we'll talk about some of the proposals to spend that money. We'll get to that after the news.

LORNA BENSON: I'm Lorna Benson. On the next All Things Considered, Russia may cut back on international adoptions, bad news for Minnesota's waiting families. It's All Things Considered, weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota Public Radio, KNOW-FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities.