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PERRY FENELEY: Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Dayton's Oriental Rug Departments in Downtown Minneapolis, Saint Paul and the Southdale, Brookdale and Rosedale home stores.

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And good morning. Welcome to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. Gary Eichten is away this week. I'm Perry Feneley. Thanks for joining us on this Thursday, the last day of July, July 31, 1997. Of course, most of you have heard months of contentious, federally-mediated negotiations intended to settle the controversy over motorized use of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness have failed to lead to an agreement, but there is some movement on the issue in Congress.

A Senate committee voted along party lines this week to allow trucks back into three BWCA portages. The legislation, sponsored by Minnesota Republican Senator, Rod Grams, now goes to the Senate floor. A similar bill by Democratic Congressman, Jim Oberstar, awaits action in the House. Meanwhile, Democratic Senator, Paul Wellstone has introduced a competing measure, which would expand the wilderness by nearly 22,000 acres in exchange for reopening two portages, Trout and Prairie.

And to well, muddy the waters even further, so to speak Democratic Congressman, Bruce Vento, has introduced legislation to expand the wilderness without restoring the truck portages at all. Minnesota Public Radio's, Bob Kelleher has been following this story, and he joins us from Duluth to explain more of the details of each of these bills and how they differ. Good morning, Bob.

BOB KELLEHER: Good morning, Perry.

PERRY FENELEY: Should we begin with the Grams bill? That's the one that passed out of Senate committee yesterday.

BOB KELLEHER: OK, this is commonly called the Grams, Oberstar bill because there's a companion piece in the House which has been sponsored by Congressman, Jim Oberstar. It's a fairly simple measure. It's not nearly as complicated as one introduced a year ago that didn't get very far. It would reopen three of those portages where trucks at one time pulled boats between lakes. These are between motorized lakes, and they're often motor boats.

The portages are Trout, Prairie and Four Mile portages. And that Four Mile, by the way, lives up to its name. It's four miles long. And the other part of the measure would allow boats to remain on Seagull Lake. This is a lake in the Eastern Boundary Waters wilderness. Part of it is in. The wilderness part of it is out. And the part out of the wilderness is supposed to lose most of its motor use after January 1 of 1999. There are people who have cabins within that wilderness area, and they don't want to lose the use of motors. So it's reopening portages and allowing motors to stay on Seagull Lake. And it's as simple as that.

PERRY FENELEY: And Senator Paul Wellstone just this week introduced his bill.

BOB KELLEHER: The Wellstone bill is modeled very closely after what Boundary Waters mediation came up with. Now, the mediation panel didn't-- they couldn't agree by consensus. Not everybody would agree to this. But this is generally what about 19 of 20 people came up with. This is to reopen two of the portages, which would be Trout and Prairie portage to add substantial number of acres to the wilderness, 22,000 acres of mostly forested land and would include some old growth forest.

And it would also eliminate tow boats from two areas, from South Farm and Basswood Lakes. Now tow boats or boats which generally pull canoes from close to, say, Ely and other entry points deeper into the wilderness. So you get a jump start on where all the canoeists are. They're quite disliked by some people.

PERRY FENELEY: And Congressman, Bruce Vento has a bill as well then.

BOB KELLEHER: Congressman Vento's bill would add to the boundary waters about 7,000 acres of land. Not nearly as much as under the Wellstone bill. It would ban all towboats, however, instead of just from a couple specific lakes. And then it has some specifics. It would ban all motors from that seagull lake again in the Eastern part of the boundary waters, the portion within the Boundary Waters. Even under current plans, some motor uses would be allowed there.

But under Vento's bill, none would be in the wilderness part of that lake. And also where it adds Wilderness new acres, it would prohibit the low flying aircraft and seaplanes from those wilderness areas as well. So generally it adds acres is its main provision.

PERRY FENELEY: OK, now I mentioned that these negotiations, these federal-mediated negotiations have failed to reach an agreement. Are they done or where do they stand?

BOB KELLEHER: Well, the Boundary Waters negotiations or the mediation really is done. They had their last session in April. There was no consensus. A report was issued on what they talked about, what they came close to coming to consensus on. And some minor issues they did agree on that aren't related to the really contentious issues in the Boundary Waters. But the Federal Mediation for the Boundary Waters is over. Related mediation over Voyageurs National Park there will be at least one more session on that area coming in September.

PERRY FENELEY: All right, Bob. Well, thanks so much for the update.

BOB KELLEHER: You bet.

PERRY FENELEY: It's Minnesota Public Radio's Bob Kelleher, who has been following the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness story. Now, of course, we're going to further explore the many issues surrounding the BWCA conflict with some folks who-- while not taking direct part in those negotiations, they are very familiar with the issues here in our NPR studios today in Saint Paul is Becky Raum. She is vice president of the Friends of the Boundary Waters Wilderness.

It's a group that opposes increasing motors in the BWCA. She's also a member of the governing council of the National Wilderness Society. Welcome, Ms. Raum.

BECKY RAUM: Thank you.

PERRY FENELEY: Also joining us from our studios in Duluth, where we just heard from Bob himself is Mike Forsman. Mr Forsman is a Saint Louis County Commissioner. He is a former mayor of Ely. He wants to see some closed motorized portages reopened. And Mr Forsman, are you there?

MIKE FORSMAN: We're there.

PERRY FENELEY: OK, great. Thanks for joining us today. And those of you in the listening audience today, if you have any questions about the BWCA for our guests, feel free to call. The number in the Twin Cities is 287-6000. That's 287-6000. We also have a toll-free number for those of you in out state Minnesota or in other parts of the region. 1-800-242-2828. That's 1-800-242-2828.

Ms Raum, I'll begin with you. Now, we've heard these three bills that are now before Congress. Do any of them have any real chance of passing? There's serious opposition to all of them, isn't there?

BECKY RAUM: There is. I think what the bills demonstrate is that there is no consensus on any measure that will improve the wilderness. This was also, in fact, the result of mediation. The consensus of the mediators was in fact that they could not come up with an improvement on current law on the status quo. That's right where we find ourselves in Congress. What we're finding is, in fact, that the latest wilderness bill, the latest wilderness law, the 1978 wilderness law, works very well.

PERRY FENELEY: OK, Mr Forsman, how about you? Do you think any of these bills have a legitimate chance of passing?

MIKE FORSMAN: I believe that every one of them have a chance of passing. And when you come to what happens in the legislature, what happens in Congress is there is no possible way of knowing what will make it and what won't. I'm somewhat fearful that the Wellstone measure or the Vento measure may pass. And that from my standpoint, the only bill that makes sense is the Grams, Oberstar bill.

So as far as what can pass, I believe anything could pass. I guess I would just say that before I go too much farther is that, I was asked by my brother Paul, who was a mediator who attended all of the mediation sessions, or at least the greatest portion of them and was very active as representing what I believe are my views and the views of many people on the mediation for the most part.

And he asked me if I would come and represent his views more than those of a Saint Louis County Commissioner. Even though I am the commissioner that represents the 1/3 of the boundary waters, everything that's within the St. Louis County borders. So anyway, just so that's kind of clear.

PERRY FENELEY: OK, now, of course, the original law was written in 1978. And it's not until I think a couple of years ago when we first heard that there was going to be some move. Mr Forsman, first of all, to you, what do you think precipitated any of these bills and especially the Gram's bill?

MIKE FORSMAN: Certainly. I mean, and I think it's very clear to anyone that knows the history on it. But I think that the local people and those people, the fisher-- it's kind of a fishermen and fisherwomen versus the paddle-only people that that's what I believe is the issue. And I think that with the elimination of the truck portages by a court action which was lost, in my mind, the portages were lost to motorized use in the appeals court.

In 1978, the portages were opened. And the portages remained open until they were taken to courts by the Friends of The Wilderness and a number of other environmental groups that basically the law or the judgment that came down closed those portages. And what it is, is that this has effectively kept people from going from one motorized lake to another motorized lake. In the case of Trout Lake, they go from Vermilion, which is an unlimited horse power to Trout Lake, which is a 25 horsepower lake.

And from Fall Lake, which is a 25 horse in the northern or the Eastern portion of it, onto a Basswood, which is 25 horsepower maximum. And also from the Moose Lake chain, which is a 25 horsepower across Prairie Portage into Basswood also, which is a 25 horsepower lake. So what it amounts to is that it eliminated a lot of the elderly people, a lot of those people that traditionally have fished in those areas.

And it also broke Senator Hubert Humphrey's promises that when Hubert Humphrey helped put the '78 bill through or the promises made in '64 with the first bill and then the promises made prior to this 1978 was that those portages would never be closed so that the local people would-- and those that wish to fish in those lakes with their 25 horse motor-- would always have an opportunity to get in without the struggle and the tough road that it is to get across with portage wheels and the means that they have to do it now.

PERRY FENELEY: Miss Raum, going back to this vote in the Senate yesterday, it was noted that the committee's ranking Democrat, Dale Bumpers, I believe, of Arkansas, is indicating some sympathy to reopening these two of the three portages. It sounds like some kind of compromise. No chance or?

BECKY RAUM: I don't think so. Mike and I look at history a little differently. And if I could just talk about that. The Boundary Waters was included in the National Wilderness Preservation System in 1964 with the passage of the Wilderness Act. The Wilderness Act was the most important environmental public lands legislation in this century in America.

And what it did was to set aside a part of America that was to be preserved as wilderness, where man came as a visitor, where you met the woods on its own terms. Wilderness was defined in the Wilderness Act as an area where there were no roads, permanent or temporary, where there were no motor boats and other motorized vehicles, where there were no airplanes.

In 1964, the chief sponsor of the bill, Hubert Humphrey, Senator Hubert Humphrey, recognized concerns of some local interests who had used the Canoe Country Wilderness area in ways that were incompatible with the definition of wilderness. And so exceptions were made to the wilderness to allow some incompatible uses to continue. Those incompatible uses included mining, logging and motorboat use. That led to tremendous strife in the community.

So Congress looked at the wilderness area again in 1978, and what it recognized in 1978 was that with these incompatible uses, you did not have wilderness. They were denying wilderness to everyone. And they decided that over the next 20 years, incompatible uses would be slowly removed from the wilderness, thus allowing people to adapt, so that ultimately, at the end of 20 years, we would have more of a Canoe Country Wilderness for everyone.

That's what has been going on. And it's worked well with one exception, the Forest Service was required to remove trucks and roads from the wilderness in three locations in 1983. And they did order the trucks removed in 1983. And then after a visit by some politicians behind closed doors, they decided, well, maybe they should do some tests to see if portage wheels-- which had been a mean means of getting into the wilderness with motor boats since the early '60s-- was an alternative that worked.

So they did 24 field tests, and 22 of them succeeded. Of the two that did not, one was one person trying to push a commercial tow boat across a portage and the other was a man and woman with 2,000 pounds of gear in a boat pushing it across. Not a likely scenario. Again succumbing to political pressure, the Forest Service said, well, maybe it really didn't work very well because people had to work hard.

That's an interesting concept because being in wilderness means you work hard. That's part of being there. That's part of the experience. Wilderness is not easy, and it's not for everyone. So unfortunately, the environmental community had to go to court and ask the courts to tell the federal government to enforce the law. That's why we have courts. If someone breaks the law or a corporation breaks a law or an agency breaks the law, the courts are there to say, you've got to uphold the law.

Now, the courts upheld the law. And in the five years since the trucks have gone, the wilderness has improved tremendously. The absence of motors, of trucks on those portages has allowed people to use smaller boats and motors. And interestingly, at two of the three entry points that are under dispute, 100% of the motor permits available for entry are used every year. At the entry point, we have about 85%.

So there's plenty of access. Access is not an issue. What Mike and I are debating is large boats and motors that simply do not belong in the wilderness and deny everybody a wilderness experience.

PERRY FENELEY: OK, two very conflicting views about management of the Boundary Water Canoe Area Wilderness. And if you have any thoughts, give us a call. 227-6000 in the Twin Cities or 1-800-242-2828. Let's take our first call. Peter, in Saint Paul.

PETER: Hello.

PERRY FENELEY: Hi.

PETER: Hi. I wanted to bring up an issue that I haven't heard addressed in any of the conversations or discussions of this topic. And this is an issue of safety. A lot of times we tend to think of the conflict as one between aesthetics and convenience. When you examine whether there should be motorboats or canoes only in the wilderness area.

And what I want to bring up is the lack of common sense in having a wilderness area that has both motor boats and canoes on the same lake. And from a personal experience, I can tell you that if I'm in a canoe going along maybe fighting some waves-- which is to be expected-- one of the hardest things to deal with is when a motorboat comes by-- and especially if it's towing a good load-- and the wake created by that motorboat, even if it goes by slowly, that wake oftentimes comes in at a bad angle, at a side angle, a cross angle.

And literally you have to brace yourself for the weight coming in on the side as you're dealing with the waves in front of you. And several times in my experiences, I've come close to going over. And I've always thought, well, this is very unusual in our society, especially this litigious society that we live in. We wouldn't allow, for example, bicyclists to occupy a freeway where there's semis that can create strong enough winds to blow you over. I'm just wondering how the Commissioner can talk about sense or what's good sense with regard to safety.

PERRY FENELEY: OK. Thanks very much. Mr Forsman, what about that? Can both of the canoes and the motorboats be in the same lake without creating safety concerns?

MIKE FORSMAN: I would love to answer that there. I spent quite some time working for Canadian Waters. And part of my job, especially in the fall after the college kids took off for school, the ones that drove the tow boat, I drove tow boat up in Basswood back when you used to be able to run an unlimited horsepower in Basswood. And it's one of the larger lakes in Minnesota. And I don't know if a lot of people know that.

I mean, there are times when I'd be in a 20 some foot I/O, inboard outboard, 150 horse, and I'd be running across that lake, and I was scared in that lake. And we're talking about Basswood, and we're talking about Trout Lake, two large lakes. And I didn't know exactly what Peter is talking about because I had many of those canoeists flagged me down, even though they weren't on our tow list, trying to get a board on our boat.

And we'd take them in because they were scared. They were scared on those lakes. Those lakes are tough lakes to deal with. We're not talking the small lakes like you might have in some of the peripheral areas of the 1,000 lakes that are in the Boundary Waters-- and there are over 1,000 lakes in the Boundary Waters-- we're talking about two of the largest lakes and very scary lakes to be on with a canoe when the winds are rough.

Spent a lot of time saving people on that lake there and people that bailed that were frightened out there. And I took them on that boat, and I was glad to take them on that boat to get them away from harm's way. And they were very anxious to see those tow boats come. Those towboats do not exist anymore. The tow boats that you talk about now are at probably the largest about a 16 footer with a 25 horse motor on it.

I mean, people get towed all the time. I mean, Becky Raum when she came to the portage, I mean, she used the 8 horse motor to get her to the just behind the island so she could come paddling in. I mean, that sort of thing is done. I mean, that's a normal thing. And Becky, I totally disagree with a lot of the things, but I told myself that you said-- and I guess, I told myself-- I got a big note in front of me-- be respectful and truthful.

Because as an elected public official, I'm expected to be respectful and truthful. But then as an attorney yourself, people don't expect respect and truth out of an attorney. And I guess from my standpoint, I disagree with so many of the things you said. Mining and logging after '64, there was no mining or logging in the Boundary Waters. Everyone knows that. You didn't need to say that. That wasn't true.

When you talk about everybody wanting to work hard when they go on a wilderness experience, there's a lot of people that live in the Ely area and the Tower area and the Babbitt area that when they want to go-- they work hard all week. And when they want to go fishing and they want to fish the same spots that their great grandfather's fish, their grandfather's fished, and their father's fished, and their uncle's fished, they want to have an experience where they can relax.

Not struggle over four miles dragging a boat, go out fishing and struggle dragging a boat four miles across the Four Mile Portage or as watching the sweat pour off of Bruce Vento's shirt there. And as I read through this thing, Northeastern Minnesota, off the internet where you said, Congressman Vento pulled these boats across the Portage with ease. I mean, come on now. My son's sitting here in the studio with me. He saw the sweat dripping off of his and he's nodding his head and he saw the sweat dripping off of his T-shirt. And he had four people on his boat. Not two, four people. So come on now. Be fair.

PERRY FENELEY: Well, I just want to ask you a question then from it you can respond however you'd like. But I'm just I'm curious, and thanks for clarifying. It was 1964 that this was all created, but I hear a lot about--

MIKE FORSMAN: '78 was the second bill. And that's the one.

PERRY FENELEY: Right. I think the wilderness itself was created in '64 but '78, I hear a lot about we're going back to the spirit of '78. And I hear both sides saying that. And I know that I don't see how that can be for one thing. And secondly, I mean, is there some misinformation that are on both sides? Not that [? you ?] might be lying, but just a minute, Ms. [INAUDIBLE], Ms. Raum, I mean, do you sometimes use to your advantage to get your point across certain misinformation or?

BECKY RAUM: Absolutely not. I think what you have here is a fundamental disagreement on wilderness. Mike does not see wilderness the way wilderness is defined under the Wilderness Act. And if you allow, for example, the measures of the Grams bill, increased motorization of the wilderness, you lessen this canoe country as wilderness.

Large boats with large motors are incompatible with Wilderness. They don't belong in the Wilderness. And facilitating their presence diminishes Wilderness. Let me give you an example. The last year that the truck was on the Portage going into trout lake, 73 canoe parties went into the lake. There are up to nine people in a canoe party.

The last year that we have Forest Service statistics, we know that 331 canoe parties went into Trout Lake. The absence of the truck has led to a much better canoe lake and a much better canoe experience. Correspondingly, the numbers of voters have gone down a little bit on Trout Lake, but mostly people have adapted and used smaller craft. But the important point to understand is that boaters have two million acres of the superior National Forest surrounding the canoe country.

Motor boaters have 14,000 lakes in Minnesota that are unrestricted in their activities. Those people who want a canoe country wilderness experience have only one place to go and that's the canoe country. And to put boats there is to deny wilderness to everyone so there can be no canoe country wilderness for anyone. And that's a fundamental disagreement that Mike and I have on wilderness and how it should be managed.

In fact, the Grams, Oberstar measure breaks the 78 law. It undoes that delicate compromise that moves closer to true wilderness status for our canoe country. You should also understand that the canoe country, the BWCA, is about at capacity for canoeists. And there will be no other place for those 331 canoe parties on Trout Lake to go if the trucks bring back big boats and motors.

We know from-- as the phase outs have occurred over the last 20 years-- that not only the elimination of the trucks, but the elimination of the boats has increased significantly the carrying capacity of the wilderness on Brule Lake in 1986, motorboats were taken off. They were banned. And what we found was that all of those motor permits and canoe parties were replaced by canoe parties. Plus there was a 50% increase in overall usage of Brule Lake.

So we had a much greater carrying capacity for people who want to enjoy the canoe country. You bring the boats in and fewer people enjoy it. The canoe country shrinks as people try to get out of the way of these big motor boats for many of the reasons, including the reasons of safety that were discussed by the gentleman who called in.

PERRY FENELEY: We were discussing the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness today with Becky Raum, vice president of The Friends of the Boundary Waters Wilderness, and Mike Forsman, a Saint Louis County Commissioner and former mayor of Ely. It's 29 minutes before 12:00 noon. You are listening to Midday on Minnesota Public Radio.

BOB POTTER: If money is a constant point of friction between you and your children, tune in to Sound Money this weekend to learn what you can do to ease the tension and teach them what they should know. Hello, this is Bob Potter. And my guest will be Janet Bodner, author of Dr. Tightwads Money-Smart Kids. Hear the latest from Chris Farrell and Erica Wittlinger too on Sound Money Saturday morning, 10 o'clock here on Minnesota Public Radio. KNOW-FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities.

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PERRY FENELEY: Today's programming is made possible in part by the Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio. Contributors include Cargill, supporting Minnesota's tradition of community service and Norwest Foundation on behalf of Norwest Bank, Minnesota. Our forecast for the state of Minnesota today, partly to mostly cloudy. There is a chance for some showers and possible thunder showers in Western and portions of Central Minnesota today.

Highs from the middle 70s to lower 80s. There is a chance of showers and thunderstorms mainly in the South and East tonight. Lows in the low to mid 60s. Then tomorrow should be mostly sunny in the Fargo-Moorhead area. Partly cloudy in Rochester with a chance of showers and thunderstorms. Warmer tomorrow across the region with highs in the 80s. For the Twin Cities, cloudy this afternoon. A high in the upper 70s. Mostly cloudy tonight.

A 40% chance of showers, maybe a thunderstorm. A low of 65. Tomorrow, partly sunny. A 30% chance of thunderstorms and a high of 82. In Saint Cloud at 68. Duluth, 70, Rochester, 68. In the Twin Cities, the temperature is 71 degrees. This is Midday on Minnesota Public radio, 27 minutes before 12:00 noon. And we're talking about the Boundary Waters canoe Area Wilderness today, of course, the conflict that surrounds management of the BWCA.

Our guest today, Becky Raum, vice president of The Friends of the Boundary Waters Wilderness, a group that opposes increasing motors in the BWCA. And Mike Forsman is in Duluth today, a Saint Louis County Commissioner and former mayor of Ely. He wants to see some closed motorized portages reopen. If you'd like to join the conversation, 227-6000 in the Twin Cities or 1-800-242-2828 is the toll-free number. Let's bring in, Natalie is next. Hi, Natalie.

NATALIE: Hi there. I am a 61-year-old lady who'll be heading up to the Boundary Waters Canoe Area this afternoon. And I'm a living example of the varying uses that we who are boundary waters, canoe trippers can have of our wonderful Minnesota. When I was a young person, I did extensive trips to The Boundary Waters. It was wonderful. Then when I had young children, it wasn't possible for me for a while because, as the gentleman said, it was too difficult.

And then we used other facilities, camping with our children. As they got older, back to The Boundary Waters. Now our children are almost at the point of bringing their children to The Boundary Waters Canoe area and it still exists for them and a blessing on those who have kept it. But there's another issue. I'm also a physical therapist. And I specialize in the care of the severely multiply handicapped.

And I wonder if you're aware of Wilderness Inquiry, which is a group that puts together able-bodied and disabled for wilderness experiences and other travel. And some of my severely head injured patients have traveled in The Boundary Waters, both summer and winter with this group with wilderness inquiry. And done absolutely phenomenal thing in the wilderness as it is with no motorized assist. And--

PERRY FENELEY: All right, thanks so much for the comment. We do need to move on, but thanks for the point about Wilderness Inquiry. Mr Forsman I do want to ask you about that because that's I know the heart of the Grams and Oberstar bills. This would increase access for the disabled, for the elderly. And it seems like for those who can make it, certainly can get in there. I mean, it is a wilderness area after all. Do we have to make special access for everyone to get in there?

MIKE FORSMAN: Certainly not. I mean, it is a wilderness. And I mean, it's a specially designed wilderness. And that was some of the promises that Senator Humphrey made years ago, that this would be a different wilderness than what the wilderness that Becky talks about. And one of the things that it has to be kept in mind is that the increased motorized use that will be in there, we're talking about the largest of all of the bills.

The only increase is the addition of three trucks to the truck portages. That we're not talking about any other increased motors. And I realize that by creating controversy that we can fill the coffers of not only the Wilderness Society and The Friends of the Wilderness and those things. And I realize that's what the purpose of trying to create controversy. But we're talking about--

PERRY FENELEY: Isn't that the argument that Senator Gram's and Representative Oberstar are making?

MIKE FORSMAN: And I will make the same argument. I mean, Wilderness Inquiry is certainly a wonderful thing, that they would send people in, a group of people to help handicapped. But if you know a lot of the handicapped people-- and I do know a lot of handicapped people. I spent a portion of my life driving a handicapped bus and helping kids and adults and young adults on and off the bus.

One thing that handicapped people-- and you can have them call in, and you don't have to have the setup ones that are coming in from the friends of the wilderness that are calling in. No. But you could have the people that are truly handicapped and let them tell you what they feel about somebody else helping them. At one time some of my friends used to be able to take in-- one that's a paraplegic-- used to be able to drive across Fall Lake. He'd get to the other end. And he would sit in his boat while they would load the boat up on the trailer.

And they'd pull it across by the jeep across Four Mile, and they'd drop him into the other end of the lake, and he'd have a whole day fishing out there. And he could fish. And he was independent. And what independence is a very, very important part to handicapped people. Not to be waited on by a bunch of people that are getting a lot of money from Agent Orange money and a lot of other things and that are closely aligned with the environmental groups that are right now, as far as I'm concerned, by creating the controversy they have over the Boundary Waters, are filling their coffers with money.

And I think that's the reason for this controversy. We're talking about three more motors and three Jeeps. That's all we're talking about. And the quota system does not allow for any additional people to come to the wilderness no matter what. Because that's how the quota system has dropped the number over the years going in there. So there isn't going to be increased motor use or increased use, period. And for someone like Becky, whose father is a multi-millionaire, made his money by sending people into the Boundary Waters through Bill Raum's Canoe Country Outfitters out of Ely.

And at one time her brother brags that he had 1,000 canoes in the wilderness and that is how she got through law school with that kind of money. And that to me, it's a slap in the face to those people that have lived there all their lives. And I've got 50 years in that town, and I believe that it is not the sentiments of that community.

PERRY FENELEY: All right. Well, I don't know that he answered the question, Ms. Rob, but I'll ask I'll flip it around for you then. And I want to ask, now there are some portages like you mentioned, Trout Lake. And these are on the fringes of the BWCA. Why not just open them up to the motorized portages? I mean, they're not in the middle of the wilderness. They're not going to disrupt someone who's trying to get away from it all. Are they really?

BECKY RAUM: Actually they are. Two of the portages go into the heart of the Boundary Waters, which is Basswood Lake, which is the crown jewel that people would see. I'd like to talk about the disability because I think that's really interesting. What I have come to learn is that the usage in the Boundary Waters is not limited by one's physical abilities. It really is much more an attitude. Individuals with disabilities, young folks and old folks use the Boundary Waters by scores.

The Boundary Waters is the most accessible wilderness area in the United States. A person in a wheelchair can paddle a canoe. And there is a multiple range of points of entry into the Boundary Waters that allow people who want to go in without starting their canoe trip with a portage, which is what you would do at Trout Lake. The Minnesota Council on Disabilities has condemned this excuse by Grams and Oberstar for their bill. And said, this is not a reason to introduce those bills. Don't patronize us.

The Congress itself did a study on disabilities and the wilderness and found that three out of four people who have disabilities do not want wilderness compromised. They want to experience wilderness on its own terms. It may mean they need assistance. They need technical assistance. They have to plan just like you and I have to plan our wilderness trips and make sure we have enough tents and sleeping bags in our water purifiers.

Individuals who have disabilities have to plan for it and take advantage of the technical and manpower assistance so they too can experience wilderness. But what Mike is advocating is wilderness for no one. If you're going to make it accessible and easy for everyone, there will be no wilderness. And what we're saying is there should be one special place in America that is wilderness. It's an attitude, not a physical limitation.

PERRY FENELEY: OK. Thanks. Let's go back to the phone. We're joined now by state Representative Tom Bock of Cook. Good morning.

TOM BOCK: Hey, good morning. I'm joining you today from Saint Paul. I actually am on my way down here for a meeting at the Capitol. And I find that the conversation a little interesting in that the entire Boundary Waters Canoe Area falls within my legislative district. And I did participate in the Congressional field hearing last Saturday that Congressman Vento, Congresswoman Chenoweth, Senator Gram's and Congressman Oberstar actually visited the Trout Lake portage.

And with the help of myself and Commissioner Forsman pushed a boat over. And I was very disappointed to hear that on the internet, the Boundary Waters are saying that the boat was pushed over with ease because frankly, what's missing in this whole debate on the Boundary Waters is honesty on the part of an awful lot of people. I can tell you that Commissioner Forsman and I were there, and Commissioner Forsman and myself loaded the boat onto the wheels in the water.

And him and I pulled the boat out of the water, not Congressman Vento and Oberstar and Chenoweth. And I can tell you why. Because Commissioner Forsman is an iron range miner, in addition to being a commissioner. And he's in very good physical condition. I'm a 280 pound carpenter that's in very good physical condition. If we had asked those Congress people to get into the water up to their knees and try and pull that boat out of the water, they probably still today would be floundering in the water trying to get it out because they could not have physically done it.

So for anybody to put something on the internet and say that these Congress people pushed this boat over with ease, is being very dishonest about what happened that day on that field trip. And that is what has been so disappointing. And I listen to this and I hear Ms. Raum and with all due respect, Becky, to say that the Grams, Oberstar bill is going to add motors to the Boundary Waters is just not true.

There are 18 lakes in the Boundary Waters that currently have motors on them out of 1,100. This bill does not add motors to one single lake. What we're talking about here is trying to make it easier for people to get their motor to a lake where they can already use it. There is nothing complicated about this whole issue. And if people would just be a little bit more honest about their characterization of what the bill is really trying to do, the public wouldn't be so confused by what they're hearing.

PERRY FENELEY: OK. Thanks very much for calling.

TOM BOCK: Thank you.

PERRY FENELEY: Yeah Ms. Raum, go ahead.

BECKY RAUM: Tom, you must not have the bill. But the bill does actually terminate the phase out of motors on Seagull. Seagull Lake is supposed to go motor-free over much of it in 1999, which will drop the motorized area of the wilderness down to about 21%. So it does add motors. Changes the '78 law so that after 1999, we will have greater number of motors in the wilderness than we're supposed to have. What I said about the portages is that the trucks facilitate big boats and motors.

And that is what Congress intended in 1978 to discourage. They appropriated over $1 million that went to the wilderness edge businesses to help businesses make the transformation from large boats and motors to small boats and motors and square stern canoes. So that eventually the impact of these incompatible uses in the wilderness would be lessened. So that's the point that I was trying to make with respect to the truck portages.

There will be a real impact immediately if you put trucks back on the wilderness. But I think it's even more important to understand what's going on here. Although we're debating Seagull Lake and we're debating the truck portages, I think it's important to recognize that this is if successful, it would be the first time in the history of America that a wilderness area has been degraded. And it is the first step at further degradation of this wilderness area and other wilderness areas. If our standard in the wilderness is we have to make it easy for large motorized vehicles to get in, we will have no wilderness.

PERRY FENELEY: Well, let's bring our next caller. Lydia from Minneapolis, you're next. Go ahead.

LYDIA: Hi. Thanks again for covering this issue. This is pretty much directed at Commissioner Forsman.

MIKE FORSMAN: Forsman.

LYDIA: OK I'm sorry.

MIKE FORSMAN: Sure.

LYDIA: You've a number of times talked about fairness. And I think what continues to distress me about the whole Boundary Waters controversy about motorized boats or vehicles is that, frankly, if you've already got the majority of the lakes in the state that are OK for fishermen and boats, and my understanding is it's roughly like 95% of the lakes are open for that. I'm sorry, but fundamental fairness would decree not only for wilderness protection, but for those of us who don't want to be around motors, there's someplace we can go.

I just don't think it's fundamentally fair at all, from a people standpoint, that motors are 100% everywhere. And I'm disabled. My feeling in the matter is I use whatever I need to do what I want to do, and I accept that may mean there's some limitations of where I can go. But wilderness is wilderness. I don't know if you've ever gone to any of our national parks. Try Yosemite and you can't escape RV, TV motorcycles. It's horrible. I'm a city person that wants to get to a beautiful place like the Boundary Waters and have some peace.

PERRY FENELEY: OK Thanks for the call, Lydia.

MIKE FORSMAN: Lydia, and I guess I have to agree that the one thing that I want to see is I don't want to see-- I think that there should be a spot where people can go and they can enjoy the wilderness without having boats and motors around. And there is no change to that. I mean, as Representative Bach says, there's over 1,100 lakes in the Boundary Waters.

We're talking about 18 lakes that by law have motors on them. This is not going to change. And they're 25 horse motor. I guess to Becky, 25 horses is a big, big boat. And a 16-foot boat is a big, big boat. But your father had-- I was supposed to be respectful. So anyway, the boats that Bill Raum ran up there were much, much larger. Maybe that's what you're thinking of, Becky. But at any rate, these boats are on lakes that are already in there.

There is no increase in the use of boat motors there. Please again, remember there are quotas. The motorized use has decreased over the years and it will continue to decrease. What it is is access. And it's access by local people that work for a living. And then when they want to go out and fish that lake and come back in the same day, they want to get between those two motorized lakes that they've used for years. And that was part of the compromise by Senator Hubert Humphrey, one of our late great senators who promised that those things would be up.

But thanks to a number of people that have changed and told complete got people riled up-- I truly believe that this whole controversy is to see how much money we can put into the coffers of the environmental groups. It does not have anything to do with fairness or what is correct. And as far as the bills that are in front of us, the one that comes out of mediation doesn't even address nearly the things that were agreed to and stabled in mediation.

The 20,000 acres, 21,000 acres, they are supposed to be non-controversial lands. I've got the map in front of me. There are hardly what you would call non-controversial land. When they take people's hunting cabins, they cut across our echo trail that is a county road. And they do a number of other things that are very degrading to our society up in the northern part of the state. I don't think anybody would want us to come down and take and clear the houses out in the Twin Cities area and say, hey, we're going to put a national park here.

We're going to get rid of your roads and stuff like that. We aren't looking to do that. But for some reason, people want to do that in our area. And I guess I'm really slighted by it, and it really hurts me as I watch our tax base erode because of this type of wilderness designation on everything that we own or we have in the northern part of the state. The reason we've got nice stuff is because we've taken good care of it over the years. We don't have polluted lakes because we take care of it, because we care about it. We are the stewards.

PERRY FENELEY: All right, Ms Raum, short response. We can try to get one more call in before we wind up the program.

BECKY RAUM: OK. I wanted to respond to the desires of locals to fish. And I think what Mike didn't show the subcommittee last weekend is what really happens up there. I went out to trout lake the week before the subcommittee made its visit. And as I was standing there on the portage, a guy came up. Three adult men drove up with their motorboat. They had a portage wheel attached to the motorboat, dropped the wheels and push the boat across. Two men did it.

They told me their gear weighed about 400 pounds. I asked the guy who owned the boat if this was his first time into Trout Lake this year. He said it was his 24th visit this year. Last year he went 57 times. He made it across in about 15 minutes. And he never sweated. What we saw last week, Mike-- and you've got to admit-- was 1960s technology.

We had a big boat with 1,000 pounds of gear. It is hard to get that kind of stuff in the woods. But that stuff doesn't belong in the woods. The intent of the law was to reduce the impact, encourage people to go in in smaller boats and make it a better wilderness area, and that goal is being achieved.

PERRY FENELEY: OK, Pam, you're the last caller here. So go ahead.

PAM LESHACK: Hi. My name is Pam Leschack, and I'm president of Northeastern Minnesotans for Wilderness. And I mean, I have a lot of points to make--

PERRY FENELEY: OK, very briefly, though. We'd like to get a response.

PAM LESHACK: First of all, I want to respond to Representative Bach and that the meeting at Greenwood Township last week was not a hearing. It was a rally for a small group of people who oppose wilderness. It was not a hearing. Secondly, I think that anybody who is familiar with Hubert Humphrey's politics and who knew his intent-- and we can question that forever-- can understand and would not use this whole ploy of broken promises because Humphrey always supported wilderness.

I want to emphasize that 98% of the whole state is open to jet skis, jet boats, pontoons, motors of any size. 99% of the whole United States is open to that. I have a boat and motor, a 30 horse motor, and I can go wherever I want to. And there's a time and place for everything. And wilderness is not the place for motors. And I just think that 2% of the state of Minnesota is not too much to ask.

PERRY FENELEY: OK. Thanks for the call. And Mike Forsman, we have just a couple of minutes left. So I'll give you a chance here to respond and then we'll get a response from Ms Raum. We'll have to wind things up.

MIKE FORSMAN: Just real quick. The Greenwood hearing was basically-- at 2 o'clock there were 172 cars there. If you figure 2 and 1/2 people per car, that's roughly-- the NPR said that there were several dozen. Well I guess 40 would be several. But I don't call it a handful of people. There were 20 wilderness supporters such as Becky there as far as I'm concerned on that. One of the things that came out, my daughter, of course, is a former-- the daughter that's teaching over in Kenya-- she was a former MPIRG staff person.

So she's on the mailing list for Northeastern Minnesota's for Wilderness. It's a strange thing. But the address-- the mailing address is a Minneapolis address. Or have you changed that yet, Becky? I'm not sure. But at any rate, that Minneapolis address for Northeastern Minnesota, that's a long ways from the Twin Cities is Northeastern Minnesota. So as far as I'm concerned, this all comes out of the same groups. The same groups that basically have tried to shove this wilderness down the throats of the people. And it's a created wilderness. It's a created wilderness.

PERRY FENELEY: Thanks, Mike. And Ms. Raum, your final in 30 seconds or so.

BECKY RAUM: Yes. Well, Mike, we fundamentally disagree. This is a national wilderness area. It's loved and used by people all around the country. You are blessed by having it in your backyard. But the National interest is that we protect this area as Canoe, Country Wilderness. We do not degrade it for any interest, including local interest that favors increased motorization.

PERRY FENELEY: All right. Well, thanks to both of you today for joining us today in this discussion of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. Mike Forsman in Duluth, Saint Louis County Commissioner, former mayor of Ely. Thanks so much for joining us today from Duluth.

MIKE FORSMAN: Thank you. Thank you very much.

PERRY FENELEY: Also Thanks to you, Becky Raum, vice president of the Friends of the Boundary Waters Wilderness. A group that opposes increasing motors in the BWCA. Also a member of the governing council of The National Wilderness Society. Thanks so much for joining us today.

BECKY RAUM: You're welcome.

PERRY FENELEY: And to all of you who called in with your questions and comments, thanks to you as well. It's now 5 and 1/2 minutes before 12:00 noon.

RAY SUAREZ: I'm Ray Suarez. Almost 2 million Cambodians died during Pol Pot's reign. Now he's been sentenced to life. But does that mean the end of political bloodshed?

SPEAKER 1: This is not the end of that violence. This is not the end of the Khmer Rouge strain. We're going to see a continuation of this.

RAY SUAREZ: The future of Cambodia. Plus, a look at the growth of gated communities all coming up on the next talk of the nation from NPR News.

PERRY FENELEY: Listen for our talk of the nation this afternoon at 1 o'clock on Minnesota Public Radio.

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SPEAKER 2: And here is the Writer's Almanac for Thursday. It's the 31st of July, 1997. It's the feast day of Saint Ignatius of Loyola. The 50th Annual Maine Lobster festival begins today in Rockland, Maine. Tons of steamed lobsters served over the next four days. The annual Melville Marathon begins today in Mystic, Connecticut, a two-day marathon reading of all 135 chapters of Moby Dick on the deck of the old wooden whaling ship, Charles W. Morgan.

The 14th Annual meet on the Mississippi Barbecue Contest starts today in Caruthersville, Missouri. There will be barbecue cook offs and a catfish cooking contest. The Wisconsin State Fair opens today in Milwaukee and runs for 11 days. And in San Antonio, the Texas Folklife Festival begins today. It's the birthday in Norwalk, Connecticut, 1928, of jazz pianist, Horus Silver, who founded along with drummer Art Blakey, The Jazz Messengers, a hard bop group.

It's the birthday of Italian writer and scientist Primo Levi, born 1919 in Turin, Italy. He was working for the Italian resistance in 1943 when he was captured and sent to Auschwitz. He wrote Survival in Auschwitz in 1947, Philip Roth described Primo Levi as this slightly built, dutiful, unassuming chemist who set out systematically to remember the German hell on earth, steadfastly to think it through and then to render it comprehensible in lucid, unpretentious prose.

It's the birthday in Le Havre, France of sculptor, painter, printmaker, Jean Dubuffet. It's the birthday in 1816, in Virginia of General George Henry Thomas, who, though he was born in the south, fought on the union side and was a hero in the Battle of Chickamauga in Northwestern Georgia, 1863. Prevented the Confederate Army from gaining a great victory. He got the nickname Rock of Chickamauga on that day.

And it was on this day in 1703, The English novelist, Daniel Defoe was made to stand in the pillory in public. A public humiliation for a satiric book he had written called, The Shortest Way with Dissenters, which offended the Tory Government and the High Church. He recovered from this shame, however, and a few years later wrote The Adventures of Robinson Crusoe. Here's a poem for today by Raymond Carver entitled, Waiting.

Left off the highway and down the hill at the bottom, hang another left. Keep bearing left. The road will make a y, left again. There's a creek on the left. Keep going. Just before the road ends, there will be another road. Take it and no other. Otherwise your life will be ruined forever. There's a log house with a shake roof on the left. It's not that house. It's the next house. Just over a rise.

The house where trees are laden with fruit, where flocks, forsythia and marigold grow. It's the house where the woman stands in the doorway wearing sun in her hair. The one who's been waiting all this time, the woman who loves you. The one who can say, what's kept you?

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A poem by Raymond Carver, Waiting, from his collection, Ultramarine, published by Vintage Books. Used by permission on the Writer's Almanac, Thursday, July 31. Made possible by Cowles Enthusiast Media, publishers of British Heritage and other magazines. Coordinated by Patricia McFadden. Be well. Do good work. And keep in touch.

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PERRY FENELEY: And you can hear the Writer's Almanac every weekday at this time right here on Minnesota Public Radio. Stay with us. We'll check news headlines here in just a moment, and then we'll go off live to the National Press Club in Washington, DC, and hear a discussion today by Health and Human Services Secretary, Donna Shalala. She's expected to talk about health care privacy issues in what is clearly a rapidly changing medical services field.