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KAREN BARTA: Good morning. I'm Karen Barta with news from Minnesota Public Radio. The Grand Forks Herald says miscommunication between the National Weather Service and the US Army Corps of Engineers led to an incorrect flood prediction.

The corps apparently knew six bridges in the cities would cause a higher crest, but the Weather Service did not. The curfew has been lifted for residents in Grand Forks, North Dakota. It's another sign of recovery from the Red River flood. But City Public Information Officer Max Laird says that doesn't mean every part of the city is open.

MAX LAIRD: That simply means that individuals can, in fact, stay in all parts of the city, except those that are specifically underwater, continuing to be inundated with water, and areas where people just flat can't access them.

KAREN BARTA: Federal emergency management officials removed the curfew they put in place. They've also notified residents in both Grand Forks and East Grand Forks, Minnesota, whether or not they can rebuild where they lived before. The statewide testing bill may come up in the House and Senate today. State lawmakers agreed on a compromise plan Friday that would require statewide testing in four grades. Governor Carlson has said he would sign the Bill.

The state forecast, it's going to be windy. Partly cloudy in the southwest. Mostly cloudy with a chance of showers elsewhere. Afternoon thunderstorms possible in the Southeast. Highs from the middle 50s in the North to around 70 in the South.

For the Twin Cities turning mostly cloudy this afternoon with widely scattered showers developing. A thunderstorm is possible with a high near 70. Around the region in Rochester, it's cloudy and 59, partly cloudy and 56 in Duluth, and in the Twin cities, it's sunny and 61. That's news. I'm Karen Barta.

It's 10:06. And today's programming is supported by 3M, who generously matched more than 900 employee contributions to Minnesota Public Radio.

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CHRIS ROBERTS: Today on our Voices of Minnesota interview, we hear two people talk about how hard times affected their lives. Later, we'll hear Giovanna D'Agostino, Mama D, talk about growing up in Minneapolis as the child of Italian immigrants. First, Dr. Stanley Salstrom reflects on his work bringing educational opportunity to rural Minnesota residents.

Stan Salstrom has just ended 12 years as a University of Minnesota Regent. He spent 25 years as head of the University of Minnesota at Crookston. He also farms near Milaca, Minnesota. Salstrom told Minnesota Public Radio's Laura McCallum his values were formed during the Great Depression. He says the effects of the economic collapse and drought during the seconds are nearly unimaginable today.

STAN SALSTROM: Horrible times. As a matter of fact, as I attended high school and grade school, I wondered whether there was any hope for people in rural Minnesota. And that's why I decided to go on into agriculture with the maybe grandiose idea that someway, I could help raise the living standard in greater Minnesota. To help the people so that the effects of the terrible drought and of the depression might be alleviated.

Sounds grandiose now, but I felt so strongly about the terribly difficult times when farmers were losing their farms, when their rains didn't come, when prices were so low that it didn't pay to sell livestock. It was just very, very difficult. And as a matter of fact, I wondered at the time whether we might not go Communist.

People were so desperate. But then came along a guy named Franklin Roosevelt. And in 19-- I suppose --31, '32, I heard those first great words, all we have to fear is fear itself. And we began the rebuilding project under President Roosevelt that made a great difference.

LAURA MCCALLUM: Well, did your family suffer personally through the farm crisis? Did your family farm suffer?

STAN SALSTROM: Yes, very much so. I remember my parents debating whether they should let the farm go back when it was worth far less than they owed on it, or whether they should try to hang on. And the great feelings of disappointment. It's a terrible thing. And as a matter of fact, they were so careful about any debt henceforth.

Because my father had been in World War one veteran and had purchased land at inflated prices. Only to find by 29, it was worth far less and they still owed on it. And that's how I happened to go to Onamia High School, because they moved and rented near Onamia for four years during my high school years. And then my father repurchased a farm at reasonable prices and was a successful farmer.

LAURA MCCALLUM: Well, now, in growing up as a farm kid, what inspired you to go on ultimately to get your doctorate?

STAN SALSTROM: Well, first of all, as I said, I was deeply interested in improving conditions for the farmer. And when I look at those days, my wonderful mother made great meals. We ate like kings in spite of the terrible conditions. We never had any money. But most farm products in those days, most of our food was fiber raised right there on the farm. And then my concern for working with agricultural education. My first degree was in agriculture and education at the University of Minnesota. And then four years of active duty in World War II.

And as I indicated to you, then a letter from the superintendent of Malacca to me in Europe right after the War asking if I would be interested in coming back to develop the GI Bill for farmers for that area. Many veterans returning that wanted to farm, and they used the GI Bill to get the necessary education and to move into farming instead of going to a college, which you could do with the GI Bill as well. One of the greatest bills that this country ever passed led to such an educated citizenry at all levels marvelous for the returning veterans of World War II.

LAURA MCCALLUM: I remember when we last talked, I was asking you about Saint Cloud State's 125th anniversary, and I'm gathering this was from your experience working with educators across the state. You were talking about how there used to be a little school every few miles because of how agricultural the state was. And can you talk about that a little bit?

STAN SALSTROM: Yes. And during the '50s, the law was passed raising the standards for elementary school teachers to a bachelor's degree. And so from my office, we developed a number of courses throughout Central Minnesota, from Wilmer to Brainerd to Cambridge to Anoka, to help elementary teachers complete their work for a baccalaureate.

And so I got well-acquainted with the schools and worked closely with superintendents throughout basically all of Central Minnesota. And so I'd get into schools like Tintah and Clinton and Chokio and Alberta that now are united with other districts, or Cyrus, Minnesota. And it's just been a treasure. I have enjoyed that career of some 55 years now in education just immensely because you're dealing with dedicated people concerned with providing quality education for those students from throughout the area.

LAURA MCCALLUM: It must be overwhelming to consider how much the state's educational system has changed though in those 55 years.

STAN SALSTROM: Unbelievable. The changes that have taken place and more rapidly in recent years. And it must change, and it must change more as we adapt to the new technology in education and to distance education and all of the other opportunities that students have today.

My concern is, as we make those changes and provide even better opportunities for greater Minnesota, that we not lose the great qualities of greater Minnesota of caring for each other-- the neighborliness that has been a part of Minnesota, Minnesota nice, if you wish to call it that. In my neighborhood where I was raised as a child, you were measured by how well you served others. Maybe because there wasn't any money available.

The amount of money you made was not a factor. It's how you related to the community. How you served your neighbors and your friends and strangers that came by was the true measure of a person. And I'm pleased that I was a part of that.

And I hope we can continue to engender in every young person growing up that feeling of concern in our democracy for others. And the need to be a participant in society of every student. So they recognize their responsibilities in a free society to be an active part of the neighborhood, of the area, of the state, of the nation if our democracy is to survive.

LAURA MCCALLUM: Do you ever sense we're losing that?

STAN SALSTROM: I worry about it. That the further we get from our colonial period, the less we think about the critical importance of voting, the critical importance of studying the issues so we know how we're voting, and the critical importance of being participants are running for school boards, of being a part of the legislature, being a part of-- being a county commissioner, of recognizing the responsibilities of citizenship in a democracy to be a part of the whole, which is crucial.

And the need then, as Jefferson espoused it a long time ago, for everyone to have an opportunity for education to the level of which they're capable so that they can make the greatest contribution to society possible.

LAURA MCCALLUM: Well, let's continue on your journey through Minnesota's higher education system. We haven't talked about your experience at the University of Minnesota, Crookston.

STAN SALSTROM: What a wonderful opportunity that was. In 1965, the legislature passed a bill changing the role of the Crookston campus of the University of Minnesota from that of an agricultural high school to a college. And because I had worked closely with the University all these years in my role as an external relations for 10 years here at Saint Cloud, I'd gotten to know their people well.

And of course, from my previous work there as an educator in ag ed. I'd continued those contacts. And so I was invited by President Wilson to be the person who would go to Crookston and make that-- lead that transition from a high school of ag to a college.

I look back on that period of 25 years that we lived in Crookston as, again, a wonderful, marvelous experience in developing a new institution with a new philosophy. Compared to the other higher education institutions of the state. Because we were developing a college-- we called it a technical college, is now in its four year state. It's called polytech, but the concept being of providing an excellent general education for the students who matriculated there.

But in addition to that, the necessary educational courses that would prepare them for work. And with that, one quarter of internship during their time at the college where they would go out and actually practice in the field for which they were preparing, whether it was hotel, restaurant management, or agriculture, or ag business, or business, or home economics, whatever their field might be. They spent one quarter out on the job so they would know what they'd be doing.

LAURA MCCALLUM: What led you to leave Crookston?

STAN SALSTROM: The opportunity to become a Regent. And as a matter of fact, I was elected to the Board of Regents before I retired as chancellor.

LAURA MCCALLUM: Have the Regents themselves changed or the Office of Regent changed in the time you've been on it?

STAN SALSTROM: The Office of Regent has changed tremendously. In the years gone by, the board of Regents made their decisions in their Ivory Tower, I would guess you'd call it that. In more recent years, as you know from the press and from all of the different media, the board actions have been closely watched, and rightly so.

They are a public organization elected by the legislature to govern the University. And I think the scrutiny of the press has been very important. I would suggest, unfortunately, that so often, the press focuses on the negative and not on the great positive changes that have taken place at the U.

I'm very proud of the actions of the board over these 12 years that I've been a member in moving the University forward. In a real sense, we're leading the nation in many of the changes that have taken place. Now you can register from your computer and your home at the University. No more long lines. Classes are much smaller on the Minneapolis campus, and a much higher percentage of the professors are teaching the freshman classes. We have the brightest freshman class in history this year at the University of Minnesota.

So many, many great changes. For instance, at Crookston, every student has a laptop computer so that they become familiar with the way business and agriculture and the hospitality industry operates today. Remarkable changes and remarkably more scrutiny of the actions of the board than ever before.

The open meeting laws that have come into being, I think, are very worthwhile. It makes it more difficult in hiring someone like a football coach or a president. But I think in the main, they serve the people well so that they know what is going on.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Dr. Stanley Salstrom. He retired this spring after 12 years as a University of Minnesota Regent, and he was chancellor of the University of Minnesota at Crookston for 25 years. Salstrom talked with Minnesota Public Radio's Laura McCallum. You're listening to our voices of Minnesota interview on Midmorning. Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the Mental Health Association of Minnesota during May, mental health month, honoring people with mental illness and their contributions to society.

A brief weather update. Windy conditions throughout the state today. Partly cloudy in the southwest. Mostly cloudy with a chance of showers. Elsewhere afternoon thunderstorms are possible in the Southeast. Highs from the mid 50s in the North to around 70 in the South. Clearing tonight though, lows from the mid 20s in the North to around 40 the South, and partly to mostly sunny skies will prevail throughout the region on Tuesday. Highs tomorrow in the 60s to around 70 degrees.

Times were hard even after the depression, and her family needed money. So Giovanna D'Agostino lied about her age and got a job catching shoplifters at the local dime store. Years later, Mama D gained Fame for her Italian restaurant in Minneapolis's Dinkytown neighborhood, and for her annual event where thousands of people get a free meal. Mama D is mostly retired, but every Wednesday, she greets diners at her Arden Hills restaurant. That's where she talked with Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson. Mama D says there was a lot of discrimination directed at immigrants and their children.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: I always felt that nobody liked me because my mother dressed me Italian style-- long hair, long dresses, kids had short hair, short dresses. So when I was in class, kids would make fun of me because they had short hair and short dresses, and you'd think I'd come from outer space or something.

And I used to say, why did you make me Italian? Why didn't you make me something else? They would like me better if I was something else. But then as I grew older, I was glad I did go through those things because then I could feel like the hippies when they had the long hair and the hippie clothes and people were making fun of them, I stuck up for them.

DAN OLSON: I suppose growing up after the Depression as a teenager, the country had gone through the Depression, it must have been a dramatic change.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Well, it was because then I was even work part time and making some money then. But--

DAN OLSON: What were you doing?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Well, I worked at a dime store on East Hennepin, and I used to be a store detective. I used to be able to pick people that stole things.

DAN OLSON: You were the detective?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: I was store detective.

DAN OLSON: And you had an episode where a shoplifter was going to bite the manager.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Our manager was only about 5' 3". And after I brought him in-- and in those days, you couldn't grab them in the store. You had to wait till they got outside. So I brought him in, and the manager was talking. All of a sudden, he went behind him and he was going to bite him on the neck. I came from behind and threw him off. And I called the police a couple of blocks away, and they came back, and they called me Two-Ton Tony. But I had a lot of experience with catching them. I could sense their stealing before they even did it for some reason.

DAN OLSON: The dime store work as a first job for a young person, you were what, a teenager, early 20s?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: I said I was 18, but I was only 15. It was working during the summer. [LAUGHS] I lied.

DAN OLSON: You needed the work.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: That's right.

DAN OLSON: And among your many other accomplishments, when you were a young woman, you were a tennis champion.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: I was. Can you believe it?

DAN OLSON: That's wonderful.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: A young doctor I was going with taught me how to play. And so when I would go on the courts, they'd look at me like, oh, what does she know? So I'd clean house on them. After that, I'd get their respect.

DAN OLSON: There weren't many women playing tennis?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Not too many, no. But I loved it. Oh.

DAN OLSON: And you went to the Margaret Barry Settlement House.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Right. She was a wonderful woman. She taught the kids in that neighborhood religion. She made them learn crafts and different things. She was a very sweet lady.

DAN OLSON: She was a local woman then--

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Yes.

DAN OLSON: --who ran this service?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: And she had love for the people that were there that were immigrants.

DAN OLSON: Settlement houses were running and teaching.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: It wasn't for the settlement houses, we wouldn't even know each other. She'd get the kids together. She taught cooking classes and everything. She was a great lady. I was have a lot of respect and admire her greatly for all the work she did for us.

DAN OLSON: When did you get your start in the restaurant, in the food business.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Well, when I got married and I was offered a job at a big restaurant in Chicago-- they served 600 people, and they made me manager. Well, the help called me the warden of the place because I made sure that the food was served right to customers. I made sure that they all did their jobs, and I was real strict with them. And so he liked me so.

Well, then my son was going to Saint Thomas College. And he said, Ma, with dad dead, you can't send me to college. We'll open a restaurant or a sandwich shop. I said, OK. So I came here, and he left me for three weeks. Now, the menu was 4 by 6. That's all it was, a sandwich shop.

Well, when he came back, I had two pages 8 by 10. You'd come in and you'd say, mama, don't you make lasagna? Come tomorrow. Mama, don't you make fettuccine alfredo? Come tomorrow. So by the time I got back, I had two pages, 8 by 10. He almost had 10/5. He was going to throw me out.

DAN OLSON: Where was this first shop?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: In Dinkytown.

DAN OLSON: At the location there on?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: --location there. But guess what, I forgot to put one recipe in that Italian salad that I invented. A man came in one day and he said, I want a salad. I'm sick of selling this salad and that salad. I want something different. I said, oh, I'll take care of it. I go in there, and I thought, dear God, me and my big mouth. And you think the fiddler on the roof talks to God, so do I. Go help. What am I going to do?

Well, I had put the salad, put seasoning. In front of me was hot roast beef au jus. Well, nobody ever thought of putting hot stuff on a salad. I put it on. Next to it was Italian sausage, I put that on. Put ham and cheese. Then I gar-- I put my oil and vinegar, and I garnished it with tomato, and I put sprinkled cheese on it. He ate two bowls. And every day, someone would come in, I want a salad like Regis got. I had to think, what did I put in it? But that was fine till my son came back. He was mad in heck at two pages.

DAN OLSON: Right. He thought that was too much?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Yeah. He says, are you crazy? Who's going to do all this cooking, blah, blah, blah? And I said, oh, be quiet. That's all these kids at the University get-- hot dogs, hamburgers, the same old baloney. It's time they get some home cooked food. But guess who taught me to cook, the neighbors in Chicago. It was the Second World War, and I used to make packages for their sons overseas. And they said, the reason they wanted me to do it was because they always got my package.

So I'd say, what are you making today? Oh, I'm making lasagna. Oh, how do you make yours? I didn't even know who lasagna was. Then the next day, I'd go to someplace else. What are you making? I'm making Veal Parmesan. Oh, how do you make yours? So I went through the whole neighborhood, and they were from all different parts of Italy. So I learned to cook of all different parts, Northern and Southern. But I could never say no to anybody.

DAN OLSON: In fact, I think if I recall the stories, on some holidays, maybe it was Thanksgiving, you'd open your restaurant.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: No, I opened it on March 19th, Saint Joseph's day. I promise God when my husband was dying that I would do it. And this was my second year. I had it at Saint Lawrence church at Southeast. And people still come from way back, even people off the streets. One of them said, Mama, will you come and pray to Saint Joseph with me? I have a statue and an altar fixed. And we went there and we prayed. Then at the end, I always worried I don't have enough food-- never this, this, that. I had so much food I was giving people food to take home. My son goes crazy with--

DAN OLSON: We still have a huge immigrant population in the United states, probably as big as when your parents came over. Is there a change in attitude towards immigrants, do you think?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Yes, there is.

DAN OLSON: For the better?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: No. I was at the State Capitol a couple of weeks ago, and they were saying how they're taking food stamps from the children and this and that and the other. And I said, why is it legislature passes laws to spend our money for foolish things. But then when somebody is hungry, it's our Christian duty to feed them, no matter who they are, and not to take the stuff away from them. It's our duty to pick them up, because we're only passing through life once. And only thing that goes with us when we die is that kind word, thought, or deed that we've had for someone, nothing else.

DAN OLSON: Did you get any reaction from lawmakers?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: Oh, you should have seen. They even put my picture in the paper. And this one man says, boy, you speak shortly, but you bring everything to the point. And I know because I was an immigrant child. I had holes in my shoes and I used to have to put cardboard on them.

And then you walk to school because you didn't have buses like kids have today. And some of these immigrants have been here a long, long time. And they're old, and they need help. And why is it that we have to turn down the poor but we give it to some of these people that kill people and everything? We feed them all the time in the prisons and everything.

DAN OLSON: Your religion is a big part of your life. I think you have the rosary here. You're sitting with the rosary.

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: I saved 40, 50 a day. People see me, I forget I got it. And they say, Mama, pray for me. The next is yours.

DAN OLSON: Has your religion ever let you down?

GIOVANNA D'AGOSTINO: No. Only once, when my husband was dying and I was mad at God. So I went to church today after the funeral of my husband, and I was in church alone in Chicago. And as I walked in, I saw hundreds of white ribbons with jewels. And I thought, I'm hallucinating. I've come to this church all my life. I've never seen anything like this. And looked and looked, and they were there.

Then I started talking to God out loud. Good thing I was alone or they'd brought me to the crazy house. And I was asking him, why me? Am that bad? I said, you know I've always loved you. I've tried to do the right thing. But why is it that I have to suffer all these things? First you take my sons eye, then I got hit by three cars, and now you took my husband. And I'm crying and crying and crying.

I don't know how long I was there, about a half hour or so. I heard a voice as clear as you hear my voice say, would you like your husband back to suffer more or would you like to know he's at peace? Look, look. Those two looks came at me. I looked, nothing, I didn't see nothing. Then after 15, 20 minutes, I came to and I said, please, God, forgive me. I promise you, no matter what tribulations you send me, I will accept. Because your will be done, not mine.

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CHRIS ROBERTS: Giovanna D'Agostino, Mama D, talking with Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson. Our Voices of Minnesota interviews are heard nearly every Monday as part of mid-morning.

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CHRIS ROBERTS: You're listening to Midmorning on Minnesota Public Radio. Good morning. I'm Chris Roberts, sitting in for Paula Schroeder. Most baby boomers who hearken back to their school days remember walking home from school for lunch, phys Ed and music classes once or twice a week, and of course, art class.

Today, most students don't take arts classes for granted at all. In fact, in some areas of Minnesota, they're lucky if there is any arts curriculum. Arts education has been severely eroded by budget cuts, staff layoffs, and school days that are jam packed with activity. Is this a bad thing?

Is arts curriculum disappearing from our education system? Kathleen Maloney joins us in the studio this morning. She's the executive director of the Minnesota Alliance for Arts and Education, an organization devoted to ensuring the arts remain an essential part of the K through 12 education of every Minnesota child.

Kathleen Maloney taught secondary school Art and English, worked as an administrator and teacher at Xenon Dance Company, managed the organization called Intermedia Arts, and is now the new director of the Minnesota Alliance for Arts and Education. Kathleen, thank you very much for joining us.

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Thank you. Nice to be here.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Tell us a little bit about the Minnesota Alliance for Arts in Education. Has it been around a while?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: It's been around for about 24 years, and it's gone through some different versions. In its latest focus, its working more on grassroots advocacy, trying to work with people at a local level and a community level to try to advocate for arts in the schools. And our mission really is to all the arts for all the kids K through 12 public schools.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Do you think there's a crisis now as far as arts in education is concerned?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Well, I think there's a crisis, and I think it's difficult to say-- it's different community to community, state to state. But there's so much emphasis on testing and assessment and all across the nation and in Minnesota that I think what the crisis is, is to make sure that there's recognition of the value of arts at the core and that it belongs there with math and science. And indeed, it can complement and enhance learning in those areas.

CHRIS ROBERTS: How did the arts become expendable?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: [LAUGHS] I think it's hard to say. I think there's so many pressures on school districts to do so many things that when you come down to the school board meeting, when you're going to decide what's the budget for next year, that unless there's significant community support to keep those classes in the school, that it becomes possible to eliminate the general music program or to cut out the high school band and see those things as extracurricular.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Kathleen Maloney is our guest in this second half hour of the second hour of Midmorning today. She is the executive director of the Minnesota Alliance for Arts in Education. And if you have a comment or question about arts curricula around the state, arts in education in Minnesota, call us at 227-6000 in the Twin Cities, 227-6000 in the Twin Cities. Our toll free number is 1-800-242-2828 from anywhere else you're listening to Midmorning. Have there been cutbacks in the arts, in schools everywhere in the state?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Again, I think you can't really say generally because there are some examples where communities have worked together-- parents, teachers, kids, business people, and said, we want this in our schools. And there are some excellent examples of where that's happening and the community has rallied around it. So I don't think you can say generally that that's the case. But I do get phone calls, and this is budget time and planning for next year and the pink slips are being handed out. [LAUGHS]

And I think there have been a few places where there's been a tug and pull between teachers for special needs or teachers for this or that or the other. And when administrators are feeling that they have a lot of pressure and teachers have a lot of pressure to make sure that math and science scores are going up, then they may decide that they want to put their resources into a reading specialist, for instance.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Well, I was curious about some of the reasons that administrators are giving for cutting back the arts. Do they pit art classes against other classes that are deemed more important today? Are they ever pitted against Athletic programs?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Oh, sure. That can happen. And what we try to do is to work with people to get the reasons out there and get the information out there on exactly why that's not the reason to cut arts from the curriculum. I mean, there are studies that show that SAT scores can be improved by studying music. That's old information that's been there from since 1995.

I ran across something that came to me today published in may that preschoolers do better on math when they study music. So there's a lot of information there. And I think it's a matter of interpreting and trying to through all of this information that's there that can be confusing. And that's part of what I see our job is, to try and get that information there so that parents and teachers can make the case.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Apart from making connections between studying the arts and performing well in other areas and the correlation there, what are the ramifications of cutting back arts programs in schools? Does it matter?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: It makes for some very dreary-- [LAUGHS] some very dreary places of learning. I mean, there's-- besides the academic benefits, the cognitive intellectual benefits of studying the arts, there are some things that you just-- it's really difficult to measure in their emotional and their social.

And if you can just try to imagine a school where there isn't an opportunity within the school day for a student to express themselves, to put something down on paper or participate in a play or see a play or somehow get an opportunity to reflect on the world that they're in, that's a very, very, very dreary place.

CHRIS ROBERTS: What about the fact that the arts are multi-million-- well, actually a $1 billion industry in Minnesota. And if we don't cultivate arts audiences, that will be troublesome in the future, I guess, as far as our economy is concerned?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Yeah, I think that's true. I can't cite the dollar amounts for you, but having come from an arts background where I've worked with production and presenting of arts, when I became a parent and went to enroll my child in school, and I realized that I had to make some choices because if I put him in this school, there wouldn't be music.

If I put him in that school, there wouldn't be drama. If I put-- that I had to choose those things. They're not there everywhere. It dawned on me, where are our young artists and where are our appreciators of art, our audiences coming from if we are not perpetuating this legacy in school?

CHRIS ROBERTS: So what is the most powerful argument as far as you're concerned, the one that works when school districts are considering cutting back?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Well, I think you have different arguments for different audiences. For the business community, you talk about cross training the brain and creativity and analytical thinking and how important that is in employees.

When you're talking with a community where they want greater parental involvement, when you have certain kinds of activities at schools, all the parents come out, that's athletics and arts performances and art shows. And so you can use that argument with people that want to increase parental activity. And then with people that are interested in increasing math and reading scores, you can pull out some statistics to show that that indeed can happen.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Kathleen Maloney is our guest Midmorning today. She is the new director of the Minnesota Alliance for Arts in Education. If you have a comment or question for Kathleen Maloney, call us at-- the number in the Twin Cities is 227-6000, 227-6000. Our toll free number from anywhere else you can hear Minnesota Public Radio is 1-800-242-2828.

One of the first things that Governor Carlson said he wanted to fund this session was the arts, and he organized a big state of the art speech at the Children's Museum. I don't know if you were there. Does that have any impact on your work?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Somewhat. There's two ways that arts can get into the curriculum. The Carlson Initiative, the $12 million initiative, that's money that's going to go through the state arts boards and through the regional arts councils. And it will go primarily to artists and arts organizations, and some of it will result in arts education activities, increased residencies, things like that.

But those, to me, are enrichment. They're part of a curriculum, but not all of it. The funding that comes to pay for teachers and training for teachers and specialists in music or visual arts or dance or whatever it is, that comes through the K-12 funding, through the state legislature, the omnibus funding.

And how that results in teaching of art for kids is through what each local district determines they're going to put their money into through the money that comes to the district. So the Carlson Initiative will help add some extra money. And it's things that-- it's not for teachers. It's not for books. It's not for facilities. It's for arts activities that come through arts organizations.

CHRIS ROBERTS: 1-800-242-2828, our toll free number if you have a question or comment for Kathleen Maloney, who is the new director of the Minnesota Alliance for Arts in Education. 227-6000, the number in the Twin Cities to call. And we have a few callers on the line. So we'll go to Steve, who's calling from Princeton. Good morning, Steve.

AUDIENCE: Hi. How are you doing?

CHRIS ROBERTS: All right.

AUDIENCE: I'm an artist, and I got kids in school, and I'm really in favor of lots of art curriculum. But I think there's two things that are working against it. The most insidious seems to be a move afoot at the State Capitol in this state and other states to change public education from something that grounded our kids in a well-rounded liberal arts education-- little reading, writing, arithmetic, art, and music sort of thing as preparation to more education.

It's being changed from that to a system that will turn out kids job ready. Industries complaining that kids don't have the right skills. And I think we're developing a two-track system of private schools and elite public schools in rich neighborhoods that are going to have the well-rounded curriculum, and everybody else is going to get the reading, writing, arithmetic enough to run those CAM/CAD machines in the factories.

The other thing I think we have working against art curriculum in the schools is that myself and my friends, the postmodern artists, have done a lot of things, which maybe not intentionally, but have alienated ourselves from the general public. And oftentimes, the general public feels that a lot of modern art's looking down its nose at them. And that doesn't do us any good in convincing the community that they need to spend more money on arts curriculum in our schools.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Well, that's interesting, Kathleen, do you think there's cutbacks in the arts because people are intimidated by artists and feel like they're snobs?

AUDIENCE: Well, not intimidated just by artists, but the whole NEA thing.

CHRIS ROBERTS: All right. Thank you.

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Again, I don't think you can make a generalization. But I think that I've gotten a little bit around the state and visited some places, and there's an incredible amount of activity and there's a lot of artists, people who are making a living as artists, or really avocational artists within the communities. And I think that sometimes they are isolated from the schools.

And an answer to making sure that a community has a comprehensive k-12 arts curriculum is to make sure that the teachers and the artists are talking to each other and helping each other. And I honestly haven't heard too much about any NEA flaps recently. [LAUGHS] It's been fairly quiet that way. And I don't think that makes a lot of difference to a lot of people. It maybe hits the papers, but I don't find that a lot of people are really affected by that kind of controversy.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Can we say, as a rule, that it's the poor school districts that cut back on the arts?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Not at all.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Does this rule apply, is it a rural Minnesota districts that are cutting back versus Metropolitan ones?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Not at all. I mean, there are some examples of-- there's a little tiny school with 66 students called Pine Point, which is near Ponsford. And it's right at the corner of the White Earth Indian Reservation. They have a comprehensive K through 12 curriculum. They don't have any specialists. They can't afford to have specialists. They're trying to do that.

They're trying to organize to do that. But what they've done is that made sure that all of their teachers have had training in music and in visual art, and they, through their Ojibwe culture, have integrated in all grades, in all subjects, art. And they really see that this has helped their students achieve in all subjects. So it's not just the big cities.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Do you find that for young people, computers compete with the arts?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: No. I mean, I don't think you can not have computers in schools because I think students, like my son, for example, can sit down at any computer and start pushing buttons and he's figured out a number of things. It's part of being literate in this century, but you can use them artistically.

And I've seen some examples of students or schools that have done that really well. And more in Minnesota, they have the second and third grade art classes, the music classes, the visual art classes, and the classroom teachers are collaborating and they're putting together portfolios where in each of those subject areas, the students are using the computers to take photographs, digital photographs, video, and composing music and putting that together as a multimedia piece in the second and the third grade.

CHRIS ROBERTS: How do you feel about the arts in schools and arts curricula in schools? Should there be more of it? Should there be less of it? Call us with your comment or question. Kathleen Maloney is here ready to respond. She's the new director of the Minnesota Alliance for Arts in Education. 1-800-242-2828, the toll free number. 227-6000, the number to call in the Twin Cities. And Jim in Minneapolis, you're next. Good morning.

AUDIENCE: Good morning, Chris. I really enjoy your program, and I support Minnesota Public Radio. And good morning, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Hi.

AUDIENCE: I just wanted to report some good news.

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Good.

AUDIENCE: I'm involved in my neighborhood association area, which is Prospect Park, East River Road Improvement Association. And working with Mercy Homes and a number of other groups forecast, public artworks. We recently received a very generous grant from the Dayton-Hudson corporation for some, I think it's around $70,000, over five years to plan an integrated arts curriculum in the Mercy open school in the Minneapolis Public School system.

So this is really a very piece of good news, I think. They essentially looked at a program that was done in Chicago with Marshall Fields, their store they just acquired, and found that the integrated arts curriculum was a way to reach a lot of kids, even special Ed kids who weren't able to learn through the traditional teaching methods.

And that arts was one vehicle which allowed a language that helped kids learn in all areas. So some of the other groups involved in this, The Aveda Corporation, very generous, and the Cedar-- it's the West Bank Cultural Center.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Cedar Cultural Center, yeah.

AUDIENCE: Yes.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Jim, that is good news. Thank you very much for calling. I guess, Kathleen, we can expect to corporations and foundations to fill in the gaps, but there's one instance where they're planning curricula.

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Right. It all fits together. And I think he touched on a number of points. You can expect curriculum in the schools to exist by itself devoid of connection to the community. So I think he touched on something that's going to-- it's a model for something that works really well in a number of communities. And that's where all parts of the community have gotten together to talk about the value of and to try to improve comprehensively the arts that's available to kids.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Unfortunately, we're running out of time. What is the strategy at this point as far as this legislative session is concerned and how do people get in touch with you if they're interested in strengthening arts curriculum?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: Well, we have a 1-800 number. And if I can pull this out, I'll-- can I give that--

CHRIS ROBERTS: Yeah

KATHLEEN MALONEY: --on the air? That's all right? I got to find it. But we're based in the landmark center. We have a worldwide web page also. It's http://www.winternet.com/tildmaae/. That's the website. And I'm looking for the--

CHRIS ROBERTS: What do you encourage people to do?

KATHLEEN MALONEY: I encourage people to get involved in-- whether they have students in the school or they have friends who have kids who are close to them, who have students in the schools, whether it is that they have as a connection. But to get involved, to find out what committees there are, what task forces there are, what groups there that are organizing around the issue of arts curriculum in the community and specifically K through 12.

And also in your local district or with your local legislators, be sure that you bring that issue to them. There are so many pressures on funding for the schools. Please be sure to remember that arts should be there at the core for a lot of reasons.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Kathleen, Thanks for joining us. Kathleen Maloney is the new director of the Minnesota Alliance for Arts in Education.

[BILL HALEY & HIS COMETS, "SEE YOU LATER, ALLIGATOR"] See you later, alligator

Well, I saw my baby walking with another man today

SPEAKER 1: December 5, 1955, Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat on a Montgomery bus, initiating a series of actions that will transform the fight for civil rights in America.

SPEAKER 2: Witness history in the next episode of Will the Circle Be Unbroken on Public Radio International.

GARY EICHTEN: Coming up at noon today on midday here on Minnesota Public Radio.

CHRIS ROBERTS: It's about seven minutes now before 11:00, and Midday is coming up next with Gary Eichten. So stay tuned. In the Twin Cities this afternoon, turning mostly cloudy. Widely scattered showers developing a thunderstorm is possible, and a high near 70 degrees. Now it's time for Garrison Keillor and the Writer's Almanac.

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GARRISON KEILLOR: And here is the Writer's Almanac for Monday. It's the 5th of May, 1997. Cinco de Mayo, the 5th of May, the great Mexican national holiday celebrating a winning battle in a losing war, the anniversary of the Battle of Puebla in 1862 when the Mexican forces defeated the French invaders.

It's liberation day in the Netherlands, marking the day in 1945 when the country was freed from occupation by Nazi Germany. It's the birthday of a man considered the founder of existentialism, the Danish philosopher Soren Kierkegaard born in Copenhagen on this day in 1813.

In 1818, in Trier, Germany, Karl Marx was born, who was expelled from Germany, from France, from Brussels, settled in London where he lived in poverty, did his work in the British museum, where he wrote Das Kapital with Friedrich Engels and The Communist Manifesto.

It's the anniversary of the premiere of Damn Yankees at the 46th Street theater in New York City 1955 on this day. Actor and writer Michael Palin of Monty Python's Flying Circus born in Sheffield, England 1943 on this day. It's the birthday of a man famous as Ernest Hemingway's biographer, Carlos BAKER, born in Biddeford, Maine, 1909.

One of the inventors of Amos 'n' Andy, comedy writer Freeman Gosden born in Richmond, Virginia, 1899, on this day. As a child, he performed in minstrel shows, did blackface, went to Chicago, met Charles Correll, who would play Andy. And they devised the comedy, white men playing Black men doing Southern Black dialect. It was one of the most popular shows in America for many, many years.

It's the birthday of writer Christopher Morley in Haverford, Pennsylvania, 1890. Author of many novels, including Kitty Foyle. It's the birthday of Chief Bender in Brainerd, Minnesota, 1884, Charles Albert Bender. His father was German. His mother was a Chippewa. He became a great pitcher for the Philadelphia athletics, a member of the Hall of Fame today.

The Battle of the Wilderness, The Civil War, began on this day in 1864. General Grant trying to outmaneuver General Lee and capture Richmond. It's the birthday of electrical engineer Peter Cooper Hewitt in New York City, 1861, who invented the mercury vapor lamp.

And it's the birthday of John Stetson in Orange, New Jersey, 1830. He went out to Colorado during the gold rush, came back and opened a hat factory, making hats based on those he'd seen on the frontier. Here's a poem for today by Wendell Berry entitled "The Vacation."

Once there was a man who filmed his vacation

He went flying down the river in his boat

With his video camera to his eye, making

A moving picture of the moving river

Upon which his sleek boat moved swiftly

Toward the end of his vacation. He showed

His vacation to his camera, which pictured it,

Preserving it forever-- the river, the trees,

The sky, the light, the bow of his rushing boat

Behind which he stood with his camera,

Preserving his vacation even as he was having it

So that after he had had it, he would still

Have it. It would be there. With a flick

Of a switch, there it would be. But he

Would not be in it. He would never be in it.

A poem by Wendell Berry, "The Vacation," from his collection entries published by Pantheon. Used by permission here on the Writer's Almanac Monday, May the 5th, made possible by Cowles Enthusiast Media, publishers of Early American Homes, and the historynet.com, where history lives on the world wide web. Be well, do good work, and keep in touch.

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CHRIS ROBERTS: Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by the Virginia Piper Cancer Institute's Piper Breast Center, part of Abbott Northwestern hospital, providing innovative breast care in a compassionate environment. That's it for Midmorning today. Do join us tomorrow on Midmorning from 10 to 11 o'clock.

Especially, Robert Kuttner will be in the studio to talk about his new book, Everything for Sale, The Virtues and Limits of Markets. He is a columnist for Businessweek and the founding co-editor of The American Prospect. NPR listeners will also know him as a regular commentator on All Things Considered. That's Robert Kuttner on Midmorning tomorrow. Paula Schroeder and Chris Farrell will be co-hosting.

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JOHN GORDON: Pirate software in Hong Kong, Saddam Hussein on the web, and Kasparov versus Deep Blue. Those stories and more on the next future tense. I'm John Gordon. You can hear future tense in one half hour on Minnesota Public Radio, K-N-O-W FM, 91.1.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Mostly cloudy and 62 degrees at K-N-O-W FM, 91.1, Minneapolis Saint Paul. Twin cities weather for this afternoon-- windy, becoming mostly cloudy, widely scattered showers, possibly a thunderstorm. A high between 65 and 70.